1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: What if the secret to becoming an exceptional leader lies 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: in embracing radical Canada. I first came across Kim Scott's 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: international best selling book Radical Canda several years ago, and 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: I know many leaders who swear by her approach for 5 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: giving and receiving feedback. So I reached out to Kim 6 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: to come on how I work and teach me all 7 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: about the ins and outs of how to be better 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: at feedback. Kim has led teams in companies like Google 9 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: and YouTube, as well as being a CEO coach at 10 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: Dropbox and Twitter, not to mention being on faculty at 11 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: Apple University. If you have ever struggled with giving or 12 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: receiving feedback, then I guarantee this episode will help you 13 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: master the art of radical Canada and transform the way 14 00:00:52,960 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: you communicate. My name is doctor Ama at the invert 15 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist and founder of behavior change consultancy Inventium, 16 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: and this is how I work, a show about how 17 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: to help you get so much more out of the 18 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 1: hours in your day. 19 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 2: Now. 20 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: Unless you have been living under a management rock, you 21 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: have probably heard of the term radical candor. It's the 22 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: style of feedback giving that revolutionized how people in tech 23 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: companies give each other feedback. But in case you haven't 24 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: heard of radical candor, let's start with a quick recap 25 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: with Kim Scott, the woman behind the framework. 26 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 2: Radical candor is what happens when you care personally and 27 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 2: challenged directly at the same time, also known as compassionate candor. 28 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 2: So if you think about radical candor in terms of 29 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 2: a two by two framework, you ready, I'm going to 30 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 2: lay it on you. Let's go okay. So, on the 31 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 2: vertical axis is care personally. On the horizontal axis is 32 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 2: challenged directly, and when you do both at the same time, 33 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 2: that is radical candor. But when you challenge directly but 34 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 2: you forget to show that you care personally, as we 35 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 2: all are bound to do from time to time, that 36 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: is obnoxious aggression. Sometimes people confuse radical candor and obnoxious aggression, 37 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 2: but they're two very different things. Obnoxious aggression is bad. 38 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 2: It's bad because it hurts people. It's bad because it's inefficient. 39 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 2: If I'm a jerk to you, then you sort of 40 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 2: go into fight or flight mode and then you literally 41 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 2: cannot hear what I'm saying, so I'm wasting my breath. 42 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 2: But it's also bad for another reason. For me, at least, 43 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 2: when I realize I've been a jerk, it's not my 44 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 2: instinct to go the right way on care personally. Instead, 45 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 2: I go the wrong way on challenge directly, and then 46 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: I wind out in the worst place of all manipulative insincerity. 47 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 2: So noxious aggression is front stabbing, manipulative insincerity is backstabbing. 48 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 2: It's where passive aggressive behavior, political behavior, all of the 49 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 2: stuff that erodes trust most quickly creeps in. However, although 50 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: it is fun to tell stories about obnoxious aggression and 51 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 2: ruin a sympathy, these are not the mistakes most of 52 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 2: us make most of the time. Most of us make 53 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 2: most of our mistakes in this last upper left hand quadrant, 54 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 2: where we do remember to show that we care personally, 55 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: but we're so worried about not hurting someone's feelings or 56 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 2: offending them that we failed to tell them something they'd 57 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 2: be better off knowing in the long run. And that 58 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 2: is what I call ruin a sympathy. So that's what 59 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 2: radical canner is and what it is not. 60 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,839 Speaker 1: I definitely struggle in that upper left quadrant. I could 61 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: definitely relate to that. 62 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 2: I wonder because what do people. 63 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: Find hardest about applying radical canda in their role as 64 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: a leader. 65 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 2: You know, I think it's a little bit like diet 66 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 2: and exercise. Actually, we kind of everybody knows we should 67 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 2: be you know, we should be eating well, we should 68 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 2: be getting enough exercise or sleep. I think we all 69 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 2: know we how to do it, but it's hard. Behavior 70 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 2: change is really hard, and so I think a big 71 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 2: part of it is just building the habit of radical candor, 72 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 2: and you'll know that you've succeeded when it's a little 73 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 2: bit like brushing your teeth. You know, you feel gross 74 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: if you don't do it. Think it shouldn't be like 75 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 2: a root canal, should be more like brushing your teeth. 76 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: How did you manage to make it hippitchual in your 77 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: own work life? 78 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 2: I learned through the School of Hard Knocks. I got 79 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 2: it wrong over and over and over again. And I 80 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: think one of the things that helped me more than 81 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: anything else was telling stories first to myself and labeling them, 82 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 2: and then writing them in the book, and then telling 83 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 2: them when I do talks and workshops or talk on 84 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 2: podcasts about when I get it wrong. So I have 85 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: this ruinous empathy story that I call my bob story, 86 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,559 Speaker 2: and for me, it just summarizes all of what's wrong 87 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: with ruinous empathy. And then when I'm tempted not to 88 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 2: say the thing that I know I need to say, 89 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 2: I think about that Bob story, and it reminds me 90 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: that it's actually kinder to say it in the long run, 91 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 2: because I think that's also it feels mean to say 92 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 2: the thing, but it's actually much kinder in the long run. 93 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: I love the idea of having stories to remind yourself 94 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: of why to push yourself into that radical Canda quadrant. 95 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: You want to hear the Bob story. I would love 96 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 2: to this. This is really what helped me more than 97 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 2: anything else, because I also struggle with ruinous empathy, and 98 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 2: if I'm honest with myself, there's always a dose of 99 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 2: manipulative and sincerity in my ruin of empathy. So at 100 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 2: one point in my career, and this is really one 101 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 2: of the more painful moments in my career, I had 102 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 2: hired this guy and we'll call him Bob, and I 103 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: liked Bob a lot. He was smart, he was charming, 104 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: he was funny. He would do stuff like we're at 105 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 2: a manager off site, playing one of those endless get 106 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 2: to know you games, and everybody's getting more and more 107 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 2: stressed out because there's tons of work and people kind 108 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 2: of are ready to get back to work. And Bob 109 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 2: is a guy who has the courage to raise his 110 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 2: hand and to say, you know, I can tell everybody's 111 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 2: getting stressed out, and I've got an idea. It'll help 112 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 2: us get to know each other and it'll be really fast. 113 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 2: Whatever his idea was, if it was really fast, we 114 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: were all down with it. So Bob says, let's just 115 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 2: go around the table and confess what candy our parents 116 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 2: used when potty training us. Really weird, but really fast. 117 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 2: Weirder yet we all remembered. And then for the next 118 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 2: ten months, every time there was a tense moment and 119 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 2: a meeting, Bob would pull out just the right piece 120 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 2: of candy for the right person at the right moment. 121 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 2: So Bob is quirky but very lovable. He brought a 122 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,679 Speaker 2: little levity to the office. Everybody loved working with Bob. 123 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 2: It was just one problem with Bob. He was doing 124 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 2: terrible work. I couldn't understand what was going on because 125 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: he had this incredible resume, this great history of accomplishment. 126 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 2: And I learned much later. The problem was that Bob 127 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 2: was smoking pot in the bathroom three times a day, 128 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 2: which maybe explained all that candy that he had, but 129 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 2: I didn't know any of that. All I knew was 130 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 2: that Bob was handing mark into me, and there was 131 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 2: shame in his eyes. He knew it wasn't nearly good enough, 132 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,559 Speaker 2: and I would say something to him along the lines of, oh, Bob, 133 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 2: you're so smart, you're so awesome. We all love working 134 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 2: with you. Maybe you could make it just a little 135 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 2: bit better, which of course he never did. So let's 136 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 2: pause for a moment. Why did I say something so 137 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 2: banal to Bob? I think part of the problem was 138 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 2: that Bob was sensitive and popular, and I really didn't 139 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 2: want to hurt his feelings. But also, if I'm honest 140 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 2: with myself, there was a little manipulative and sincerity going 141 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 2: on because he was so popular and so sensitive that 142 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 2: there was part of me that was afraid that if 143 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 2: I told him and no uncertain terms, that his work 144 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 2: wasn't nearly good enough, that he would get upset, he 145 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: might even start to cry, and then everyone would think 146 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 2: I was a big you know what. And so the 147 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 2: part of me that was worried about my reputation as 148 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: a leader. That was the kind of manipulative and sincerity part. 149 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 2: The part of me that was worried about Bob's feelings, 150 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 2: that was the ruinous sympathy part. This went on for 151 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 2: ten months, and eventually the inevitable happened, and I realized 152 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 2: that if I didn't fire Bob, I was going to 153 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 2: lose all the best performers on my team. And because 154 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 2: not only had I been unfair to Bob by not 155 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 2: telling him that his work wasn't nearly good enough, I'd 156 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 2: been unfair to the whole team. And everybody was frustrated. 157 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 2: Their deliverables were late because his deliverables were late. They 158 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 2: were not able to do their best work because they 159 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 2: were having to spend so much time redoing his work. 160 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 2: And the best performers on the team were going to quit. 161 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 2: They were going to go work someplace somewhere else where 162 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 2: they could do their best work. I realized that I 163 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 2: had failed to do my job. It was time to 164 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 2: do it. And when I finished explaining to him where 165 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 2: things stood kind of pushed the chair back from the table. 166 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 2: He looked me right in the eye and he said, 167 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 2: why didn't you tell me. And as that question was 168 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 2: going around in my head with no good answer, he 169 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 2: looked at me again and he said, why didn't anyone 170 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 2: tell me? I thought you all cared about me? And 171 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 2: that was like, it hit me so hard. I hadn't 172 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 2: told him because I thought I was trying to be nice, 173 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 2: and now because I hadn't told him, I'm firing him. 174 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 2: Not so nice after all. And that is the moment 175 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: in my career that really prompted me to think very 176 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 2: deeply about why so many people this is the most 177 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 2: common mistake that managers make, I mean frankly, that we 178 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 2: make in all our relationships. And it's what really prompted 179 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 2: me to write the book Radical Candor and come up 180 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 2: with a two y two framework and to do better 181 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: next time, because all I could do in the moment 182 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 2: was make myself a very solemn promise that I would 183 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 2: never make that mistake again. Because even Bob at this 184 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 2: point agreed he should go. His reputation on the team 185 00:09:58,800 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 2: was just shot. It. 186 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: Really he speaks to what you say around managers need 187 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: to be good at willing to tick people off, and 188 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: that really resonated with me because as a leader myself, 189 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: I really struggle with that. 190 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, me too. 191 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, what if you found for yourself and leaders that 192 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: you've worked with, how do we get better at that? 193 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: Remembering you're not trying to tick people off, but you 194 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 2: have to be willing to take a risk. Your job 195 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 2: as a manager is to help people grow and improve 196 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 2: and even though it might you know, in the case 197 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: of Bob, it might have hurt his feelings in the 198 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 2: short run, but in the long run, it was better 199 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 2: for him. If what I really want to do is 200 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 2: be kind to Bob, I've got to tell him the thing, 201 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 2: even if it stings a little bit in the moment, 202 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: and that is hard. I mean, one of the things 203 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 2: about being a manager is that it can feel sometimes 204 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 2: like a lonely one way street. You're giving and you're 205 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: not allowed to expect to get. That's why you get 206 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 2: paid the big box as a manager, and think about 207 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 2: it as paying it forward. Someone did that, hopefully. I mean, 208 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 2: you may have had some bad managers in your past, 209 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 2: but hopefully everyone's had some good managers too, and you're 210 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 2: sort of paying it forward being. 211 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: Good at willing to tick people off and having that 212 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: as a skill. I've also heard you talk about you're 213 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: not a fan of managers being friends with their direct reports. 214 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 2: Not that I would say don't be friends with them. 215 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 2: But the thing that's really important to remember is that 216 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 2: it is a very human relationship. It may not be 217 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 2: a friendship, it better not be a romance. And unless 218 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 2: it's a family business, it shouldn't be a family You 219 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 2: certainly don't want to play favorites, and that's one of 220 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 2: the risks. In many ways, a manager letting people know 221 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 2: when they're making a mistake as labor of love. But 222 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 2: it shouldn't start with giving criticism. It should always start 223 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 2: with soliciting it and then giving praise, and then giving 224 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 2: criticism and then engaging how it's landing. 225 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: Let's get into criticism and praise. What questions should I 226 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: be asking to elicit criticism from my team? 227 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, so if you say, do you have any feedback 228 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 2: for me, you're wasting your breath. I can already tell 229 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 2: you the answer. Oh no, everything's fine, Like nobody wants 230 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 2: to give you feedback except your teenage children. One of 231 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,719 Speaker 2: the things that I recommend is that people come up 232 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 2: with their go to question and I'll tell you what 233 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 2: mine is, which I didn't. To be fair, I didn't 234 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 2: make up myself. I had a coach tell me this 235 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 2: so you can borrow it if it works for you. 236 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 2: Is what could I do or stop doing that would 237 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,719 Speaker 2: make it easier to work with me? And if you 238 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,439 Speaker 2: buy the book and read it, you'll notice it's worded 239 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 2: a little bit differently in the book. And I got 240 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 2: some feedback that the way I worded it in the 241 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 2: book was imperfect. So the way it's worded in the 242 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 2: book is is there anything? And someone pointed out, you 243 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 2: don't want to ask a question that can be answered 244 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 2: with a yes or no. So what could I do 245 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 2: or stop doing that would make it easier to work 246 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 2: with me? I was working with Kristal Quarrels when she 247 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 2: was CEO of Open Table and she said, Kim, I 248 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 2: could never imagine your words coming out of my mouth. 249 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 2: And she said, the question I like to ask is 250 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 2: tell me why I'm wrong. Okay, that's a fine way 251 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 2: to ask, too. It's got to sound like you. But 252 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:29,599 Speaker 2: the other thing about your question is you want to 253 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 2: make sure that you adjust it for the person you're 254 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 2: asking it of. There are a couple of people on 255 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 2: Christa's team who found that question too aggressive and so 256 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 2: for them she had to sort of back off and 257 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 2: ask him more gently. 258 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: What are some other variations on that question that you 259 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: asked to elicit feedback from others that are stuck with you? 260 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 2: Jason Rosoff, who is the person who I co founded 261 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,079 Speaker 2: Radical can or the company with He likes to ask 262 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 2: where this week did I get involved where you didn't 263 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 2: want me involved? And where did I not get involved 264 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 2: where you did want me involved? And the interesting thing 265 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 2: there is that some people really like their managers to 266 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 2: mostly leave them alone, and other people really want them 267 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 2: more involved. And so as a manager, you want to 268 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 2: try to be a thought partner, not a micromanager or 269 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 2: an absentee manager. But different people are going to define 270 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 2: those things differently, So it's useful to find out what 271 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: people want from you. 272 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: How do you know when you're asking too often for criticism? 273 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: Is there a line somewhere? 274 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: As a general rule, I want to ask at the 275 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 2: end of every one on one, like once a week. 276 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: So I want to ask about that because it's one 277 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: thing to ask for feedback and it's another to receive 278 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: it in a way that positively reinforces the feedback giver 279 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: giving you more feedback. So how have you kim become 280 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: better at receiving criticism, and I'm interested particularly in criticism 281 00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: that you feel is unwarranted. 282 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, you want to make sure that you're listening with 283 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 2: the intent to understand, not to respond. The first step 284 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 2: is to manage your own defensiveness. The next thing that's 285 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 2: really important is to reward the candor when you get it. 286 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 2: When someone gives you some feedback, they are taking a risk, 287 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 2: and if you don't reward risk ritually, you'll never take 288 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 2: that risk again. It's tricky because it's easy to feel 289 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 2: like a disagreement poses a risk to your relationship, but 290 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 2: some of the best relationships of my career have started 291 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 2: with a good, respectful disagreement. 292 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: I want to ask about a situation I was in 293 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: a few months ago where I had been given some 294 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: feedback via one of my team that was about someone 295 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: that had left the organization. And when I heard the feedback, 296 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: I knew intellectually I need to receive the feedback and 297 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: not get defensive. But when I heard the feedback, I 298 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: actually knew that there was another side of the story. 299 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: At the time, I thought, how do I respond to this? 300 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: And I made the decision to just be quiet. And 301 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: listen and thank the person for the feedback. But then 302 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: I walked away from that conversation and I felt so frustrated. 303 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: And a few weeks later I said, hey, when you 304 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: gave me this feedback, it was really hard to take 305 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: for this reason, and I didn't share with them my 306 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: side of the story because I wanted to protect confidentiality. 307 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: But I'd gotten really frustrated sitting with that, and I 308 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: want to know what should I have done better in 309 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: that situation, Kim. 310 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like a really hard situation because you 311 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 2: couldn't share your side of the story. I think I 312 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 2: would double click on that a little bit and say, 313 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 2: are there maybe there are some details of your side 314 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 2: of the story that you can't share, but maybe there 315 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 2: are some that you can share. Because it never is 316 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 2: very satisfying to say that's not what happened, but I 317 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 2: can't tell you what happened, you know. So I think 318 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 2: what I would have done in that moment is to say, 319 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 2: I really appreciate that you shared this with me, and 320 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 2: I'm sorry that you had the experience you had. It 321 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 2: sounds like it was really frustrating. However, there's more to 322 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 2: this story, and here's what I can tell you. There's 323 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 2: a lot more that I cannot tell you, but I 324 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 2: want to assure you that I wouldn't have done what 325 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 2: you thought I did. You know something along those lines, 326 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 2: because the problem with just saying thank you for the 327 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 2: feedback and walking way and feeling frustrated is that, unless 328 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 2: you're an Oscar winning actor, that person knew you were frustrated. 329 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: We will be back with Kim soon talking about what 330 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 1: to do if you really disagree with the feedback that 331 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: you've just been given, and also Kim's views on the 332 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: best way to give someone praise. If you're looking for 333 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: more tips to improve the way you work and live, 334 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: I write a weekly newsletter where I share practical and 335 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: simple to apply tips to improve your life. You can 336 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: sign up for that at Amantha dot substack dot com. 337 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: That's Amantha dot substack dot com. In those situations where 338 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: you're receiving feedback and or criticism, let's say, and you 339 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: find the five to ten percent that you can agree 340 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: with an embrace and learn from. But if there is 341 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: a situation where you do disagree with a large chunk, 342 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: should you raise that at the time or should you 343 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: give it some space? And then come back to it 344 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 1: potentially when emotions have come down. 345 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 2: What should we be doing there? First of all, don't 346 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 2: shut all over yourself. There's no one right answer, so 347 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 2: have some compassion for yourself. If I am feeling like 348 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 2: I'm really upset, then I might wait. However, if I'm 349 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 2: calm enough that I feel like my executive function is 350 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 2: more or less fully engaged, it's a little bit easier 351 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: to have the conversation on the spot. 352 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 1: I would love to talk about the flip side to 353 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: giving criticism, which is giving praise and how do I 354 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: do a good job of giving praise. 355 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 2: The rules of thumb for praise are the same as 356 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 2: those for criticism. You want to for both praise and criticism. 357 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 2: You want to be humble. You're not the arbiter of 358 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 2: what's good or bad. You're sharing your perspective. You want 359 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 2: to state your intention to be helpful. You want to 360 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 2: do it right away. The purpose of praise is to 361 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 2: tell people what to do more of Why would you wait? 362 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 2: You want to praise in public, criticize in private, and 363 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 2: you want to do it in person. 364 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: Something I'm curious about is the idea of how we 365 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: can get better as a team at debating and obviously 366 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: doing that with respect. What advice do you have to 367 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: get better at creating a culture of debate in a 368 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: respectful way. 369 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 2: One of the most important things you can do is 370 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 2: to create consequences for bullying, because there's nothing that will 371 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 2: destroy good debate faster than someone who decides to bully 372 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 2: others in the course of that debate. And the thing 373 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 2: about debate is that it has to happen in public. 374 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 2: Making sure that you're creating an environment in which people 375 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 2: are respectful, that where you're disrupting bias when it happens, 376 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 2: and where you create conversational consequences for bullying as well 377 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 2: as compensation consequences and career consequences. Ultimately, that's going to 378 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 2: help you create a culture of debate. You also want 379 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 2: to make sure that you ask people to really check 380 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 2: their egos when they come into debate. You're debating an idea, 381 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 2: you're debating a notion, and the goal is to come 382 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 2: together to the best idea, the best solution that you 383 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: can have. 384 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: You seen certain methods of helping people check their ego 385 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: and be focused on debating the ideas and not the person. 386 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 1: Just people naturally feel a little bit attached to their 387 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:03,719 Speaker 1: ideas and take it personally when they criticized. 388 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, criticism shouldn't happen in public. You shouldn't criticize a 389 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 2: person in a debate. Anytime you criticize someone in public, 390 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 2: they're going to take it personally. So it's not a 391 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 2: good idea. But you can debate. One of the things 392 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 2: I talk about in radical respect is a rogarian debate. 393 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 2: And the idea of a rogarian debate is that you 394 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 2: and I at a certain point in the discussion, we 395 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 2: switch roles and I argue for your side and you 396 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 2: argue for my side. And that can really help people 397 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 2: learn to listen to each other and learn to talk 398 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 2: more respectfully to each other so that we can put 399 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 2: our heads together and come up with a better answer. 400 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 2: I mean, that's the point of being on a team, 401 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 2: as you get different points of view and you put 402 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 2: them out on the table, and that's what helps you 403 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 2: come up with the best answer. Steve jobs Likens debate 404 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 2: on a team to a rock tumbler. You put a 405 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 2: bunch of ordinary stones in this tin. Can you put 406 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 2: some grid in there? It's on a motor, It spins around. 407 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 2: There's a lot of noise a lot of friction, but 408 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 2: outcome these beautifully polished stones. And that's what we can 409 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 2: do for each other if we're willing to debate and 410 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 2: discuss ideas openly. 411 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: I do love that. How do you know at what 412 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 1: point to introduce that? Do you typically assign someone with 413 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: the role of facilitator to go, okay, now it's time 414 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: to switch viewpoints? How have you found that works in 415 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: practice when you've used it. 416 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 2: I'm usually not very good at being very formal. The 417 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 2: way that I tend to use it is if I 418 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 2: notice the quality of the conversation degrading, I will suggest, 419 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 2: why don't we switch roles? I also use it when 420 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 2: I have a particular point of view, and if I 421 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: have some kind of authority in the situation, I want 422 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 2: to lay that power down, and so I find it 423 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 2: very useful to say, Okay, I know here's what you think, 424 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 2: here's what I think. Why don't I argue your point 425 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 2: of view when you argue mine? And that can make 426 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 2: it easier for folks to argue with me and also 427 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 2: maybe to understand my point. I love that. 428 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: I'm definitely going to be taking a lot of these 429 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: ideas back to my business invent here and Kim, thank 430 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: you for all the tools and strategies that you've given 431 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: me as a leader, and thank you. 432 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 2: So much for your time today. Well, thank you for 433 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 2: yours love, your podcast, and hopefully the Radical Candor Radical 434 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 2: Respect podcast can help your listeners as well. 435 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 1: If you liked this chat with Kim Scott, you should 436 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: definitely go out and grab her latest book, Radical Respect, 437 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: and if you haven't read her classic Radical Candor, I 438 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: highly recommend it as a really simple and practical way 439 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: of improving how you give and receive feedback and ultimately 440 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: become a better leader. If you enjoyed today's episode, I 441 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: would love to ask a favor. Click follow on the 442 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 1: podcast app that you're listening to this on, and if 443 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: you're feeling really generous, leave a review for the show. 444 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: Following this podcast and leaving reviews helps How I Work 445 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: find news and your support is one of the things 446 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: that makes this podcast possible. Thank you for sharing part 447 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: of your day with me by listening to How I Work. 448 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: If you're keen for more tips on how to work better, 449 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: connect with me via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy 450 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: to find. Just search for Amantha Imba. How I Work 451 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: was recorded on the traditional land of the Warrenery people, 452 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: part of the cool And Nation. I am so grateful 453 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: for being able to work and live on this beautiful land, 454 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: and I want to pay my respects to Elder's past, 455 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: present and emerging. How I Work is produced by me 456 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: Amantha Imba. The episode producer was Rowena Murray. And thank 457 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: you to Martin Imba who does the audio mix for 458 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: every episode and makes everything sound better than it would 459 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: have otherwise.