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Speaker 1: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It is Monday,

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Speaker 1: the twenty fifth of July. We're going to be diving

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Speaker 1: into your Hexstebt.

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Speaker 2: We actually had one of our friends mentioned she might

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Speaker 2: have to start selling feet pictures because of how much

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Speaker 2: hex she has to pay off.

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Speaker 1: Before we find out how much debt I have, Zara.

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Speaker 1: What is making headlines this morning?

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Speaker 2: The Monkeybox outbreak has been declared a Global health emergency

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Speaker 2: by the World Health Organization, which is the highest alert

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Speaker 2: that the body can issue. The WHO have said that

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Speaker 2: sixteen thousand cases and five deaths have now been recorded

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Speaker 2: across seventy five countries.

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Speaker 1: Over the weekend, former Trump advisor Steve Bannon was found

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Speaker 1: guilty of contempt of Congress for defying a subpoena from

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Speaker 1: the House Select Committee investigating the January sixth attack. Bannon

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Speaker 1: did not produce documents and testimony the committee had subpoened

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Speaker 1: from him by a deadline last October, and was charged

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Speaker 1: in November. He now faces up to thirty days in prison.

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Speaker 2: Ukraine and Russia have signed their first major agreement since

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Speaker 2: Russia's invasion earlier this year, with the deal aimed at

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Speaker 2: relieving the threat of quote acute hunger triggered by the

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Speaker 2: blocked Black Sea grain deliveries. That said a Russian missile

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Speaker 2: strike on a port in Odessa on the Black Sea

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Speaker 2: has thrown the agreement into doubt.

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Speaker 1: And today's good news, Kelsey Lee Barber has become the

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Speaker 1: first woman in history to successfully defend a javelin world title.

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Speaker 1: Also making news from the World Championships, Peter Bowl was

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Speaker 1: the first Australian to make the eight hundred meters final.

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Speaker 1: It was a big weekend for our Aussie athletes.

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Speaker 2: Sam. Everyone in the office in our group WhatsApps has

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Speaker 2: been talking about one thing, and it's about hex debt,

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Speaker 2: and that's because hex debts are suddenly rising.

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Speaker 1: I didn't actually know how to check my hex debt.

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Speaker 1: I know it's there, I know I pay it off

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Speaker 1: every month, but I wasn't quite sure. So I'm just

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Speaker 1: logging on now to the ATO through the MyGov system

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Speaker 1: and it has gone up. My god, it actually has

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Speaker 1: gone up. So I've been debited on the first of

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Speaker 1: June and indexation applied on the debt of three point

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Speaker 1: nine percent and that has put it up five hundred bucks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think before we look at it exactly

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Speaker 2: how and why our HEX debt is rising. We should

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Speaker 2: take a step back and talk about what exactly HEX is.

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Speaker 1: So let me just map out the basics. HEX is

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Speaker 1: what we commonly use to refer to our student loans.

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Speaker 1: It stands for the Higher Education Contribution Scheme, but it

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Speaker 1: actually falls under a wider umbrella of schemes that come

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Speaker 1: under the HELP program or the Higher Education Loan program.

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Speaker 1: It also can include things like vet study.

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Speaker 2: I think that when we do a comparison of student loans,

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Speaker 2: Australia is looked upon quite favorably in terms of our

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Speaker 2: HEX system.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, other OECD countries do a mortgage style loan, which

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Speaker 1: means that basically have regular repayments once you graduate, regardless

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Speaker 1: of your income.

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Speaker 2: One of the kind trees that always comes to mind

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Speaker 2: when you think about student debt is what the system

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Speaker 2: looks like.

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Speaker 1: In the US. The most generous of government student loans

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Speaker 1: in the US begin accruing interest six months after you graduate,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of people who get private loans through

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Speaker 1: banks or creditors can graduate with some pretty hefty debt,

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Speaker 1: sometimes in six figures.

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Speaker 2: What's good about HEX in Australia is two main things. Firstly,

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Speaker 2: that repayments only begin when your income reaches a certain level,

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Speaker 2: so in this financial year that's a bit over forty

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Speaker 2: eight thousand dollars per annum. But the other thing about

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Speaker 2: HEX is that you don't pay interest, which I think

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Speaker 2: might be the source of some confusion, because if our

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Speaker 2: HEX debt is rising and we're not paying interest, what's

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Speaker 2: the cause.

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Speaker 1: This is often the type of thing that we call

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Speaker 1: on TDA journalist Tom Crowley to try and help us

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Speaker 1: figure out. He didn't explain it on this on Instagram. Tom,

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Speaker 1: hope you had a sensational weekend. What do we need

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Speaker 1: to know here? Thank you, Sam, pleasure as always to

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Speaker 1: be here. The answer is one word, indexation. Indexation is

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Speaker 1: a very normal part of the way that your student

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Speaker 1: loan works. Your student loan, in fact, Sam, in the

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Speaker 1: five years since you've left UNI, has been indexed every

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Speaker 1: single year. This year, though it happened to be really big.

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Speaker 1: That's sad. I'm sad. No, it's cooked that, like five

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Speaker 1: hundred more dollars a lot for the same education. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but five hundred dollars worth in a different thing, right

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Speaker 1: like it? I know, but it's not worth more now?

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Speaker 3: No, But is it worth the same, and I'm going

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Speaker 3: to get into that in a moment, but basically, first,

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Speaker 3: you know what is indexation, And the short answer is

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Speaker 3: it is the government updating the amount that you owe

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Speaker 3: them every year to match rising prices. So we talk

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Speaker 3: about inflation a lot on the podcast. Prices generally rise

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Speaker 3: over time. Sometimes they rise gradually. At the moment, they're

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Speaker 3: rising very fast, and over kind of the space of decades.

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Speaker 3: That can make a really big difference. If you've ever

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Speaker 3: had a grandparent kind of bang on about how back

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Speaker 3: in their day, you know, things used to cost ten sense,

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Speaker 3: you know, you get the sense of how the value

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Speaker 3: of money and what a dollar means changes over time,

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Speaker 3: and so if the government didn't kind of do anything

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Speaker 3: to reflect that, then what would happen is over the

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Speaker 3: maybe you know, decade or two decades that it might

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Speaker 3: take you to pay down your hex debt, the total

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Speaker 3: amount that you owe them would end up being worth

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Speaker 3: a lot less than what it was when you kind

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Speaker 3: of did that degree. And so each year they kind

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Speaker 3: of calculate, you know, how much of prices risen over

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Speaker 3: the course of the year. They use the same sort

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Speaker 3: of standard measure that we often use when we talk

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Speaker 3: about inflation, which is called the consumer price index. That

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Speaker 3: that's where the word indexation comes from. It just tracks

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Speaker 3: the prices of a whole bunch of everyday items. Every year,

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Speaker 3: the government says, all right, you know, based on the

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Speaker 3: price changes this year, here is what we're going to

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Speaker 3: do to the value of your loan, and that underlying

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Speaker 3: amount changes and that'll flow through into what you repay.

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Speaker 1: So let's say hypothetically I had thirty thousand dollars in

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Speaker 1: hex debt. How much did a hex stet of that

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Speaker 1: size go up this year? Yeah, so this year is

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Speaker 1: a big one.

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Speaker 3: As I say, you know, I've been on the podcast

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Speaker 3: plenty of times talking about how fast prices are rising.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure everyone has noticed this at the petrol pump

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Speaker 3: and in the grocery store, and so it was a

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Speaker 3: big one this year. Last year it was only zero

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Speaker 3: point six percent that things went up. By this this time,

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Speaker 3: it's three point nine percent. So it's obviously kind of

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Speaker 3: quite a bit larger. For that kind of thirty k

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Speaker 3: hex stet, you'd be looking at the underlying amount of

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Speaker 3: your debt increasing by a bit over one thousand. Now,

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Speaker 3: as we can kind of explain what you're actually going

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Speaker 3: to repay kind of week to week, eaty year is

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Speaker 3: going to be smaller than that, but the total amount

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Speaker 3: of your hex stet will have increased by sort of

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Speaker 3: that magnitude.

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Speaker 1: And so how does that flow through to what we're

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Speaker 1: actually going to pay you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, as kind of you guys mentioned at the start,

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Speaker 3: the hex system that we have, you don't actually have

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Speaker 3: to repay anything until you earn above I think it's

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Speaker 3: a bit above forty eight thousand, and then the amount

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Speaker 3: that you repaid generally it'll get taken out of your

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Speaker 3: paycheck with the rest of your kind of tax and

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Speaker 3: that kind of thing, so you may not even notice

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Speaker 3: it that much at all. But you generally pay between

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Speaker 3: one and ten percent of your loan off each year,

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Speaker 3: depending on how much you earn. So you know, we

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Speaker 3: talk about one to ten percent of like an extra

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars that probably ends up a year to year

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Speaker 3: not being a huge amount. So the total amount of

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Speaker 3: your debt might have gone up, you know, quite a bit,

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Speaker 3: but you may not necessarily notice it in your repayments.

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Speaker 3: If you had a really big shock and all of

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Speaker 3: a sudden you're having to repay a lot more. That

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Speaker 3: might actually be because your income's changed and you're having

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Speaker 3: to pay a higher percent or something like that. So

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Speaker 3: the kind of week to weak effect of this will

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Speaker 3: be smaller. But if you're someone who is regularly checking

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Speaker 3: or happens to have stumbled upon you know, how much

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Speaker 3: your hex set is, it might be a bit of

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Speaker 3: an eyebrow raiser. But I think the important thing to

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Speaker 3: recognize here is that this smaller increase, this incremental increase

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Speaker 3: is on top of the grocery stress that we're all

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Speaker 3: feeling and the petrol pump being a more expensive place

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Speaker 3: to visit, but not necessarily that increase being matched in

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Speaker 3: how much we're getting paid at work. Yeah, well totally.

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Speaker 3: And this is this is kind of the interesting thing

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Speaker 3: about indexation, right, is that when I talked about it

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Speaker 3: at the start, I guess you can kind of see

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Speaker 3: how it makes sense for the government to kind of be,

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Speaker 3: you know, maintaining the value of what you owe it.

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Speaker 3: But when they're doing that, and when they're kind of

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Speaker 3: cashing that check, if you like, at exactly the same

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Speaker 3: time that there are high rising prices that you're paying

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Speaker 3: in your own life, it's kind of this. Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: guess it's a bit of a side effect, you know,

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Speaker 3: because you feel the effect of the rising prices day

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Speaker 3: to day. We're feeling that at the moment, and then

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Speaker 3: at exactly the same time, the government says, hey, by

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Speaker 3: the way, you need to make sure that I update

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Speaker 3: how much you owe me, because you know, this inflation

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Speaker 3: is kind of eroding the value of the money that

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Speaker 3: I want you to pay me. That seems like a

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Speaker 3: kind of a bit of a I guess, a slap

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Speaker 3: in the face from the government. And so I can

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Speaker 3: understand that that kind of frustration, and I think particularly

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Speaker 3: at a time when, as we know, people's wages are

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Speaker 3: not really keeping up with prices. So you know that

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Speaker 3: sort of three point nine price growth. Wages grew two

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Speaker 3: point three percent in the last year, and the story

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Speaker 3: over the last decade or so has been wages struggling

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Speaker 3: to keep up with prices. So people are sort of saying,

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Speaker 3: you know, why is the government kind of asking me

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Speaker 3: to pay more at a time when my pay packet's

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Speaker 3: not even keeping up with prices. I think it's a

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Speaker 3: reasonable and interesting question.

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Speaker 1: So I'm clear on the point that when you index something,

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Speaker 1: you're tying it to something. Could we not tie hexstat

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Speaker 1: to wages and therefore it wouldn't go up this year. Yeah, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you totally could. That's absolutely right. There's no reason that

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Speaker 1: it has to be tied to this consumer price index.

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Speaker 1: We have a wage price index, so there's no reason

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Speaker 1: you kind of couldn't tie it to that. Just to

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Speaker 1: give you a different example, the age pension that gets

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Speaker 1: indexed by this kind of special pensioner index that takes

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Speaker 1: into account what pension has normally spend on. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of tailored in that way. You could easily come up

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Speaker 1: with the same sort of thing for HEX, but you

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Speaker 1: could you could just use wages. I guess the complicated

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Speaker 1: thing with this though, is that, yes, over the last decade,

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Speaker 1: wages haven't been keeping up with prices, but that's certainly

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Speaker 1: not a state of the world that we like. The

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Speaker 1: government says that, you know, it wants to kind of

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Speaker 1: fix that. It wants wages to be growing faster than prices.

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Speaker 1: So in a world where that's happening, what that would

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Speaker 1: mean is that you know your hext's going up by

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Speaker 1: more and more each year. There are some kind of

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Speaker 1: payments and loans where the way the government does it

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Speaker 1: is they'll pick a by of different indexes and then say,

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Speaker 1: you know, each year will make it the kind of

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Speaker 1: the smaller one. That would be one way to do it.

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Speaker 1: You could kind of keep track of both prices and

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Speaker 1: wages and pick the smaller one each year. That that's

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Speaker 1: kind of one possibility. There are a number of different

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Speaker 1: ways that you could do this, And certainly, I think,

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Speaker 1: I guess this is a particular tension year because prices

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Speaker 1: are rising so fast wages are not. It's probably, you know,

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Speaker 1: really been brought to people's attention exactly what this kind

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Speaker 1: of indexation means. And we're focused on our budgets a

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Speaker 1: little bit more, you know, this could be an opportunity

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Speaker 1: where people are thinking a little bit more about what

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Speaker 1: different models are looking like. Certainly, and I can kind

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Speaker 1: of put that five hundred dollars increase in my HEX

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Speaker 1: now a little bit more in perspective. So thank you

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Speaker 1: Tom for explaining all of that to us and helping

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Speaker 1: us clear that up a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Sam, before this conversation, how regularly were you checking hex?

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Speaker 1: Honestly, last time I checked it was two years ago.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So do you think that after this conversation you'll

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Speaker 2: be checking it more regularly.

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Speaker 1: Probably not. I think I'll probably still set them forget it,

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Speaker 1: but it's important to understand where that indexation is coming from.

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Speaker 2: That is all we have time for today. Thank you

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Speaker 2: for joining us on the daily.

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Speaker 1: Ours are your friends also talking about the next thing.

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Speaker 1: Something that would really help us is if you told

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Speaker 1: a friend about this podcast. It'll help us meet someone

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Speaker 1: new and it'll help you look like you know what's

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Speaker 1: doing in the news.