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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 1: poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Hello, I'm doctor Justin Coulson and I'm joined today by

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Speaker 1: Luke and Suzie, husband wife radio team. They've got three

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Speaker 1: young boys. Oh my wife. This is Happy Families and

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Speaker 1: I have six daughters and I've written six books about

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Speaker 1: raising happy families. And in this conversation, I had a

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Speaker 1: conversation with Luke and Susie about a recent report from

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Speaker 1: the OECD that shows that Australia is not doing so

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Speaker 1: well when it comes to adolescence and bullying.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Justin Coulson, how are you doing great?

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Speaker 1: Thank you. I have a quick joke for you, Susie.

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Speaker 1: It's been a while since I've had a dad joke,

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Speaker 1: but Kylie gave me one the other day that was

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Speaker 1: just so good. It's a little bit of bathroom humor.

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Speaker 1: I hope you'll forgive it, but it's a dad joke.

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Speaker 1: You go into the toilet Australian, you come out of

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Speaker 1: the toilet Australian, But while you're in the toilet, you're

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Speaker 1: not Australian.

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Speaker 2: What are you European?

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Speaker 1: You know that one well done isn't that good.

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Speaker 3: All right, Well, you've been doing some work in this area,

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Speaker 3: particularly recently, doctor Justin Coulson. Where is Australia in a

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Speaker 3: statistic We just don't want.

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Speaker 1: To be Yeah, bullying. The OECD has just released a

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Speaker 1: report showing that Australia is number two, just behind the

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Speaker 1: Brits when it comes to bullying. One in three Australian

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Speaker 1: teenagers now indicates that they've been bullied recently. And obviously

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Speaker 1: this is the kind of news that we don't really

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Speaker 1: want to hear.

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Speaker 3: When you say recently, does that mean the statistics for

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Speaker 3: those teenagers who are bullied in their teenage YUS is

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Speaker 3: probably higher than that.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of hard to know. What we know is

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Speaker 1: that on average Australian teenaged report being bullied. About one

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Speaker 1: in four usually reports that they've been bullied, and some

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Speaker 1: it depends. Some studies will be like the last week,

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Speaker 1: some will say the last month, some will say the

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Speaker 1: last year. This research shows that it's one in three

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Speaker 1: in more recent times, and I think somewhere around twenty

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Speaker 1: five to thirty three percent, let's say thirty percent on

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Speaker 1: average in the last month or thereabouts, would report having

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Speaker 1: experienced bullying. We don't know how many people overall because

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Speaker 1: we just can't get that data, but there's a pretty

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Speaker 1: high percentage of kids that are having a rough time socially.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to break a rule of broadcast here justin

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Speaker 3: and ask you a question that I don't know if

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Speaker 3: you have the answer to, and that is the countries

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Speaker 3: that are doing really well in this is their research

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Speaker 3: on what they're doing that is proving successful.

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Speaker 1: You break the rule every time we talk, So I'm

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Speaker 1: okay with that. I don't know if you know. There's

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Speaker 1: a handful of things that are probably going on in

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Speaker 1: countries where bullying rates are lower that don't happen in

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Speaker 1: countries where bullying rates are higher. We live in a

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Speaker 1: society and the countries that are scoring highest on bullying

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Speaker 1: generally where we have a really individual, individualistic approach to life,

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Speaker 1: and we live in these countries that we call meritocracies.

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Speaker 1: That is, the harder you work, the further you can go. Therefore,

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Speaker 1: if you haven't gone very far, you mustn't be working

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Speaker 1: very hard. Now, we can obviously see flaws in those

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Speaker 1: two approaches and those ideas, and yet what we kind

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Speaker 1: of have created is a dog eat dog world. I

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Speaker 1: don't think that. I don't want to blame social media entirely,

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Speaker 1: but I think over the last decade or so, the

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Speaker 1: way social media has polarized and created fences and barriers

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Speaker 1: and distinguish people based on their political beliefs, for example,

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Speaker 1: or whatever beliefs it might be, I don't think that's helped.

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Speaker 1: I think that's only enhanced this fractured, individualistic approach. But

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Speaker 1: it seems that the countries that do worst are the

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Speaker 1: ones who are the most individualistic, and also the ones

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Speaker 1: who are very much about, you know, just get to

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Speaker 1: the top, make sure that you win. There's a real

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Speaker 1: competitive slant to the way their societies work. And you know,

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Speaker 1: when you look at the people who are most likely

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Speaker 1: to bully, it's not the kids that are down on

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Speaker 1: their luck. It's not the kids that don't have too

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Speaker 1: much going for them. It's usually the kids who are

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Speaker 1: at the top of the hierarchy, the kids who aren't

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Speaker 1: afraid of ruffling a few feathers to maintain their power.

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Speaker 1: There's that level of muckiavellianism. They've got the skills to

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Speaker 1: be at the top and to put other people in

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Speaker 1: their place. The kids that get bullied the most are

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Speaker 1: the ones who are different, whether they're a different race,

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Speaker 1: different religion, different culture. Maybe they show up at school

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Speaker 1: and their lunch looks different or smells different to everyone else's.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they're the kid who is carrying a couple of

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Speaker 1: kilos more than the average student in their grade, or

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Speaker 1: maybe they're the skinny kid, or perhaps they've got a lisp,

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Speaker 1: or maybe they don't learn so well. All you've got

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Speaker 1: to do is be different, and the kids that have

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Speaker 1: got the power will make sure that you know that

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Speaker 1: you're different, and everyone else does too, which.

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Speaker 3: Is interesting because in adulthood, when you get into a

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Speaker 3: certain sphere, you suddenly realize that anything you have that

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Speaker 3: sets you apart is an asset, whereas yeah, in these

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Speaker 3: teenage years, anything that might set you apart puts you

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Speaker 3: out on the edge to tee you down. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: used to tee you downs.

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Speaker 2: I like the faith that you have in humanity that

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Speaker 2: we learn those lessons as adults.

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Speaker 1: I was going to the same thing. I know plenty

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Speaker 1: of that also are.

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Speaker 3: Like, yeah, maybe not, maybe I just have really nice friends.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think this is such an interesting thing because

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Speaker 2: I feel like we're very woke about the concept of bullying.

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Speaker 2: It talked about it, so I feel like we address

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Speaker 2: it regularly, and it's a part of our language, and

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Speaker 2: everything is about anti bullying. So if we put so

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Speaker 2: much effort into counteracting this, then why is it still

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Speaker 2: so prominent? Why are we still some of the worst

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Speaker 2: at it.

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Speaker 1: Let me get really deep for a second. My sense

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Speaker 1: is that it's because of our hearts. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that our hearts are turned towards our neighbors. I don't

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Speaker 1: think that our hearts are turned towards helping and lifting

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Speaker 1: and making a positive difference in the lives of the

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Speaker 1: people around us. Now I'm speaking collectively, I'm not speaking

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Speaker 1: about individuals here. You can look at our politics. Our

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Speaker 1: political leaders across the globe, but particularly in these Western countries,

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Speaker 1: have become more divisive than ever. They're not interested in

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Speaker 1: collaborating and working together for mutual good. They're interested in

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Speaker 1: power and winning. When you look at our sports teams,

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Speaker 1: when you look at our corporate culture, when you look

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Speaker 1: even at our schools and how competitive our schools have become.

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Speaker 1: We live in a culture of competition and comparison and

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Speaker 1: never being enough unless you're on top. I can't help

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Speaker 1: but think that that approach to life at a society

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Speaker 1: wide level turns hearts away from and even against our

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Speaker 1: neighbors and our peers, the kids that we're going to

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Speaker 1: school with, or the people that we're working with. When

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Speaker 1: competition rules, that means that there's going to be a hierarchy,

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Speaker 1: and that means that you want to be at the top,

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Speaker 1: not the bottom. And it's just I think that our

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Speaker 1: hearts are not turned towards helping and lifting. I think

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Speaker 1: that our hearts are turned away from or even against

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Speaker 1: the people who we really could be friends with and

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Speaker 1: collaborators with, even if they see the world differently. And

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Speaker 1: to me, it's actually that simple.

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Speaker 2: It's a really interesting challenge of self awareness as a

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Speaker 2: nation because I as much as white Australia, and I'll

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Speaker 2: say quite boldly, can say that Australia is not a

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Speaker 2: racist country when the minorities in our country say a

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Speaker 2: very different story consistently, when we feel like we're counteracting bullying,

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Speaker 2: and the statistics globally say something different, like maybe we

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Speaker 2: have a very strong self awareness issue that we like

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Speaker 2: to deny that these problems are real, but they're more

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Speaker 2: real than we could ever hope they would ever be.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, me coming and thought here justin taking in what

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Speaker 3: you've said there about how one of the things sitting

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Speaker 3: at the core of our bullying culture is this individualistic

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Speaker 3: society that we do have. Now, does that mean that

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Speaker 3: as parents, when we're looking at how do we help

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Speaker 3: our children not become the bully, that sitting down having

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Speaker 3: a conversation with them about not bullying is not going

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Speaker 3: to be nearly as effective as taking them with us

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Speaker 3: to help our friends move or to volunteer at the

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Speaker 3: local whatever. Is actually that action of having them see

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Speaker 3: us and participate in helping people in our society actually

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Speaker 3: the bettert step to teaching them to not Bullyeve.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I couldn't have said it better myself. You know,

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Speaker 1: when was the last time, and I'm not asking you

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Speaker 1: to directly, just as a general consideration, when was the

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Speaker 1: last time we had somebody from a different culture in

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Speaker 1: our own home, maybe for a meal or for a barbecue.

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Speaker 1: When was the last time that some people in your

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Speaker 1: street were moving in or moving out and you went

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Speaker 1: knocked on the door and dropped off a meal, or

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Speaker 1: you found out that somebody was sick and so you

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Speaker 1: just went to spend some time with them. I feel

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Speaker 1: as though we tend to have less of a sense

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Speaker 1: of community compared to how we might have when I

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Speaker 1: was a kid growing up, or you know, decades before that.

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Speaker 1: Even my sense is that our volunteering and our caring

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Speaker 1: for others has been diminished as governments have gotten bigger

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Speaker 1: and stepped in and is not for profits have stepped in.

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Speaker 1: And while there's all sorts of great work being done

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Speaker 1: in the world, there's a lot less individual responsibility, I think,

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Speaker 1: and our children are not seen us being used up

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Speaker 1: in helping and serving others. As a result, they have

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Speaker 1: less interaction with those who perhaps are less fortunate, and

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Speaker 1: therefore they have less empathy for them. Because they have

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Speaker 1: less contact with them, Therefore it's easy to bully them,

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Speaker 1: it's easy to dehumanize them because they're not humans anyway.

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Speaker 1: I don't see them, I don't know who they are,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what life is like for them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been a really challenging conversation, all out of

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Speaker 2: a statistic in some research.

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Speaker 3: Doctor does and calls them.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for your time, Thanks Cuzzie, Thanks Luke. If you've

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Speaker 1: enjoyed the podcast and found it helpful, If you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: mind doing something for me? Could you visit Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 1: The ratings and reviews have been coming through at a

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Speaker 1: it's your ratings and reviews that help people to find

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Speaker 1: the podcast and have happier families. Received a review that

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