Speaker 1: Today, I'm going to tell you a story about a journalist.
Speaker 2: Oh is it about yourself?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 2: Got me a beauty.
Speaker 1: These JOURNALI has chased down stories to the very edge
Speaker 1: of the world, only to have her own story cut
Speaker 1: short in the most unthinkable of ways. Today I'm going
Speaker 1: to tell you about the night of what happened, the
Speaker 1: search that followed, more on who this journalist really was,
Speaker 1: the smoking gun, and the prison escape attempt.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Today I'm telling you the story of Kim Wall.
Speaker 2: This has got everything. I don't know this story, and
Speaker 2: I think I say that every week, So please continue
Speaker 2: with your tale.
Speaker 4: That's money that.
Speaker 2: Everybody welcome it to. Not another crime podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Georgia Long, I'm Sammy Peterson, I'm a journalist.
Speaker 2: I am not. But if you want to just skip
Speaker 2: ahead as always and listen to just the story, you
Speaker 2: can do that. The time code is in the show notes.
Speaker 2: Love Sammy, I have had such a lovely time meeting
Speaker 2: you today. Thank you everything and more that people told
Speaker 2: me of you.
Speaker 1: What have they told you?
Speaker 2: Yep?
Speaker 1: Can you please tell me good?
Speaker 2: I love when people say that they're expecting you well.
Speaker 2: I remember being in an office once where someone said
Speaker 2: oh good, I hope, and they went, oh yeah, it
Speaker 2: wasn't even know it was a oh lordy, dear me. Right.
Speaker 1: I don't know why. I don't know why you keep
Speaker 1: talking about other stupid when there is one big topic
Speaker 1: that I know you're desperate to talk about. Because this
Speaker 1: your apartment today. It's a little bit of carnage. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, like a college frat house the
Speaker 1: day after a big party, but it's less like red
Speaker 1: solo cups and empty beer kegs and more a lot
Speaker 1: of dog fluff and dozens of dog toys. Yes, please
Speaker 1: end me tell me why.
Speaker 2: Well, so a friend did message me this morning and said, hey,
Speaker 2: I thought you were going to come and meet me
Speaker 2: last night, and I was like, sorry, I didn't text.
Speaker 2: I had a party pie party, which is so damn cool. Now,
Speaker 2: if you don't know what a party pie party is,
Speaker 2: it's basically a party where you have party pies at
Speaker 2: a party. Oh and I thought Digs was turning seven
Speaker 2: years old. Seven years old. He was born on Valentine's Day,
Speaker 2: of course he was. He's my little love bug and
Speaker 2: he was loved bomb and I every time it's his birthday,
Speaker 2: I just want to do something a little bit special,
Speaker 2: And I thought he'd love party pies, he'd love lollies,
Speaker 2: he'd love mini sausage rolls, and he'd just love everyone
Speaker 2: having the best time of their lives. And also him
Speaker 2: showing all of the toys. And so it was Valentine's Day.
Speaker 2: I know Valentie Day. Not everyone celebrates Valentine's Day, but
Speaker 2: to those who celebrate, you should also be celebrating Tu's birthday.
Speaker 2: And I thought, why don't I just put it out
Speaker 2: there to the world to say, Hey, if you're not
Speaker 2: doing anything, I'm going to have a party pie party
Speaker 2: between four to six pm. If you want to drop
Speaker 2: by the party Pie party, please do come. Diggs would
Speaker 2: lose his mind. So the first person that comes is
Speaker 2: my friend Serena. Diggs is like, this is the best
Speaker 2: day I've ever had. She brought him to a full
Speaker 2: gift one visitor.
Speaker 1: Did he know?
Speaker 2: Those people kept turning up And because our good friend
Speaker 2: Gee Love and Diggs. G Love is Diggs's favorite person
Speaker 2: in the world. And I was like, g was basically
Speaker 2: doing everyone has an egg. So you were doing two
Speaker 2: interviews today yes day. The other podcast which is coming
Speaker 2: back very exciting and so you were going to be
Speaker 2: like half an hour behind everyone else. So Diggs, every
Speaker 2: person that came in, Diggs was just like, this is incredible.
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe it. And then the g Love rocks up. Now.
Speaker 2: G Love also brought Digs two beautiful little toys but
Speaker 2: and party hats and fairy bread fairy rud. But when
Speaker 2: I first moved house, like, oh, like a long time ago,
Speaker 2: like what a year ago was even that long ago?
Speaker 2: It was basically a year ago I moved house and
Speaker 2: Diggs was kind of because brand new area. Digs and
Speaker 2: I had moved house together twice, yes, and he was like,
Speaker 2: oh bit he it takes a little bit to find
Speaker 2: his feet. He's just like walking around. And I remember
Speaker 2: the moment that you walked through the front gate at
Speaker 2: the new place and he could see you and it
Speaker 2: was like, and I'm not I'm not exaggerating when it
Speaker 2: says it was like he was looking at me going
Speaker 2: she found us, Like she found us.
Speaker 1: That's exactly what his face was doing, exactly. Oh my god.
Speaker 1: We moved blast, but She's found here.
Speaker 2: And then Oliver Clark came out. So this is the
Speaker 2: first day I moved. So you and Oliver came over
Speaker 2: for drinks and he could not he could not believe it,
Speaker 2: and so the party yesterday was the best day of
Speaker 2: his life. My old neighbor Mish gave him a kangaroo
Speaker 2: meat log and so we had that for his Christmas
Speaker 2: and I didn't serve him that, but yeah, but I
Speaker 2: got that, and so he was. It was just a
Speaker 2: day where it was like, digs, whatever you want to do.
Speaker 2: So I went to the dog park. He's running around there.
Speaker 2: Then it was just like him sniffing. Ever. I was like,
Speaker 2: you take me where we're going, and then he like
Speaker 2: just walked around for probably an hour, just sniff and stuff,
Speaker 2: popping his heads into popping your heads. He's got one.
Speaker 2: He's not the dog from Harry Potter. But yeah, so
Speaker 2: then he popped his into cafes and everything, and a
Speaker 2: few people.
Speaker 1: Oh no, you know the rule of it rings you
Speaker 1: have to answer it.
Speaker 2: Your mom gone, hey, mama bear, Oh good, how are you?
Speaker 2: We just recorded G and I recording an episode of
Speaker 2: the podcast right now. I g said hello, Hello, do
Speaker 2: you have any advice? Last time you're on the podcast,
Speaker 2: you gave advice about tap dancing. Have you got any
Speaker 2: advice for today, hack or anything, advice for today.
Speaker 5: Let me think we'll.
Speaker 6: Be wary of swimming in murky water. Okay, sometimes you
Speaker 6: knock other swimmers on the head accidentally.
Speaker 2: And then was there a death.
Speaker 6: No, there wasn't a death, but a headache.
Speaker 1: Apparently, which is worse arguably yesterday.
Speaker 2: Oh no, so have you had a big falling out?
Speaker 6: Yes, I'm afraid again something for you will to beware of.
Speaker 2: Thank you for letting us know. I'll give you a
Speaker 2: call a little bit later. We're just talking about Diggs's birthday.
Speaker 7: Baddy.
Speaker 2: It was an absolute hit. He loved it. Love you
Speaker 2: talk to you later.
Speaker 1: By the grandma.
Speaker 2: But yeah, but it was it was just one of
Speaker 2: those murky water and she's hits.
Speaker 1: There's been a few sharks in Australia recently. She's making
Speaker 1: a shark thing.
Speaker 2: No, no, she just hits someone. I'm not sure because also,
Speaker 2: like Philip Land, at this time of the year, it's
Speaker 2: quite quiet and he's like swimming. How do you hit
Speaker 2: someone in the head anyway? So yeah, so it was
Speaker 2: the best day of his life, popping his head into
Speaker 2: cafes just and I said it's his birthday, and he
Speaker 2: got some treats from local cafe owners. He was having
Speaker 2: the best day of his life. It was incredible, so
Speaker 2: best day I could have spent for Valentine's Day. It
Speaker 2: was beautiful.
Speaker 1: It was beautiful, and he's very tired.
Speaker 2: Very tired. He's absolutely exhausted. Anything I missed out.
Speaker 1: There were like ten people. Yeah, you dig this seventh birthday.
Speaker 1: It was just it was really beautiful. He stole a
Speaker 1: piece of fairy bread off the plane he did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and a party pie as well.
Speaker 1: And a box of more tesus.
Speaker 2: Yes, a box of more teasers because he's very excited.
Speaker 2: How about your Gallantine's Night? Was it wonderful?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, girlfriends went out for dinner and called
Speaker 1: it Gallantines.
Speaker 2: Some of the girls that we hear as well as Yeah.
Speaker 1: That's right. Just had a lovely Mexican dinner. Spoke about
Speaker 1: Bad Bunny at the Super Bowl a lot.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we loved it.
Speaker 1: Oh, we simply cannot stop talking about it. It was the
Speaker 1: freaking best.
Speaker 2: It was so cool. Ever, Yeah, it was amazing. And
Speaker 2: everyone that was upset about it, who like, it's just
Speaker 2: so annoying. I don't know who's annoying.
Speaker 1: It's just racist people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I didn't know who Bad Bunny was, Like,
Speaker 2: I don't think people knew yeah in the world. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was amazing. And we went to the Book of Mormon.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, we went to the Melbourne premiere of
Speaker 1: the musical The Book of Mormon. Yeah this week, Sammy,
Speaker 1: please tell me what you thought about it. Well, tell
Speaker 1: me what you were expecting for I know you've seen
Speaker 1: the show before from this performance.
Speaker 2: So I had seen it in twenty thirteen, I was
Speaker 2: going overseas for the first time. I was so excited,
Speaker 2: and I booked a West End show because I was like, anyway,
Speaker 2: I'm a big than of South Park. I've always been
Speaker 2: big fan of South Park. But I do not watch
Speaker 2: every episode. I just go it's really clever. I find
Speaker 2: it really funny. I find the humor really funny. Sometimes
Speaker 2: it's a bit too gross for me with all the
Speaker 2: shitting humor. Yeah, but I do find it really funny.
Speaker 2: And so I just love the musical when I saw it.
Speaker 2: But since then, people have told me it's changed a
Speaker 2: bit in the last few years, and they've kind of
Speaker 2: tried to, I guess, just bring it up to today's standards.
Speaker 2: But I just don't think that's the way that South
Speaker 2: Park have ever operated. So it's like, you're going to
Speaker 2: get me wrong.
Speaker 1: It was wrong when they wrote, like, you know, it.
Speaker 2: Was wrong when they wrote it, absolutely and not.
Speaker 1: In a way that it's like, you know, really a
Speaker 1: fency No, it's very rude. Yes, yea, but I didn't
Speaker 1: because I know it very well. Yeah yeah, And I
Speaker 1: only noticed one bit that they changed and like literally
Speaker 1: one line in a song that they changed slightly.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: So but yeah, people did that as well. It was
Speaker 1: absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 2: It's incredible. I don't remember that level of hilarious dancing, dancing.
Speaker 1: The dancing.
Speaker 2: The dancing was so funny and so great, and it
Speaker 2: only lent into the belief of the Mormons, which I
Speaker 2: thought was so great. That they feel like they can
Speaker 2: do anything. They're there to help, they're excited and everything, and.
Speaker 1: Their haircuts are precise, they're.
Speaker 2: Very precise, but like the most amazing performance. So I
Speaker 2: also loved and it wasn't like they didn't have women
Speaker 2: in the show, but I love that the women of
Speaker 2: the Mormons were.
Speaker 1: Always the men. Yeah yeah, because there's only like the
Speaker 1: cast all the Mormons are male, yes, and so the
Speaker 1: women in the cast are from the part of the
Speaker 1: show where they go to Africa. Yes, so there was
Speaker 1: there's one scene where like the Mormon missionaries are going
Speaker 1: off on their mission and they were like saying goodbye
Speaker 1: to their families at the airport. So they were like, oh,
Speaker 1: we need a couple of white women. So it was
Speaker 1: just the Mormon boys with like really bad obvious folk
Speaker 1: wiggs am. I not trying to hide it.
Speaker 2: At all, but it was. It was so funny. It
Speaker 2: was like I thought it would be good, but it
Speaker 2: was great.
Speaker 1: It was so good, wasn't it.
Speaker 2: It was so funny as well. Look I loved the
Speaker 2: whole time.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, my cheeks were hurting. It sounds like it's
Speaker 1: spon con It's not. We just really loved it. What
Speaker 1: was your favorite song? Please?
Speaker 2: My favorite song is always or I Love Salt Lake
Speaker 2: a City, which I always loved, but I thought it
Speaker 2: was amazing. The one that I can't pronounce that He's
Speaker 2: always the one that was fantastic. The dancing in that
Speaker 2: age was it was just brought to life. And I've
Speaker 2: seen it once before, I've listened to the soundtrack a lot,
Speaker 2: but the way they brought that to life was incredible
Speaker 2: was your favorite?
Speaker 1: I love Spooky Mormon Hell Dream. That's like when I
Speaker 1: was listening, it was so yeah. So when I'm listening
Speaker 1: to the like soundtrack, I sometimes skipped that one, but
Speaker 1: like the staged version.
Speaker 2: Is so yeah good. It was brilliant, Like everyone was funny,
Speaker 2: everyone was great. There were little added moments in there.
Speaker 2: There's characters that just pop up for a second that like,
Speaker 2: that's incredible. It's so funny. And also like I think
Speaker 2: that's the thing about you know, Trey Parker and Matt
Speaker 2: Stone from South Park, is like it's actually an incredible musical.
Speaker 2: It's also it's not just funny. They've written credible.
Speaker 1: They've written a musical to take the piece out of musicals.
Speaker 1: So they've done it in like a piece taky way
Speaker 1: where they're like, well, open with a big like opening number,
Speaker 1: and then the next scene will be like setting the
Speaker 1: scene for what the story is going to be, and
Speaker 1: then it will be arriving at the second destination, and
Speaker 1: then there's a big tap number, and there's a ballad,
Speaker 1: and then the one before interval starts as one person song,
Speaker 1: and then the others from the rest of the half
Speaker 1: of the show come back in with their little bits,
Speaker 1: Like they're taking the piss out of the formula of
Speaker 1: every musical and in doing that they've made a fucking.
Speaker 2: Great musically, really good And because they're so talented they
Speaker 2: can write music. They can and like I don't know
Speaker 2: everything they do. Like even you look at Team America
Speaker 2: their film and you go, yeah, even the songs are
Speaker 2: so catchy and so great. What is it America? Fuck?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Comment again to say the mother and that is a
Speaker 2: pisce take on Americans. Yes, And so it's so that
Speaker 2: were it's so funny because they do just take the
Speaker 2: piece out of people.
Speaker 1: And in doing that make a really.
Speaker 2: Brilliant piece, make a really amazing piece of work. And
Speaker 2: g Love saw me absolutely star struck. It's not the
Speaker 2: first time you've legitimately seen me starstruck.
Speaker 1: No, Karen from Sea Change, you were as well, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: but that was you were a bit more weird about that.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't like walk. I didn't want to talk to
Speaker 1: her two starstruck. You didn't want to embarrass yourself.
Speaker 2: Yes, And then she came to a live show and
Speaker 2: I was like, hi, Karen from Sea Change, and my
Speaker 2: friend grabbed me and went her name is Katie.
Speaker 1: And you know that. So we were out the front
Speaker 1: of the show at interval, and dear listeners, if you
Speaker 1: have been listening for a while, you know Sammy has
Speaker 1: brought up the Real Housewives of Melbourne.
Speaker 2: Yes, a few times many.
Speaker 1: He loves the Real Housewives of Melbourne. Petty Flir from
Speaker 1: the Real Housewives of Melbourne walked out of the doors
Speaker 1: and walked towards us, and SAMU went, oh my god,
Speaker 1: like this, and then Pettiflir said to met walked directly
Speaker 1: up to me and went, miss Love and gat me
Speaker 1: a big hug. Sammy's faint like I'm not exaggerating, and
Speaker 1: I say, your mouth like it was jaw to the floor,
Speaker 1: and you were just staring at her, and so I went, I.
Speaker 2: Think I'm the only heterosexual in the world with huge family.
Speaker 1: Petty fl So I said, this is Sammy, he loves you,
Speaker 1: this is Pettyflir. And Sammy, you looked at her and
Speaker 1: you went, now I've met you and Janet Roach I
Speaker 1: do remember.
Speaker 2: That, yes, And also I'd like to add a bit
Speaker 2: as an out of body appearance. I didn't bring that
Speaker 2: up forgot.
Speaker 1: We have to see her again.
Speaker 2: Janet Roach I met twice. You remember. Once I met
Speaker 2: her at Rob Mills's birthday party. She was just out
Speaker 2: of the front. She get all Mills, he wouldn't mind
Speaker 2: and something like that, and major Janet Roach. I kept
Speaker 2: filling a Janet Roach. And then I saw her at
Speaker 2: the airport.
Speaker 1: Told that story on here before.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. And someone next to me was like,
Speaker 2: what's the deal?
Speaker 1: Who is that?
Speaker 2: No one knows? But yes, so pettifloir incredible.
Speaker 1: And then I said, can Sammy please get a photo
Speaker 1: with you? Because I knew you wouldn't have asked, and
Speaker 1: you desperately would have.
Speaker 2: Yes, And so then she put her leg across my waist.
Speaker 2: Incredible stuff. And then she asked if she could get
Speaker 2: a photo on her phone.
Speaker 1: Yes, of you.
Speaker 2: And then she followed me on Instagram dot com and
Speaker 2: then she said you have amazing energy.
Speaker 1: Oh well, she's right, but it was.
Speaker 2: It was so lovely.
Speaker 1: So you telling me right now on the record, you
Speaker 1: and pet Flair in a relationship.
Speaker 2: Yeah, committed relations sexual. Ah, it's not there yet, but
Speaker 2: it will be soon. Oh my god.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Like I keep saying to you that diggsi but Diggs
Speaker 2: is seven. Yes, yes, he wants to have his first
Speaker 2: kiss this year.
Speaker 1: No, I don't know.
Speaker 2: You get this.
Speaker 1: It makes my heart hurt when you say, Sam. He's
Speaker 1: been saying for the first like two months of this year.
Speaker 1: Digs is thinking because he turns seven this year, maybe
Speaker 1: seven with the age where he gets his first he
Speaker 1: has his first kiss.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know why.
Speaker 1: It hurts my heart. It makes me a little.
Speaker 2: Bit such a gentleman, and I think he would be
Speaker 2: so he.
Speaker 1: Did, he'd be a big, a good kisser.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know. I don't know about that. Practices
Speaker 2: on dad quite a lot, but not in that way.
Speaker 2: Just so he just likes to give me a kiss.
Speaker 2: But I reckon. And this is why I want you
Speaker 2: to take him to the dog park, because you get
Speaker 2: embarrassed around me.
Speaker 1: Digs would, yeah, but if you could.
Speaker 2: Take Himo the dog park to help his chat to
Speaker 2: girls and stuff like to chat to. There's a Primrose
Speaker 2: who was a little bulldog.
Speaker 1: It's the best name for him.
Speaker 2: So cute, a little beautiful primrose, and he was always
Speaker 2: just like like really cute with her, Like we just
Speaker 2: kind of sidle up to her and just stand.
Speaker 1: So you're asking me to take your dog to the
Speaker 1: dog park and help him flirt with Primrose the bulldog.
Speaker 2: Have his first kiss. Wouldn't that beautiful? No, talk to
Speaker 2: me about it for ages after.
Speaker 1: I don't really, he's looking at me funny. Now tell me.
Speaker 2: Embarrassed jobs please JEMs. But yeah, so Digs will maybe
Speaker 2: have his first kiss this year, and I will consummate
Speaker 2: my relationship with Petty Flair. And I'm putting that on
Speaker 2: the record right now.
Speaker 1: I've got one question, follow up question. Is that a
Speaker 1: threat or a promise?
Speaker 2: It's a threat and a promise.
Speaker 1: Oh should you take that out?
Speaker 2: Why?
Speaker 1: No, no reason, Petty Flir. If you're listening, blink twice.
Speaker 2: But yeah I was. I was so star struck. And
Speaker 2: it really doesn't happen. I think it is for me.
Speaker 2: It is people who you've either grown up watching. So
Speaker 2: for me, see Change was the show that I watched
Speaker 2: with my family growing up. So you have this idea
Speaker 2: of people and for Real Housewives and Melbourne. I watched
Speaker 2: every single episode in COVID. Oh that like it's.
Speaker 1: Your Yeah, it's like that bubble time of.
Speaker 2: Bubble time of going. That's when I watched Celebrity.
Speaker 1: That's when I watched Ship's Creek. So that's my show
Speaker 1: from that time. It was dedicated time because you were
Speaker 1: never out doing anything else, Like every night it'd be like,
Speaker 1: should we watch for more episodes?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a time capsule moment my my friend.
Speaker 2: And I'm not going to say the name because of name.
Speaker 1: Mom. Hey, how much do you like Real Housewives? Do
Speaker 1: you get this reference name? Mom?
Speaker 2: I love that name. So name. So he once saw
Speaker 2: Scotty Camp and he went, I fucking loved Scotty Camp.
Speaker 2: And it was the funniest thing I've ever heard because
Speaker 2: it was Scotti Cam, who is from the block, the block.
Speaker 2: I don't even know the block, and he just kept saying,
Speaker 2: oh my god, Scotty Camp, it's got a camp because
Speaker 2: he decided to watch all of like all of the block,
Speaker 2: Like he just started watching all the episodes all the block, which.
Speaker 1: Which if you're listening from overseas and you don't know
Speaker 1: this show, it's a renovation reality.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, we needed to get you out of here.
Speaker 2: It was too much like just being excited about Scotti Camp.
Speaker 2: But I feel like people have and I'd love to
Speaker 2: hear from your listeners. If you have a person.
Speaker 1: A niche, a niche celebrity.
Speaker 2: It can't be like, oh my god, Margo, Robbie or anything.
Speaker 2: It has to be such a niche.
Speaker 1: That other people would go whoa really Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Have you had one of those where it's like,
Speaker 2: I think, cac your sister. It's like that was Robs
Speaker 2: and Mills.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Oh my god, so
Speaker 1: Joe Christie and Joel Christie Joel crazy. Yeah, she's a
Speaker 1: bit more cool with Joe Crazy now, but she still
Speaker 1: loses her mind over Rod meals. We like, we're good
Speaker 1: friends with Rob Mills. Yeah, so Katie is now my sister,
Speaker 1: not if you're miss Vanity. That wasn't very good. I
Speaker 1: started saying it was good though it was. That's okay,
Speaker 1: and we'll just cut that out.
Speaker 4: Edit it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but do not edit the consummate the relationship with
Speaker 2: Petty Flair. Do not edit that bit out.
Speaker 1: This is gonna be this story is really long. We've
Speaker 1: been bullshitting on for someone. No one cares about anything.
Speaker 2: I think they do. That's why you're wrong, Triky Babe,
Speaker 2: Heychookie babe, I'm never wrong.
Speaker 1: I'm never wrong. I think we should get a crack
Speaker 1: on with the story. Yes, but Katie loves Rob Mills.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, so right, whatever we would love to
Speaker 2: hear from you. We're gonna do the mailbag section as
Speaker 2: always at the end. Please do right in Sammy at
Speaker 2: just Another Company dot com dot au. You can leave
Speaker 2: a speak pipe below. That's a voice that you can
Speaker 2: leave us. We love hearing your voice.
Speaker 1: You must leave us a five star review. You must
Speaker 1: leave us a five star rating.
Speaker 4: That's right.
Speaker 2: Let's get into this week's episode.
Speaker 1: Now. Today. I need a big shout out at the
Speaker 1: top of this story. Yes, thank you, and a credit
Speaker 1: to our good friend Taylor who I work with. Taylor
Speaker 1: ghost wrote this episode. So she's a writer. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: she's working with me at the radio station at the
Speaker 1: moment and doesn't have as much of an opportunity to
Speaker 1: do kind of creative writing. And she listens to this
Speaker 1: podcast and loves it, and she said can you famously
Speaker 1: doesn't like something she tells us all the time. She said,
Speaker 1: could I do, Like, I just want to kind of
Speaker 1: do some writing if I wrote wrote an episode for
Speaker 1: your podcast, do you want to do it? And I
Speaker 1: was like, what me have a night off new things?
Speaker 1: I said yes, And so that's.
Speaker 2: So good, because Taylor also did mention you told me
Speaker 2: before this that takes a lot of work to write
Speaker 2: one of these episodes.
Speaker 1: She goes, I really enjoyed writing, and like I enjoyed writing,
Speaker 1: but fun, I'm not doing that again. That drooks so
Speaker 1: fucking long. I know that's why when you said you're
Speaker 1: doing yes. So this episode is written by and edited
Speaker 1: and presented Sorry, written by Taylor and edited and presented
Speaker 1: by yours Georgia and Ruth Love. And if you're wondering,
Speaker 1: my birthday is on the thirtieth of August.
Speaker 2: Thank you for saying that.
Speaker 1: So, as I said in the intro, today, I'm going
Speaker 1: to tell you a story about a journalist who chased
Speaker 1: stories right around the world, only to have her own
Speaker 1: story end and become a huge story of its own.
Speaker 1: Kim Wall was an award winning Swedish reporter. Go on,
Speaker 1: I know what you want to do. Tell the chef,
Speaker 1: tell the story about your Swedish friend the other night.
Speaker 2: I feel like it's too early for me to get
Speaker 2: sidetracked by the Swedish chef. I'll tell this, Just do
Speaker 2: the Swedis chef.
Speaker 1: No, she had a passport full of stamps and a
Speaker 1: binder full of stories that most journalists wouldn't even dare to,
Speaker 1: stories from nuclear testing in the Marshall Islands to post
Speaker 1: war tourism in Sri Lanka and tiger poaching in India.
Speaker 2: Tiger poaching yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah for like the run you know, really which people
Speaker 1: have like tiger skin.
Speaker 2: Runs and doctor Phil and doctor.
Speaker 1: People and doctor Phil. Kim had even slipped into North
Speaker 1: Korea at one point because that's where she found the
Speaker 1: story was.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: She was fearless as much as she was curious and
Speaker 1: was committed to giving a voice to people that the
Speaker 1: world often overlooked. She was born on August tenth, how
Speaker 1: many days from twenty? Who days? Oh wait, no, she
Speaker 1: says butt. On August she was she might don't. On
Speaker 1: August tenth, twenty seventeen, when she stepped was born, No,
Speaker 1: the next line, yeah, it's really.
Speaker 2: Good when someone else writes for you. Around.
Speaker 1: I have gone through and like changed things into my.
Speaker 2: Clearly around.
Speaker 1: On August tenth, in twenty seventeen, when she stepped aboard
Speaker 1: a homemade submarine.
Speaker 2: This is what's why, a homemade submarine.
Speaker 1: And she was getting on it. For a story. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: that day her own story would come to an end.
Speaker 2: Look, homemade, fine for pasta fine for a beautiful source,
Speaker 2: you know what.
Speaker 1: Good for past up, but not fun to do takes
Speaker 1: so long. Oh it's fun to do past.
Speaker 2: Don't get me wrong, But yeah, I think a homemade
Speaker 2: submarine is not.
Speaker 1: I think anything that go like anything that goes, Yes,
Speaker 1: things that make you her, things that take you underwater
Speaker 1: for an extended period of time.
Speaker 2: Yes, let's go through that one.
Speaker 1: Come with me.
Speaker 2: Flounder, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Like submarines obviously, yes, scuba diving. I'm just like, you're
Speaker 1: not meant Humans are not meant to be underwater, No,
Speaker 1: for a long period of time where they can't breathe.
Speaker 2: That's why the fish is trying to lure you in.
Speaker 1: You know you can't breathe under their area. Need some friends,
Speaker 1: right with gills, with gills, especially for a named gil,
Speaker 1: it would be great. So if it is homemade and
Speaker 1: is something that takes you under the water for an
Speaker 1: extended amount of time, like a homemade fish or a submarine,
Speaker 1: which is what Kim War went on on August ten.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 1: Kim was born in nineteen eighty seven in the small
Speaker 1: Swedish town of Trellerborg.
Speaker 2: Trellerburg.
Speaker 1: Yes, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right. I'm
Speaker 1: sorry if I'm not. And both of her parents, Ingrid
Speaker 1: and Joakim, were both journalists.
Speaker 2: As well waquin pinnimps No.
Speaker 1: It was yes, yeah, no, both journals as well, both journalist.
Speaker 1: Storytelling was literally in her blood. Her parents took her
Speaker 1: across Europe before she could even walk or talk. They
Speaker 1: were very well traveled, very learned. They were juggling reporting
Speaker 1: trips with holidays and raising a daughter who was absorbed
Speaker 1: being absolutely everything around her. She was just her brain
Speaker 1: was a little sponge, and she loved her. They taught
Speaker 1: Kim what made a good article, how to ask the
Speaker 1: right questions, and how to always stay curious. So it
Speaker 1: was no surprise when Kim went on to study international
Speaker 1: relations at the London School of Economics. So she's almost
Speaker 1: not right in the head that she earned her Masters
Speaker 1: in journalism from Columbia University. Smart Cookie. By the age
Speaker 1: of twenty six, she was already well and truly carving
Speaker 1: out her own path as a fearless journalist, with bylines
Speaker 1: appearing in publications including Harper's Magazine, The New York Times,
Speaker 1: The Atlantic, Vice, and The Guardian twenty six. She traveled
Speaker 1: the world on competitive grants that recognized her huge talent,
Speaker 1: so she was like getting awarded grants everywhere she went.
Speaker 1: She moved through China, Sri Lanka, u Ganda.
Speaker 2: You Ganda, Oh my god, I'm not going to do
Speaker 2: the song because.
Speaker 1: Uganda is the place in Africa that Book of Mormon
Speaker 1: is set from. Africans are African, but we are Africa.
Speaker 1: But when he says you're Ganda, he goes, where is that?
Speaker 2: Oh bye?
Speaker 1: Like lying king, That's what I thought you were going
Speaker 1: to do. Anyway, She moved through China, Sri Lanka, Uganda, Haiti,
Speaker 1: North Korea, India, and the Marshall Islands. Is all for
Speaker 1: her own reporting on her own. Yeah, she was really
Speaker 1: driven by a commitment to give smaller and marginalized communities
Speaker 1: of voice. Sure, no matter the risk to getting the story.
Speaker 2: She's amazing love him well.
Speaker 1: She didn't just cover stories. She really delved into harder
Speaker 1: for them.
Speaker 2: Wasn't she.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I find it really interesting when journals become so obsessed
Speaker 2: with the story. And I think at some point we'll
Speaker 2: talk about the Golden State Killer and yes, you know
Speaker 2: Michelle McNamara like people like that that become so obsessed
Speaker 2: on one story, even like Ritas Vickibtradas. Yeah, very similar actually,
Speaker 2: and just people that become so obsessed with something.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I just find that so like you know, Watergate like stuff,
Speaker 2: like we've become all.
Speaker 1: Their time and energy and effort into one that is fascinating. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would like I've definitely got the intrigue and curiosity
Speaker 1: to do that. I'm like, this is what I think
Speaker 1: when journos, you know, uncover some massive, big scoop and
Speaker 1: breaking story that they've been working on for six months
Speaker 1: or two years. I'm always like, I'm really jealous that
Speaker 1: they've got the time to do that, Like how are
Speaker 1: they like their employer just going yep, we'll pay you
Speaker 1: a salary and we just trust that you're going to
Speaker 1: come with a good story and go and do your
Speaker 1: own thing. Yeah, yeah, I'll be so good.
Speaker 2: I dream about Helen Ghana last night. I want to
Speaker 2: tell this really quickly, really quickly, horny, I'm Hony Well
Speaker 2: talk about Petty Flair and Helen Ghan. So, Helen Ghana
Speaker 2: I wrote a love letter to in a dream, actually
Speaker 2: did and I'm back with corrections. Red pen through that.
Speaker 1: Ah, she's one of mine. I feel like that is
Speaker 1: the amount of time you and I have been together.
Speaker 1: That is that infiltrating your dreams. I love Helen. What
Speaker 1: that's so funny, that's great. My sister, My sister had
Speaker 1: a dream that when we went down to FESTIVALI, that
Speaker 1: food and wine festival in Tazzi, she dreamt that my
Speaker 1: ex husband was there as well, and it was fine, like,
Speaker 1: you know where, that's fine, but she was like, it
Speaker 1: was really awkward because we wanted to go to Tazzy
Speaker 1: for the weekend to avoid him because he was going
Speaker 1: through a really big controversy because he'd bitten politicians.
Speaker 2: But yes, I can imagine him doing that. Also, your
Speaker 2: beautiful Snaide message Movie four saying I'll have to go
Speaker 2: down and some grapes of mirth and hang out with
Speaker 2: her and go down to Lone Sense Britain was yeah, yeah, anyway,
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: We'll catch up with later later.
Speaker 2: Sorry, we'll catch up later. People people still like went
Speaker 2: in a tell that amazing Swedish chef story that's coming
Speaker 2: that later.
Speaker 1: That's called a hook.
Speaker 2: And no one's sticking around for.
Speaker 1: That when he said at the start, like if you
Speaker 1: want to just listen to the story, people have just
Speaker 1: like searched the name Kim Wall and they've not heard
Speaker 1: this podcast before. They ione listening to the story, like.
Speaker 2: I remember how gun last night. I was small, small.
Speaker 1: Way into the story. You're going, oh, by the way
Speaker 1: she made message mean Niki.
Speaker 2: Britain's in, it really doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: By early twenty seventeen, Kim Wall was living in Copenhagen
Speaker 1: with her partner All seventeen.
Speaker 2: She was born no.
Speaker 1: I said that one before they had only been dating
Speaker 1: for a couple of months, but things had moved really
Speaker 1: quickly and they'd moved into an artist's loft overlooking Copenhagen Harbor.
Speaker 1: Sounds so cool. It was really trendy, which is a
Speaker 1: very trendy word. Trendy. Trendy in like a cool industrial neighborhood,
Speaker 1: kind of like meatpacking District of New York, filled with creatives.
Speaker 1: And interestingly it was also full of amateur rocket builders.
Speaker 2: Yeah really, yes, amateur rocket builders is the scariest thing
Speaker 2: of a verd.
Speaker 1: Just down the road from where Kim and All lived
Speaker 1: was Rocket Madsen's Space Lab, a community attempting to build
Speaker 1: a crowd funded Danish space program.
Speaker 2: That's insane. So like crowd crowd fund to be able
Speaker 2: to do.
Speaker 1: That, crowdfunded version of NASA in.
Speaker 2: You shouldn't be able to do that, should be laws
Speaker 2: in place, build your own rock.
Speaker 1: But you know who would find that fascinating? Kim Wall? Yes,
Speaker 1: of the subject of the story.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: For her as a journalist, this story was irresistible. She
Speaker 1: began interviewing members of this program for a piece that
Speaker 1: she was writing for Wired.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: It always makes me think of Simpsons when he's reading
Speaker 1: and he thinks it's weird.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: And this is the first time Kim Wall heard the
Speaker 1: name Peter Madsen.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: So remember it was called the Rocket mads Space Lab.
Speaker 2: Okay, very different.
Speaker 1: Peter Madsen was an eccentric inventor. Has anyone who's ever
Speaker 1: been labeled an inventor been anything other than extent?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Like La Musk.
Speaker 1: He was a minor celebrity in Denmark. He was a
Speaker 1: man who owned and built rockets, submarines and had a
Speaker 1: reputation for brilliance.
Speaker 2: A reputation for brilliance. Oh my god, who is he
Speaker 2: Brice Courtney. When are you going to build a spaceship? Yes,
Speaker 2: you know, I can't talk. When uh are you going
Speaker 2: to go into how he made all his money? Okay, no, no, great.
Speaker 2: I just want to know because if you're building rockets
Speaker 2: and stuff, and if you're like an eccentric scientist, you
Speaker 2: wonder where that money comes from because there must be
Speaker 2: some sort of investor that goes I believe in you,
Speaker 2: and that means they become more and more eccentric.
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, because there's someone talking to them about how
Speaker 1: well this is crowdfunded.
Speaker 2: Sure, remember remember.
Speaker 1: Right, So Kim reached out to Peter Madsend, but weeks
Speaker 1: passed without her ever hearing back. Then months and she thought,
Speaker 1: I'm never going to hear back from this man. Then suddenly,
Speaker 1: out of the blue, after months of hearing nothing, on
Speaker 1: August tenth, twenty seventeen, Oh.
Speaker 2: My god, twenty days before your birthday.
Speaker 1: That's right, Peter replied he had a test rocket due
Speaker 1: to launch the day prior, but it was canceled because
Speaker 1: of financial issues. Sure, crowdfunding both make that?
Speaker 2: What's gross?
Speaker 1: You were both pictured as well, aren't we? Oh yuck?
Speaker 1: Move on, Move on, move on. So the rocket Launch
Speaker 1: will test. Rocket Launch was meant to have launched there
Speaker 1: before it was canceled. But Peter was eager to stay
Speaker 1: in the spot and have his program remain in the
Speaker 1: spotlight pretty like.
Speaker 2: He wasn't obviously a private person before this. He was
Speaker 2: very centrick and gave lots of years and everything. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Um.
Speaker 2: She'd been writing to him for a while.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he never got back to her. I think
Speaker 1: because he was planning this Rockett think that was what
Speaker 1: was on his mind, and he thought this will be
Speaker 1: in the news anyway, I don't need to get back
Speaker 1: to one. Yeah, Jo. But then when it was canceled,
Speaker 1: he was like, shit, I want to be in the spotlight.
Speaker 1: I need I want a story about me. So not
Speaker 1: only did Peter Madsen agreed to do the interview, he
Speaker 1: actually invited Kim aboard his own personal eighteen foot submarine
Speaker 1: named the UC three Nautilus.
Speaker 2: Great name. Yeah, yeah, that's cool. That's how big is that?
Speaker 2: Eighteen foot? Yeah? But how big is I don't even know?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, if you think six foot is like, you know,
Speaker 1: you're about six.
Speaker 2: Foot, I'm I'm about I'm way tall. That probably twice
Speaker 2: of that you think you're twice six you think that, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm about twelve feet tall, I'm about I'm about four
Speaker 2: subway sandwiches.
Speaker 1: Yes, wait no, into okay, so you're two feet tall? Yes, yes, okay.
Speaker 1: So this submarine was for five point five meters.
Speaker 2: Not huge. No, that's quite small, I would think for
Speaker 2: a submarine for two.
Speaker 1: People to be. I guess you can't make anything bigger
Speaker 1: than six meters by yourself.
Speaker 2: Yes, of course that's the rule.
Speaker 1: That's the rule economics.
Speaker 2: That's really interesting though, because that doesn't seem.
Speaker 1: No, that's not big, like I reckon your couch is
Speaker 1: about two meters because yes, okay, so it's a bit
Speaker 1: more than double.
Speaker 2: That's great for the listeners to about visual What if
Speaker 2: I what if I go, what is the regular size.
Speaker 1: Of a submarine?
Speaker 2: What is? Yeah? What is what is the standard?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: But it's not like I think you can get submarines
Speaker 1: anywhere from like a little thing that one person could
Speaker 1: fit in and like an army submarine that's obviously going
Speaker 1: to be much bigger. That's like saying, what's the standard
Speaker 1: size of a boat.
Speaker 2: It is approximately sixty to eighty meters.
Speaker 1: So yeah, but what like what kind of submarine?
Speaker 2: Surely is standard submarine? Get over it often range between
Speaker 2: attack submarines.
Speaker 1: Often range you're asking me, you're giving me.
Speaker 2: Attack often range between seventy and one hundred and fifteen meters.
Speaker 1: This one is five and a half.
Speaker 2: Ballistic missile submarine.
Speaker 1: I don't like this has got a funny place.
Speaker 2: I often exceed one hundred and fifty meters. Okay, yeah, yeah, right,
Speaker 2: So there can be lots of different sizes, but this
Speaker 2: does seem.
Speaker 1: Can I show you how far we are to the story?
Speaker 2: Doesn't matter? This is I've got five hours anyway. I
Speaker 2: feel like that is quite small for a submarine.
Speaker 1: It's a small submarine there, I said it.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, And if you've got a fish next to
Speaker 2: you going come down, come down.
Speaker 1: Come on in the water is fine, just fine under us?
Speaker 1: See under us. He it was supposed to be a
Speaker 1: quick ride, n As pleases to be a one hour
Speaker 1: interview aboard the submarine, just enough time for Kim to
Speaker 1: grab a story and make it back to the going
Speaker 1: away party that she and all were hosting that night.
Speaker 2: On the Submarine Doctor, or if you call it that,
Speaker 2: or the submarine submerged.
Speaker 1: I think submarines are. Once they're in the water, they're
Speaker 1: always submerged. They don't like to tarn for a while. No, no,
Speaker 1: I think just one doctor, yeah, doctor birthed, birthed. You
Speaker 1: didn't ask me why they're having going away party?
Speaker 2: Going away party.
Speaker 1: They were set to move to Beijing in a week's time,
Speaker 1: and while the timing wasn't ideal to go and do
Speaker 1: an hour interview for this exclusive story a week before
Speaker 1: they were moving and the night of the going away party,
Speaker 1: Kim was a journalist who would never pass up a
Speaker 1: good story.
Speaker 2: Bloody Candy's white over here.
Speaker 1: So all agreed to start the party without her if
Speaker 1: she wasn't back in time, and she promised to join
Speaker 1: everyone as soon as the interview wrapped up. That is
Speaker 1: like green flag behavior, babe. If you like, if you
Speaker 1: want to do this and you need to do this,
Speaker 1: and you think it's going to be a great story,
Speaker 1: go don't worry about us, Come join us whenever.
Speaker 2: I'm joining us. Later, on Valentine's Day, met just opening
Speaker 2: up a love letter written back with just all these
Speaker 2: red lines.
Speaker 1: Did you say anything back or just this is the
Speaker 1: red lines? That's my love language? Correct you? So at
Speaker 1: around seven pm on August ten, Kim walked the short
Speaker 1: distance from her loft apartment to the dock. It was
Speaker 1: so close that all and their guests could actually see
Speaker 1: where the submarine was from their apartment window. They watched
Speaker 1: Kim climb aboard the Nautilus with Peter. They were like, oh, look,
Speaker 1: we'll see you after they could actually say. It made
Speaker 1: just after eight pm. So an hour later, Kim sent
Speaker 1: all a text that only in hindsight feels a little chilling.
Speaker 1: I'm still alive bt W.
Speaker 2: She right, okay, yeah, cook cook could be quite a
Speaker 2: fun thing to write, like, I'm fine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm still alive. But going down.
Speaker 2: Now, going down now.
Speaker 1: I love you. A moment later her final text, he
Speaker 1: brought coffee and cookies though, and those were the last
Speaker 1: words anyone would ever hear from Kim.
Speaker 2: Or my god, So going down like that. So that
Speaker 2: was a part of the plan though.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it was like kind of going on board,
Speaker 1: doing their interview in there, and then he's probably gone.
Speaker 1: You want to see how it works, Like let's just
Speaker 1: go because it was only meant to be an hour
Speaker 1: the whole thing, and after an hour she's gone, I'm
Speaker 1: still alive. Don't worry, but we're going down now. I
Speaker 1: love you. He's got coffee and cookies.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: What happened next inside that submarine would become one of
Speaker 1: the most shocking and weirdest true crime cases in Scandinavian history,
Speaker 1: but just in history.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So who was Peter Madsen? Cue to many in Denmark?
Speaker 1: He was an eccentric inventor and Elon Musk type. Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course, with big dreams of building rockets, submarines and
Speaker 1: conquering space travel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and economical car.
Speaker 6: Are you okay?
Speaker 1: What happened then?
Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I was trying to say something about
Speaker 2: the Tesla, but then I kind of got confused.
Speaker 1: Economical color. Yeah, my brother in law has a Tessa Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: too many in Denmark Madsen was I've already read that
Speaker 1: whole sentence. Born on January twelfth? Why do I always
Speaker 1: mark up the sentence before the birthday? So sorry, this
Speaker 1: episode is going to go for five hours. He was
Speaker 1: born on January twelve, nineteen seventy one.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's like nine months before your birthday.
Speaker 1: So what are you saying? Oh my god about what
Speaker 1: if I missed?
Speaker 2: You?
Speaker 1: Just be an idiot. Fuck, I'm gonna be here for
Speaker 1: three days. I need for someone to be His parents
Speaker 1: were Annie and Carl, and they lived in a small
Speaker 1: town just south of Copenhagen. Is it Copenhagen or Copenhagen
Speaker 1: I think, but I think like anglicized we.
Speaker 2: Call it Copenhagenen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, I'm going to call it that. Annie was
Speaker 1: more so Annie and Kyle were his parents. Annie was
Speaker 1: more than thirty years younger than Karl. Oh wow, okay,
Speaker 1: and she already had three sons from previous relationships.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Boys, who Carl was allegedly abusive towards Oh my god,
Speaker 1: thirty more than thirty years age different time, Toby Maguire,
Speaker 1: spider Man. Yep, yep, he is allegedly dating someone who
Speaker 1: is thirty years younger than him and one year older
Speaker 1: than his daughter.
Speaker 2: Oh that's crazy, that's crazy.
Speaker 1: He started dating a twenty year old Marita and literally
Speaker 1: just told you. When Peter was six, Annie left Carl
Speaker 1: and took her children with her. A few years later.
Speaker 1: Peter did return to live with his father, however, and
Speaker 1: the two of them shared a powerful bond. They were
Speaker 1: both obsessed with rockets, sure so that his early years
Speaker 1: were a little bit tumultuous. Yes, yeah, yeah, there was.
Speaker 1: There was alleged abuse, and there was also the kind
Speaker 1: of going back and forth between like all the kids
Speaker 1: went with mum and they didn't see for ages, but
Speaker 1: then after a few years went with dad only and
Speaker 1: it was yet very rock matuous, rockety.
Speaker 2: Just go with tumultuous. I like what you said as wrongs.
Speaker 1: In high school, Peter's fascination with rockets and engineering was
Speaker 1: really encouraged by his chemistry and physics teacher, and by
Speaker 1: the age of just fifteen, he had built his first
Speaker 1: rocket fifteen, Yeah, a one meter tour creation. You have
Speaker 1: anything to say about size of that? I'm happy with that? Yeah, fun, okay,
Speaker 1: fuck that shot one hundred meters into the air before
Speaker 1: crashing back down. It didn't matter.
Speaker 2: He was hooked. Yeah, yeah, and I'll say yeah. It
Speaker 2: just realized I don't have any idea of size of
Speaker 2: rockets or care about that, but I really care about
Speaker 2: size ands.
Speaker 1: Apparently, when Peter was nineteen, his father died, and Peter
Speaker 1: threw himself even deeper into their shared obsession. It was
Speaker 1: kind of like, I don't have my dad to do
Speaker 1: this with anymore. So I'm going to do it even
Speaker 1: harder like this now for both of us.
Speaker 2: Yeah right.
Speaker 1: He joined the Danish Amateur Rocket Club. Sure he didn't
Speaker 1: quite fit in imagine not fitting into amateur pretty weird.
Speaker 1: While he studied, studied welding, refrigeration, mechanics, engineering, anything that
Speaker 1: he could that would help him build the machines that
Speaker 1: he imagined he wanted to build.
Speaker 2: Even study refrigeration, yes, okay, kitchen, kitchen.
Speaker 1: Yes, he didn't actually have a formal engineering degree. He
Speaker 1: would study engineer and study all around that, and members
Speaker 1: of this Danish amateur rocket club found him difficult. His
Speaker 1: enthusiasm was certainly there, but so was his ego. I'm
Speaker 1: literally I've just realized in my head i am picturing yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Conflict seemed to follow Peter Elon wherever he went. In
Speaker 1: the early two thousands, he shifted his attention under.
Speaker 2: Water, okay, under the see.
Speaker 1: At the Copenhagen Port, he built three submarines. They were called,
Speaker 1: Now this is so weird. The three names were Frayer, Cracker,
Speaker 1: and the u See. Three nautialists.
Speaker 2: That's really funny. That's funny on him. If you knew
Speaker 2: he was going to make three and call one.
Speaker 1: Just like a lady's name. Ye, cracker. I don't know
Speaker 1: what that means.
Speaker 2: No, that must be like turn your phone on silent.
Speaker 1: That's what messag Why is she messaging you so much?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: The you see three Nautialists was famously or those feet long.
Speaker 1: Wait wait, okay, I think I should have edited this better.
Speaker 1: I think that there has been a typo in this.
Speaker 1: So when earlier I said eighteen feet long, it was
Speaker 1: actually fifty eight feet.
Speaker 2: That's quite that's quite different six feet wide. So I
Speaker 2: think I was right to have my I really thought.
Speaker 1: And I'm going there's all different sides.
Speaker 2: It's not that small. No, fifty eight not to believe
Speaker 2: anymore at all. Okay, so that's a normal size maybe
Speaker 2: a normal size.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, No, you know when I said they can
Speaker 1: be small, I was thinking of that. You know the
Speaker 1: Titanic submersible. Oh I went down. Yeah, that's that's like kind.
Speaker 2: Of a little yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but maybe that's why they called it submersible, not
Speaker 1: a submarine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so it's a normal size submarine.
Speaker 1: Guys, I've done normal research for this, and as well
Speaker 1: as well it was you love this line. Sorry, snorted,
Speaker 1: you love this line after that whole discussion about how small.
Speaker 1: So the Nautilus was fifty eight feet long, six feet
Speaker 1: wide and the largest privately built submarine in the world.
Speaker 2: Here I was believe you think five meters like.
Speaker 1: Five and a half. I said, like, that's twice this couch.
Speaker 2: It was the one I guess, and you're going, come on,
Speaker 2: there can be all different sizes. It was the love
Speaker 2: of love. You can't just say it's twice his couch
Speaker 2: and I go, oh, I guess. I've got the cookies
Speaker 2: and coffee. Don't worry about it. From twice my couch.
Speaker 1: It was the largest okay, privately submarine in the world
Speaker 1: at the time.
Speaker 2: Peter had lived in Yeah, okay, definitely more than twice
Speaker 2: my couch.
Speaker 1: But even though he lived in the submarine under the scene,
Speaker 1: his real first love was rockets, and in two thousand
Speaker 1: and eight he had co founded Copenhagen Suborbitals with an
Speaker 1: ar connect named Christian. Their mission was to build a
Speaker 1: crowd funded rocket and send Peter into space.
Speaker 2: Crazy crazy Is it a crowd crowd fund of rocks
Speaker 2: and then go in it? Yeah? Well, Katy Perry, get
Speaker 2: over it.
Speaker 1: Get over it. For six years. The partnership between Christian
Speaker 1: van Bengston and Peter Manson worked until it didn't. Peter
Speaker 1: hated the idea of anyone acting like his boss, and
Speaker 1: tensions rose between them again sounds like Elon Muskin does,
Speaker 1: it really does, and the relationship really soured. Eventually Peter
Speaker 1: walked out and he took several workers with him.
Speaker 2: Sure, okay.
Speaker 1: Then in twenty fourteen, so that was two thousand and
Speaker 1: eight they started that. In twenty fourteen he launched his
Speaker 1: own rival company. Oh my god, yeah, RML space Lab
Speaker 1: rocket Madson. That's from before Rocketman, Spacelan, Spacelab, Spaceland, Oh
Speaker 1: my god. His goal for RML space Lab was to
Speaker 1: beat Copenhagen suborterbles and sub orbitals to a successful rocket launch.
Speaker 1: This became a personal Yeah.
Speaker 2: He's obsessed with that.
Speaker 1: Two stupid rich men were not stupid, I mean quite learned.
Speaker 2: Well, built a submarine over five meters and so they're
Speaker 2: quite quite smart.
Speaker 1: Smart smart, I mean just like you know, stupid in
Speaker 1: that they made their life mission to just beat the
Speaker 1: other person in crowd funding spaceship to.
Speaker 2: But you look at the wealth, like the amount, so
Speaker 2: like people who are crowdfunding a rocket or a submarine.
Speaker 2: They are wealthy, elite people like that's why to have
Speaker 2: that amount of money to go because it's not a charity.
Speaker 1: You know, it's exactly I was going to say, spend
Speaker 1: it on something else. Exactly, something else, many other things.
Speaker 1: Stop putting people into space for not.
Speaker 2: To be there.
Speaker 1: We don't have to be there. And I know, well
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I assume and believe there must
Speaker 1: be reasons we send people into space more than just
Speaker 1: to show that we can.
Speaker 2: Yep, As my granddad said when I was going to
Speaker 2: go overseas for the first time, there's bits of jum
Speaker 2: Bunner you ain't seen yet. What's John Banner is the
Speaker 2: smallest little town, not even a town. It's one road
Speaker 2: outside of current Borough.
Speaker 1: And so he was saying, why would you.
Speaker 2: Why would you bother going over to London where I
Speaker 2: saw this one offul musical book a woman. He said,
Speaker 2: there's bits of jum Bunny you ain't even seen yet.
Speaker 2: Oh he's a current Borough man, And he said, no,
Speaker 2: there's bits of jum Bunny ain't seen yet.
Speaker 1: Why did you bother going to London? We've got London
Speaker 1: at home. Yea, Jim Banna.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my dad goes to the airport sometimes and just
Speaker 2: sits there and goes. You just see where everyone's going.
Speaker 2: They're all going different places. You can see the world.
Speaker 2: Why would you go anywhere when the world comes to you? What?
Speaker 1: He sits at the airport to watch people. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: travels from Philip Island to.
Speaker 2: If you want to go one time and said, do
Speaker 2: you want to come and see at the airport? What
Speaker 2: so you can watch everyone for what We'll see where
Speaker 2: everyone's going. He likes to guess where people are going.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, his heart is too pure. I cannot
Speaker 1: but yeah.
Speaker 2: But so that's that's quite an elite thing to be.
Speaker 2: Like the amount of money I would take in in
Speaker 2: one city even fuel the rocket.
Speaker 1: In Copenhagen alone, there are two rival companies both making
Speaker 1: private rockets just to because they can.
Speaker 2: I guess that's nuts.
Speaker 1: By twenty seventeen, Peter had scheduled a test launch, but
Speaker 1: financial problems, as we said earlier, forced that to be
Speaker 1: canceled and a five submarine half. Financial problems stopped the
Speaker 1: launch from going ahead, and the setback really bruised his ego.
Speaker 1: So when journalists Kim Waull had reached out again, saying
Speaker 1: I'd like to interview you. He said yes, and he
Speaker 1: offered her something irresistible. On that very day that he
Speaker 1: was emailing her. He offered her a ride aboard the
Speaker 1: UC three Nautilus and an exclusive interview with the man
Speaker 1: behind what was known as the mechanical Whale.
Speaker 7: Of course, so big really it was. So she knew
Speaker 7: she was going to go down on the ride, but
Speaker 7: probably didn't.
Speaker 2: Know how long.
Speaker 1: Well, yes, but no, she'd said it was an hour interview.
Speaker 1: She was going to be there for an hour and
Speaker 1: then come back to the party afterwards. And after an
Speaker 1: hour she had messaged all saying still alive, I'm going
Speaker 1: down Like so it was.
Speaker 2: Kind of a.
Speaker 1: Like have a little like you know what it's like,
Speaker 1: cookie has coffee. Yes. By ten pm on the night
Speaker 1: of the interview, something didn't feel right to all. The
Speaker 1: going away party that Kim was supposed to return to
Speaker 1: after a quick one hour trip on the Nautilus was
Speaker 1: starting to wind down. The harbor was dark, and Kim
Speaker 1: still hadn't returned home to the party, and she was
Speaker 1: only meant to be gone for gone totally for two
Speaker 1: hours max. For interview is an hour, Maybe there'll be
Speaker 1: some preamble, maybe have a walk back two hours. Max
Speaker 1: All tried calling her again and again. In the end
Speaker 1: he had called her a dozen times with no answer.
Speaker 1: So when the party wrapped up everyone left. He walked
Speaker 1: down to Peter's like the dock where Peter's workshop was,
Speaker 1: which was just minutes from their apartment, hoping and assuming
Speaker 1: he would see any signs of Kim. Peeking inside of
Speaker 1: Peter's workshop, All could see that the nautilust still wasn't there,
Speaker 1: and that meant that Kim and Peter must have still
Speaker 1: been out in the water. By two thirty am, panic
Speaker 1: had well and truly set in, and All called the
Speaker 1: police and the Danish coast Guard before jumping on his
Speaker 1: bike to search the shoreline himself. Isn't that just like
Speaker 1: the cute Like it's just such a Copenhagen picture. It's like,
Speaker 1: ich on my bike.
Speaker 2: And probably think at that point there's been a terrible accident.
Speaker 1: Got of course they're underwater and no one's seen them again.
Speaker 4: Horrible.
Speaker 1: As the sun rose over Copenhagen that morning, there was
Speaker 1: still no sign of Kim, Peter nor the submarine helicopters
Speaker 1: were sweeping the bay and the Coastguard boats traced the coastline.
Speaker 1: Kim's parents were alerted, and by morning Danish media had
Speaker 1: picked up the story. Had the homemade submarines sunk? Had
Speaker 1: something gone terribly wrong underwater? No one knew, No one
Speaker 1: had heard a thing. Nearly twelve hours after Kim vanished,
Speaker 1: at ten thirty am, authorities finally made contact with Peter
Speaker 1: after the nautilus had been spotted from a lighthouse.
Speaker 2: Oh okay. Peter spoke to.
Speaker 1: The lighthouse over the radio. He was calm and casual,
Speaker 1: as if nothing was wrong. We're fine, he said, before
Speaker 1: telling them that he was heading back to the harbor
Speaker 1: then and there. But thirty minutes later, a fishing boat
Speaker 1: spotted the submarine in Kyrger Bay, away from the dock.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, right.
Speaker 1: A fisherman reported seeing Peter pop out of the hatch
Speaker 1: wave and then did appear back down inside. So this
Speaker 1: is like a typical looking submarine, right the bit the
Speaker 1: pops out the top of the water and that's all
Speaker 1: you can see, and the submarin itself is out, so
Speaker 1: he had said. Authorities from like the lighthouses spotted they've
Speaker 1: obviously put out like a we're looking.
Speaker 2: For this show you were searching for it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the light. Some people in the lighthouse have gone, yes,
Speaker 1: it is here. Authorities have been able to make radio
Speaker 1: contact with him. Knowing where the location was. He's gone, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're all good, heading back now, don't worry about it.
Speaker 1: Then half an hour later he pops out the top.
Speaker 1: Someone in a kerga bay sees him. He waves and
Speaker 1: pops back down in. Then moments later the nautilus began
Speaker 1: to sink. Peter Madsen resurfaced just himself, leaped into the
Speaker 1: resurface through the hatch, jumped into the water and swam
Speaker 1: toward the fishing boat as the submarine slipped beneath the
Speaker 1: surface behind him.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, what a sign.
Speaker 1: Like this guy's popped up from submarine, wavedlight and then
Speaker 1: it's sinking and he just comes out and swims over
Speaker 1: to you.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: The fisherman took Peter aboard and brought him to shore,
Speaker 1: which was just four miles away. Reporters had swarmed the
Speaker 1: dock by this point were waiting with cameras rolling and
Speaker 1: microphone outstretched. In the footage of Peter climbing up onto
Speaker 1: the dock, like from getting out from this fisherman's boat.
Speaker 1: He gives a thumbs up to the camera. He said
Speaker 1: he was really upset the submarine had sunk, but that's
Speaker 1: all he said. Made no mention of where the submarine was,
Speaker 1: and there was no mention of Kim what. Kim's family
Speaker 1: stood off to the side of this press conference, horrified.
Speaker 1: The media didn't yet know that anyone else had been
Speaker 1: on board. It was only Kim's loved ones who knew
Speaker 1: the gravity of what was unfolding right in front of
Speaker 1: their eyes. Police quickly escorted Peter away for questioning, and
Speaker 1: that's when his story began to form. Peter claimed that
Speaker 1: there had been a mechanical failure on board the Nautilus,
Speaker 1: explaining that the blast tanks ballast probably balance ballast tanks,
Speaker 1: which are tanks that can fill with water so that
Speaker 1: the sub can submerge, but then they can empty their
Speaker 1: lift it back up again. That's like how a submarine
Speaker 1: goes under water and up again. He said that those
Speaker 1: tanks had malfunctioned, so the submarines started taking on water
Speaker 1: and he couldn't save it.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: He insisted that Kim was fine and he insists to police,
Speaker 1: because they were anyones that said anything about it. Again,
Speaker 1: he hadn't said anything to media, insisted that she was fine,
Speaker 1: that he had dropped her off safely on the coastline
Speaker 1: where she lived, of refshelun.
Speaker 2: So he went back to where the party kind of
Speaker 2: you could see it from, dropped her off and then
Speaker 2: went back up by fine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I went out, and that's when the ballanced things malfunctioned.
Speaker 1: Investigators were able to rule that theory out almost immediately.
Speaker 1: The area was blanketed with like CCTV, and when they
Speaker 1: pulled all of the footage, that showed exactly what they
Speaker 1: needed to know that no one had ever been dropped
Speaker 1: off that night, at least of book Kim. There was
Speaker 1: no sign of her anywhere, and the holes in Peter's
Speaker 1: story were beginning to show on August twelve, So the
Speaker 1: day that he reappeared was August eleven. Then the next
Speaker 1: day Peter appeared before a judge in a private hearing,
Speaker 1: and there his story changed again. He now admitted that
Speaker 1: Kim had not been dropped off and said that she
Speaker 1: died in an accident.
Speaker 2: Died in an accident and waited.
Speaker 1: Before he was like in front of the judge who
Speaker 1: was kind of changing him with wow, say, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: I admit she died, but it was an accident. According
Speaker 1: to this new version of events, Peter that he claimed
Speaker 1: that the one hundred and fifty pound hatch of like
Speaker 1: that you pop up on the top of submarine had
Speaker 1: come loose and had struck Kim on the head while
Speaker 1: she was trying to go up through it. He said
Speaker 1: he found her in a pool of her own blood,
Speaker 1: and he panicked falling into a depressed sieve, states so
Speaker 1: severe he had to lay down for a few hours
Speaker 1: to sleep it off.
Speaker 2: A few hours to sleep, adrenaline would hit and you
Speaker 2: wouldn't be able.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'm so upset to find this woman dead.
Speaker 1: I'd better sleep for a few hours. This fucking guy.
Speaker 1: On waking from his slumber, Peter says he made the
Speaker 1: decision to bury him out at sea, so he's left
Speaker 1: her dead in a pool of her blood and slept
Speaker 1: for a few hours.
Speaker 2: To get her out.
Speaker 1: Investigators immediately questioned this logic. The Nautilus wasn't in the
Speaker 1: middle of the ocean. It was in cell phone range
Speaker 1: of Copenhagen, in a really busy shipping channel. Why hadn't
Speaker 1: he serviced immediately.
Speaker 2: And called for help accident?
Speaker 1: His story just simply didn't add up. So the police
Speaker 1: changed him then and there with involuntary manslaughter, which is
Speaker 1: interesting to me. Why involuntary. I guess they were believing
Speaker 1: made that he'd well, they weren't because they were like.
Speaker 2: I guess if they're saying that, and.
Speaker 1: Maybe they believed that the thing hit her on the head.
Speaker 1: The fact that he didn't need immediately call authorities is
Speaker 1: what made it like more.
Speaker 2: That's really strange.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that was the initial change they gave him
Speaker 1: while they continued to gather evidence and try to work
Speaker 1: out what had actually happened. Yeah, okay, they knew he
Speaker 1: wasn't telling the full truth. They just needed time to
Speaker 1: prove it and work out what the truth actually was. Wow,
Speaker 1: on August thirteen. So the following day again divers recovered
Speaker 1: the sunken nautilus and towed it ashore. Much of the
Speaker 1: physical evidence had been washed away by the seawater.
Speaker 4: Oh wow.
Speaker 1: I don't know why they waited that long term, but
Speaker 1: the mechanics of the summarine were able to tell a
Speaker 1: clear story. There was nothing wrong with the holderless at all.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, there had been no malfunction. The sinking
Speaker 1: was very intentional, and investigators now knew whatever had happened
Speaker 1: to kim Wall, Peter was hiding it. Dunt dunt du
Speaker 1: dun dun dum. In the days after the Nautilus say,
Speaker 1: investigators worked around the clock searching for any sign of
Speaker 1: kim Wall. Of course, so I mean it goes. It
Speaker 1: goes without saying, I haven't said it. Kim Wall wasn't
Speaker 1: on board, no, okay. Peter remained in custody while police divers,
Speaker 1: helicopters and specialized search teams swept Copenhagen.
Speaker 2: Harger Hager Hager than ever, just.
Speaker 1: Trying to get really into the Copenhagen Harbor and Kruger Bay.
Speaker 1: Even cadaver search dogs were brought in, which I've never like,
Speaker 1: how would they like in the water.
Speaker 2: No, they're taking them. They brought the submarine back.
Speaker 1: Yes, but like it had been in the water for
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting, like like bringing a dogs. I
Speaker 1: would think that the salt water and everything would.
Speaker 2: Make it hard. Yeah, I thought you thought that they
Speaker 2: were making themselves swim.
Speaker 1: Yes, get out with the fish. The fish. Period of time,
Speaker 1: there was still no sign of Kim. Then on August
Speaker 1: twenty one, Oh my god. Yeah, eleven days later after
Speaker 1: she disappeared birthday, Yes, good math, a cyclist riding along
Speaker 1: the beach several miles from where the naudialist had launched
Speaker 1: noticed something pale near the shoreline.
Speaker 3: God.
Speaker 1: On closer inspection, he realized it was a do you
Speaker 1: want to guess what it was?
Speaker 2: Kim?
Speaker 1: It was part of Kim.
Speaker 2: My god.
Speaker 1: It was a woman's torso, weighted down with pieces of metal,
Speaker 1: presumably to try to keep it submerged water.
Speaker 2: Trying to think, oh my god, I didn't know. I've
Speaker 2: heard a little bit about this story. I didn't know
Speaker 2: that she was found. Yeah, wow, this.
Speaker 1: Is this is really lucky.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: There were no limbs nor head. Oh god, it was
Speaker 1: just a torso, and the condition of the remains made
Speaker 1: it immediately clear that some some serious violence had occurred.
Speaker 1: There were fifteen stab walls present, mainly in the groin area.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: The location was just south of Copenhagen, in the same
Speaker 1: bay where Peter had been rescued.
Speaker 5: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's obviously dumped her in, Oh my god. But
Speaker 2: also like just oh, just dissecting her is just yeah,
Speaker 2: oh my god.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Two days later, forensic testing confirmed that the remains
Speaker 1: did belong to Kim Wall. The torso painted a picture
Speaker 1: far beyond anything Peter had claimed. Absolutely, Here's claim of
Speaker 1: an accidental death by the hitting her on the head
Speaker 1: and a panicked burial at sea no longer aligned at
Speaker 1: all with the gruesome evidence at hand. Detectives pressed him
Speaker 1: over and over for hours and hours and days and days.
Speaker 2: With the new evidence.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and he wasn't able to offer up anything
Speaker 1: that made any sense.
Speaker 3: What.
Speaker 1: September fifth, Madson appeared in court again, with police now
Speaker 1: requesting that he remained in custody while the investigation continued.
Speaker 1: So involuntary man slaughshup probably wouldn't usually justify like a
Speaker 1: custodial like a romand yes, but because it was like,
Speaker 1: we've only charged him with this while we work out
Speaker 1: what actually happened, keep him behind bars. Wow, But Peter
Speaker 1: was sticking to the original explanation that there had been
Speaker 1: an accident involving the hatch door then on October sixth,
Speaker 1: so it was August ten that she went out with
Speaker 1: him on the submarine. On October six divers searching the
Speaker 1: sea bed made a breakthrough.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: They found a garbage bag containing a knife and Kim's clothes. Wow.
Speaker 1: They then found another God.
Speaker 2: Would never imagine to find that ever.
Speaker 1: Especially like two months later when they've been searching everything.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Clearly Peter wasn't expecting you found it either. Then they
Speaker 1: found another garbage bag with a leg, then another bag
Speaker 1: with the other leg, and then you can imagine other
Speaker 1: bags with the rest of the rest of Kim was found,
Speaker 1: and they had all been carefully contained and weighted down.
Speaker 1: Forensic experts examined the skull and ruled that there were
Speaker 1: no signs of head injury, and like, so, first of all,
Speaker 1: they were like, the cause of death wasn't a head injury,
Speaker 1: but also Peter had said she was hit on the
Speaker 1: head by the hatch. Yes, of course, so no matter
Speaker 1: how she's died, it wasn't that there was no evidence
Speaker 1: of any trauma to the head at all, let alone
Speaker 1: something that would have been fatal like Peter had said.
Speaker 1: So immediately his explanation completely collapsed.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Right, this is my favorite part of this story. Favorite
Speaker 1: sounds is the wrong work story, but I feel like
Speaker 1: this is the part that you'll remember, because this part
Speaker 1: of this story makes the whole thing sound like it's
Speaker 1: made up for a television movie.
Speaker 2: Yes, because.
Speaker 1: All the while, while Peter was building his rockets and
Speaker 1: his submarines and all of this was going on in
Speaker 1: real time, the guy who liked attention was being filmed.
Speaker 1: At the time of Kim's disappearance, an Australian filmmaker named
Speaker 1: Emma Sullivan had been documenting Peter and his team at
Speaker 1: RML Space Lab for a documentary.
Speaker 2: Yes, I do remember this, yep.
Speaker 1: Months earlier.
Speaker 2: He's like a Bond villain, isn't he. Yes, Yeah, he
Speaker 2: loves the attention loves Yeah.
Speaker 1: He was having a documentary made about him.
Speaker 2: Probably commissioned by him as well.
Speaker 1: Crow crowdsourced Confunded, where he has taken a reporter onto
Speaker 1: his submarine and so far in the story you don't
Speaker 1: know what's happened, but she's been killed. He's lied about
Speaker 1: it that we know for sure. They're making of his
Speaker 1: being anyway, Seventeen months earlier, this filmmaker Emma do you know?
Speaker 1: Do you know? Emma Sullivan, which to a journalist called
Speaker 1: Emma O'Sullivan that her imagine was like friends with her
Speaker 1: at work that she was by.
Speaker 2: I'm going to love to see if she hasn't made
Speaker 2: any comment about all this as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she had watched a ted talk that Peter Madsen
Speaker 1: had delivered. Of course he had. It's just he's so
Speaker 1: ill a musk, and she was fascinated by his dream
Speaker 1: of launching himself into space in a homemade lockw. Crockett.
Speaker 1: Of course, so Emma Sullivan reached out to him via
Speaker 1: email in hopes of capturing the journey and making a documentary.
Speaker 1: He of course agreed and warned in an email reply, Emma,
Speaker 1: you were about to submerge into quite a snake pit, okay,
Speaker 1: and how like?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: When Kim ordered the Nautilus on August ten, Emma and
Speaker 1: her crew were already deep into filming and making this documentary.
Speaker 1: The cameras had been rolling for months, capturing Peter's quirks,
Speaker 1: his temper, his temper, his unpredictable mood swings, and the
Speaker 1: unwavering admiration of the volunteers who all worked unto him.
Speaker 2: So they just loved him so much. Yes, I couldn't
Speaker 2: believe it to work with this guy. Get voluntary.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for him, we get to work for him for
Speaker 1: no money so he can make this narcissistic little man
Speaker 1: ego rocket ship to launch himself off into space, just
Speaker 1: so people will know his name and he can feel
Speaker 1: like he has a bigger dick wow. On camera, his
Speaker 1: staff spoke about him like he was a true genius.
Speaker 1: Some had joined the lab purely for the chance to
Speaker 1: work with him, and Peter thrived on the attention and
Speaker 1: the idea of being the center of a grand narrative,
Speaker 1: of course, but the documentary also captured something else. In
Speaker 1: the weeks leading up to Kim Wall's disappearance, Peter's behavior
Speaker 1: on camera had grown stranger and more erratic. On August eleven,
Speaker 1: the day after Kim vanished, Emma's cameras were rolling as
Speaker 1: the team gathered around a screen and watched the news break.
Speaker 1: Peter Madson, after coming back on to shore, was charged
Speaker 1: in connection with Tim Wall's disappearance. Kim do I said, Tim, Tim,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Ki, Kim, I'm sorry. That was awful. So
Speaker 1: Emma and her camera crew were devastated and in disbelief.
Speaker 1: They've been working closely with this man for months, and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, he's been changed In relation to
Speaker 1: someone's disappearance.
Speaker 2: Of course, and then as someone who's making this, you'd
Speaker 2: start to go, did I see he signs? With their
Speaker 2: footage I could bring up to actually go, well I
Speaker 2: saw him snap there or something.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: They had really admired him. They robby knew he like.
Speaker 1: They didn't like his temper and his mood swings stuff centric, eccentric.
Speaker 2: So I think that.
Speaker 1: Word eccentric is never a compliment.
Speaker 2: There never is, and it means a lot of different things.
Speaker 1: It means this guy's a bit of a dick live wi.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: They were now being confronted with the possibility that the
Speaker 1: man they had idolized and were choosing to put on
Speaker 1: the screen. And they're looking at all the staff of
Speaker 1: these people that really idolized him could be capable of
Speaker 1: hiding someone's death.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: As the investigation progressed and new evidence emerged, the documentary
Speaker 1: captured the staff's slow recording as they began to reflect
Speaker 1: on their own relationships with Peter.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: So the document like the film crew actually have.
Speaker 2: Yes's been released all right, okay, ye.
Speaker 1: Captured the reactions of Peter's staff and his underlings. The
Speaker 1: cameras caught their reactions to them watching the news, watching
Speaker 1: the breaking news that he had been charged, and then
Speaker 1: kind of kept filming over the coming days and weeks,
Speaker 1: and then kind of coming to terms with maybe like
Speaker 1: switching out of their like whatever their minds had thought before,
Speaker 1: and kind of going hang on, like everything becoming a
Speaker 1: bit clearer. Wow at what would inevitably end up being
Speaker 1: the trial. Footage from Emma's film would be referred to
Speaker 1: as instrumental in spoiler alert convicting Peter.
Speaker 2: Wow, this is available? Is it somewhere like that?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: It was. I watched a new.
Speaker 2: Okay, right, I need to watch it.
Speaker 1: It was all there, recorded before anyone realized they were
Speaker 1: documenting the prelude.
Speaker 2: To a crime. Wow.
Speaker 1: So let's talk more about who Peter was. Among his
Speaker 1: loyal circle of volunteers, there was one woman, an in
Speaker 1: turn whose identity has remained to protect it. We'll call
Speaker 1: her Kate. Throughout the documentary, Kate appears as one of
Speaker 1: his most devoted admirers, but as the evidence against him
Speaker 1: begins to pile up, Kate finds herself scrolling back through
Speaker 1: old text messages with Peter. Exchanges she had once brushed
Speaker 1: off as his dark humor suddenly in this new light
Speaker 1: felt a bit more sinister. On the very day that
Speaker 1: Kim borded the Nautilus, Peter had texted Kate, Nautilus is
Speaker 1: sailing so good. Let's go on a trip tomorrow.
Speaker 2: Wow. This is the day that she was Kim was born,
Speaker 2: so that the day after he was like, let's go
Speaker 2: on trip soon.
Speaker 1: He's the day she was boarding. He sent a message
Speaker 1: to Kate saying, let's go out tomorrow. In another interview,
Speaker 1: Kate revealed a series of earlier messages she had received
Speaker 1: from Peter. At the time, she had joked that she
Speaker 1: should send her threat what she called quote threatening texts
Speaker 1: to mote her sorry. She had joked that Peter should
Speaker 1: send her threatening texts to motivate her to work. This
Speaker 1: is how Peter replied, You must be bound in Nautilus.
Speaker 1: I bind you to pierce you with a skewer. Then
Speaker 1: the pocket knife comes forward. I'm looking at your throat,
Speaker 1: dot dot dot where is the pulse. I have a
Speaker 1: murder plan ready, which is a great pleasure. We're going
Speaker 1: to make a movie with you, and you have no choice.
Speaker 1: Now we're going to cut you into little pieces.
Speaker 2: He's sending this to his intern yes, and then saying,
Speaker 2: you know before saying we should go out together, and
Speaker 2: he's going he's saying he's got a murder plan.
Speaker 1: Yes, she has said.
Speaker 2: She's a sexual kink that she was thinking at the time,
Speaker 2: what was his maybe bit a bondage.
Speaker 1: Or yeah, well yeah, because he stanced with saying like
Speaker 1: he must be bound. Yes, she had said to him like, oh,
Speaker 1: I need to be motivated to work. You should threaten
Speaker 1: me so I'll have to work. Ha ha ha, Like
Speaker 1: it's a wo wave jokey. Sure, you'll need to threaten
Speaker 1: me so I have to work, and he goes, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll bind you in the nautilus. I'll kill you. I've
Speaker 1: got a murder plan. I'm going to slit your throat.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: So on reflection, when Kate looked back at these messages,
Speaker 1: she would later on go to say, it became more
Speaker 1: and more obvious that I think it was meant to
Speaker 1: be me on that sub I was supposed to ride
Speaker 1: with him the very next day.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: But remember so he said, hey, August eleven, let's go
Speaker 1: out on the submarine. But Kim wall on August ten
Speaker 1: had send him another hail Mary email, Hey Megan, don't
Speaker 1: if you've been getting my other emails and he's gone, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: come on board tonight.
Speaker 6: Ah.
Speaker 2: I forgot it was that quick in the turnaround, because
Speaker 2: she had been emailing her.
Speaker 1: For months and she had sent an email on the
Speaker 1: tenth and he had written back and said, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: come on board tonight.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's so damning. I mean that that
Speaker 2: message in itself is so awful that you can't take
Speaker 2: that in any other way, like that's not all.
Speaker 1: And this Kate says that she didn't take it as
Speaker 1: she was because she who was saying as a joke.
Speaker 1: And look, I don't know why her identity is protected it.
Speaker 1: I think it means either she was underage or there
Speaker 1: was some kind of sexual charges about that, so her
Speaker 1: identity is protected for that. So either or both of
Speaker 1: those things could show why, you know, the kind of
Speaker 1: relationship they might have had over messages, and like you said,
Speaker 1: it could have been a kink kind of thing. She
Speaker 1: had said, you need to you need to send me
Speaker 1: threats so I'll make sure I get to work. So
Speaker 1: this is his funny joke, made up threat that he's
Speaker 1: sent back. And it wasn't until he'd been on a
Speaker 1: submarine with someone who went missing and then appeared chopped
Speaker 1: up that she's gone, oh wait fuck.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot more serious, And I was thinking yeah.
Speaker 1: Then investigators uncovered something else that changed the trajectory of
Speaker 1: the case entirely.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: When police seized Peter's computer from his workshop, they found
Speaker 1: that this is really awful, big, big trigger warning here.
Speaker 1: They found a hard drive containing more than one hundred
Speaker 1: videos depicting extreme violence against women.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: They weren't fictional fantasy films.
Speaker 2: They were real home video disgusting.
Speaker 1: Former colleagues recalled Peter asking whether they had ever watched
Speaker 1: something called a snuff film. Oh wow, conversations that they
Speaker 1: had brushed off as like weirdo and he's just got her.
Speaker 1: If you guys ever watched this and they're like, oh.
Speaker 2: My god, s word eccentric again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But the most chilling detail came from Peter's own
Speaker 1: digital footprint. On the morning of August ten, at eight
Speaker 1: thirty two am, investigators discovered that Peter Madsen had searched
Speaker 1: the terms girl, agony and beheading. Oh my god, and
Speaker 1: those three words together had led to a video which
Speaker 1: he had clicked on and watched of an unidentified young
Speaker 1: woman who was having her throat cut.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Piece by piece, a digital history that contradicted every explanation
Speaker 1: Peter had offered came to light. Kim Wall may not
Speaker 1: have been the first woman he'd imagined harming. She was just, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: the first who crossed his path at the wrong moment.
Speaker 1: Peter was charged with murder. By the time he went
Speaker 1: to trial, he was also charged with aggravated assault and
Speaker 1: the desecration of a corpse.
Speaker 2: Oh that's discussed, isn't it.
Speaker 1: I actually, I'm really glad there is a charge for that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because it's like, yes, murder is a charge in itself,
Speaker 1: but then to like to chop up someone's body, is
Speaker 1: that's a crime in itself?
Speaker 6: Well?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Ow what do you do there?
Speaker 1: I just put my elbow down really hard against the
Speaker 1: chair from the opposite of His trial began on March eight,
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, so really soon after rearly soon, and because
Speaker 1: the case had become, i mean, unsurprisingly one of the
Speaker 1: most publicized in Danish history. But like across the world,
Speaker 1: Peter requested a smaller panel, not a jury trial, like
Speaker 1: not a full jury trial. His lawyers applied for just
Speaker 1: two jurors and one judge, which is a measure that
Speaker 1: he's allowed in Denmark to help ensure dura impartiality.
Speaker 2: Oh right, okay, because it's such a big trial at
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 1: But I feel like there's a reason twelve is the
Speaker 1: normal exactly, Yeah, because there's like a big cross section
Speaker 1: of society.
Speaker 2: Two was a bit insane. Yeah, it might look to
Speaker 2: talk to ye and the.
Speaker 1: Judge though, So in a normal Yeah, in a normal
Speaker 1: jury trial, it's only the twelve jurors who get to
Speaker 1: decide a verdict. In this kind of trial that they
Speaker 1: were asking for, it would be the judge and two
Speaker 1: jurors who would decide together.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Sure.
Speaker 1: The defense's goal was simple, convinced the court that Kimmel's
Speaker 1: death was not premeditated, right, So they kind of had
Speaker 1: to come around and go, we found a body chopped up.
Speaker 1: We'relied in the first place, but this was not planned.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a terrible accident. And it's also insane because
Speaker 2: the terrible accident was like, well, there's no trauma to
Speaker 2: the head, so how was how are you going to
Speaker 2: explain this as an excerent and why did you chop
Speaker 2: her up afterwards, and why were there.
Speaker 1: Fifteen stab wounds? Remember, Yeah, Peter took to the stand
Speaker 1: in his own defense, which, interestingly, now I don't know
Speaker 1: if they're I mean, there would be.
Speaker 2: Stating this is charming and everything, isn't it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I don't know the stats about this, but
Speaker 1: in all of the stories you and I have covered
Speaker 1: to date, the only people that have taken the stand
Speaker 1: in their own defense, from my memory, have been the
Speaker 1: ones who have been leading.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely, yeah, and.
Speaker 1: Egotistical and arcissistic and thought that they're smarter and they
Speaker 1: can easily get away with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: From the moment he began speaking on the stand, it
Speaker 1: was clear that he loved the spectacle that this was,
Speaker 1: and he loved that the hundreds of reporters filling the
Speaker 1: gallery every day were there to see hear him.
Speaker 2: The reporters still allowed, and even though it was a
Speaker 2: smaller thing that was over.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so it's still open court. There's always reporters
Speaker 1: a lot. Up until then, Peter had claimed that Kim
Speaker 1: died when the hatch fell on her head, but now
Speaker 1: standing before the court for the very first time, he
Speaker 1: revealed a third version of events. He explained that while
Speaker 1: the submarine was still on the surface, he stepped out
Speaker 1: on the deck to check something. Then when he closed
Speaker 1: the hatch behind him, but he was still outside of
Speaker 1: the submarine, a malfunction inside the sub released toxic fumes,
Speaker 1: causing Kim to die from carbon monoxide poisoning, Which is like,
Speaker 1: what a comedy of it happened to be outside and
Speaker 1: there were toxic fumes that just let themselves out while
Speaker 1: she was in there by herself. Yeah, when he re
Speaker 1: entered the submarine, he says he found her lifeless on
Speaker 1: the floor. If that was what happened, why wouldn't you
Speaker 1: say that in the first place the things had Why
Speaker 1: wouldn't you say why would you make up the thing
Speaker 1: about the hatch if that's what actually He launched into
Speaker 1: technical explanations about submarine mechanics, clearly trying to make himself
Speaker 1: sound smarter and throw off the judge so much that
Speaker 1: they would have venture that. The judge actually have ended
Speaker 1: cutting him off, telling him to get to the point. Great,
Speaker 1: he's trying to make himself so technical old confuse them.
Speaker 1: They'll be like, oh, I don't really understand it. Will
Speaker 1: have to believe him and the judge's gone, fucking shut up, mate,
Speaker 1: Get to the point. I don't care about your I
Speaker 1: do you budge you whatever you say, Get to the
Speaker 1: fucking point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I use the term budge. Get to the point.
Speaker 1: When asked about the violent condition of Kim's remains, he
Speaker 1: had no explanation. Eventually, on cross examination, he did admit
Speaker 1: to dismembering her body, offering a chillingly clinical reason for why.
Speaker 1: He said, for batim, this is when you have a
Speaker 1: big problem, you have to divide it into something smaller.
Speaker 2: How awful?
Speaker 1: Isn't that sick?
Speaker 2: Yeah it's a click, but and please.
Speaker 1: Pardon the accidental pun. Here, Piece by piece, the prosecution
Speaker 1: dismantled his story.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Sure.
Speaker 1: A submarine expert from the Danish Navy testified the tests
Speaker 1: on the Nautis showed no trace of carbon monoxide. He
Speaker 1: just thinks he's so much smarter than he can say, Well,
Speaker 1: it's my submarine.
Speaker 3: I know how.
Speaker 1: You don't know how submarines work.
Speaker 6: I do.
Speaker 1: I'm telling you this happened. They're obviously going to bring
Speaker 1: in an experts.
Speaker 2: Exactly, but they've also shown that there was no malfunction
Speaker 2: at all. So it's like obviously while.
Speaker 1: He came up with the carbon monoxide there because it's
Speaker 1: a gas. So there's no way you could have seen
Speaker 1: that happened. There was gas all in the chamber somehow.
Speaker 1: In his psychiatric assessment, the psychologist ruled that Peter showed
Speaker 1: no remorse for the murder, no empathy, and no concern
Speaker 1: at any point for Kim's family.
Speaker 2: Oh he's a psychopath, yeah, oh yeah, discussed Yeah.
Speaker 1: Proper psychopath behavior experts described him as a pathological liar
Speaker 1: with narcissistic.
Speaker 2: And sociopathic psychopathic traite pathic traits.
Speaker 1: More than ten interns and volunteers from RML Space Lab
Speaker 1: witnesses testified against Peter.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: So it's like their leader had kind of fallen and
Speaker 1: their eyes opened to everything. They were able to step
Speaker 1: outside and see and they realized everything.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 1: When it came to his hard drive and the snuff films,
Speaker 1: Peter insisted the violent videos were no more incriminating than
Speaker 1: watching a Hollywood film such as quote kill Bill.
Speaker 2: What, there's no difference. There's no more violence.
Speaker 5: It's no different.
Speaker 1: You watch people You've got to kill Bill. You've seen
Speaker 1: people being killed on camera before.
Speaker 2: Wow, he's actually actively searching this, and he's saying this.
Speaker 1: Actively searching it. And they're not Hollywood movies. No, they're
Speaker 1: not fiction films. These are actuble films of someone actually
Speaker 1: being killed. The court disagreed the jury was required to
Speaker 1: review some of the material like.
Speaker 2: That, something they should never have to do.
Speaker 1: One video was so disturbing that they only played the
Speaker 1: audio to the jury, so they didn't even make the
Speaker 1: jury watch it. They just said you can just hear.
Speaker 2: It's horrible.
Speaker 1: Even Peter's wife, who stood by him initially, was excused
Speaker 1: from testifying due to emotional distress.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: In his closing statement, Peter said only these words, I'm
Speaker 1: very very sorry for what has happened. M what a
Speaker 1: pig like the wording of that, for what has.
Speaker 2: Happened, Yeah, taking no ownership over anything.
Speaker 1: On April twenty fifth, twenty eighteen, the verdict was delivered.
Speaker 1: The court found Peter Madsen had failed to provide any
Speaker 1: credible explanation for Kim Wall's death. He was found guilty
Speaker 1: on all charges and sentenced to life imprisonment, the harshest
Speaker 1: penalty in Denmark. When the sentence was read out at once,
Speaker 1: Cocky believed to be untouchable Peter Madsen slumped over the
Speaker 1: defense table, eyes closed and head bound. Outside the courthouse,
Speaker 1: hundreds of people had gathered, all waiting for the final
Speaker 1: ruling in one of the most shocking cases Denmark had
Speaker 1: ever seen. You know how there is like once, like
Speaker 1: every so often there's a case big enough that random,
Speaker 1: like huge, big groups of random members of the public
Speaker 1: will gather outside the listening on a transistor radio for
Speaker 1: the announcement.
Speaker 2: Yes, this was one of those. You say that, you
Speaker 2: know that, OJ Simptons, that was huge.
Speaker 1: After the verdict was delivered, a court represented stepped forward
Speaker 1: to address the crowd, which I mean that doesn't happen
Speaker 1: in Australia. I don't know if that's normal for Denmark.
Speaker 1: But someone who worked for the court came out to
Speaker 1: like give a statement. Wow, they said Kim Wall was
Speaker 1: an innocent victim. This wasn't the premeditated killing of Kim Wall.
Speaker 1: This was the premeditated killing of the next woman who
Speaker 1: would accompany him alone to sail his submarine. It's enough
Speaker 1: fucking awful, Like you cannot imagine what the intern kate,
Speaker 1: what she must live with hearing even like it's you
Speaker 1: can tell her that's why it's been surprised. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right. It's one thing to kind of go, you know,
Speaker 1: she believes that about herself, but other people will go, no,
Speaker 1: it's not you know, it's a survives guilt, it's not
Speaker 1: about you. No, the courts were saying, yes, whoever was
Speaker 1: on that whoever was on that submarine net.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The UC three Nautilus was destroyed, and Peter Madson remains
Speaker 1: in prison surfing a life serving not surfing. I don't
Speaker 1: think he gets to serve, serving a life sentence for
Speaker 1: the murder of Kim Wall. But it doesn't finish there.
Speaker 1: For all the disturbing digital evidence, the search history, the messages,
Speaker 1: the videos, the real smoking gun came from somewhere no
Speaker 1: one expected.
Speaker 2: Can you get the documentary filmmaker.
Speaker 1: Emma Sullivan's documentary On August tenth, twenty seventeen, Emma's cameras
Speaker 1: captured staff discussing the tools hanging in Peter Madson's workshop. Oh,
Speaker 1: in the background, clearly visible was a wooden saw with
Speaker 1: a bright orange handle. The next day, as the search
Speaker 1: for the Nautilus began, the sawce was gone.
Speaker 8: Of course, that is awful, but also fucking awesome in
Speaker 8: terms of the yeah they were doing.
Speaker 1: They were making a documentary about him. They're filming him
Speaker 1: and his staff at his workshop every day. That very
Speaker 1: day they had filmed the workshop and they had been
Speaker 1: discussing the tools hanging up on the wall, and then
Speaker 1: the fucking idiot murderer has gone and taken a saw
Speaker 1: off the wall, taking it out. And the very next
Speaker 1: day they're looking for a body. Wow, that turns up
Speaker 1: cut up.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Witnesses later saw recalled seeing Peter carrying a large saw
Speaker 1: with an orange handle in the lab. One staff member
Speaker 1: even remembered it sticking out of his backpack on that
Speaker 1: very day of August tenth, and this was part of
Speaker 1: the testimony they gave a try. Then, divers searching Copenhagen
Speaker 1: Harbor found an orange handle saw on the ocean floor,
Speaker 1: lying among Kimmel's belongings and those garbage bags of her
Speaker 1: remains they recovered from Wow, like he's not He hasn't
Speaker 1: even dumped. There was no reason, no reason that saw
Speaker 1: would ever have needed to be on that submarine. In
Speaker 1: its final ruling, the court explicitly stated that the documentary
Speaker 1: footage captioned by Ossie filmmaker Emma Sullivan, who thought she
Speaker 1: was documenting a man's rocket dream, was in fact instrumental
Speaker 1: improving Peter's premeditation of murder. Wow, he carried that saw
Speaker 1: onto the submarine, knowing what he was going for. That
Speaker 1: And just when you thought the story of Peter Madson
Speaker 1: couldn't take any more turns, do you remember but one
Speaker 1: of the things I said in the intro that hasn't
Speaker 1: come up yet.
Speaker 2: Oh no, we had a break for lunch.
Speaker 1: On October twentieth, twenty twenty, Peter Madson escaped from prison.
Speaker 2: What oh of course, my god.
Speaker 1: With access to the prison wood shop, Peter carved a
Speaker 1: fake gun out of wood, held a prison psychiatrist hostage with.
Speaker 2: A fake wooden gun, and walked out of the main gate.
Speaker 2: He is a bond villain, yees.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he didn't make it far, Sammy. Less than
Speaker 1: a mile from prison, police found him hiding in a
Speaker 1: van and like, just like a mile from a mile
Speaker 1: from prison. When officers approached, Peter lifted his shirt to
Speaker 1: reveal what looked like an explosive device strapped around his stomach.
Speaker 1: Officers backed off, surrounding him at a distance as he
Speaker 1: sat in the grass, a bomb disposal robot was deployed.
Speaker 1: You know, you've seen footage of them like that, like
Speaker 1: robots going yeah, to like not disengage.
Speaker 2: What's the word for, like, oh sometimes that Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I think they actually test to see first if it's
Speaker 2: like an actual.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the word I'm thinking of.
Speaker 2: I don't know, but yeah, I know what you mean.
Speaker 4: It's what's going to annoy me.
Speaker 1: The word for like making a bomb like not happen,
Speaker 1: stop it.
Speaker 2: I can't remember what is. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Anyway, an hour after this bomb disposal robot had been
Speaker 1: working on it, they discovered that it was all a ruse.
Speaker 1: The bomb was fake and had also been crafted in
Speaker 1: the wood shop. Oh my god, which I mean it's
Speaker 1: easier to detay, no, but not the other way. The
Speaker 1: other thing is when it goes off, yes, oh my god, constructs.
Speaker 8: That's crazy with the gun and the gun and the
Speaker 8: fake explosive device.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it could be easy to say, like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, how embarrassing. How can you not tell
Speaker 1: that that was a wooden bomb? But you, I mean,
Speaker 1: you're going to take every precaution if someone's wearing what
Speaker 1: looks like it could be a bomb. It's better to
Speaker 1: take an hour looking at it and then go, oh, well,
Speaker 1: it's embarrassing. It was wood. Yes, Peter Madsen was taken
Speaker 1: back into custody and twenty one months were added to
Speaker 1: his life sentence. So it must it must be a
Speaker 1: life sentence with a minimum non barolia exactly. But he's
Speaker 1: had more added to the top. I mean, and when
Speaker 1: he's tried to escape, I can only assume he's never
Speaker 1: going to be let out. Yeah, all right, so today
Speaker 1: I will finish. It's just a few more sentences about
Speaker 1: Kim War. I want to shift the focus back to
Speaker 1: the person who is really at the heart of this story,
Speaker 1: not the man who took her life, but the woman
Speaker 1: whose life meant so much more remembering Kim War. Kim's
Speaker 1: parents had always been clear she should not be remembered
Speaker 1: as a victim, but as the extraordinary journalist and person
Speaker 1: she was. Kim was fearless and had a remarkable career
Speaker 1: ahead of her, one that was already taking shape. In
Speaker 1: the wake of her tragic death, her parents created the
Speaker 1: Kim Wall Memorial Fund, a foundation that awards grants to
Speaker 1: female reporters covering stories of cultural significance, the very work
Speaker 1: Kim believed in and loved.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Her parents also published a book about her life called
Speaker 1: A Silenced Voice, which was a tribute to their daughter
Speaker 1: and her work. This is a quote from her mum,
Speaker 1: Ingrid through her fund, Kim will do what children are
Speaker 1: supposed to do, outlive their parents.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Well that's so heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: If you would like to explore Kim's reporting, her family
Speaker 1: maintains a digital archive at Remembering kimwall dot com. And
Speaker 1: that is the tragic, fucking wild story of Kim All
Speaker 1: the submarine murder story.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's so so we're both so crying at the
Speaker 2: inn again, it's so sad. It's so sad, like such
Speaker 2: a young person that sadly got on a submarine.
Speaker 1: I actually think her age doesn't matter. If that was
Speaker 1: a ninety five year old that was an innocent person.
Speaker 1: You got on a submarine to tell somebody's story, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and was brutally murdered for no reason.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so heartbreaking. And this monster that was out
Speaker 2: there just waiting for the person that got on like
Speaker 2: that is just awful. And he must have had intent,
Speaker 2: obviously had intent, but for him to go through with that,
Speaker 2: I do wonder what happened in that submarine, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, so awful to imagine what actually happened in
Speaker 2: that submarine.
Speaker 1: And because that with the films that he'd been watching,
Speaker 1: like it's you know, they often involve like torture, and yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's a a kink, be that sexual or otherwise.
Speaker 1: It's a kink to take someone's life and watch someone's
Speaker 1: life being taken. Yeah, he's just decided on that day
Speaker 1: whenever the next opportunity was Like he'd messaged the intern saying,
Speaker 1: I want to come out on the submarine with me tomorrow,
Speaker 1: and she'd said yes. But then opportunity came knocking the
Speaker 1: day before, the night before, and.
Speaker 2: He thought he was so untouchable. That's the other thing
Speaker 2: as well, Like I thought he was so untouchable. He
Speaker 2: could get away with this because he's so smart and.
Speaker 1: So much smarter than everyone else.
Speaker 4: I can do this.
Speaker 1: Why do I need to think about it? Why would
Speaker 1: I need to dump the saw in a different place
Speaker 1: to her body parts?
Speaker 2: Not awful?
Speaker 1: What would I need to Why would I need to
Speaker 1: say when I recovered, When I'm pulled ashore by a
Speaker 1: fishing and the media is waiting for me. Why would
Speaker 1: I need to say, oh, you're also the woman that
Speaker 1: was on board with me, something happened to it. Why
Speaker 1: would I need to bring her up? No one cares
Speaker 1: about her. She's a fucking reported No one cares about her.
Speaker 2: Insane like that. Yeah, and also like that, you know
Speaker 2: the filmmaker, Emma, Emma Sullivant. Yeah, incredible, look now that
Speaker 2: the footage and also look up the word for the
Speaker 2: opposite of destinating.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But yeah, but like for her as well to actually
Speaker 2: be part of the conviction, Yes, that is exactly that
Speaker 2: she went out and obviously like when they were thinking
Speaker 2: he was this what he wanted to be kind of
Speaker 2: this godlike figure that was just this incredible, eccentric person.
Speaker 2: Then for her to actually be the person that was
Speaker 2: following him and have all of this footage, that's bizarre.
Speaker 2: Emma Sullivan, I need to say this on YouTube dot com.
Speaker 1: This is it's actually it says here. It's on Netflix.
Speaker 2: Okay, great, I need to watch on It's called.
Speaker 1: The documentary is called Into the Deep, Into the Deep. Okay,
Speaker 1: It's on Netflix. It's a Netflix documentary. So maybe I
Speaker 1: didn't watch it on YouTube.
Speaker 2: You made the whole thing up.
Speaker 1: Happened principal partner for I'm a Different Thing. I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: I think she's Victorian, but I don't know if that's
Speaker 1: actually real. I mean searching her name and documentary, it's
Speaker 1: only into the deep that I don't know if she's
Speaker 1: done any other documentaries'.
Speaker 2: Find I want to please, yeah, please, if you don't
Speaker 2: tell us if you know, if you.
Speaker 1: Know Emma, or if you know anything about always right, we.
Speaker 2: Especially Emma, Memma, Emma member. Actually if you're listening as well, please.
Speaker 1: Do Emma memo. If you're listening, Yeah, I'm not finding
Speaker 1: I've just gone you know when you go to like
Speaker 1: the second page of the Google search and start going wrong.
Speaker 1: As I was about to say, I'm not finding anything
Speaker 1: else on her. So I think that's only one she's done.
Speaker 1: There is a Facebook like a it's an article, but
Speaker 1: on Facebook that says nineteen year old Emma Sullivan stepped
Speaker 1: on a rusty nail and died on June ten, nineteen nine.
Speaker 1: So I think that might be a different Emison.
Speaker 2: Maybe, but whybe we should investigate that one as well.
Speaker 1: Stepped in a rusty al on her wedding day and died.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's talking about this. Please, I'm going
Speaker 2: to look into ms Sullivan, which the text one or
Speaker 2: the documentary the documentary?
Speaker 1: Look into the technis one.
Speaker 2: Okay, uh yeah, that's a fascinating, fascinating case. Because i'd
Speaker 2: heard bits and pieces of it, I haven't seen a documentary.
Speaker 2: I'm surprised you haven't said, yeah, that's fascinating because he
Speaker 2: just seems like an evil madman. Yes, and just you know,
Speaker 2: a psychopath. But like, that's so fascinating that that happened
Speaker 2: not that long ago, the absolute.
Speaker 1: Like audacity and cockiness of someone to there's a fucking
Speaker 1: documentary being made about him. There are people filming everything
Speaker 1: you do, and you decide that's a good time to
Speaker 1: go on murder. Yeah, I'm not condoning murder outside of
Speaker 1: a documentary being made about yourself either. My advice heartedly
Speaker 1: and you can quote me on that is, you shouldn't
Speaker 1: murder anyone ever, ever, way, not just you Sammy one.
Speaker 2: Okay, ever, yes, correct, Ever, if.
Speaker 1: You are going to which you shouldn't, if you'd like
Speaker 1: to get away with it, which you shouldn't, you should
Speaker 1: you shouldn't be doing it when a documentary this feeling,
Speaker 1: fiel me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've learned so much about this. I mean
Speaker 2: I've learned that submarines can be minimum five meters long. Yes,
Speaker 2: I've learnt that rockets are big. Yes, No, be crowdfunded
Speaker 2: and people will actually send someone into space a homemade rocket.
Speaker 2: That is insane to me. Yes, yeah, if you have enough.
Speaker 1: Money to be or you know what, even if you
Speaker 1: don't have that much money. But you think I'm going
Speaker 1: to donate to this crowdfunding page for this man to
Speaker 1: make a rocket to make him feel like he's got
Speaker 1: a bigger dick by launching into space and having articles
Speaker 1: written about him. If you think about donating money to that,
Speaker 1: please instead donate money to us. You can send a
Speaker 1: direct bank transfer. You can email Sammy just another company
Speaker 1: to com dot you and he will give you our
Speaker 1: bank account details.
Speaker 2: Absolutely I will. But also like, tell us why you're
Speaker 2: sending people into space? I want to know that. What's
Speaker 2: that for?
Speaker 1: No, he just wanted to go. I made a rocket
Speaker 1: and I've got into space, same as the fucking Katy
Speaker 1: Perry and Gails. You just made that up. Why do
Speaker 1: you say weathers?
Speaker 2: What's what's Oprah's long terms?
Speaker 1: That one king, isn't it goal keep?
Speaker 2: She was the one that went up in the rocket.
Speaker 2: You didn't look up? What the goddamn well?
Speaker 1: What am I going to google? What is the word
Speaker 1: when the word for a bomb?
Speaker 2: Disarm?
Speaker 1: Disabled? Disarmed?
Speaker 2: I look, we're going to go to the mail bags.
Speaker 2: G love of the podcast because our favorite section when
Speaker 2: we hear from you. If you want to write in,
Speaker 2: you can write in Sammy at just Another Company dot
Speaker 2: com dot au. You can also leave us a voicemail
Speaker 2: defuse diffuse. There you go. The link is below if
Speaker 2: you want to send us a speak pipe as well,
Speaker 2: and you can.
Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at not Another Crime Podcast. You
Speaker 1: can follow us on TikTok at Not Another Crime Podcast.
Speaker 1: We are working on becoming TikTok BookTalk Stars, right, and
Speaker 1: by we're working on, I mean we've not done anything
Speaker 1: about books sometimes on this podcast and saying that we'd
Speaker 1: like to be TikTok BookTalk Stars.
Speaker 2: Especially TikTok stars, to get this podcast out there to
Speaker 2: as many people as possible. She love, Are you ready
Speaker 2: for this? We've got some lovely lovely Would you let
Speaker 2: him in? Would you let him in? Pretty please? Diggs
Speaker 2: because his birthday is now seven years old. He has
Speaker 2: become real chatty since he's become seven years old. And
Speaker 2: I love it, Diggs. I think something really beautiful about it,
Speaker 2: especially a rescue dog that suddenly, you know, is a
Speaker 2: little bit cheeky. I know, it's so cute. Voice like Ariel,
Speaker 2: his voice like Ariel. All right, so you're ready for this?
Speaker 4: Gee?
Speaker 2: Love This one comes from Nicole. Hi, Sammy and George
Speaker 2: are just cracked up laughing at a Booking Dot Com ad.
Speaker 2: I don't pay for YouTube, don't be ridiculous. While I
Speaker 2: was watching Sammy Special as a way to wind down
Speaker 2: after going down an Epstein file rabbit hole. God, anyway,
Speaker 2: the muppets are on the beach. Animal flicks a bunch
Speaker 2: of sand on this piggy and she books herself into
Speaker 2: a five star hotel.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you get to choose your ads,
Speaker 2: but that was excellent. After the anecdote from the other
Speaker 2: day about the Ibiza trick, I knew it. Keep up
Speaker 2: the great podcast. It's one of the joys of my week.
Speaker 1: Oh that's amazing. That's so funny because even if we
Speaker 1: weren't picks in the ads, she said, that that was
Speaker 1: now during your comedy special, not during our episode. I
Speaker 1: mentioned that that's great for did I tell you? I
Speaker 1: watched your post on Instagram? So I watched your Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I watched your special night at home with a
Speaker 1: glass of wine and with pords.
Speaker 2: How Now I loved we loved ports laughing.
Speaker 1: Yes, was laughing. If you guys don't know what we're
Speaker 1: talking about, or even if you do, I'm still gonna
Speaker 1: remind you. This is Sammy's one hour stand up comedy special,
Speaker 1: but it's available on YouTube called Why the Long Face.
Speaker 1: It's brilliant work.
Speaker 2: God, thank you so much, and I will say as well.
Speaker 2: So we got a real funny call in one of
Speaker 2: the podcasts from Meg Jaeger the other week, and it
Speaker 2: was talking about the Yeah, talking about the Epstein files
Speaker 2: and a lady message on Instagram or to say this
Speaker 2: real quickly. Lady mentioned Instagram and said you do not
Speaker 2: joke about this, blah blah blah. And I wanted to
Speaker 2: write back, but I didn't. I save myself from running back.
Speaker 2: But I was like, the joke wasn't about the Epstein
Speaker 2: files at all. It was a funny, funny joke, and
Speaker 2: you have to have context, and you also have to
Speaker 2: know that when someone is joking about something like that,
Speaker 2: they're not talking about the victims and not talking about The.
Speaker 1: Joke was that she had called in the middle of
Speaker 1: the podcast and you said, do you need to talk
Speaker 1: me about it? Is it urgent or about later? And
Speaker 1: she joked that your name had been mentioned in Epstein.
Speaker 2: It's not to do with the victims or anything, so
Speaker 2: it's not And I didn't write back to it. I
Speaker 2: was just like, whatever, I'll talk about it now. This
Speaker 2: comes on Instagram. Hey guys, love listening to you and
Speaker 2: enjoyed the pod, but I think it stopped short of
Speaker 2: engaging with the most serious critiques of the case. This
Speaker 2: is about Lucy let be.
Speaker 1: I you know what before you said that, I was
Speaker 1: going to say, is this about the loose yes one.
Speaker 2: Much of the prosecution's case rests on Shoe Lee's work
Speaker 2: in embolism in neonates, but that had been misinterpreted by
Speaker 2: Juwey lewis something Lee himself had made clear. Lee also
Speaker 2: has over four hundred peer reviewed works in his field,
Speaker 2: and the panel of fourteen international senior neo is quite
Speaker 2: simply the best you could find anywhere. In the world.
Speaker 2: Their methodology was unusually rigorous. Experts were paired, worked independently
Speaker 2: on some cases and were required to reach the same
Speaker 2: conclusions without collaboration. They consistently identified natural causes and systematic
Speaker 2: care failures rather than deliberate harm. These clinicians volunteered their
Speaker 2: time and would have zero incentive to risk their professional credibility.
Speaker 2: Now I find that really interesting because we've also got
Speaker 2: one from Courtney who says, high legends. I've just finished
Speaker 2: with Lucy, let be doco. Now, this podcast came out
Speaker 2: before the Lucier Code. Yeah, let be documentary. Honestly, I
Speaker 2: listened to this trial. I listened to the trill in
Speaker 2: real time, and I was confused then and still confused now.
Speaker 2: There is so much focus on her behavior and her reactions,
Speaker 2: like Lindy and even like Amanda Knox, Thendi Chamberlain. I
Speaker 2: don't know if anybody else thinks this, but I do
Speaker 2: think her behavior is that of someone who potentially has
Speaker 2: ASD and just genuinely comes across emotionless. In my opinion,
Speaker 2: also explains her record keeping. I know the extreme understaffing
Speaker 2: of the hospitals discussed in trial, so it's likely she
Speaker 2: genuinely forgot she had records on her and just wanted
Speaker 2: to go home after a twelve to fourteen hour day.
Speaker 1: Wasn't there, That's the only thing I'm gonna say. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but there was hundreds, weren't they.
Speaker 2: I don't know how many there were, but there were
Speaker 2: a lot under her bed.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The notes presented has similarities to Catherine Fohlbig, where excerpts
Speaker 2: were presented but not the entries as a whole. The
Speaker 2: only real evidence ever presented was that she was on
Speaker 2: shift every time, but as we know from other cases,
Speaker 2: just because someone was there doesn't mean they did it.
Speaker 2: Would love your thoughts now. I have been really interested
Speaker 2: by this because it is such a difficult case. Like
Speaker 2: it is so difficult because there are, of course two
Speaker 2: sides of every story. We don't know it looks like,
Speaker 2: you know, there has been evidence where one of the
Speaker 2: doctors as have said this, One of the doctors has
Speaker 2: said this, one of the doctors has said this, Like,
Speaker 2: it is so hard. And I think a lot of
Speaker 2: the time we react emotionally to things because babies. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And also I think we were extra careful with that
Speaker 1: one because while it is not still before the court.
Speaker 1: She's been found guilty and convicted. The fact that this
Speaker 1: panel of independent experts has come forward, yes, kind of
Speaker 1: asking for it to be re examined. We were just
Speaker 1: we've just been very careful about that because there is
Speaker 1: a possibility that it may end up back before the
Speaker 1: court in some way. I also personally found it really
Speaker 1: difficult to give much commentary about because we're not parents,
Speaker 1: no exactly, and I didn't feel comfortable making too much
Speaker 1: commentary about it because I can't possibly understand what that
Speaker 1: must feel like the parents. So I apologize if anyone
Speaker 1: thought that that, you know, the episode, we weren't kind
Speaker 1: of going into depth as much as we usually did.
Speaker 1: And it's also deep medical stuff, so you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: I do apologize if anyone thinks we didn't kind of
Speaker 1: do our usual maybe like you know, emotional depth of
Speaker 1: it or or look into it. But we really wanted
Speaker 1: to cover the story because it's one that was so
Speaker 1: fascinated by.
Speaker 2: I cover both sides at the end by talking about
Speaker 2: the panel as well. The international panel. Yeah, like that
Speaker 2: was a big part of the story. Yeah, that's also
Speaker 2: in the documentary, like that, you know, it is a
Speaker 2: fact that that was that happened. But I think people
Speaker 2: are very skeptical of doctor Juey Lewis and their mode
Speaker 2: is why he only chose seventeen cases? Why did he
Speaker 2: choose those seventeen cases when there are a lot more.
Speaker 2: There is so much to this case and it will
Speaker 2: become more I think prevalent with if there is a
Speaker 2: retrial something who knows, who knows what's gonna happen. But
Speaker 2: but yeah, I think it is a really complicated case
Speaker 2: and I understand people have very strong feelings about.
Speaker 1: One of those cases that a lot of people have
Speaker 1: become really like kind of obsessed with it, like really
Speaker 1: followed very closely, and will be the first to say
Speaker 1: we weren't. We're not to those people, we haven't followed
Speaker 1: it really really colostly. You investigated that for our episode.
Speaker 2: Before the docco came out, so I'm really interested and also,
Speaker 2: like I was, you know, kind of shocked when the
Speaker 2: documentary came out that someone actually messaged our Instagram and said,
Speaker 2: oh my god, I couldn't believe that. My husband was
Speaker 2: like maybe she's innocent, like you know, and they were
Speaker 2: kind of had an argument about it, and I was like, great,
Speaker 2: this podcast is causing arguments, but.
Speaker 1: All get divorced. Everyone's doing it. It's very chip for
Speaker 1: the twenty twenty.
Speaker 2: We were just thinking, look, that is really interesting, but
Speaker 2: we thought it was really a good idea to raise
Speaker 2: the panel at the end as part of the story,
Speaker 2: but not going into whether or not we think what
Speaker 2: Juey lewis is this or Jewey louis and.
Speaker 1: We don't know enough about the story.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: That's what this podcast is as well. We're not doing
Speaker 1: a big I'm sure there are podcasts about Lucy let me.
Speaker 1: There are multi episodes and they go into thoughts and beliefs.
Speaker 1: We were giving you the fact as we know them.
Speaker 1: That's really must have an old bit of Jans on
Speaker 1: this side with a chat up the top about our week.
Speaker 2: Correct, so sue me, don't see me, don't plays This
Speaker 2: comes from Hannah. You ready for this?
Speaker 5: I see me and Georgia. This is us listener, Hannah.
Speaker 5: I'm gonna try to keep this short and sweet because
Speaker 5: I can yapp.
Speaker 2: With the best of them, and want to make me want.
Speaker 5: To yap at you because it makes me feel like
Speaker 5: I'm sitting down with best friends. Your podcast does, and
Speaker 5: so I love it. I just want to say it's
Speaker 5: quickly become one of my favorite podcasts, so.
Speaker 9: Keep up the good work. And then I have three
Speaker 9: little things. One I know you all mentioned becoming book
Speaker 9: talk stock.
Speaker 1: Take your book of staff.
Speaker 5: You really want to be in with the book talk read.
Speaker 5: Fourth wing it's Roman.
Speaker 1: It's amazing.
Speaker 9: When people don't know traffic laws, Like if we pull
Speaker 9: up to a stop sign and they're in front of me,
Speaker 9: or they got there first, and they just look at me.
Speaker 5: I'm like, why are you looking at me? Go and
Speaker 5: get on with our lives.
Speaker 2: The order so we can carry yes, just.
Speaker 9: Drives me crazy. And then third, I just wanted to
Speaker 9: say that Georgia I love. I've noticed in episodes you
Speaker 9: always like stop and google stuff, and I'm absolutely that
Speaker 9: friend in my friend group all right to stop and google.
Speaker 1: Don't like it unknown.
Speaker 5: I'm always like, we're googling it. Let's get the answer.
Speaker 5: Conversations support stopping the podcast for you for Google.
Speaker 1: You'll like these wanted to chat with you.
Speaker 9: Have a great day, Keep carrying on with a good podcast,
Speaker 9: Stay horrendous, stayd.
Speaker 2: Can I say Hannah sent this that is one hundred
Speaker 2: and two speak pops number one. Yeah, amazing doing this, Hannah,
Speaker 2: you did it.
Speaker 1: You did it, Lucky number one hundred and you win friendship.
Speaker 2: You want to get it, Yeah, find it.
Speaker 1: You if you find it, to buy it yourself by
Speaker 1: it and then thank us. I like get so excited
Speaker 1: when people tell us they're listening from oversizing it's so cool.
Speaker 2: Well, maybe I should just skip ahead a tiny bit
Speaker 2: in our usual mail bag because we have someone who
Speaker 2: is an overseas listener, and you and I I haven't
Speaker 2: listened to this. I don't usually try and listen to
Speaker 2: them unless it's one that I'm like, oh, I'm not
Speaker 2: gonna I'm not gonna do that one. But but we
Speaker 2: have our great friend who's an overseas listener.
Speaker 10: Hey, guys, what is bored? I am just a responding
Speaker 10: to the James Free In my opinion, the only truth
Speaker 10: that are creative, especially in a narrative format that's beholden too,
Speaker 10: is the emotional truth.
Speaker 5: Really, I don't really.
Speaker 10: Think he did anything wrong. Interesting another point I wanted
Speaker 10: to make, because you brought up separating the art from
Speaker 10: the artist. I think that's emotionally dishonest to even attempt
Speaker 10: to do that. Because a lot of these guys tell
Speaker 10: on themselves in their work. I mean, Lucy Ka Woody Allen,
Speaker 10: they both did a lot of telling on themselves before
Speaker 10: they got found out, and I think it gives you
Speaker 10: a more well rounded view of the human condition to
Speaker 10: acknowledge that and go into experience in the art. It's
Speaker 10: part of them being fucked up awful people. But again,
Speaker 10: thank you for the podcast, Thank you for tolerating my buffoonery.
Speaker 1: Y'all, be good, be safe, y'all, y'all, be good, be
Speaker 1: safe is the best. But we love you. I think,
Speaker 1: I really, I really like that. That's a really good
Speaker 1: good point today is I love you know these kind
Speaker 1: of discussions.
Speaker 2: I think so too. It's like it doesn't and we're
Speaker 2: always open to people saying actually I don't agree with that,
Speaker 2: Like it is really interesting. Also, the message we got
Speaker 2: on Instagram before that, I didn't see it from anonymous
Speaker 2: because they had a really funny Instagram name. It was
Speaker 2: like this is not it, but it was like chicken
Speaker 2: salt or something like that. I'm not going to say
Speaker 2: this one came from chicken Salt. So if you do
Speaker 2: leave an Instagram a message, please do leave your full
Speaker 2: name because otherwise doing you but Yeah, I think that's
Speaker 2: really interesting. And also that discussion, I think is something
Speaker 2: that I really loved doing on this podcast. Is the
Speaker 2: first time we kind of did it. It's had a
Speaker 2: full discussion. Just do the facts and then have a
Speaker 2: proper discussion about it, because you know, James Fray is
Speaker 2: someone that I find really interesting. Look, I don't really
Speaker 2: know a whole lot about James Fray apart from what
Speaker 2: I listened to about that, but separating the art from
Speaker 2: the artist can be a really interesting topic.
Speaker 1: To say that. It's such a It's a completely good
Speaker 1: and valid point, like how much can you really because
Speaker 1: the art has come from the artist exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I love getting Spotify comments as well. So I've got
Speaker 2: from Orville. This is it says, good morning, Georgia and
Speaker 2: Sammy writing from my studio on a drink morning in Scotland.
Speaker 2: I hope Scotland. As a multimedia artist working through the night,
Speaker 2: having you in my ears is like my own audible
Speaker 2: soap opera. I wasn't a true crime fan until I've
Speaker 2: found your show via the Claremont Murders. Obsessed with Derek
Speaker 2: Thompson brackets. Now you're a constant companion. You should look
Speaker 2: into the Robbie Macintosh Murder from Dundee No crocs in brackets.
Speaker 2: His story is featured on the show Signs of a Psychopath.
Speaker 2: I love that, and also I really I want to
Speaker 2: say Drake right, I feel like it's could you send
Speaker 2: us a can you send us to a speak punk?
Speaker 2: Because I'd love to hear Yeah. I love it.
Speaker 1: Oh my God.
Speaker 2: Is the best. And also the Clemont Kells is a
Speaker 2: really interesting Clemont Killer is a really interesting story.
Speaker 1: Love to that one.
Speaker 2: This comes from.
Speaker 1: Victoria or the person?
Speaker 2: Is that the person? You wondered what compelled Dr Shue
Speaker 2: Lee to come out and contradict.
Speaker 1: Doctor Dewey Lewis and Lucy let Be story.
Speaker 2: Dr Evans used doctor Lee's research in his expert report.
Speaker 2: Doctor Lee read doctor Evans report and was dismayed at
Speaker 2: how his work had been misinterpreted. He's worried his research
Speaker 2: has been wrongly used to convict let Be. I think
Speaker 2: it's an important note that doctor Lee is the original
Speaker 2: writer Evans relied on. Doctor Lee is much more eminent
Speaker 2: than Dr Evans. And we've got this one that comes
Speaker 2: from Dean. I love this. I think it's different. If
Speaker 2: it's a complete fabrication. This is going back to the
Speaker 2: James Fray episode. Sorry, I think it's different if it's
Speaker 2: a complete fabrication versus certain events not being completely accurate.
Speaker 2: I think if it's completely fabricated, it should be marketed
Speaker 2: as a work of fiction. You were right about memories
Speaker 2: being fallible, though. I often read a memoir and wonder,
Speaker 2: did that conversation you had with your mom fifty years
Speaker 2: ago really go like that? I also think embellishments are
Speaker 2: often added to private out to provide context in situations
Speaker 2: as well, and I think that's absolutely correct.
Speaker 1: You have remember exactly the conversation you had in the
Speaker 1: exact terms with someone even one year ago, so then
Speaker 1: that could be said, well, that's not factual. It didn't
Speaker 1: happen like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's so many different sides of that. Look, we're
Speaker 2: going to have one more speak pipe today.
Speaker 1: Do you I think this is going to be the
Speaker 1: longest episode of all time, isn't it?
Speaker 2: I don't think so. No, no, no, I don't think
Speaker 2: it's going to be the longest episode we've done, but
Speaker 2: I think it will be up there. Oh, we've about
Speaker 2: an hour and fifty five at the moment.
Speaker 1: What about if I sang the whole score of Book
Speaker 1: of Mormon, I would like that.
Speaker 2: But can we just go to a lovely voicemail because
Speaker 2: I think you're really going to like this one as
Speaker 2: well as we always love voicemails. I just love this
Speaker 2: one so much, and I think you are going to to.
Speaker 5: Hi, guys, this is Bubba.
Speaker 3: I left you guys a message by Instagram a couple
Speaker 3: of weeks ago. I stumbled across your podcast and was
Speaker 3: just so pleasantly just surprised. It was just so funny
Speaker 3: and so horrific.
Speaker 2: And just love it, just love it.
Speaker 1: I'm real big.
Speaker 3: Crime alcoholic. I guess you to pologize and crime podcasts
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter how horrific they are.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 6: It's just.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: It's just something that I like listening to. It just
Speaker 3: intrigues me how people are in the world. But anyway,
Speaker 3: just keep up the great work. I'm still binge listening
Speaker 3: to catch up, but I am listening to you to
Speaker 3: your weekly shows.
Speaker 4: So I just you guys make me laugh.
Speaker 1: So it's just so funny.
Speaker 3: I'm a jen Xa as well, so I am a grandma.
Speaker 3: And that's why that that's why I'm called Bubba Plish
Speaker 3: and Georgia. I have a daughter called Georgia.
Speaker 4: Fantastic name.
Speaker 2: I also have to let you know that my.
Speaker 3: Sister Vanessa has two beautiful rag dolls. They are just awesome, honey,
Speaker 3: and they make me laugh.
Speaker 5: Just thank you very much for just doing your shows.
Speaker 1: I just love them.
Speaker 2: I love you on Instagram before. And she's just such
Speaker 2: a beautiful person.
Speaker 1: Hider Mabel and Honey as well.
Speaker 2: And Georgia name is great and also like, okay, if
Speaker 2: you have a if you have a fascination with true crime,
Speaker 2: you've been listening to true crime for a while, you're
Speaker 2: a true crime Yeah, that's right, true crimesic and this
Speaker 2: is probably a different one to listen to if you've
Speaker 2: been listening to lots of true Thank you. We loved
Speaker 2: that voicemail. We love to hear your voice. I want
Speaker 2: to know if I pronounced drink right, drake morning.
Speaker 1: How's it spelt?
Speaker 4: Please?
Speaker 2: It's d r E I see h. I believe maybe
Speaker 2: there's an e on the end of there, but it is.
Speaker 2: It's one of those beautiful Scottish words that I just
Speaker 2: don't Yeah, d R E I c h. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: really want to get I've just wanted to get it
Speaker 2: right because I was like, if I don't get that right,
Speaker 2: I'm upsetting all about Scottish listeners.
Speaker 1: Yes, and you will Shrek, particularly Shrek and.
Speaker 2: Also and also our beautiful friend Shinade. I've got for
Speaker 2: you to Well, can you please tell me your poor
Speaker 2: dry p for today?
Speaker 4: I can.
Speaker 1: I'm going to look it up because you're gonna.
Speaker 2: Look it up.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 2: You know what you always do this and this about
Speaker 2: you Okay, okay, because you've written so many down.
Speaker 1: Because when I have that, like when they pop into
Speaker 1: me to write them down. Yes, when people talk about
Speaker 1: having high cholesterol, but they just say I've got cholesterol. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's it's bizarrely yeah yeah arly comment. Oh I can't
Speaker 1: have butter anymore. I've got cholesterol. Yes, yeh, yep, we
Speaker 1: all have cholesterol.
Speaker 2: Can I tell you one that my mum actually told
Speaker 2: me yes, so she said that she used to her
Speaker 2: poor dry peeve was that when I was a kid,
Speaker 2: I used to open up the fridge, look there's nothing there,
Speaker 2: and a moment later, I back should magically change used
Speaker 2: to go. That was so frustrating that he's gone back
Speaker 2: the free change Yeah, that's a good one. Thanks to
Speaker 2: real you Geldine for that bloody love, that g love.
Speaker 2: It's been a goddamn pleasure to be with you today.
Speaker 2: Thank you for that amazing story.
Speaker 1: Thank you to Taylor so much, Taylor Richards the best.
Speaker 2: Thank you to Oliver Clark for doing the music. Thank
Speaker 2: you to James and Hayes for doing the artwork.
Speaker 1: Thank you to you listeners for following us on Instagram
Speaker 1: and TikTok and Not Another Crime Podcast. Thank you for
Speaker 1: watching us on YouTube about Not Another Crime Podcast. Thank
Speaker 1: you Sammy Peterson for being the best goddamn friend of
Speaker 1: my favorite person in the world.
Speaker 2: Thank you for sharing this podcast with your nearest and
Speaker 2: tourist friend so much that as well.
Speaker 1: Say thank you for turning seven and giving us a party.
Speaker 2: Bye buddy, Buddy, Bye buddy. All we have left to
Speaker 2: say on this podcast is thank you for making us TikTok.
Speaker 2: At dusk, a single gunshot echoed across a quiet street.
Speaker 2: There was something very wrong. No one seemed to be around.
Speaker 2: This gunshot seemed too sharp, but in this town there
Speaker 2: was never ever a crime. When responders arrived, they found
Speaker 2: an elderly tycoon collapsed outside his own estate, still alive,
Speaker 2: barely conscious, whispering nonsense, and just like that, a question
Speaker 2: hung over the town like smog. Who did this? The
Speaker 2: man was powerful, obscenely so the dead man.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 2: He controlled the town's largest employer, dictated local politics through
Speaker 2: fear and money, and treated human beings as disposable resources.
Speaker 2: He was also deeply, profoundly disliked, true doubt this story.
Speaker 2: Instigators were immediately overwhelmed, not by a lack of suspects,
Speaker 2: but by an excess of them.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The list grew faster than detectives could type. Everyone
Speaker 2: had a story, Most had a grudge. Witnesses accounts were unreliable.
Speaker 2: Some contradicted themselves within minutes. Others contradicted reality, alibi shifted,
Speaker 2: timelines warped, physical evidence appeared, disappeared, then reappeared in places
Speaker 2: that made no sense. Eventually, investigators landed on a solution
Speaker 2: that felt neat, too neat. The case was closed with
Speaker 2: public confidence, media applause, and a quiet sense of relief.
Speaker 2: The town wanted the chapter to end. The victim survived.
Speaker 2: Years later, the case is remembered less as a crime
Speaker 2: and more as a cultural mystery. Who done it? Where?
Speaker 2: Motive was universal and logic was optional. The victim, mister Burns,
Speaker 2: the town Springfield, the truth, complicated, absurd, somehow crazier than
Speaker 2: you ever might imagined. As immortalized in the fictional TV
Speaker 2: show The Simpsons, the real question was never who pulled
Speaker 2: the trigger? It was why. It felt like everyone did.
Speaker 1: Who's your mister person? Why did you write that?
Speaker 2: I thought it was fun.
Speaker 1: It's beautiful, beautiful.
Speaker 2: We had a wonderful listener that said you should do
Speaker 2: who shot missus fans? And I thought, real quickly, get
Speaker 2: away with that for a whole episode. I thought it
Speaker 2: could be a little little fun, little tack.
Speaker 1: On this shows. I know you too well, because when
Speaker 1: you were like I was like, why did you say tycoon?
Speaker 1: It's such a weird word. Oh my damn Simon.
Speaker 2: Anyway, but
Speaker 7: M