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Speaker 1: New Jersey and Amanda jam Nation for.

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Speaker 2: The first time in the New Digs. Emma Gillespie is

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Speaker 2: he hello?

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Speaker 3: Emma, Hello, good morning. How are we going greater? Have

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Speaker 3: you here?

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Speaker 4: It's interesting time to have you on the show. This week,

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Speaker 4: Bruce Lherman, in a civil trial that he brought himself

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Speaker 4: a defamation trial has been called by the lawyer the

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Speaker 4: judge to by all intents and purposes, beer rapist exactly.

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Speaker 5: Their federal court judge finding this week that it's more

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Speaker 5: likely than not that Bruce Lahmon raped Britney Higgins, meaning

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Speaker 5: he wasn't defamed by journalist Lisa Wilkinson, a Network ten,

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Speaker 5: so a bit of a refresher.

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Speaker 3: This case was.

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Speaker 5: Brought by Bruce Lemmon after the criminal trial fell through,

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Speaker 5: So that was in relation to allegations that Britney Higgins

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Speaker 5: claimed in twenty nineteen in Parliament.

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Speaker 3: House that she was raped by Bruce Lamon.

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Speaker 5: In twenty twenty one, those allegations were aired on the Project,

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Speaker 5: but Lehman wasn't named. He was never identified in that

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Speaker 5: interview exit blicitly by name, but he had argued that

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Speaker 5: he was still identifiable from that interview and that kind

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Speaker 5: of formed the basis of this civil trial.

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Speaker 4: And when the criminal trial was disbanded it was because

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Speaker 4: of the bad behavior of one of the jurors.

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Speaker 5: Yep, So Durham was conduct and I think also really

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Speaker 5: important to point out that with that falling through, Bruce

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Speaker 5: Lemon was never found guilty. He was never found not

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Speaker 5: guilty of rape in a criminal court. He wasn't found

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Speaker 5: of anything because that fell through that juror's misconduct.

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Speaker 2: Couldn't we talk about that? So it was does anyone

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Speaker 2: know what the juror actually did?

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Speaker 5: It was that the juror had brought in a news

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Speaker 5: article into the deliberation room, so they had been engaging

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Speaker 5: with external media and doing some investigation. You're not supposed

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Speaker 5: to be looking at that kind of stuff. But in

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Speaker 5: this civil case, it's the first time that a trial

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Speaker 5: to do with this story has actually come to a conclusion,

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Speaker 5: to a finding, and that is, on the balance of probability,

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Speaker 5: it's more likely than not that Bruce Lemon did rape

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Speaker 5: Brittney Higgins. And therefore Ten's defense was this truth's defense

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Speaker 5: that they were saying they couldn't have defamed him because

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Speaker 5: they were telling the truth. I think the difference here

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Speaker 5: between a civil trial and a criminal trial is important

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Speaker 5: to talk about because this balance of probability. We're hearing

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Speaker 5: that term thrown around a lot today. What that actually

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Speaker 5: means is that it's more likely than not, so that

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Speaker 5: a judge had to be certain not to weigh one

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Speaker 5: hundred percent standard, but a fifty one percent, if you will,

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Speaker 5: that it probably happened, that Brittany Higgins more than likely

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Speaker 5: was raped, that all of these sort of hypotheses and

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Speaker 5: options and stories, that this is the one that he believes,

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Speaker 5: his justice believes is most likely the truth, whereas in

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Speaker 5: a criminal court you have to prove guilt beyond a

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Speaker 5: reasonable doubt. So that's this idea that there is no

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Speaker 5: doubt in your mind, that there is no other alternative

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Speaker 5: storyline that you think has some way that could discredit

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Speaker 5: that idea that that is one hundred percent what happened.

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Speaker 5: So it's a really different burden of proof, and that's

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Speaker 5: why people have been a little bit more cautious in

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Speaker 5: how the talking about this one.

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Speaker 4: What's interesting though, is it makes us look at the

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Speaker 4: vilification of Britney Higgins. As it was said yesterday, there

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Speaker 4: is no perfect victim, and how hard it will be

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Speaker 4: for women to come forward if your scenario isn't one

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Speaker 4: hundred percent black and white, and in whose cases is

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Speaker 4: that ever going to be the case?

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Speaker 3: Exactly?

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Speaker 4: Brittany has been through the ringer through this, so she

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Speaker 4: obviously wasn't in court yesterday, but I hope that she

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Speaker 4: took a deep breath and hope she can call off

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Speaker 4: the hounds for a while.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we heard from Justice Michael Lee.

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Speaker 5: You know, it was two and a half hours of

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Speaker 5: findings that he handed down, three hundred odd pages, really

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Speaker 5: really thorough findings.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't that sixteen thousand pages of stuff. Who's going

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Speaker 2: to read all that he has.

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Speaker 5: To rama basis for future kind of defamation cases, I

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Speaker 5: think in this country, So you know, it'll kind of

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Speaker 5: be something that law students will probably be studying in

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Speaker 5: no time. But I think we've got a grab from

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Speaker 5: the findings at a moment.

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Speaker 3: We love what he said here.

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Speaker 1: Mister Lhrman's state of mind was such that he was

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Speaker 1: indifferent to Miss Higgins's consent and just went ahead Willy

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Speaker 1: nearly having the lines den. Mister Lherman made the mistake

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Speaker 1: of coming back for his hat.

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Speaker 4: Can I talk about entitlement as well with the Channel

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Speaker 4: seven Spotlight program. So they were the ones that did

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Speaker 4: this story on Bruce Lherman. And what we're hearing now,

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Speaker 4: allegedly from one of the producers, is that he claims

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Speaker 4: that Bruce Lherman, at the time they knew that he

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Speaker 4: was up for he had been accused of two rapes,

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Speaker 4: two separate rapes. One was Britney Higgins, another was a

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Speaker 4: case Intowomba. They knew this when they lured him to

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Speaker 4: tell his story, to sit down and tell the story,

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Speaker 4: and they wooed him by paying his rent, by allegedly

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Speaker 4: paying for sex workers and for alcohol and drugs, and

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Speaker 4: so this boys club stuff just keeps going and going

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Speaker 4: and going.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, this case, the evidence hearing part of this. We

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Speaker 5: were supposed to get a finding on this trial weeks ago,

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Speaker 5: and then this explosive kind of new information came out

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Speaker 5: from this Channel seven producer who claimed exactly what you say, Amanda,

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Speaker 5: that Channel seven has spent all this money on wooing Lehman,

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Speaker 5: getting confidential material from his criminal trial, and that hundreds

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Speaker 5: of thousands of dollars were spent on yep, sex workers, drugs, accommodation,

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Speaker 5: and that essentially halted the findings being handed down because

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Speaker 5: ten were able to convince the Justice, Justice Michael Lee

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Speaker 5: in this situation that he should hear this new evidence

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Speaker 5: and hear these new sensational claims about how Lehman might

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Speaker 5: have compromised evidence and files that he said were only

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Speaker 5: supposed to be shown to that court, but that he

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Speaker 5: had shared with seven. It was just another chaotic chapter

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Speaker 5: in this ongoing circus of a story really that, at

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Speaker 5: the end of the day, is about a really traumatic incident.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, how many careers have been ended because two millennials

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Speaker 2: had a night out on the vodkas, Like, really have

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Speaker 2: a look at it.

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Speaker 3: But not just that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, if he has raped her.

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Speaker 2: That's a civil trial exactly. This is this is the same.

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Speaker 4: But I always say to my sons with if a

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Speaker 4: girl is drunk, this is not giving consent, which is

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Speaker 4: no consent trial.

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Speaker 2: And also the footage of him plying her with alcohol

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Speaker 2: that's been well documented.

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Speaker 3: This is the story of our times.

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Speaker 4: It really is.

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Speaker 5: Of course, I think it was refreshing to hear the

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Speaker 5: judge sort of acknowledge that this was an ineborated young

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Speaker 5: woman in her twenties who has lured into this situation,

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Speaker 5: and he believes that Bruce Lemmon's intentions were never to

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Speaker 5: go back to Parliament House to write some notes about

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Speaker 5: French submarine deals.

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Speaker 3: That's enofemism.

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Speaker 5: He cut her off and put her in a vulnerable situation.

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Speaker 5: He did acknowledge that neither of them were particularly credible witnesses.

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Speaker 5: He did sort of acknowledge that Britney Higgins there were

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Speaker 5: some holes in her story. But he also commented on

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Speaker 5: a trauma response, and I thought this was interesting hearing

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Speaker 5: about someone in that level talking about this that for

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Speaker 5: victims of trauma, they will often have splintered memories and

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Speaker 5: recollections of an incident like that it's your body helping

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Speaker 5: you cope with something by blocking those memories out.

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Speaker 4: And the trauma of the trial of the press pile on.

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Speaker 4: What a mess And is this the end of it?

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Speaker 3: It's not over yet.

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Speaker 5: We've got a hearing next week where both sides will

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Speaker 5: present their costs. Essentially ten and Lisa Wilkinson's legal team

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Speaker 5: will be going after the legal costs of bringing this defamation.

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Speaker 3: Trial, which will be easily into the millions. Look how

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Speaker 3: long it's gone on for.

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Speaker 5: It also does open the door up for another criminal prosecution.

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Speaker 5: We have no idea what will happen if that will

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Speaker 5: be brought again, but potentially it could be brought.

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Speaker 3: It's not a double jeopardy thing. He was never found

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Speaker 3: guilty or not guilty in this criminally.

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Speaker 5: So hypothetically that could happen, and he could also appeal.

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Speaker 3: The defamation finding in the civil court.

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Speaker 5: I hope for all of us, and particularly those who

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Speaker 5: work in media, that that doesn't happen, because it's been

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Speaker 5: a long time with this one, and I think we're all.

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Speaker 3: Ready to move.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to say anything because I just want

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Speaker 2: this baby to be put to be