1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcotin woman from Gadighal Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:12,319 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily Odds. It's Wednesday, 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 2: the seventeenth of January. 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 3: I'm zara, I'm sam. 10 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 2: UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has called it one of. 11 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 3: The greatest miscarriages of justice in our nation's history. 12 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 2: And it's been compared to the Robodet saga here in Australia. 13 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 4: So what actually is the UK's post office scandal. 14 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 2: Well, we're going to tell you everything you need to 15 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 2: know about this story in today's deep dive. 16 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 4: The First Sam. What's making headlines. 17 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 3: We're officially in the US presidential race for twenty twenty four. 18 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 3: Donald Trump has won the Iowa caucuses as the Republican 19 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 3: Party gets a step closer to determining its twenty twenty 20 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 3: four presidential nominee. Iowa was the first US state to 21 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 3: cast votes for the Republican candidacy. Over the coming months, 22 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 3: each state's going to hold votes to decide who will 23 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,479 Speaker 3: lead the Republican Party in the election this year, keep 24 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 3: an eye out for Super Tuesday on the fifth of 25 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 3: March that will see primary elections held in multiple states, 26 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 3: including California and Texas. That day is considered a major 27 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 3: test for presidential candidates. 28 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 2: The company that owns Australia's professional soccer league, the A 29 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 2: League and A League Women, has announced significant job cuts. 30 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 2: The Australian Professional League said it has identified significant opportunities 31 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 2: to create efficiencies that's a direct quote there, to ease 32 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 2: growing financial pressures. APL said it remains committed to growing 33 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 2: its competitions with strong teams producing great young players across 34 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 2: Australia and New Zealand. 35 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 3: Australian actress Sarah Snook has won an Emmy for her 36 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 3: role as Shivroy in Succession. It's her third win this month. 37 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 3: She's had a great run after the Golden Globes and 38 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 3: the Critics' Choice Awards. It was Successions Night, with six 39 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 3: wins for the series, including Best Drama Series. Elton John's 40 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 3: win for his Live Farewell specials saw him become the 41 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 3: nineteenth person in history to win an Egot, meaning he's 42 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 3: now won an Emmy for TV, a Grammy for music, 43 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 3: an Oscar for films, and a Tony for Broadway. 44 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,839 Speaker 2: And look, that is already some good news, but we're 45 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: giving you another one. Technology designed for agriculture businesses to 46 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 2: track livestock is now being used to track koalas. That's 47 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 2: all part of efforts to monitor the endangered species, with 48 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: researchers at the University of Southern Queensland saying that koalas 49 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 2: can travel up to fifteen to twenty kilometers in search 50 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 2: of new Eucalyptus trees. Its hoped conservationists can use the 51 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 2: data that's collected by the tracking technology to identif fire 52 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: the best locations to plant more trees and boost kohala habitats. Okay, 53 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 2: So today we are talking about a story that I 54 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 2: imagine most of you won't be familiar with. I know 55 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 2: that I hadn't heard much about it until very recently. 56 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 2: It's a scandal that took place between nineteen ninety nine 57 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 2: and twenty fifteen in the UK. Now, the story goes 58 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 2: that between that time, hundreds of post office workers in 59 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 2: the UK were charged with theft and false accounting, and 60 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 2: many of them were jailed. Now it turns out that 61 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: the information that was used to prosecute them was based 62 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 2: on a faulty IT system. This month, Prime Minister Rishisunak 63 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 2: described the scandal as an appalling miscarriage of justice and 64 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: now the government is paying millions to victims. Before we 65 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 2: go on, I do just want to explain why it 66 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 2: is we're talking about this story today, especially since I 67 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 2: said that it started in nineteen ninety nine. It's actually 68 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 2: because of a TV show that aired in the first 69 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 2: week of this year. The show is called mis Debates 70 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 2: Versus the Post Office, and that was a show that 71 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: basically chronicled this whole affair, and so now it's been 72 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: thrust back into the news cycle. I do think it's 73 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 2: a really interesting one to un pack for many reasons, 74 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: but also because there are a few similarities to scandals 75 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 2: that have unfolded here in Australia. 76 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 3: Let's get into that discussion of where the similarities could 77 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 3: be with our robodebt scandal experience here in Australia. But 78 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 3: before all of that, I honestly didn't think we'd be 79 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 3: talking about the UK Postal Office on this podcast. 80 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 4: Certainly not a regular thing, no problems. 81 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 3: We're talking about it every so often. Give me a 82 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 3: sense of that organization and a bit of history there. 83 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the UK Post Office, which as you said, 84 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 2: is the organization that this story is really centered around, 85 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 2: operates over eleven thousand, five hundred branches across England, Wales, 86 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 2: Scotland and Northern Ireland. And in the late nineteen nineties 87 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 2: and the early two thousands, an IT system it's called Horizon, 88 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 2: and it was owned by the Japanese company Fujitsu. That 89 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 2: IT system was rolled out across thousands of post offices 90 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 2: and the idea was to modernize their transactions and their accounting. 91 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 2: And so what happened was that bugs, errors and defects 92 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 2: in the system ended up wrongly making it look like 93 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: money had gone missing within some post offices, and those 94 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: defects led to hundreds of branch operators, which actually called 95 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 2: sub postmasters and subpostmistresses a fun in fact. Yeah, those 96 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 2: people were accused of theft or fraud for the unexplained shortfalls. 97 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 2: So basically a whole bunch of money went missing. They 98 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 2: were accused of stealing it, But what had actually happened 99 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 2: was that there was a defect in the technology that 100 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: was the reason why this money had suddenly gone away. 101 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 2: The Post Office, though repeatedly denied glitches in the horizon system, 102 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: an independent inquiry heard from former workers who were told 103 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 2: that when they complained, they were told that they were 104 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 2: the only branch to. 105 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 4: Have the issue. Of course we know now that wasn't 106 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 4: the case. 107 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 3: And so what ended up happening to those people who 108 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 3: were working in the post service that were accused of theft. 109 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 2: So employees who flagged missing funds were made to repay 110 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 2: the money to the UK Post Office, and hundreds of 111 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 2: branch operators were dismissed from their roles and they were 112 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 2: criminally charged. Between nineteen ninety nine and twenty fifteen, the 113 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 2: glitches led to an estimated nine hundred conviction. Nine hundred 114 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 2: people were convicted of crimes based on a computer glitch. 115 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 2: Some workers were. 116 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 4: Jailed for at least three years. And I do think 117 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 4: that this next. 118 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 2: Part goes to the heart of why this story matters 119 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 2: so much, and for me again really brings in those 120 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 2: robodic comparisons, is that many Post office workers described suffering 121 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 2: serious financial and emotional damage as a result of these prosecutions, 122 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 2: things like bankruptcy and broken marriages, because ultimately some were 123 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 2: serving time. Others went through lengthy prosecutions only to be 124 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,239 Speaker 2: found guilty of crimes that they hadn't commit. 125 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 3: And we know from both Robodette and it sounds like 126 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 3: this story that these experiences don't just impact the single 127 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 3: person at the center of the investigation. 128 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 4: The people around them as well for sure. And they 129 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 4: lost their jobs. 130 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so how did that all come to light? 131 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: Then? 132 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 2: So, as I said at the top, while we are 133 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 2: talking about it today for the first time, it's definitely 134 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: not a new story. Issues with the software were first 135 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 2: raised by a former branch operator and his name is 136 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 2: Alan Bates. 137 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 4: That was in two thousand and four. 138 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 2: He made those claims to a trade publication called Computer Weekly. 139 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 2: Following the publishing of this story about Alan Bates's claims 140 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: in Computer Weekly, there were a whole bunch of other 141 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 2: former postmasters who reached out to him to say that 142 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 2: they'd had similar experiences. That group ended up banning together, 143 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 2: and they formed a new group called the Justice for 144 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: Subpostmaster's Alliance, and that was a way for them to 145 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 2: come together and I guess organize around this idea of 146 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 2: injustice that they thought that they had suffered and what 147 00:07:57,560 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: they claimed to be a cover up. 148 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 4: Several British MPs also. 149 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 2: Began flagging concerns about the Horizon system after hearing stories 150 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: from impacted workers in their electorates. So you know, these 151 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 2: people with nowhere else to turn, were turning to elected 152 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 2: officials saying, this is what's happened, Like, you know, are 153 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 2: there any other stories of this kind? If you've been 154 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: told it's only your brand? I imagine that would be 155 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 2: an extremely isolating experience, of. 156 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 3: Course, And so this group started to organize and mobilize. 157 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 3: How long was it until the concerns were really you know, 158 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 3: put under the spotlight by the legal system. 159 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 2: So more than five hundred and fifty ex employees ended 160 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 2: up signing an application that was led by Baits, the 161 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 2: person who I said was the first to really blow 162 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 2: the whistle on this. That was submitted to the High 163 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 2: Court in twenty sixteen. 164 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 3: Okay, so that's twelve years after the original article. 165 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then only in twenty nineteen the court found 166 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 2: that there had been bugs in the system and that 167 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 2: they had been correct and it ruled that there was 168 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 2: this culture of secrecy the Post Office and said that 169 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 2: the Post Office engaged in what it labeled oppressive behavior 170 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 2: by demanding sums of money that couldn't be accounted for. 171 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 2: A judge said that the Post officer's defense that the 172 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 2: horizon system had no glitches amounted to and a quote, 173 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 2: the twenty first century equivalent of maintaining that the Earth 174 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 2: is flat. 175 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 4: Wow, a very strong quote there. 176 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 2: And so it was this whole process, and this whole 177 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 2: story was featured in that TV show I spoke about earlier. 178 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 3: And so what happened to those people? I mean in 179 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 3: Australia in the robodet context, there was compensation. Was there 180 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 3: anything similar here? 181 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 2: So? Yes, the UK government has paid the equivalent of 182 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 2: two hundred and sixty three million dollars in compensation to 183 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 2: more than two thousand, seven hundred people affected by the scandal. 184 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 2: There's also this ongoing independent investigation that was commissioned by 185 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 2: the government. It began in twenty twenty and it's still ongoing. 186 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 2: So I suspect there might be more recommendations, you know, again, 187 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 2: like we had a Royal commission here that made a 188 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,959 Speaker 2: number of recommendations to government about what to do around 189 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 2: robodebt victims. We still don't have the final report from 190 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 2: this UK investigation, so that remains to be seen. 191 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 3: And so you spoke at the top of this discussion 192 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 3: about the UK Prime Minister Shisunac. He said this week 193 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 3: that this whole episode was an appalling miscarriage. 194 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 4: Of justice, very strong quote. 195 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 3: Did he do anything else this week besides make those comments? 196 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 2: So Sunac introduced new laws to exonerate, which just basically 197 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 2: means to pardon those who were convicted, and he was 198 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 2: very explicit in what he said had happened. He said 199 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 2: that people who worked very hard to serve their communities 200 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 2: had their lives and their reputations destroyed through absolutely no 201 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 2: fault of their own. I will add, though, that no 202 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 2: individual Post Office executive has yet been held responsible for 203 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 2: the scandal. 204 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 3: A really interesting story that definitely does have some similarities 205 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 3: to the robodet experience in Australia. Thanks for that explainer. 206 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 3: Zara will be again in your ears tomorrow. Until then, 207 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 3: have a great day. If you're joining us as part 208 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 3: of the Daily Drive Spotify playlist, hope you're enjoying the 209 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 3: podcast and we'll leave you to one of your tracks 210 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 3: now stick around, Give us a follow and we'll chat 211 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 3: to you soon.