1 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 2 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:09,639 Speaker 1: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with 5 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 1: finding ways to optimize my workday. For today's show, I 6 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: wanted to try something new as a few themes have 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: shouted to emerge now that I've interviewed a dozen or 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: so people, and one of the things that everyone I've 9 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: interviewed so far has in common is that they have 10 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: literally hundreds of people making requests on their time every 11 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: week to make sure that they don't spend their lives 12 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: just reacting to other people's stuff and prioritize their own goals. 13 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: I found that a lot of people that I've spoken 14 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: to have very deliberate strategies for deciding what to say 15 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: no to, and they've also got strategies for how to 16 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: make saying no a little bit easier. I know that 17 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: for me, getting better at saying no has been a 18 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: really big learning curve. I get quite a lot of 19 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: requests from all sorts of people wanting to have a 20 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: coffee or pick my brain in inverted commas or speak 21 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: in an event. And I used to say yes to 22 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: most things or feel guilty if I did say no. 23 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 2: But this year, I've actually switched. 24 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: Things around, and I have the answer is no as 25 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: my default answer, and unless for me something is a 26 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: hell yes, I generally politely decline. I've also stopped having 27 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: coffees with people who want to pick my brain because 28 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: they became such a timesuck last year and just made 29 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: me feel frustrated with the lack of progress I was 30 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: making on projects that mattered to me. Now. First up 31 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: in today's episode, we have Adam Grant. Adam is a 32 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: psychology professor at Wharton and the author of best selling 33 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: books such as Give and Take, Originals and Option b. 34 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: As you can probably imagine, Adam gets a lot of 35 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: requests made for his time, and in this conversation he 36 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: talks about how he decides whether to say yes or 37 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: whether to say no. 38 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 3: Oh, I don't know. I feel like I'm struggling through 39 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 3: this the same way that everyone else is. I'll tell 40 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 3: you what has been most helpful to me, though. I 41 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 3: think you know. I used to try to say yes 42 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 3: to everyone and to everything, and I just found that 43 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 3: that was impossible, as you know, as I got busier, 44 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 3: as my profile you know got I guess got raised 45 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 3: outside the Ivory Tower. I just didn't have enough hours 46 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 3: in the day to field all the requests that were 47 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 3: coming in, and so I ended up coming out with 48 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,679 Speaker 3: a bunch of heuristics that more or less mirrored what 49 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 3: I've studied when I've when I've looked at the differences 50 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 3: between you know, people who are what I've called successful 51 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 3: givers who are productively generous, and failed givers who are 52 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 3: too selfless and ended up burning out or getting burned 53 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 3: by the takers who they have the misfortune of dealing with. 54 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 3: There are few kinds of choices that really matter. The 55 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 3: first one is to be thoughtful about who you help. 56 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 3: And so for me, that's That's meant that I have 57 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 3: a hierarchy of people that I'm trying to support, and 58 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 3: it's family first, students second, colleagues third, everyone else fourth. 59 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 3: And at some point I realized that friends were not 60 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 3: in that list, and I felt really bad about it. 61 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 2: But then I realized, you know what, I. 62 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 3: Actually my goal in a friendship is not to be 63 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 3: you know, helping the person, it's to be, you know, 64 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 3: to be a friend and that may involve lots of 65 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 3: different things, and you know, I'll fit them in wherever, 66 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 3: but uh, the other the other categories. It was it 67 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 3: was important for me to be clear because when a 68 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 3: request comes in, I know that I'm not going to 69 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 3: be equally generous to everyone. And so I had to realize, 70 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 3: you know what, I'm okay with the fact that my 71 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 3: colleagues may well think that I'm less generous than my 72 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 3: students do, because I just did not become a professor 73 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 3: to try to inspire other professors, right. I became a 74 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 3: professor because I wanted to have an impact on students 75 00:03:57,880 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 3: the same way that you know that I was really 76 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 3: influenced by, you know, by the the great teachers that 77 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 3: I had had, and I wanted to try to pay 78 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 3: that forward. And so, you know, when when a request 79 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 3: comes in, I just kind of go through that list, 80 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 3: and it depends on how much I have in the day. 81 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 3: And it was so important to put family first there 82 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 3: because you know, it's easy to say, well, you know, 83 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 3: there's you know, there are lots of requests that come 84 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 3: in workwise that are urgent, and you know, you you 85 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 3: also are able to gain status and build connections by 86 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 3: helping people. And you know that some of the family 87 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 3: stuff is sometimes less exciting if you're changing diapers, for example. 88 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 3: But you know, when when I took a step back 89 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 3: and thought about my values, I knew that it was 90 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 3: most important to me to be, you know, to be 91 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 3: showing up for my family first and foremost, so that 92 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 3: I found really helpful. And then the other choices are 93 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 3: about how you help and when you help. And you 94 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 3: know that that basically breaks down to saying, look, I 95 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 3: want to help when I can add unique value and 96 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 3: when it does not detract from my energy or my 97 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 3: ability to get my own work done. And so what 98 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 3: I tried to do was break down all the different 99 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 3: ways that I was I was trying to say yes 100 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 3: to people and figure out which ones I enjoyed and 101 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 3: excelled at. And you know, if people were asking for 102 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 3: help in domains where I didn't feel like I had 103 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 3: a unique contribution to make or it was exhausting me, 104 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 3: I knew that over time that meant I was going 105 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 3: to have less impact. And so for me, that's been 106 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 3: kind of zooming in on two things. One is knowledge sharing. 107 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 3: There's almost nothing that brightens my inbox more than somebody 108 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 3: reaching out and saying, yeah, I had this question about, 109 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 3: you know, something related to work psychology, like has anybody 110 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 3: ever studied fill in the blank? And I'm like, yes, 111 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 3: there's a chance to take all that esoteric information that 112 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 3: I'm collecting from academic journalism and share it with somebody 113 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 3: who might be curious about it or who can apply 114 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 3: it in some way, And so that that's always a treat. 115 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 3: And I feel like there aren't that many people who 116 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 3: you know, kind of who were that's the way that 117 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 3: they help. And then the other is I really love 118 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 3: making introductions, provided that they're mutually beneficial. And so, you know, 119 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 3: I feel like I, by virtue of the kind of 120 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 3: work that I do, I get to interact with lots 121 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 3: of different industries and kinds of people, and it's just 122 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 3: really fun to connect the dots between two people who 123 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 3: could help each other and or who could create something 124 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 3: really meaningful together. And so I've tried to focus on 125 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 3: those requests. And that means that when somebody reaches out 126 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 3: and it's not in one of those buckets, I'll let 127 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 3: them know that, you know, their request is not in 128 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 3: my wheelhouse, but if I could be helpful by sharing 129 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 3: knowledge or by making an introduction, then you know I'd 130 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 3: be happy to do that. 131 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: What I really like about Adam's approach is that he's 132 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: given a lot of thought as to what he is 133 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: uniquely placed to contribute to when a request is made 134 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: on his time. Personally, I've taken this strategy into my 135 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 1: own life to think about where I can add the 136 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: most value, and with the value that I can add, 137 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: on the other hand, is on power or less than 138 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: what others could add when I'm weighing up different requests 139 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,039 Speaker 1: on my time. So, for example, I get quite a 140 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: few organizational psychology students contacting me for career advice because 141 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist. But the thing is, I'm one 142 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: of many organizational psychologists in Australia, So I now say 143 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: no to this request because being an orgcite doesn't make 144 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: me particularly unique. But then something I do try to 145 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: say yes to media requests and conversations with other CEOs 146 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: about my company's unlimited paid leave policy. So in Australia, 147 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: my company, Inventium was the first company and still only 148 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: one of a handful to offer this kind of policy 149 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: to staff, which I think puts me in a unique 150 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: position to talk about it and some of the keys 151 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: to making policies like that work. 152 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 2: Now. 153 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: The next person for this episode I've included is Mea Freedman. 154 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: Mea Freedman is the co founder and creative director of 155 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: the Muma mea women's network, Australia's largest digital women's media company. 156 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: They reach four million women per month and also have 157 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: the world's largest women's podcast network, with eight shows that 158 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: reached millions of women. This conversation with me starts by 159 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: her describing how she became really good at saying no. 160 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 2: I'm very good at saying no. I used to be 161 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 2: always could not say. I used to be very bad 162 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: at it. 163 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 4: Like most women, I wanted people to like me and 164 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 4: I wanted to not disappoint anybody. And so what I 165 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 4: would do is because I would not want to have 166 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 4: I would not want to make someone feel bad for 167 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 4: the ten seconds that it would take them to read 168 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,719 Speaker 4: that I was turning down whatever they wanted me to do. 169 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 4: I would say okay, just to put that off. But 170 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 4: then what I would do is buy a whole problem 171 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 4: for future me, which was I've promised to go to 172 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 4: Brisbane or do this, or go somewhere after work, and 173 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 4: then that time would come around and I would really 174 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 4: really really not want to do it and it would really, 175 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 4: you know, take a toll on me or my family 176 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 4: or whatever it is. And what I found really helped 177 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 4: is having having rules and not saying I can't, but 178 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 4: saying I don't. So it sounds really subtle, but it's 179 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 4: really relevant. So, like I have a thing, I don't 180 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 4: do black high functions, so I don't do balls, I 181 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 4: don't do dinners. I don't do you know, I don't 182 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 4: do lunches. I don't do lunches during the week. 183 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 2: What else? 184 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 4: I don't do premieres. I don't do speaking engagements or 185 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 4: charity things on weekends. So once you have those don't 186 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 4: it takes the should I should I not? And that's 187 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 4: even I find that those kind of hard and fast 188 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 4: rules help so much in all aspects of life. So 189 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 4: I exercise every day because that's easier than exercising two 190 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 4: or three times a week. It's less mental stress on 191 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 4: me because it's just a non negotiable. It's like cleaning 192 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 4: your teeth. Imagine if you only have to clean your 193 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 4: teeth two or three days a week, and then every night. 194 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 2: You'd go should it be tonight? Oh, I don't know. 195 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 2: But then tomorrow night I'm going to be tigs. I've 196 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 2: got to go to that thing and I don't know. 197 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 4: But instead you just do it every You know, that 198 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,599 Speaker 4: part of your brain doesn't have to think should I 199 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 4: brush my teeth tonight or not? Because you brush your 200 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 4: teeth every day, Same with having a shower, same with 201 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 4: any habit that you have. I'm one of those people 202 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 4: that needs to do it, needs hard and fast rules. Yeah, 203 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 4: otherwise I find myself negotiating with myself and that's exhausting. 204 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 4: So Obama when he was in office, wore the same 205 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 4: He had ten versions of the same blue suit, and 206 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 4: he wore it every day because he said, that's one 207 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 4: less decision I have to make every day, and it 208 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,119 Speaker 4: freeze up my mind to make other decisions. 209 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 210 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 1: Decision fatigue is such a big thing. Yeah, And if 211 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: we can reduce the decisions that we're making, then we're 212 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: going to make better quality decisions. 213 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 214 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: And it's interesting what you say about don't and can't. 215 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: I read some research about that recently where they had 216 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: a group of people that said I can't eat unhealthy food, 217 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: for example, and then there was another group that said 218 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: I don't eat unhealthy food, and in this experiment, they 219 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: were then offer to sack as they were leaving. One 220 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: was healthy, one was unhealthy, and those that said I 221 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: don't eat unhealthy food just even to themselves, with fifty 222 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: percent more likely to get the healthy snack. 223 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 4: So, and people won't argue with you when you say 224 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 4: I don't I'm so sorry. 225 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 2: I don't do lunches. 226 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 4: Then that's very clear. It's like I can't have lunch 227 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 4: on Tuesday? What about Wednesday? Oh? 228 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 2: What about you know? And it's like how about never? 229 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 2: Is never good for you? And it's a clear line 230 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 2: in the sound. 231 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 4: And the other thing I do is that I'm just 232 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 4: very honest, and so I say, thanks so much for 233 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 4: the invitation, but the demands of running a business and 234 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 4: having a young family means that I just can't do 235 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 4: anything except those two things and. 236 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 2: No one A lot. 237 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 4: What I find people are incredibly appreciative if you respond quickly, 238 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 4: because what most people do is go oh, I want 239 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 4: to disappoint them. So I just will just ignore that, 240 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 4: and they might they don't mind a know, I mean, 241 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 4: they prefer yes, but they'll deal with a no. But 242 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 4: it's always thank you so much for getting back to 243 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 4: me quickly. At least I know I can move on now, 244 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 4: and no one can argue when you say work. 245 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 2: In family, no one can go, oh but please. 246 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 4: But I was listening to an interview with Oprah actually 247 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 4: on Gwyneth Paltrow's podcast Goup, and Oprah was saying talking 248 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 4: about saying no, and she said, you know, people will 249 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 4: become insistent. And she said, first Tho'll to say to you, Oh, 250 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 4: but it's for the children. And she's like, well, that, 251 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 4: don't try to manipulate me. And then she said, finally 252 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 4: she'll just say are you not hearing my no? And 253 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 4: I was like, oh, that's interesting. 254 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 2: I don't tend to find that. 255 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 4: I tend to find people are pretty respectful and generally 256 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 4: just just like an answer. 257 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 2: But I say yes to a lot as well. 258 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 4: But I have to be conscious that my time and 259 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 4: my energy is a finite resource and who and what 260 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 4: are my priorities. 261 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: I really like how Mia has hard and fast rules 262 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: for saying no, and this is something I've tried to 263 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: implement in my own life, which is definitely save my 264 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: decision making power on numerous occasions. 265 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 2: So as I said earlier. 266 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: I say a blanket no to people who want to 267 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: pick my brain over coffee. And because I get quite 268 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: a few of these requests every week, this saves me 269 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: so much brain power because I don't have to have 270 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: this internal tug of war about whether or not I 271 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: should or shouldn't say yes. And it also gets rid 272 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: of the guilt that I used to feel for saying 273 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: no to these types of requests, because it's not personal. 274 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: It's just a blanket no. It's something that I don't do. 275 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 1: I now want to move on to Rachel Botsman. Rachel 276 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: is a world renowned expert on technology and trust and 277 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: the author of best selling books Who Can You Trust? 278 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: And What's Mine Is Yours. She's also a lecturer at 279 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: Oxford University and has been recognized as one of the 280 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: most creative people in Business by Fast Company and as 281 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: one of the fifty most influential management thinkers in the world. 282 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: Here is Rachel talking about how she decides whether to 283 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: say yes or whether to say no. 284 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 5: It's funny. It's one of my goals I've been working 285 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 5: on this year, not saying no, but finding myself less 286 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 5: in situations where I'm like, why did I say yes 287 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 5: to be honest when there's an email that can I 288 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 5: pick your brain or it's really really long. I get 289 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 5: a lot of requests from students doing masters or dissertations 290 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 5: that aren't part of the course that I teach that 291 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 5: you have to say no to, and I always try 292 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 5: and direct them to a resource. I always try and 293 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 5: close the loop and be helpful. You also get a sense, 294 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 5: I'm getting a better sense when someone's quite hard to 295 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 5: shut down, and then being more comfortable that you don't 296 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 5: have to be the person to reply, so you put 297 00:14:55,200 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 5: that on someone on your team. But the thing that 298 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 5: I've really started to ask myself is what is the 299 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 5: intentions of this person or why are they asking me 300 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 5: to write this piece? Why they asking me to do 301 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 5: this interview? And if there's an alignment. So you really 302 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 5: believe in what this person's doing and you think it's 303 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 5: good for your work and you think it's interesting, then 304 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 5: you consider it does that make sense? So I think 305 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 5: sometimes you're like, oh, can you get can you write 306 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 5: a piece for the Guardian oka And you're like, oh, yeah, 307 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 5: you know, New York Times should totally do that, But 308 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 5: then you know they A really good example is they 309 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 5: might be pushing for an op ed on Facebook that's 310 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 5: completely contrary to your opinion, and you get halfway through 311 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 5: and you're battling with the editor and you're thinking, well, 312 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 5: why didn't I ask them where they were coming from? 313 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 5: Because then you have to abandon ship midway through. So 314 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 5: being okay, just saying no to people that really actually 315 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 5: don't value your time because they're just saying pick your brain, 316 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 5: finding a way to help people when they shut them down, 317 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 5: and also making you know, a clean no. How do 318 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 5: you do that? So often it's better when it doesn't 319 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 5: come from me. She's just not available, no reason. 320 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: Mmmmm yeah, So this will be your assistant, don't. 321 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, especially with speaking of request, because if you say 322 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 5: something like even something like I'm really sorry she can't attend, 323 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 5: what is that why? Or like if we sweeten the deal? 324 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: Was she? You know? 325 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 5: And then you have to ask yourself, you know, if 326 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 5: they come back and they said X and then they 327 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 5: double the amount, you've put yourself in a very tricky 328 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 5: situation because then you you've said no, and then you're 329 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 5: showing all money can actually change that, which is not 330 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 5: good for anyone. Then really, you know, the other thing 331 00:16:55,080 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 5: on the calendar is like absolute no go days, kids, 332 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 5: first day of school, like all these things. It doesn't 333 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 5: matter what it is. It's different with different people. No 334 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 5: go days, I'm no go days, and sometimes you have 335 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 5: to invent a nogay day, you know, like if someone 336 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 5: does if it's a really tricky no, I'm really sorry. 337 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 5: But one of the kids is the lead and a play. 338 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: I like what Rachel says about saying a clean no, 339 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: because I think it's often the harder option to do 340 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 1: this messy knows I find it easy because they feel 341 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: like the more polite option, Like for me, a messy 342 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: no might be to say I can't help right now, 343 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: but feel free to get in touch in a few months, 344 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 1: when really I'm just hoping that the person will forget 345 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: to get back in touch in a few months time. 346 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 2: So what I should have done in. 347 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: These circumstances is just say no. The next person that 348 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: I want to go to is Sarah Green Carmichael. Sarah 349 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: is an executive editor at Harvard Business Review, where she 350 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: works out what to publish on the site and edits 351 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: the articles that you might have read there. Sarah is 352 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: also the host of hbr's idea Cast podcast, which gets 353 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: over one million downloads every month. In this clip, Sarah 354 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: talks about how she says no regarding a very specific 355 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: part of her job, which is rejecting submissions to HBr. 356 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 6: One of the things that I often procrastinate is evaluating 357 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 6: new pitches of new ideas for HBr, because anytime I'm 358 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 6: evaluating new pitches, it means I will have to sit 359 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 6: down and write rejections, and writing rejection letters is my 360 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 6: least favorite thing to do. So I just have an 361 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 6: hour on my calendar every week that's just for writing 362 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 6: rejections so that I can just sit down and just 363 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:46,959 Speaker 6: get it done and make myself do it and just 364 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 6: move on. 365 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: Have you mastered the art of writing like a polite 366 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 1: or nice rejection letter? 367 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 2: I try? I try. 368 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 6: I try to always be brief, clear and to give 369 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 6: a reason because I think, you know, you don't really 370 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 6: need to like belabor it. Most of the time people 371 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 6: are just sort of looking for yes or no answer. 372 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 6: But I always try to say, you know, thank you 373 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 6: for sharing this idea with me, I'm so glad you 374 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 6: thought of HBr. And then this isn't going to work, 375 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 6: We've already covered it, or you know this just isn't 376 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 6: quite the right fit for our audience. Try to give 377 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 6: some reason, even if it's not detailed feedback, and then 378 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 6: just sort of thank them again. 379 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 2: But I always try to keep. 380 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,959 Speaker 6: In mind that, you know, people could forward these emails 381 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 6: to anyone. You know, Once I send that email, it's 382 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,919 Speaker 6: like out there in the world. So not only do 383 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 6: I want the people reading it to have an okay 384 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 6: experience given that they're being rejected, I also try to 385 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 6: keep in mind even if there are times when I 386 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 6: might be tempted to send a kind of stroppy email 387 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 6: or sort of flaming kind of Oh, I can't believe 388 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 6: you said this to me, because like we all have 389 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 6: bad days, we're all tempted sometimes to do that. I think, 390 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 6: do I want this to end up on like BuzzFeed? 391 00:19:59,680 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 3: You know? 392 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 2: No, I don't. 393 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 6: I want to treat people kindly and with compassion. 394 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: I think this is kind of similar to what Rachel 395 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: said about the clean No, and I like how Sarah 396 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,239 Speaker 1: emphasizes that knows can be brief, and in fact that 397 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 1: this is often more effective. I used to feel that 398 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: when I would email someone back and know for a 399 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: particular request that I'd have to write a whole novel 400 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,679 Speaker 1: justifying my no. But these days I just keep it 401 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: short and sweet, and so far that's been fine, as 402 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: far as I know. The final conversation I want to 403 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: share in this episode is with Nancy Duarte. Nancy's firm 404 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: Duartepe is the largest design firm in Silicon Valley. They 405 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: help very big and famous companies and people from Apple 406 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: through to al Gore, design and deliver great presentations. Nancy's 407 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: also written several books about storytelling and presentations, including the 408 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 1: Harvard Business Review Guide to Creating Persuasive Presentations. In this 409 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: final clip, Nancy talks about her tricks for saying no 410 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: polite late. The conversation starts with me asking Nancy how 411 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: she decides what to say yes to versus what to 412 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: say no to. 413 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 7: Well, what's funny is, for a long time it was 414 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 7: based solely on what had the most leverage, so speaking 415 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 7: gigs would be based on the size of the audience. 416 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 7: But then it became well, I got you know, you 417 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 7: get leverage. It's like, well, it's the size of the audience, 418 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 7: and is it an audience that is it the right 419 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 7: audience to maybe bring work into the firm. So I start, 420 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 7: you know, then my filter got tighter and tighter, or 421 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 7: I do get a lot. I uh, every email I 422 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 7: get that has an unsubscribed gets unsubscribed from my assistant 423 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 7: helps with that. I also have I I have a 424 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 7: lot of people that want my time, and so I 425 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 7: let me think about this. It's a good question. I 426 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 7: do have this mechanism with my assistant where I have 427 00:21:55,040 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 7: three salutations. One of the salutations is do not let 428 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 7: them get off. I can be enthusiastic, I'm my god, 429 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 7: this is great, Oh my god, this would be fantastic. 430 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 7: And then if I use the salutation, it means no way, 431 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 7: no way, let them on my calendar, you know. So 432 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 7: I have different and this one is. Another one is 433 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 7: I'm interested, but scheduled in when it's best, so she 434 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 7: knows I have a certain capacity for outside, you know, activities. 435 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 7: And then the other one is if I do it 436 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 7: another certain ways, I make this as immediate as possible. 437 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 7: So that's how I tell her. But I've not had 438 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 7: anyone ask how I filter them out. And sometimes it's 439 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 7: like sometimes, you know, I filtered someone out and then 440 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 7: when they reached out again, or when I met them socially, 441 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 7: I realized there was a very very famous venture capitalist, 442 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 7: and he became famous. He was reaching out to me 443 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 7: when he was just a wee pup of wealth. He 444 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 7: wasn't a billionaire yet, he was just a millionaire. And 445 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 7: I kept filtering him out. He's tenacious, tenacious, tenacious, and 446 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 7: I'm like, filtered out, filtered out right. And I met 447 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 7: him at a and then he threw a big, swanky 448 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 7: party and I didn't know it. I'm like, uh, no, 449 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,239 Speaker 7: I went to a party, but I didn't realize it 450 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 7: was at his place. I didn't know what was at 451 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 7: his I showed up and I realized how everyone was 452 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 7: worshiping this guy, just worshiping. And when I met and 453 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 7: went to introduce myself, he's like, you blew me off, 454 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 7: like you just, you know, chewed me out. I didn't. 455 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 7: I didn't, you know. So I have filtered out, maybe 456 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 7: the wrong, and hey and I are friends now. But 457 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 7: it's just hard. It's just hard. I don't know how 458 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 7: other people do it. And it's disappointing that I can't 459 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 7: meet everyone. But I'm protected and I'm I'm healthier that way. 460 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: I think, how do you have strategies for saying no? 461 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: And I go to say I'm loving the card language, 462 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: the ease with your assistance. That's wonderful. But did I 463 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: do that? 464 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 4: You know? 465 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,239 Speaker 7: That's how I That's a lot of times how I 466 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 7: say no. You have to be I am generous, Like 467 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 7: one of our values at Duarte is to be generous experts, 468 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 7: and I do think you can be. You can put 469 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 7: yourself into what I would call almost like altruistic danger 470 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 7: because you're so kind, you know. And so that is 471 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 7: one of the ways that I say no is through 472 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 7: the salutation to the not the salutation, but the I 473 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 7: guess it's a salutation at the end of an email. 474 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 7: How I address my goodbye to the person. That's how 475 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 7: most of it's done. Others I others I I just 476 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 7: I have to say no to This isn't adore it. 477 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 7: This is amazing because I get a lot of requests 478 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 7: for money for contributions. Can we donate workshops? Can we 479 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 7: you know? And I try to accommodate as many as 480 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 7: I can if it doesn't have you know, financial harm. 481 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 7: But I flip it. I'll copy someone on my team 482 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 7: on it so that they either say yes or no 483 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 7: and can decide if it's a match or if it's 484 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 7: just not of interest. I just say, ah, I just 485 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 7: really can't at this time. I get a lot of 486 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,120 Speaker 7: asks to do blurbs for books, and if I'm close 487 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 7: and I know the person, I'll look at the book. 488 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 7: I have a stack of about twelve of them I 489 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 7: need to really read. So I'll just say, you know, 490 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 7: I admire you. Send me the book. Let me just 491 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 7: flip through it versus read it, and then let's co 492 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 7: create a blurb. You take a pass. It's just things 493 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 7: you do to act to buy time. I do a 494 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 7: lot of things to buy time. I say, I can 495 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 7: say I only do that though when I'm on a deadline. 496 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: I love the fact that Nancy has her different codes 497 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: with her EA. I think that the idea of having 498 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: some kind of gatekeeper like that can be very helpful 499 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: in making it easier to say no. 500 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 2: So I think so that if you're listening to this 501 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 2: and you don't. 502 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: Have your own EA, it can be worth thinking about 503 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: whether there is someone at your work or in your 504 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: life that could play this gatekeeper role for you. So 505 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: that brings us to the end of this first mixtape. 506 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: Like episode, I'd love to hear what you thought and 507 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: if you'd like more of these episodes where I delve 508 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: into a particular theme. My email address is always in 509 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: the show notes if you want to send through any 510 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: kind of feedback. And finally, before you skip over to 511 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 1: another podcast, I have a little favor to ask. It's 512 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: great getting feedback from listeners such as yourself, so I 513 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 1: would be so appreciative if you could give this podcast 514 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: a review in iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts. 515 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: And if you like this episode, make sure you hit 516 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 1: the subscribe button so that you can be alerted when 517 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 1: new episodes are released. See you next time.