1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Do you ever catch yourself rehearsing what you'll say at work, 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: may be terrified that one wrong phrase could turn people 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: against you. I've definitely felt that fear myself, and Claire Stephens, 4 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: when she was editor in chief at Mamma Mia lived too. 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: Claire told me the turning point was accepting mistakes, her 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: own and everyone else's. And by the end of this 7 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: quick win you'll hear how Claire reframed mistakes as part 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: of moving forward, and why the most powerful apology is 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: often the simplest one, sure, unreserved, and then done. Welcome 10 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and 11 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: strategies for optimizing your date. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. 12 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: You know when I heard other leaders talking about this, 13 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: I remember just going, oh, I've so experienced that, Like 14 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: in my own business, where you know, there have been 15 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: times where I've just been so like conscious of what 16 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: I'm saying, like in like you know, and all staff 17 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: meeting and like rehearsing, which which seems like ridiculous We're 18 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: a small business, we're a small team, but like just 19 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: having that real fear of like if I say even 20 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: the wrong phrase or the wrong sentence, like people could 21 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: just turn on me, and I feel like some of 22 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: that's irrational, But then, you know, I've also seen instances, 23 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: you know, in people I work with and advise, where 24 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: it's like, ah, yeah, you know that can kind of happen. 25 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: So like, how did you navigate it when when you 26 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: were editor in chief? 27 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 2: I tried to very much accept that I was going 28 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 2: to make mistakes and other people were going to make mistakes. 29 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 2: What's hard is probably if you have a culture where 30 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: you're really hard on other people for making mistakes and 31 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 2: quite you know, really making it about who they are 32 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 2: rather than what they did. I think that probably comes 33 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 2: back at you. Whereas if you foster a culture of 34 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,399 Speaker 2: we all have to try things, and we are all 35 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 2: going to stuff up and do the wrong thing and 36 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 2: make the wrong call, but we've got to make decisions 37 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: and we've got to move forward, and I'm prepared to 38 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 2: learn from my missteps and I want you to be 39 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 2: as well. I think a big part of that is autonomy. 40 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 2: Fostering autonomy because then people see that they make mistakes too, 41 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 2: and if there's grace for those, they'll give you grace. 42 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: But yeah, I think it's because as a leader as well. 43 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: Pragmatism is so important, and pragmatism is different from idealism, 44 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 2: and there are many times where you cannot do the 45 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 2: ideal thing because of a million different factors. And it's 46 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: really easy when you don't have the responsibility to look 47 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 2: up and think, well, I would have done it this way, 48 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 2: and I would have just done this, and you're like, 49 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 2: oh god, if you were juggling all the invisible things 50 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 2: are juggling and had to make the tough call, and 51 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: it's like, maybe you would have, and I'm sure you 52 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 2: get the opportunity one day, but you know, there's a 53 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 2: lot about being a leader that's really hard. So I 54 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 2: think that that's the important thing. Having a culture where 55 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 2: people are allowed to make mistakes and you give them 56 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 2: grace to that, and where communication is really direct and open, 57 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 2: so there's no kind of not bitchiness, but there's no 58 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 2: kind of you know, this invisible tension that's bubbling away 59 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: where you're actually nipping things in the bud. I think 60 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 2: that that makes a big difference. 61 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: I want to know about apologies, because that's obviously generally 62 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: some kind of conclusion is an apology, and I feel 63 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: like there's been so much written about how to apologize, 64 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: Tell me, like, what is the best way to apologize? 65 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 2: In the book, I explore very much the fact that online, 66 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 2: I'm not sure there is a best way to apologize. 67 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 2: I have seen people apologize in really, really effective ways, 68 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 2: but I think there's certain types of people who already 69 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 2: have very very very good grace and are only guilty 70 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 2: in inverted commas of certain relatively minor social crimes. But 71 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 2: I think once you are perceived in a certain way, 72 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 2: no matter what you say is going to be interpreted 73 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 2: in bad faith. For example, there are many many cases 74 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: where you really want to explain the context behind something 75 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 2: that's happened, because you're thinking, if only people knew the context, 76 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: finally people knew all the behind the scenes things that 77 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 2: led to this decision. Most of the time people don't care, 78 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 2: and most of the time people will tear them apart 79 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 2: because there's no way. There's not enough words to add 80 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 2: the right weight to that and to provide all the 81 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: relevant details. There's just not so I think often the 82 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 2: best way to apologize is short and no, unreservedly. There's 83 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 2: no excuses, there's just I'm apologizing, and then actually move 84 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: on because The thing about the media cycle, and this 85 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 2: has been a really interesting thing to learn working in 86 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 2: digital media is an apology is another story. So if 87 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 2: I'm working in digital media and say there's the Coldplay 88 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,679 Speaker 2: scandal that blew up recently, the guy the Coldplay concert 89 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 2: who cheats on his wife and hooks up with someone, 90 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 2: that story is just going uts writing about it, writing 91 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 2: about it, writing about it. If he publishes an apology 92 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:44,799 Speaker 2: there was a fake one, there's all that my stuff, 93 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 2: which adds so much complexity. But if he publishes an apology, 94 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 2: that's another opportunity to run a story. And then if 95 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 2: he posts something else about it, that's another opportunity. So 96 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 2: the more you do, the more it actually just adds 97 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 2: fuel to the fire. So the less you do, the 98 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 2: quicker the fire ends. For the mental health of the 99 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 2: person at the center of it. I think that's ideal, 100 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 2: but I think you have to accept that you're not 101 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 2: going to satisfy everyone. There has never been an apology 102 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 2: online that has satisfied moral benchmark for every single person, 103 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 2: and so you just have to be as direct and 104 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 2: I think brief as possible. And it's a really important 105 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 2: thing as well for people whose work depends on being online. 106 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 2: Be very aware that who you are online is not 107 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 2: who you are. That is an avatar, that is a 108 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 2: version of you, that is a character, and the real 109 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 2: you that goes home and has relationships with your family 110 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 2: and goes through the world is a different person. And 111 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 2: not to conflate the two. I think that's when it 112 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 2: gets really dangerous. 113 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: How about apologies in the workplace. I imagine you've had 114 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: to make apologies when you're in a leadership role. What 115 00:06:58,560 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: are the differences. 116 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 2: I have made many, many, many apologies probably looking back, 117 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 2: and I think probably some people I managed would say 118 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: there's probably too many. I think there's a line between 119 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 2: being very accepting of the fact that you make mistakes 120 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 2: and then being a bit of a people pleaser, and 121 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: being a people pleaser is socially confusing for people. I 122 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 2: very much kind of came out the other end of 123 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: being editor in chief, thinking that's actually not helpful for 124 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 2: people if you tell them what they want to hear 125 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 2: all the time. So if someone's annoyed at you, that's 126 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: not necessarily something you have to apologize for. And I 127 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 2: only learned that recently. If somebody was annoyed at me, 128 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 2: I was like, I am so sorry I've done the 129 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: wrong thing. 130 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: How did you learn that lesson. 131 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 2: From my interactions with other people who didn't do that? 132 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: And I think it's a maturity thing. I've had female 133 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 2: managers who are just freaking brilliant at being able to 134 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 2: say like, I can see you're frustrated, I can see 135 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 2: you're upset forward, but they're not apologizing for what they 136 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 2: did because they often haven't done the wrong thing. But 137 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 2: it also just it makes you feel safe. It makes 138 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 2: you feel safe that they own their decision making and 139 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 2: that they are being honest with you. They're not telling 140 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 2: you what you want to hear. I think that that's 141 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 2: the best thing in the workplace is transparency and honesty. 142 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: So I think apologize when you've done the wrong thing, 143 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 2: even and this is hard, but to I think sometimes 144 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 2: I'm thinking like as a leader, apologizing to your team, 145 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 2: but also apologizing upwards when you stuff up, which can 146 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 2: be really embarrassing. But I think if you say, hey, 147 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 2: you gave me this project and I really run with it, 148 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: and in hindsight a run in the wrong direction like 149 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 2: that just shows a lot of self awareness and definitely 150 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 2: shows that person that they can trust you again because 151 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 2: you've learned your lesson. 152 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: Clai's a reminder really stayed with me that overapologizing can 153 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: be confusing and it can also make people doubt your decisions. 154 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: So instead, Claire learned to apologize only when she genuinely 155 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: made the wrong call, and to do it clearly even 156 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 1: when it was embarrassing. Kind of like owning a project 157 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: that had gone in the wrong direction. So the next 158 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: time someone's upset, pause before saying sorry, ask is this 159 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: a real mistake or just tension? I want to smooth 160 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: over and if this resonates. The full episode with Claire 161 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: goes deeper into apologies online and at work, and the 162 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: culture leaders need to create so people feel safe to 163 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: get things wrong. You'll find the link to that in 164 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: the show notes. If you like today's show, make sure 165 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: you gud follow on your podcast app to be alerted 166 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: when new episodes drop. How I Work was recorded on 167 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: the traditional land and of the Warring Jerry people, part 168 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: of the Colon nation.