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Speaker 1: The biggest thing that I've done that's really helpful for me,

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Speaker 1: because as somebody who has a hard time saying no,

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Speaker 1: is that I've started writing standard responses that I spend

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Speaker 1: a lot of time crafting, because again, I feel so

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Speaker 1: terrible about not helping people at every opportunity that I get,

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Speaker 1: especially as somebody who does research on helping, that I've

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Speaker 1: taken the time to just carefully craft a response explaining

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Speaker 1: like why it is that I'm saying no to this

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Speaker 1: whole class of requests that I get, for example, And

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Speaker 1: I have that now in the drafts at the top

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Speaker 1: of the drafts folder of my inbox, so I can

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Speaker 1: just copy and paste it into their response.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the technics

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Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of

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Speaker 2: their day. I'm your iis doctor Amantha Inba. I'm an

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Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, and I'm

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Speaker 2: obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date. My

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Speaker 2: guest today is doctor Elizabeth D. Done, who is a

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Speaker 2: professor in the Department of Psychology at the University of

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Speaker 2: British Columbia. Elizabeth's research looks at how time, money and

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Speaker 2: technology shape human happiness, and she's also the co author

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Speaker 2: of a brilliant book called Happy Money, The Science of

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Speaker 2: Happier Spending with doctor Michael Norton. Elizabeth's research has been

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Speaker 2: featured in one hundreds of media outlets around the world,

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Speaker 2: including The New York Times, The Globe and Mail, The

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Speaker 2: London Times, Time, and CNN. Now. I connected with Elizabeth

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Speaker 2: a couple of months ago at TED twenty nineteen in Vancouver,

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Speaker 2: where she actually gave one of my favorite talks of

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Speaker 2: the week on how helping others can make us happier,

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Speaker 2: but it all matters in terms of how we give

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Speaker 2: that help. In this chat with Elizabeth, we talk about

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Speaker 2: how she has applied a lot of her own research

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Speaker 2: into leading a happier life, and as well as sharing

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Speaker 2: some great insights on how to spend money to be

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Speaker 2: she also has some really awesome tips around making the

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Speaker 2: act of saying no to people much easier, which I

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Speaker 2: immediately borrowed after I heard them. So on that note,

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Speaker 2: over to Elizabeth to hear about how she works. Hello, Elizabeth,

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Speaker 2: welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Hi, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: So we were both at TED twenty nineteen in Vancouver

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Speaker 2: a few weeks ago, and your talk was absolutely one

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Speaker 2: of the highlights of my week. And I'm wondering if

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Speaker 2: you can describe what you found about happiness and being

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Speaker 2: charitable and specifically how you've applied this in your own life. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So I actually started doing this research not so much

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Speaker 1: because I was interested in charitable giving, but because I

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Speaker 1: was interested in money. After I got my first faculty job,

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Speaker 1: I suddenly started making money, and I wondered, you know, oh,

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Speaker 1: people are like actually paying me, you know, what do

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Speaker 1: I do with them? Because I was used to being

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Speaker 1: a grad student living at the poverty line, where you're

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Speaker 1: just trying to survive, right, So I started to do

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Speaker 1: these studies to figure out how people could get the

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Speaker 1: most happiness out of their money. And one of our

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Speaker 1: earliest findings was that people seem to get more happiness

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Speaker 1: from spending money on others rather than on themselves. And

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Speaker 1: these early findings made a big splash, But then we

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Speaker 1: kind of got curious about, you know, when, under what

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Speaker 1: conditions does giving actually lead to happiness. So we were

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Speaker 1: able to kind of identify when these benefits were bigger

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Speaker 1: versus smaller, and as we were finding this out, in

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Speaker 1: the lab, I was beginning to think about how to

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Speaker 1: give differently in my own life. So one of the

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Speaker 1: things we see is that people feel more joy from

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Speaker 1: giving to others when they can really see the impact

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Speaker 1: that their generosity is having. And yet a lot of

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Speaker 1: terrible giving opportunities just don't give us much of a

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Speaker 1: window into how we're really making a difference. So, as

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Speaker 1: I discussed in the Ted talk, I started really gravitating

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Speaker 1: toward these opportunities that enabled me to actually see how

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Speaker 1: I was making a difference.

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Speaker 2: And can tell me about what that then led to

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Speaker 2: in terms of like around the Group of five law

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Speaker 2: in Vancouver.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I am very fortunate to live in Canada,

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Speaker 1: which has this incredible set of private refugee sponsorship programs

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Speaker 1: where basically just ordinary Canadians can kind of get together

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Speaker 1: and form a little group and sponsor a family of

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Speaker 1: refugees to come and move and like, you know what's

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Speaker 1: really cool about this is you raise enough money to

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Speaker 1: support the refugees for their first year in Canada and

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Speaker 1: then they get on a plane to your city. So

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Speaker 1: we got to you know, it was like the ultimate

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Speaker 1: experience of getting to see impact because we actually got

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Speaker 1: to go to the airport and meet our family who

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Speaker 1: we've been raising money to help. And then and we

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Speaker 1: just celebrated their one year anniversary actually arriving in Canada

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Speaker 1: just last week, and so we've kind of been through

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Speaker 1: that whole journey with them since they arrived in Canada.

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Speaker 1: So it's just this incredible experience that just like blows

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Speaker 1: past all other terrible giving experiences I've ever had in

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Speaker 1: my life.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing. And I loved how you shared that in

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Speaker 2: the Ted talk and I'll definitely link to that in

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Speaker 2: the show notes so that listeners can can kind of

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Speaker 2: get the full story. And now, in terms of other

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Speaker 2: ways that you can use your money to increase happiness,

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Speaker 2: like I just love the research that you've done into

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Speaker 2: this around spending time. Spending money buying time rather than

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Speaker 2: material goods increases happiness. And this is something that I

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Speaker 2: feel like I often apply this in my own life.

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Speaker 2: Like one of my most happiest ways of spending money

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Speaker 2: is that a few months ago, I realized that I

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Speaker 2: was spending like at least a couple of hours cutting

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Speaker 2: vegetables on the weaken. So we'd go to the markets,

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Speaker 2: we'd get vegetables for the family, and I would then

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Speaker 2: be cutting them for hours and it was so boring.

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Speaker 2: And then I thought, why didn't I just put an

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Speaker 2: ad on air task which is kind of like task Grabbit.

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Speaker 2: And I've found someone, this most amazing person, Leah, who

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Speaker 2: comes over every Sunday and spends two hours cutting vegetables.

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Speaker 2: And this brings me no end of happiness. And I'm

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Speaker 2: wondering in your own life, how how have you applied

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Speaker 2: this research finding?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is definitely what researcher are sometimes called

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Speaker 1: research where I've definitely struggled with this, you know, fundamental

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Speaker 1: dilemma that I think so many of us face these days,

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Speaker 1: which is just there's so much more to do and

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Speaker 1: so much so many more things I want to do

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Speaker 1: than I have time to do. And so you know,

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Speaker 1: if we can kind of just accept the notion that like, hey,

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Speaker 1: you know, I could actually pay somebody to cut the

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Speaker 1: vegetables for me or do whatever it is that like

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Speaker 1: I need help with, you can free up so much

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Speaker 1: time for yourself. So you know, one way that I

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Speaker 1: use this in my own life is basically just to

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Speaker 1: win a fight with my husband. So you know, we

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Speaker 1: had debated he is somebody who is a really good cleaner,

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Speaker 1: which I know, like I'm very lucky, I guess to

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Speaker 1: have married this great man who's also like fabulous at

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Speaker 1: like vacuuming and cleaning up. I am terrible at cleaning up,

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Speaker 1: Like I hate it. It takes me forever, Like my

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Speaker 1: husband just marvels at the amount of time it takes

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Speaker 1: me to like clean up our teeny tiny kitchen. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: I've always been in favor of paying somebody to come

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Speaker 1: in and help with the cleaning each week, and he

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Speaker 1: has always disagreed with me on that. And so, you know,

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Speaker 1: once we published eight studies in one of the leading

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Speaker 1: scientific journals demonstrating that people who use money to buy

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Speaker 1: time like that are happier than those who don't. You know,

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Speaker 1: I declared that I had won the fight, and he agreed,

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Speaker 1: and we have at this point we have a wonderful

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Speaker 1: friend of the family who comes in every week and

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Speaker 1: cleans up for a few hours, such that like my

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Speaker 1: complete and confidence in this area doesn't impair the quality

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Speaker 1: of my marriage or mean that like I have to

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Speaker 1: devote my whole Saturday afternoon to trying to make our

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Speaker 1: house not be a complete disaster, So that's kind of

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Speaker 1: the biggest way. But I'm actually thinking ahead to this fall.

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Speaker 1: I've had the great privilege of being on sabbatical during

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Speaker 1: the past year, which is like an amazing, amazing feature

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Speaker 1: of academia. So because of that, I've just gotten you know,

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Speaker 1: in a way, sabbatical creates all of this free time,

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Speaker 1: but I just have a way of taking free time

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Speaker 1: and like massively filling it. So it turns out that like,

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Speaker 1: for example, if you give a TED talk, you will

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Speaker 1: give get a lot of email and like often really

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Speaker 1: like interesting things from people all around the world. We

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Speaker 1: want to like chat with you and share step and

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Speaker 1: it's great, but you know, you start to wonder, like

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Speaker 1: how am I going to make time for all of

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Speaker 1: this and also go back to my normal job that

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Speaker 1: I'm actually paid to do, where I teach students and everything.

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Speaker 1: And so what I've decided to do is this fall,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to hire somebody for two hours a day

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Speaker 1: to just come in and do all of this stuff

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Speaker 1: I feel like I don't have time to do that

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to be done by me. And I've actually

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Speaker 1: been taking great pleasure in like starting to think about

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Speaker 1: that list of things that I could just get off

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Speaker 1: my plate and not have hanging over me.

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Speaker 2: That sounds amazing. So what sorts of things is this

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Speaker 2: person going to do well for me?

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Speaker 1: Actually, cutting vegetables is on there. So my six year old,

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Speaker 1: like the only way to get him to be vegetables

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Speaker 1: is to have cut up appealing vegetables out on the

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Speaker 1: table when he walks in the door hungry after school.

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Speaker 1: Otherwise it's not going to happen. But like, and it's

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Speaker 1: not that hard, Like, you know, I have a PhD.

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Speaker 1: Like I graduated SUMA from Harvard, Like, cutting vegetables shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be that hard for me, but like this is supposed

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Speaker 1: is a real challenge in my life. So I yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's gonna that's gonna be one of the things I've also,

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Speaker 1: you know, just like all of the little things that

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Speaker 1: end up on my calendar of like you know, drop

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Speaker 1: off old clothes at the thrift store, pick up dry cleaning,

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Speaker 1: you know, pick up bananas, all of these like little

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Speaker 1: small things that are not that big a deal that

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Speaker 1: create you know, this kind of time confetti where I

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Speaker 1: feel like I don't have the big chunks of time

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Speaker 1: that I want to work on things and so, you know,

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Speaker 1: it just occurred to me of like, oh, I live

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Speaker 1: in a college town where there are always lots of

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Speaker 1: students who need small part time jobs, like a couple

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Speaker 1: hours in the late afternoon. That's flexible, and so for

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Speaker 1: like thirty or forty dollars, I can get all of

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Speaker 1: that stuff done and free out the time that I

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Speaker 1: want to be able to, you know, really engage with students,

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Speaker 1: really dig into writing projects, maybe even respond to some

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Speaker 1: of those emails that I've been getting about the ted

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Speaker 1: talk and so, yeah, that's in my plan for the fall.

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Speaker 2: That's so cool. And look, it's funny when I share

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Speaker 2: my vegetable cutting story. Some I get mixed responses. Some

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Speaker 2: people like that is brilliant, and other people are like, well,

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Speaker 2: don't you feel guilty like you could be doing that yourself?

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Speaker 2: And how do you respond to those people that sort

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Speaker 2: of almost I guess, feel guilty to buy time for themselves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the guilt is real, right, Like we

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Speaker 1: see in our studies that you know, just the thought

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Speaker 1: of paying for help with a dislike task does provoke

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Speaker 1: guilt in some people. And interestingly, what we see is

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Speaker 1: kind of the best predictor of whether people experience guilt

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Speaker 1: when they think about paying for help with a dislike task.

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Speaker 1: Is whether they spontaneously think of a specific other person

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Speaker 1: who would have to take that task on, and whether

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Speaker 1: they see giving that person the task as a burden

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Speaker 1: as opposed to a benefit to the service provider. So

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Speaker 1: if you feel like, oh, oh gosh, by offloading this task,

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Speaker 1: I'm sticking somebody else with this terrible thing that I

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Speaker 1: hate doing, then you know, it's not surprising at all

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Speaker 1: that that provokes guilt. And we do see that if

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Speaker 1: you experience that kind of guilt, it does kind of

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Speaker 1: undercut the happiness that you might otherwise experience from being

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Speaker 1: able to get rid of that task. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think one way to think about it is just

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Speaker 1: can you find a way to offload this task in

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Speaker 1: a way that would actually maybe be a benefit to

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Speaker 1: the person who you're hiring. So, you know, for me,

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Speaker 1: I think of it as Okay, students need jobs that

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Speaker 1: are compatible with being able to study. Right, So a

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Speaker 1: job that's actually flexible, that is kind of out a

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Speaker 1: little bit outside of typical class hours, you know, that

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Speaker 1: they can kind of do on their own and in

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Speaker 1: their own time, is actually going to be beneficial, and

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Speaker 1: so that I think about it, and obviously making sure

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Speaker 1: you're paying them fairly and just being nice and polite

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Speaker 1: and respectful and treating them like a person, then you know,

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Speaker 1: I think of it as actually providing a benefit to

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Speaker 1: the students as well as, you know, a massive benefit

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Speaker 1: to me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such great advice. I want to move on

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Speaker 2: to your inbox, which you've mentioned might be slightly overflowing.

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Speaker 2: And you published research a few years ago around the

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Speaker 2: optimal way to check email, I guess, and I'm curious

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Speaker 2: if you could just share, you know, the findings of

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Speaker 2: that research and also how do you approach your own

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Speaker 2: inbox to maximize happiness.

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Speaker 1: So I got curious about email when I like basically

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Speaker 1: broke our university email server. But I was just getting

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Speaker 1: so much email that, like, at the time, our email

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Speaker 1: system was called squirrel mail, which like brought to mind

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Speaker 1: these like little squirrels desperately running and trying to keep

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Speaker 1: up with my inbox. But anyway, I was just getting

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Speaker 1: so much email that like literally the email system at

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Speaker 1: the time like was having trouble handling it, and I

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Speaker 1: was having trouble handling it. And I thought, Okay, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm a behavioral scientist. I should be able to use

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Speaker 1: the tools of science to figure out how we could

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Speaker 1: do this better. And so, working with my former graduate student,

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Speaker 1: custom In Kushlev, we just undertook, you know, an exploratory

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Speaker 1: study to try to try to figure this out. And

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Speaker 1: part of our reasoning is that, you know, a challenge

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Speaker 1: that email poses is that it kind of tempts us

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Speaker 1: to constantly be switching tasks. So you might be preparing

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Speaker 1: a talk or working on some other project, but you've

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Speaker 1: got your email inbox open, and so you're tempted to

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Speaker 1: just kind of switch back and forth between email and

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Speaker 1: whatever else you're you're focusing on. And it turns out

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Speaker 1: that that kind of task switch switching can be pretty

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Speaker 1: cognitively costly. It takes us quite a while to mentally

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Speaker 1: go back and forth between those different kinds of tasks,

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Speaker 1: so we're actually losing time along the way. It's like

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Speaker 1: you're paying a little tax every time you switch tasks.

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Speaker 1: So it's a task tax, say that ten times fast.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, so we reason then that if you could

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Speaker 1: just get people to check email a little less often,

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Speaker 1: like three times a day or maybe five times a

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Speaker 1: day that that should reduce the amount of task switching

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Speaker 1: they were doing and therefore potentially reduce the level of

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Speaker 1: stress they were experiencing, this feeling of being overwhelmed. So

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Speaker 1: what we did was we assign people to alter the

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Speaker 1: way that they manage their email. So we asked people

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Speaker 1: to try to just check their email three times a

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Speaker 1: day for a week. Now, as anyone who has ever

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Speaker 1: tried to run an experiment or run a company or anything,

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Speaker 1: we'll know like, there's what you ask people to do,

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Speaker 1: and then there's what they actually do. And so we

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Speaker 1: asked people to check their email three times a day.

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Speaker 1: On average, I think it was more like five times

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Speaker 1: a day did they checked the email, But still it was

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Speaker 1: substantially less than the number of times people checked email

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Speaker 1: the control condition when we just said, you know, we

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Speaker 1: actually said to try to check their email frequently. And

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Speaker 1: when we said to check their email frequently during the

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Speaker 1: day throughout the day, they basically did what they'd always

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Speaker 1: been doing, which was to check email like at least

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Speaker 1: a dozen times a day or so. Now, what we

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Speaker 1: saw is that people ended up feeling significantly less spressed

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Speaker 1: on a day to day basis when they just restricted

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Speaker 1: themselves to checking email, you know, three or five times

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Speaker 1: a day, as opposed to like constantly frequently going back

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Speaker 1: and forth between their inbox and whatever else they were

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Speaker 1: working on.

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Speaker 2: And so, how have you applied that in your own life?

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Speaker 2: Because I think that that's great advice, But then email

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Speaker 2: is super addictive in terms of how it's designed. So

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Speaker 2: how how do you do that in your own life?

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Speaker 2: Is that shea willpower and discipline to only check a

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Speaker 2: handful of times? What does that look like? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean I sometimes feel like a cardiologist too, smokes,

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Speaker 1: because I'm a happiness researcher and I do not do

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Speaker 1: everything right. I mean, part of the point of my

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Speaker 1: ted talk is that, you know, it takes a lot

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Speaker 1: of time and effort to actually apply these lessons from

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Speaker 1: happiness science effectively, but I do try it take it seriously.

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Speaker 1: Actually met with the founders of a company called Boomerang

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Speaker 1: that created this thing called inbox Pause, which is an

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Speaker 1: add on for Gmail that allows you to just pause

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Speaker 1: your inbox so you can decide, Hey, for the next

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Speaker 1: three hours, I don't want any email to come in,

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Speaker 1: which is really useful because the trap that I fall

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Speaker 1: into with email is I go to it because I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to find something for like the talk that I'm giving,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I need a little bit of information

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Speaker 1: about how long it was supposed to be, or something

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Speaker 1: that's contained in an email, and I go to find

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Speaker 1: that out, and then I see four new messages and

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Speaker 1: I get caught up and checking those instead of, you know,

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Speaker 1: just going back to the task I was originally working on.

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Speaker 1: So that's where that inbox pause feature comes in handy.

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Speaker 1: I also try to batch my emails as much as

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Speaker 1: I can, so to you know, just do a bunch

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Speaker 1: of them all at once rather than checking throughout the day.

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Speaker 1: But again I am not perfect at this. So if

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Speaker 1: you talk to somebody who is like I would love

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Speaker 1: to hear them on your podcast. It is really challenging,

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Speaker 1: you know, And certainly I would advise people whose jobs

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Speaker 1: depend on quickly responding to email to cut down checking

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Speaker 1: email to just a few times a day. But if

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Speaker 1: you're somebody for whom you know your career success depends

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Speaker 1: on having at least a couple good hours where you're

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Speaker 1: just focused on creating or thinking deeply about something, then

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Speaker 1: you know, if you can at least create the discipline

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Speaker 1: to hit pause on your inbox. Then I think that

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Speaker 1: you know, that is probably a worthwhile strategy in reducing

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Speaker 1: the stress that email creates.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think inbox pause is such a fantastic tool.

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Speaker 2: And one of my other favorite ones is Freedom. I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure if you've come across Freedom.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that one.

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Speaker 2: It basically just locks you out of any website or

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Speaker 2: software application that you want it designated times during the day,

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Speaker 2: and it's great eliminates the need for willpower essentially for

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Speaker 2: forming good habits. So I think that's a good one.

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Speaker 1: I think I need to try that one. Yeah, that's yeah.

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Speaker 2: On the topic of things that can be quite addictive

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Speaker 2: a smartphones, and you've done some really interesting research here,

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Speaker 2: like last year, I think it was last year, published

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Speaker 2: some research around the impact of parents using their smartphones

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Speaker 2: around their kids, and also other research around the impact

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Speaker 2: of phone use when you're out with friends. And I'm

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Speaker 2: wondering if you can talk about like what you found

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Speaker 2: in terms of the impact that smartphones are having on

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Speaker 2: our ability to connect and again, like how have you

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Speaker 2: applied this in your own life.

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Speaker 1: So I got really curious about how smartphones were affecting

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Speaker 1: social interactions when I noticed, you know, that it looked

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Speaker 1: like our social interactions were often sort of punctuated by

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Speaker 1: people looking down at their screens during wheels or while

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Speaker 1: out with their kids. And so, you know, there's been

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Speaker 1: so much debate around the effects of smartphones, particularly on children,

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Speaker 1: but most of this research has been correlational, so just

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Speaker 1: looking at like how much do people use their phones

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Speaker 1: and how lonely they are or whatever. And I think

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Speaker 1: this gets us almost nowhere, because there's just so many

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Speaker 1: differences between the kinds of people who are using their

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Speaker 1: phones a ton versus you know, barely using phones at all.

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Speaker 1: And so in our work, what we've consistently tried to

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Speaker 1: do the kind of unifying thread, is that we've taken

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Speaker 1: an experimental approach where we try to subtly manipulate how

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Speaker 1: much people are using their phones and then look at

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Speaker 1: what happens. So my favorite study in this whole line

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Speaker 1: of work is what we call the restaurant study. So

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Speaker 1: in this one, we basically took over a table in

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Speaker 1: a local cafe for about eight months, and almost every

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Speaker 1: night we would get a group of friends or family

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Speaker 1: members to come in and have dinner, and we would

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Speaker 1: pick up the tab in exchange for them filling out

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Speaker 1: some surveys at the end of the meal. And the

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Speaker 1: critical thing was they had no idea that the study

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Speaker 1: had anything to do with technology at all. So, for

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Speaker 1: in one condition, we told participants that we needed them

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Speaker 1: to just put their phones away during the meal, but

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Speaker 1: we embedded that instruction amidst a bunch of sort of

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Speaker 1: other little housekeeping details about the study. And then meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: in the other condition, we told people that we needed

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Speaker 1: them to have their phones out and available during the

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Speaker 1: meal so that they could receive a brief survey via

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Speaker 1: text halfway through the meal. Meanwhile, participants in the other

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Speaker 1: groups knew that they would also be re seeing the survey,

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Speaker 1: but they thought it would be brought over to them

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Speaker 1: on paper. So in this way we were able to

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Speaker 1: ensure that half the groups had their phones out and

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Speaker 1: available during the meal, and the other groups all had

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Speaker 1: their phones put away, and then we just let them eat,

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Speaker 1: like order your food, enjoy your meal, whatever. And then

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Speaker 1: at the end of the meal, while we paid the bill,

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Speaker 1: we had participants complete a survey just telling us how

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Speaker 1: much they'd enjoyed the experience and so forth. And what

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Speaker 1: we saw is that people enjoyed this experience of dining

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Speaker 1: out with friends and family significantly less when phones were

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Speaker 1: out and available compared to when phones were put away. Importantly, though,

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Speaker 1: you know, they still enjoyed the meal when phones were out.

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Speaker 1: So sometimes I see these like really like over the

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Speaker 1: top statements even about our own research, like that phones

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Speaker 1: are destroying the world. Like the kinds of effect sizes

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Speaker 1: we're seeing are not like, you know, apocalyptic, So it's

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Speaker 1: not like that all the pleasure of being out with

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Speaker 1: your friends and family goes away, but it is diminished

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Speaker 1: in a way that's you know, pretty easy to detect

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Speaker 1: with statistics that whereby you know, people just aren't getting

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Speaker 1: quite as much pleasure out of being out with their

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Speaker 1: friends and family when everyone's got their phones out compared

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Speaker 1: to when phones are put away.

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Speaker 2: It's fascinating, and I think it is interesting, Like I

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Speaker 2: was looking on how that was reported. I think it

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Speaker 2: was like a half point different or something like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a half a point difference out of

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Speaker 1: some point scale, so it matters, right, It's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we should take this into account. But you know, it's

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Speaker 1: also not like the end of the world if you

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Speaker 1: have to have your phone out, you know, and so

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Speaker 1: the way that I this is one lesson that I

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Speaker 1: think maybe my friends would disagree, But I think I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty good about applying this in everyday life. So I

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Speaker 1: really do try when I'm out with my friends to

438
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,640
Speaker 1: put my phone away at dinner. Like we at home,

439
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,719
Speaker 1: we do have, you know, pretty strict sort of family

440
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: norms about not having phones out, although you know, again

441
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 1: we're not perfect. Like my six year old the other

442
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 1: day told me he wants to save all his money

443
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: so he can buy a phone, and I was like,

444
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,640
Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm obviously winning at parenting.

445
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 2: I love the study design, like I feel like, you know,

446
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 2: most most science studies. I feel like I can say

447
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 2: this having vain a recovering academic, a quite dull business survey.

448
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 2: You're analyzing the data. But I just love what you

449
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 2: did with that experimental design. And I'm wondering, where do

450
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 2: your ideas for I guess these studies and most specifically

451
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 2: how you're measuring, like you know, the different variables you're

452
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 2: interested in. Where did these ideas come from?

453
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean one thing is that I've just discovered

454
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: over time that if I'm curious about something, it usually

455
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: turns out that other people will want to know the

456
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: answer to. So you know, when I first started making

457
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: money as a you know, twenty seven year old who've

458
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 1: been in graduate school up until that point, I wanted

459
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: to know, like, okay, what does science say about how

460
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: I could use that money more effectively in order to

461
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 1: be happier. And I was shocked by how little science

462
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: had to say on this topic back then, and so,

463
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: you know, I just wanted to find out. I was

464
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: just curious, So I started doing these studies and honestly,

465
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: like it kind of came as a surprise to me

466
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: when you know, a New York Times reporter covered this

467
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 1: research and it became the most emailed article in the

468
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 1: paper that week. And that's when it kind of hit

469
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: me with like, oh, okay, Like if I'm curious about something,

470
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: if I'm really super curious about something, other people are

471
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: likely to be too, so I kind of follow my

472
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 1: own curiosity, you know. And with the smartphone research, it

473
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 1: was just such a striking change to live through, right, Like,

474
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: we've really lived through a technological revolution and just gotten

475
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 1: to witness it happening, and there's so much speculation, but

476
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 1: just this like crazy giant vacuum of like good data

477
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: where people were drawing all of these conclusions about what

478
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: phones were doing. But I just didn't see any good

479
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: experiments and so that made me go, Okay, like, how

480
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 1: are we going to figure this out? And to be honest,

481
00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: you know, it's always a collaborative process. So it's always

482
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 1: kind of talking through ideas with my graduate students and

483
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 1: my primary collaborators, and you know, we'll often sort of

484
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 1: keep working through it until we figure it out. And often,

485
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 1: you know, often our first studies on this topic aren't

486
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,120
Speaker 1: the greatest, Like the we when we first started doing

487
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: research on smartphone news, we hadn't figured out a great

488
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: way to keep people from realizing that we were studying phones.

489
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: And that was really frustrating to me because people have

490
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: so many theories about how smartphones are affecting them. So

491
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 1: I thought, okay, we got to figure out some ways

492
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: to keep people from knowing that this is what we're

493
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: up to. And that kind of spurred us to try

494
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: to just think more creatively about that problem.

495
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 2: And so like, how does that work, Like you'll sitting

496
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 2: in a room together notting this out, or do you

497
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 2: go away individually and come back with ideas like what

498
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 2: does that creative process look like?

499
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: So I'm a very social thinker. I have zero single

500
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: authored papers and uh even and you know, my book

501
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 1: Happy Money I wrote with good friend of mine Mike Norton.

502
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: So I don't like to think alone. I know that's

503
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 1: like the kind of idealized vision as like the scholars

504
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,959
Speaker 1: sitting by themselves thinking deeply, and I can do that

505
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: for like two hours. I'm kind of over it. So

506
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: for me, it's not been about just like talking through

507
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: the problem with someone I really like. And you know,

508
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: because I've just been on sabbatical, I was kind of

509
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: thinking about and at this point stage in my career,

510
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: like there's just so many more interesting opportunities than time

511
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 1: available to pursue them. So I was trying to come

512
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 1: up with some rules for myself of like what projects

513
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 1: to take on. And the rules that I've come up

514
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: with are it has to be exciting to me, like

515
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,199
Speaker 1: I have to be curious about it, I have to

516
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 1: want to know the answer. It has to be important

517
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: for the world, like as in I think it would

518
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: be useful for other people to have this knowledge too,

519
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: and maybe there's something we could do with it that

520
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: would be beneficial for the humans. And then finally, like,

521
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: I have to be able to do it with people

522
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 1: I enjoy being around, because for me, that process of

523
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 1: like thinking through these challenges is so much more rewarding

524
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: and motivating. If I can share it with somebody that

525
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 1: is just really fun to be with.

526
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 2: That's so cool. I love those. I love those kind

527
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 2: of rules of principles. How did you land on those?

528
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 2: Was that a hard process or was it quite easy

529
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: when you sat down to consciously think about it.

530
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 1: I've been thinking through these ideas kind of throughout my sabbatical.

531
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: I'm a runner, and often when I'm running or someone's

532
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: mountain biking, like my mind just gravitates to these issues

533
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: of like what is it that's really important to me?

534
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: And so that's kind of something that I've been marinating

535
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: on throughout my sabbatical and that I've just sort of

536
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: landed on in reflecting on, you know, what projects have

537
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: been really satisfying that I'm so glad I did, you know,

538
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: and which projects do I wish i'd like walked away from.

539
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: So you know, I have a real luxury at the

540
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: stage of my career, which is that as a full professor,

541
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: I will never be evaluated in any meaningful way again.

542
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: And so it's I you know, I wouldn't say other

543
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: veeples should necessarily follow this advice because not everyone has that,

544
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: you know, luxury of never being evaluated. But you know,

545
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: I think some of us do right and and or

546
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: at least you can just go screw it, like I'm

547
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: just going to act like I'm never going to be

548
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: evaluating again. And so I think it's important to recognize

549
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: that freedom and go okay, like, so what actually matters

550
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: to me? What are the projects that you know, I'm

551
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: so glad I pursued, and what do they have in

552
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: common and for me? You know, just projects that are

553
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: exciting to me, that matter for other people, and that

554
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: are part of get to be involved working through these

555
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: challenges with other people that I enjoy being around. You know.

556
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: That's that's the winning combo.

557
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 2: I really like that a lot. And I would imagine

558
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: what comes with that is saying no to a lot

559
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 2: of people and a lot of opportunities. And I'm wondering, like,

560
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: what's your approach to say no? Is this something that

561
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 2: you've I guess given thought to. I feel like so

562
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: many people are after the perfect way to say no.

563
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: I have a really hard time saying no, so like,

564
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: just to be fully honest, like, let me tell you

565
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: my most typical way of dealing with this problem. It

566
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: is that I receive a perfectly reasonable request via email,

567
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: say from somebody who wants to be on me to

568
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: be on their podcast. Yeah, and then I ignore it

569
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: right back start it and feel guilty about it, and

570
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: then like eventually it falls down far enough in my

571
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: inbox said I no longer see it and don't deal

572
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: with it. And let me tell you, that is not

573
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: a good strategy for life. I'm a fairy toil, although

574
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: I haven't studied it directly, that is not the rood

575
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: to happiness. So I'm trying to be more proactive now

576
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: about handling this stuff, especially as just like more and

577
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: more cool, interesting opportunities for my way. It just means

578
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: that there's I've decided my default answer to everything now

579
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: has to be no, which is hard for me because

580
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: I am much more inclined to say yes. But I

581
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: have gotten myself in hot water by saying yes to

582
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: too many things. So I've decided that, you know, I

583
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: basically need to say no unless I'm like really excited

584
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: about something, or like I really owe the person, you know,

585
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: and that's fair. And one thing that the biggest thing

586
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: that I've done that's really helpful for me because as

587
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: somebody who has a hard time saying no, is that

588
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: I've started writing standard responses that I spend a lot

589
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: of time crafting because again, I feel so terrible about

590
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: not helping people at every opportunity that I get, especially

591
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: as somebody who does research on helping, that I've taken

592
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: the time to just carefully craft a response explaining like

593
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: why it is that I'm saying no to this whole

594
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,239
Speaker 1: class of requests that I get, for example, And I

595
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: have that now in the drafts at the top of

596
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: the drafts folder of my inbox, so I can just

597
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: copy and paste it into their response. And you know,

598
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: somebody asking me for something where my response just needs

599
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: to be no, and if it's one of those categories,

600
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: I can just copy and paste that like thoughtful, carefully

601
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: written response of no without having to devote thought to it,

602
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: because devoting thought to it makes me feel guilty.

603
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 2: That is such a great idea, having a canned response

604
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,959
Speaker 2: for no that's actually a really well thought out and

605
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: crafted one. I love that. I'm gonna steal that one,

606
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 2: and I guess, like you know, it has really got

607
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 2: a few minutes left. If people listening to this episode

608
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 2: could just make one change to their work life or

609
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: their personal life to boost happiness, what would you recommend

610
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 2: they do? Maybe one tip for work and one tip

611
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 2: for their personal life.

612
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I think one that kind of stretches across both,

613
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: but I guess is most relevant to personal life is

614
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: just a recommendation to buy time. If you're someone who

615
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: feels like you're overwhelmed and really busy, just think of

616
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: one task that you hate doing, something you dread that

617
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: you could pay somebody else for help with, or to

618
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: just completely take off your plate for work life. But

619
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: I guess I would say, you know, we know from

620
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: research on happiness that social relationships are absolutely critical to

621
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: our well being, and so prioritize working with people that

622
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: you really enjoy spending time with. One way that I've

623
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: applied this is I used to admit graduate students largely

624
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: based on their you know, gres and grades, and those

625
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: things still matter, of course I look at them and

626
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 1: take them into account, but now my number one criterion

627
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: is do I want to spend like hours a week

628
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: sitting in a room talking about ideas with this person,

629
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,719
Speaker 1: and the answer has to be yes for me to

630
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: admit them.

631
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: Wow, that's great. Do you know many other professes that

632
00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: would use a criteria like that.

633
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: I think you know a lot of people in my

634
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: field do. Of course, you know, I'm a psychologist, so

635
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 1: we may need more achieve to with these things. But honestly,

636
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: it took me a while to get there, right because

637
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 1: on the flip side, right, like, there's research on the

638
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,760
Speaker 1: interview illusion, where sometimes we interview people and it's hard

639
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: to know whether they'll actually perform well as a function

640
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 1: of how well they do in the interview. So an

641
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: interview isn't necessarily great information about how good they're going

642
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: to be at their jobs, And so there is a

643
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: tension there, right Like, you shouldn't just oh, I like

644
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: that person. I'm sure they'll be great at their jobs.

645
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: But for me, I'm not trying to predict how good

646
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: a graduate student they'll be. You know. That's why I

647
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: do take into accalent, Jerry's and grades and all of

648
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: these other things for nation letters. But those relatively thin

649
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: slices of just spending time with someone else do seem

650
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 1: to provide a pretty good indicator of how we'll feel

651
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 1: about them over the long term, and so, you know,

652
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: for me, it's about just recognizing that the quality of

653
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: time on a day to day basis really matters, and

654
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: that surrounding myself with people who are not just smart,

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00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: but are like fun and interesting and funny makes daily

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Speaker 1: work life so much more enjoyable.

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00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's great. I know that when when

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00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 2: we're recruiting people at Inventing, we often think about the

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00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 2: airport test because we travel so much as consultants, and

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00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 2: so would I be happy to spend four hours in

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00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 2: an airport waiting for a delayed plane? I like that

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00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 2: something similar? Yes, yes. Now finally, Elizabeth, how can people

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00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 2: find you and consume more of what you're doing?

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00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: Well, I am very googleable, so if they just google

665
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 1: my name, that should take them right to my ted talk. Also,

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00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 1: my website has all of my publications. We try to

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00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 1: make as many of them as possible freely available, as

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00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: well as videos and media interviews, stories I've written for

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00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 1: The New York Times. They're all up there, and you're

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00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: also people could also follow me on Twitter. I'm at

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00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 1: done happy.

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00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 2: Lab fantastic, and I will link to all those in

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00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 2: the show notes. Elizabeth, I've loved our chat and I

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00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 2: feel so much happier for it. Say thank you.

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Speaker 1: My pleasure, thanks for having me.

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00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 2: Hello there. That is it for today's show. Thank you

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00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 2: so much for listening. I hope you got some great

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00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 2: practical tips and feeling as happy as I was after

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00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 2: that interview. If you are enjoying how I work, I

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00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 2: would love it if you would take I reckon. It

681
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 2: takes maybe five seconds to leave as star rating or

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00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 2: even write some kind words as a review. I just

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00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 2: love getting feedback from listeners. It totally brightens my day.

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00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 2: So if you have a spare five or ten seconds,

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00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 2: I'd love it if you could do that. So that's

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Speaker 2: all for today and I'll see you next time. I'm