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Speaker 1: If you're a productivity nerd like me, you've probably noticed

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Speaker 1: that a lot of the tools and tips floating around

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Speaker 1: have become a bit well excessive. Setting a Pomodoro timer

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Speaker 1: for a bit of extra motivation is one thing, but

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Speaker 1: do you really need a permanent ice bath or a

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Speaker 1: full scale sauna in order to work more effectively? Susan

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Speaker 1: Carland certainly doesn't think so. Susan is an academic, an author,

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Speaker 1: a TV presenter, and she was also named as one

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Speaker 1: of the Age's twenty most Influential Australian Female voices. And

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Speaker 1: she is a person who has such a brilliant analytical

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Speaker 1: mind and whose opinions I love to listen to. So

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Speaker 1: being such a thoughtful and analytical person, I was keen

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Speaker 1: to know what daily routine had made the biggest difference

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Speaker 1: to Susan's happiness and also what book is Susan currently

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Speaker 1: reading that has fundamentally changed.

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Speaker 2: Her thinking about her health.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor Amantha Imber, an organizational psychologist and the host

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Speaker 1: of How I Work, and I'm trying something a little

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Speaker 1: different for the next few weeks. This is How I Live,

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Speaker 1: a series that gives you an inside look, but some

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Speaker 1: super accomplished people's top strategies for living a happy, productive

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Speaker 1: and impactful life. Now, Susan is not a material kind

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Speaker 1: of person, which made me even more curious to start

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Speaker 1: with asking her what physical possession has had the biggest

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Speaker 1: positive impact in her life over the last couple of years.

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Speaker 2: The first is definitely coffee, hands down. I can't, I

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Speaker 2: cannot actually explain the extent to which it improves my life,

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Speaker 2: and it just felt remissive me not to say coffee.

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Speaker 2: So coffee is the first one. I'm not like eight

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Speaker 2: cups a day, you know, maybe like three, but it's

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Speaker 2: just it's the difference between despair and happiness, I think,

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Speaker 2: and you know, in terms of making your life better,

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Speaker 2: I think there's that. So that'd be the first one.

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Speaker 2: And the second one, again very uninspiring choice, but it

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Speaker 2: genuinely does make my life better, is the use of

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Speaker 2: bluetooth headphones. So the amount now that as I'm going

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Speaker 2: for a walk or doing housework, I can do a

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Speaker 2: phone call or even just listen to a podcast. Do

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Speaker 2: you remember maybe you were always too cool for this,

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Speaker 2: but when iPhones are the main headphones we'd use with

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Speaker 2: iPhones were the ones with the white like the white cord,

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Speaker 2: of course, and I'd always be getting myself caught on

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Speaker 2: like cupboards, and I'd be trying to do things that

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Speaker 2: i'd yank my head back. Just the change to bluetooth,

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Speaker 2: The freedom that it gives me that when I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I really need to call it, I better call my dad,

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Speaker 2: but I can do it while I'm cooking dinner. Just

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Speaker 2: the sense of efficiency You've been able to get two

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Speaker 2: things done at once or in the car. It just

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Speaker 2: makes me feel so much better about things, and I

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Speaker 2: feel I feel less oppressed by my to do list

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Speaker 2: when I can sort of multitask those those things. So

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Speaker 2: those two, as much as I really try to come

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Speaker 2: up with a better answer for this, that's it. That

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Speaker 2: those are the things that I'm like, thank God for

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Speaker 2: these two things.

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Speaker 1: Do you have a strategy for the timing of your coffee? God?

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Speaker 2: No, the timing is my eyes are open, Why is

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Speaker 2: the coffee not in my hand? That's that's the timing.

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Speaker 2: It's not like, oh it's nine oh three, I will.

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Speaker 1: Enjoy my Oh God, no.

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Speaker 2: I probably haven't.

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Speaker 1: The time.

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Speaker 2: It is physiologically the worst that I could be having it.

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Speaker 2: But we can only take so much Amantha and one

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Speaker 2: of them. If I need that kickstart for the day,

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Speaker 2: then that just is what has to happen.

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Speaker 1: Fair enough time saving hack, what is your favorite one?

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Speaker 2: So we kind of have a division of labor in

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Speaker 2: my house where I cooked in a four nights a week.

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Speaker 2: My husband takes care of the three nights a week,

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Speaker 2: and the rule is that we can do whatever we want.

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Speaker 2: So if I want to get pizza for the family

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Speaker 2: for those four nights, and so be it, and my

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Speaker 2: husband and can't complain and vice versa. So it's totally

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Speaker 2: that discretion and normally I will cook and in my

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Speaker 2: four days. And what I found is that the friction

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Speaker 2: I felt about starting the meal so much of it

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Speaker 2: was around the very undifficult task of cutting an onion

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Speaker 2: and crushing garlic. Like I just it was just I

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Speaker 2: realize even saying it, how idiotic that sounds, but something

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Speaker 2: about the peeling of the onion, the cutting, I'd always

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Speaker 2: cry and really cry with onions, peeling the garlic and

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Speaker 2: putting into the masher and half the garlic is still

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Speaker 2: in the thing, and it was just like already upstarted,

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Speaker 2: and I hate it. So what I do now and

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Speaker 2: again this is look, I acknowledge bad for the environment.

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Speaker 2: Judge me, I deserve it. I now buy bags of

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Speaker 2: frozen onion that are cut up, and you know, in

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Speaker 2: my defense, it is only onion. It's not like onion

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Speaker 2: with additives and bread crumbs and emulsifies. Just cut up onion.

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Speaker 2: And I buy a jar of crushed garlic, and it's

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Speaker 2: just garlic in there again, nothing else, just garlic. I know,

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Speaker 2: A lazy to be horrendous for the environment, see privilege. Whatever,

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Speaker 2: I know it all, I get it. You can't make

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Speaker 2: me feel worse than I do. And yet the difference

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Speaker 2: it has made to my life knowing because you think

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Speaker 2: I don't know about you, but for so many of

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Speaker 2: the dishes I start cooking, onion and garlic in oil

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Speaker 2: is always the first step, you know, curries, casse roles, pasta, sauces,

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Speaker 2: it always starts with that. And I hated cutting the

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Speaker 2: onion and garlic. And now just knowing, I just opened

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Speaker 2: the packet of frozen onion that are already cut up,

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Speaker 2: and I just tip it into the pan and just

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Speaker 2: a good generous spoon of garlic. The difference that that

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Speaker 2: has made, you know, one of those instances of a

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Speaker 2: small matter of friction. When you can obliterate that friction,

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Speaker 2: how much easier things become. So that is absolutely it,

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Speaker 2: And I know it's wrong on many levels. I know it,

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Speaker 2: yet I shan't changing. Well.

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Speaker 1: I love it and I can definitely relate. I'm such

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Speaker 1: a fan of using money to either buy myself time,

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Speaker 1: solve a problem, or solve a problem, or reduce the

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Speaker 1: frustrations in my life. I'm wondering if there are other

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Speaker 1: examples of that where you essentially eliminated a frustration through

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Speaker 1: making a different choice.

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Speaker 2: Well, certainly by throwing money at it. Absolutely well, Like

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Speaker 2: we have a guy come and to our garden. Now,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, that's so good. You know, he's he's

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Speaker 2: trimming the hedges when a plant dies. We're like, why

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Speaker 2: did this happen? And can you fix it? And he

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Speaker 2: does instead of us. First of all, we'd never do

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Speaker 2: it to be overgrown. It looks horrendous and it would

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Speaker 2: agitate me. And then and it's the kind of thing

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Speaker 2: then my husband I would get in to do disagreement.

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Speaker 2: Are you I did it last time and you're not?

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Speaker 2: And if we just give this person some money and

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Speaker 2: they handle it, and the garden looks nice. I am

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Speaker 2: also a big fan of throwing money in a problem,

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Speaker 2: and again, of course, yes, privilege, et cetera, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: but it is money that I have and it shall

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Speaker 2: be thrown at the problem. And it really it really

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Speaker 2: if you can outsource things in whatever capacity any of

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Speaker 2: us can, and sometimes it doesn't need to cost money,

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Speaker 2: like if you can use a friend to do some

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Speaker 2: free babysitting for you and then your babysit for them,

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Speaker 2: that kind of thing, it really makes a difference. I'm

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Speaker 2: all for it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I'm also all for like just making different choices

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Speaker 1: with money where it's going to reduce arguments and conflict,

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Speaker 1: Like what you said with the gardening. Yeah, like I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, in terms of what you might pay for

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Speaker 1: the gardening might be the same as getting uber eats

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Speaker 1: one night, which which a lot of people wouldn't think

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Speaker 1: twice about. You know, that is a convenient decision. But

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Speaker 1: when like when I think about, like for certainly a

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Speaker 1: lot of the people that I know how much conflict

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Speaker 1: things like cleaning and gardening course in a relationship, and

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Speaker 1: to think, ah, maybe I could just make a different

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Speaker 1: choice in how I allocate my money.

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Speaker 2: Yes, also so much cheaper than marriage counseling. I think

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Speaker 2: we think about it in that way. It actually makes

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Speaker 2: a lot of sense.

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Speaker 1: You're saving money, really making money. Maybe I think how

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Speaker 1: much more expensive divorce would be.

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Speaker 2: I think the garden's worth it.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm wondering, do you have a daily or weekly

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Speaker 1: ritual that has made a really big positive improvement to

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Speaker 1: your life over the last few years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I do have one, And I recognize that this

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Speaker 2: is one that maybe a lot of people can't relate.

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Speaker 2: But you're interviewing me, so.

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Speaker 1: You get my answers.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I mean, obviously people can't see me,

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Speaker 2: so they might not be able to tell I'm Muslim.

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Speaker 2: I'm a practicing Muslim, and so as a Muslim, I

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Speaker 2: pray five times a day and it's a ritualistic prayer.

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Speaker 2: And the reason I think this has been really good

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Speaker 2: for me in terms of changing my life for the better,

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Speaker 2: I think there's a few reasons. And I say this

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Speaker 2: knowing you know, organized religion is not particularly popular at

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Speaker 2: the moment, so I get that. But from my experience,

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Speaker 2: the first thing is praying five times a day. It's

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Speaker 2: a real discipline, and you know, from anything we do

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Speaker 2: that takes discipline, exis, eyes committing to writing for thirty

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Speaker 2: minutes a day. Whatever. The benefit in having that discipline

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Speaker 2: of doing something even when you don't really particularly feel

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Speaker 2: like it, there's so much benefit in that. So there's

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Speaker 2: a benefit in you know, you know, often I've got

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Speaker 2: to get up early before I want you to do the

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Speaker 2: first prayer, and that's hard, and that's good. It's good

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Speaker 2: to do the hard thing you don't want to do

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Speaker 2: as a form of discipline. So there's that. But I

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Speaker 2: also think, you know, in a time of I suppose

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Speaker 2: main character energy, everything's about the individual and hedonism. It's

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Speaker 2: an important reminder for me of it's very clarifying in

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Speaker 2: terms of my place in the universe and that I'm

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Speaker 2: not the main character of everything. And I think for

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Speaker 2: the final reason, it's very much like checking a map

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Speaker 2: five times a day. I'm looking at my map and saying,

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Speaker 2: am I being the kind of person that I want

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Speaker 2: to be? Am I going in the direction that I

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Speaker 2: want to go? So it's a very important spiritual discipline

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Speaker 2: that I feel like I need in my life. I

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Speaker 2: suppose the same way people will talk about meditating or

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Speaker 2: or just going to the gym. You know that this

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Speaker 2: is their discipline and it has all these knock on effects.

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Speaker 2: This one really is that for me, I'm curious about

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Speaker 2: the fact that it's five times a day, why it's

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Speaker 2: five times a day, and also at what points in

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Speaker 2: the day is that happening.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me more about that.

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Speaker 2: So they're kind of windows of time based on where

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Speaker 2: the sun is, so it's not as in a prayer

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Speaker 2: to the sun, but it's just based on that is

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Speaker 2: how the time is calculated. The first one is before sunrise,

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Speaker 2: so that's why you know in summer we're getting up

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Speaker 2: really early, like it could be like four thirty we're

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Speaker 2: getting up to do it. Then the next one is

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Speaker 2: around midday, the third one is around mid afternoon, the

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Speaker 2: fourth one is at sort of at dusk, and the

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Speaker 2: last one's at night. But they're windows of time, so

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Speaker 2: it's not like right on the dot at twelve oh three,

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Speaker 2: drop everything and pray immediately. There's you know, you've got

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Speaker 2: a couple of hours to do it in so and

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Speaker 2: for that reason, it means because Muslims can pray anywhere

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Speaker 2: that's clean. I've prayed in a lot of funny places

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Speaker 2: in the world, I've prayed in movie theaters, I've prayed

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Speaker 2: at the MCGA, I've prayed in part car parks, the footpath,

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Speaker 2: and again it's about that kind of reconfiguring of ourselves,

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Speaker 2: about going, Okay, no matter what else is going on

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Speaker 2: in my life, what is actually most important, you know,

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Speaker 2: reminding myself. It's very easy to get caught up in

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Speaker 2: the craziness of life and also the craziness of myself

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Speaker 2: and just to bring myself back to focus and purpose

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Speaker 2: and clarity.

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Speaker 1: So what does that period of time look like when

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Speaker 1: you're in prayer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's actually very it's a very physical thing.

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Speaker 2: So it's for Muslims we kind of believe that it's

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Speaker 2: our heart, mind, and body are all at prayer or

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Speaker 2: all in this act of worship, I guess. So if

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Speaker 2: you've ever seen a Muslim pray, you know there's standing,

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Speaker 2: there's bowing and prostrating. There are these formal ritual acts

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Speaker 2: that these motions that we go through that like I said,

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Speaker 2: we feel like our whole selves, every part of ourselves

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Speaker 2: is engaged in this act. It's not just a mental activity.

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Speaker 2: Every part of ourselves is reminding ourselves who we are

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Speaker 2: and where we're.

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Speaker 1: Going and what's going on in your mind in terms

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Speaker 1: of the thoughts that you're thinking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question. And it's so there are

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Speaker 2: ritualistic things that we say, and then there are also

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Speaker 2: extra parts where we can say whatever we want. And

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Speaker 2: it's really interesting, you know, five times a day when

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Speaker 2: we are praying, and the Muslims all over the world,

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Speaker 2: we all pray exactly the same in the same language.

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Speaker 2: We all pray in Arabic, So I could join a prayer,

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Speaker 2: a congregational prayer right now in Nigeria, Turkey, Malaysia, and

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Speaker 2: we're all praying exactly the same way, kind of the

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Speaker 2: way Catholics used to pray, all in Latin, I think.

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Speaker 2: And so we're following this prescription of that we believe,

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Speaker 2: you know, has been practiced this way for hundreds, you know,

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Speaker 2: more than a thousand years that Muslims have always been

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Speaker 2: praying like this. But we're also human beings, and so

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Speaker 2: there will be times when I'm incredibly focused in that

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Speaker 2: prayer and incredibly it's incredibly powerful and moving and emotional

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Speaker 2: and peaceful and transcendent. And then there are other times

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Speaker 2: where I can just film attention going in and out

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Speaker 2: and like I'm praying, but half my mind's and I've

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Speaker 2: got to get back ready for that meeting, and I've

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Speaker 2: got to do this and whatever. That's the human condition,

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Speaker 2: you know. And so again, similar to what I hear

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Speaker 2: people say about meditation, you will have that monkey mind.

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Speaker 2: Your mind is like a puppy, and if you're if

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Speaker 2: you're harsh with that puppy, you wouldn't talle it off

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Speaker 2: and yell at it. You'd be like, Okay, come on, retrain,

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Speaker 2: come back, come back, I acknowledge what's going on. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I'm not focusing. Bring my mind back to what I'm doing.

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Speaker 2: And obviously from MULTONMCE, we believe who we're talking to

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Speaker 2: that is that is absolutely fascinating. How does that work?

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Speaker 1: Though, Like when I mean, you're a super busy person,

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Speaker 1: Like in my mind, how how are you finding the

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Speaker 1: time to do this, particularly for the ones that fall

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the day as opposed to it

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Speaker 1: the tail ends of the day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean the first thing to know, it's

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Speaker 2: not like prayer has to go for two hours, Like

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Speaker 2: if you want to, it could take a couple of minutes.

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Speaker 2: So it's not like a massive imposition But if anything,

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Speaker 2: I think the point you make about being super busy

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Speaker 2: for me makes it even more important. I know for myself,

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Speaker 2: when I'm in those incredibly busy periods of work where

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Speaker 2: everything stressful and too much and like it just feels

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Speaker 2: like a cyclone, it gives me these five moments of

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Speaker 2: stillness and again perspective like, Okay, yeah, works busy and whatever,

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Speaker 2: But I'm a lot more than my job. You know.

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Speaker 2: My identity is not my job. This is what I

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Speaker 2: do when I pray. That's who I am, you know,

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Speaker 2: and that important distinction. But like I said, it does

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Speaker 2: only have to take a couple of minutes. You can

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Speaker 2: pray for longer if you want. But it's not like

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Speaker 2: I have to go. Guys, I'm gonna have to step

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Speaker 2: out for two hours. Good luck at work without me,

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Speaker 2: you know, a Muslim surgeon. Sorry, I'm out of the operation.

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Speaker 2: I hope the patient survives, Like you know, it should

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Speaker 2: work and be manageable in your life as well.

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Speaker 1: We will be back with Susan shortly, where she shares

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Speaker 1: the book she is currently reading that has fundamentally changed

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Speaker 1: her thinking about health. If you're looking for more tips

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Speaker 1: to improve the way you live, I write a short

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Speaker 1: fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things that I've discovered

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Speaker 1: that helped make my life better in some way.

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Speaker 2: You can sign up for.

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Speaker 1: That at how I Work dot co. That's how I

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Speaker 1: work dot co. Now, before we started recording, you brought

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Speaker 1: a book I do, and I assume that you'd brought

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Speaker 1: that in case you were early.

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Speaker 2: That is one sometimes it needs to read.

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Speaker 1: Which I love that.

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Speaker 2: That feels so.

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Speaker 1: Old fashioned in a wonderful way that you've got an actual, hard, coffy,

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Speaker 1: physical book instead of your phone to scroll through. But

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Speaker 1: luckily we both arrived at the same time in the studio.

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Speaker 1: Now I know that this is a book that you're

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Speaker 1: reading at the moment and it's had an impact on you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: tell me about this book and what it's taught you.

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Speaker 2: I love being proven wrong about things. I find it

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Speaker 2: quite exhilarating when I find out something that I thought

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Speaker 2: was actually quite wrong. Yeah, I find it exciting. And

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Speaker 2: so this book, it's not that I had a firm

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Speaker 2: view in the other way, but I guess kind of

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Speaker 2: just a general belief. So it's written by a man

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Speaker 2: called Chris van Tullikan. He's a British guy and British doctor.

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Speaker 2: So he's a medical doctor in tropical medicine and he

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Speaker 2: also has a PhD in infectioussease or something. So I

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Speaker 2: preface this by saying, this guy knows what he's talking about.

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Speaker 2: He's not a celebrity chef. Giving health advice is just

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Speaker 2: what I want to say. And he's also a science communicator,

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Speaker 2: so he does podcasts and stuff for the BBC. So

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Speaker 2: he's a great writer, just extremely accessible. So he's got

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Speaker 2: this book out it's just come out recently called Ultra

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Speaker 2: Processed People. And this book has changed so much of

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Speaker 2: what I thought because my attitude was always like, of

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Speaker 2: course fresh is best. You know, we all want to

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Speaker 2: eat lots of fresh vegetables and whatever, But isn't a

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Speaker 2: mulsifier the end of the world. Turns out yes, that

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Speaker 2: it is. But the reason this book is so great

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Speaker 2: is it is a very calm, measured walkthrough. He says

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Speaker 2: right from the start, I'm not trying to change anyone's

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Speaker 2: I'm not asking you to change anything. You eat the

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Speaker 2: way you want. I'm just going to give you the

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Speaker 2: information and then you can keep deciding how you eat.

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Speaker 2: But I think you should have this information about what

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Speaker 2: we actually know about the impact of ultraprocessed food on

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Speaker 2: us in terms of our health. And he said, look,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of impact, a lot of discussion on

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Speaker 2: the way this can impact weight. He said, yeah, look

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Speaker 2: that's relevant, but there is so much more to it

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Speaker 2: than this. The stuff we know about what ultraprocessed food

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Speaker 2: does to our microbiome, for example, which then of course

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Speaker 2: the knock on effects for mental health, all these other things,

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Speaker 2: the environmental impact. It is absolutely catastrophic, seems worse than sugar.

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Speaker 2: Everything it is, and it's so rigorously research. So it's

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Speaker 2: not just him saying this is what I reckon. It's like,

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Speaker 2: here's a meta study, here's another meta study. Here's research

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Speaker 2: we've been doing since the fifties until now, and they

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Speaker 2: all say the same thing. And when you read it,

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Speaker 2: it is very difficult. Well for me, it was very

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Speaker 2: difficult to not know it anymore. And I look basically

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Speaker 2: the way he defines an ultra process food because he says,

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Speaker 2: humans have always been processing food, making cheese, that's processing food,

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Speaker 2: making bread. So that's not the problem. It's the ultra processing,

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Speaker 2: putting all these strange chemicals into foods and really changing

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Speaker 2: the natures does something to the way our bodies react

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Speaker 2: to the food that we don't even fully understand yet.

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Speaker 2: Even just like just pureting an apple compared to if

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Speaker 2: we eat the same apple, our bodies react to it

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Speaker 2: completely differently and they don't really know why. They don't

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Speaker 2: really understand why. So it's things like, you know, you

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Speaker 2: want to make a homemade passa sauce. That's fine, But

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Speaker 2: an ultra processed food is if it contains any ingredient

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Speaker 2: that you would not find in your home kitchen. So

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Speaker 2: when you start seeing gua gum, I don't know about you,

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Speaker 2: that's not in my kitchen cupboard, that's a problem. I

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Speaker 2: really recommend this book. It's great.

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Speaker 1: How has it changed your behavior?

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Speaker 2: I'm now looking at everything in our pantry. It's actually

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Speaker 2: not as bad as I would have thought. But to

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Speaker 2: be fair, all the food's my teenagers, well, sixteen and

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Speaker 2: twenty year old. They love them, like, oh dear, this

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Speaker 2: is not good. So it's made me just a lot

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Speaker 2: more conscious of that, and like I said, not, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: the weight side whatever, that's that's one thing. But I'm

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Speaker 2: just so much more interested in the overall health. The

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Speaker 2: long term health impacts and the impact it has on

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Speaker 2: our mental health that we don't talk about enough that

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Speaker 2: we know anxiety, depression or on the rise. And of

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Speaker 2: course there's a whole host of reasons for that. I'm

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Speaker 2: not trying to say it's all the and neither is he.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot going on, but it is so remiss

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Speaker 2: of us to ignore the very clear evidence we have

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Speaker 2: about the link between ultra process food and depression and anxiety,

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Speaker 2: and we are not addressing it. All we're doing is

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Speaker 2: creating more ultra process things to address. So, for example,

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Speaker 2: it says companies will create ultra process foods which make

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Speaker 2: us incredibly unwell and cause real problems in the gut,

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Speaker 2: for example, and then they will make probritics to address

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Speaker 2: the problem they created. So you cannot ultra process your

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Speaker 2: way out of this problem. I'm not, you know, being

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Speaker 2: all hippy, like you know, food is the medicine and

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Speaker 2: that's all we need to live and survive. No, of course,

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Speaker 2: you know, I did a science degree. I believe in

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Speaker 2: science and medicine, but I also think this is science

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Speaker 2: and medicine as well.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. Like, I'm so excited that you

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Speaker 1: brought this up and I'm going to have to buy

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Speaker 1: this book. So I think I'd mentioned to you a

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Speaker 1: little while ago that my current book that I'm working

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Speaker 1: on out next year is all about health.

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Speaker 2: And and I totally forgot, of course, because we had

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Speaker 2: a gym. That's right, exactly exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And certainly there's a section that I was writing

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Speaker 1: about in terms of ultra process food. And I think

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Speaker 1: it's interesting that, firstly, I'm in there's there's some great

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Speaker 1: research that I've read recently that that shows if your

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Speaker 1: diet is like certainly, you know, if there's a high

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Speaker 1: percentage of food that's coming from upfs, it's a significant

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Speaker 1: predictor of dying early. So like, let alone how we're

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Speaker 1: feeling right now, Yeah, you will probably die earlier if

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Speaker 1: a large part of your diet comes from upfs. And

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Speaker 1: also there's such a huge crossover with what are called

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Speaker 1: hyper palatable yes, because there's things are constructed in you know,

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Speaker 1: like a place that is not one's kitchen. They can

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Speaker 1: get the exact right ratio of fats and sugars and

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Speaker 1: soda mouthfeel, yes, exactly, to make it very very addictive,

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Speaker 1: which therefore, obviously you know, contributes to the obesity problem

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Speaker 1: that we're in. So I'm definitely going to have to

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Speaker 1: read a sad book. Now, what is something unusual that

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Speaker 1: you do to feel happier?

431
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,680
Speaker 2: Well, one thing I've started doing really recently, but it's

432
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,199
Speaker 2: made a big impact is I interviewed this guy for

433
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,719
Speaker 2: this podcast I host, and one of the topics we

434
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,359
Speaker 2: were talking about is the role of play and fun

435
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 2: for adults. And we spoke to this guy. I just realized,

436
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 2: I've forgotten his name. I should have looked it up

437
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 2: before I came on the podcast. Maybe you can edit

438
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,120
Speaker 2: that in this great guy in America that he made

439
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 2: a point that you know when something just clicks in

440
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:58,879
Speaker 2: your mind, and he said, we need to think about

441
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,120
Speaker 2: the role of play and fun and creativity for adults

442
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 2: the same way we used to talk about sleep in

443
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 2: the nineties and early two thousands. Remember when suddenly in

444
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 2: the nineties and two thousands, everyone's like, oh, we actually

445
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,200
Speaker 2: think sleep's really important. And now we will all be like, oh, hustle, hustle,

446
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 2: ussle for our sleep at night. And now we realize

447
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,679
Speaker 2: sleep is so important for a million reasons. You know,

448
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,920
Speaker 2: the way we feel, mental health, longevity, all of those things,

449
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,159
Speaker 2: it's vitally important to our wellbeing, and we've got to

450
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:29,919
Speaker 2: stop this stupid attitude about little sleep is better. We

451
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 2: have to start thinking about fun the same way and

452
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 2: creativity and play. And he said, we are fun starved,

453
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 2: we are play deprived, and we need to think about

454
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,360
Speaker 2: it the same way we think about sleep and think

455
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 2: of it it's role in our lives, the same way

456
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 2: we think about sleep in terms of being nourishing and

457
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,400
Speaker 2: regenerative and crucially important. And that just really changed something

458
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 2: in my mind. I'm like, yes, we do need to

459
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 2: And then I'm like, but now I'm boring and I'm creating.

460
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,120
Speaker 2: What do I do? And he said, one thing, we're

461
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,439
Speaker 2: just start thinking like a kid. So one thing he

462
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 2: said is he was at the airport not long ago,

463
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 2: and he he didn't want to look at his phone,

464
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 2: so it's like, what's something creative I could do now?

465
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,439
Speaker 2: So he decided to play a game he made up

466
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 2: called would I Wear that T? Shirt? Which is fun

467
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 2: and like, maybe it sounds judgmental, it wasn't meant that much.

468
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 2: It's just like, uh, I would not wear that looks

469
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 2: good on you, but absolutely not. Just something fun and

470
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,239
Speaker 2: a bit sparky in your brain, and you know other

471
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 2: people do other versions, like what do I think the

472
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 2: job is that that person does and what's the relationship

473
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,159
Speaker 2: between those two people. So I've been trying to do that. So,

474
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 2: for example, I went on a walk the other day

475
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 2: and I'm like, right, I'm not taking my phone because

476
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 2: normally I'll listen to a podcast. I'm just going to

477
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 2: try to think and what's something creative I could do?

478
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 2: And so I thought, okay, I'm going to try to

479
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 2: come up with places where would I rather be walking

480
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 2: right now? Like if I could be walking anywhere right now,

481
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 2: where would I want to be walking? And trying to

482
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,439
Speaker 2: just come up with the most outlandish things. Or I

483
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 2: was in the shower the other day and our shower

484
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 2: maybe it's too much information. Our shower faces straight up

485
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 2: looking at the toilet. I was looking at the toilet.

486
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 2: I'm like, what could be or more creative additions we

487
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: could make to the toilet? And they cannot already exist.

488
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 2: So you know, there's that great Japanese toilet that warms

489
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 2: your bosham that's already done. What else could we do?

490
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 2: And I'm like, what if we had a toilet that

491
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 2: could automatically do like a urinine stool sample for you know,

492
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 2: and you have to go to the doctor and they

493
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 2: need a urine sample for whatever. What if it took

494
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 2: it and said, okay, you're a bit low in I

495
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 2: I think you've got commedia, for example, So there could

496
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 2: be that. What if the toilet gave you statistical information

497
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: yesterday you went to the toilet eight times around the

498
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 2: world right now nine million other people around the toilet,

499
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: you know, or you're sitting there and the toilet just

500
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 2: starts give you a little back massage. Like none of

501
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 2: these are particularly great, but it's about trying to get

502
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 2: your mind into that creative space, just to remind ourselves

503
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 2: what it's like. And that particularly if we're either always

504
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 2: staring at our phone or listening to things on their phone.

505
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 2: I'm really about it, Like I love listening to podcasts

506
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 2: all the time. That's doing the work for our brain.

507
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 2: But if we get our brain to start doing something

508
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 2: it's just slightly cognitively demanding. It's not algebra, but it's

509
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 2: a little bit cognitively demanding. It's so much more rewarding.

510
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 2: We come out feeling sparkier, and so that's what I'm

511
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 2: trying to do at the moment, Like, I'm just trying

512
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 2: to prioritize fun. So we had like ten people over

513
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 2: for dinner last night. One of my friends is a magician,

514
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: so we just made him start doing magic tricks. Magicians

515
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 2: are awesome, so just stuff like that. I'm trying to

516
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,439
Speaker 2: prioritize it in the same way that I would sleep.

517
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: Now I'm wondering, do you have a fail safe way

518
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 1: to get yourself in the zone when you need to perform,

519
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 1: particularly when you're not feeling like it. Yes.

520
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 2: First of all, coffee is always a good start, even

521
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 2: if I've already had a fear. It just feels like

522
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 2: a treat, Like yes, now we're putting petrol in the car.

523
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 2: If necessary, I might put on like some lyric free

524
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 2: but boppy music can't have lyrics because I find that

525
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 2: too distracting. So that'll help pump me up. But the

526
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 2: main thing I try to tell myself or remind myself

527
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 2: is let me say this without swearing. I think motivation

528
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 2: is rubbish, so I've got to remind myself of that

529
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 2: when I'm like, I don't feel like doing this and

530
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 2: it's due today, Like, get over it, OK, so you're

531
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 2: not motivated. Forget motivation. I kind of think of motivation

532
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 2: as like, if you're on a boat, motivation is the

533
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 2: wind that comes, which is great if you've got the motivation,

534
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 2: But if there's no wind, you need to put your

535
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 2: oars in the water and start paddling. If you're always

536
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 2: waiting for motivation, you're just stuck in the middle of

537
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 2: the ocean. Forget motivation. It's rubbish. So I just tell

538
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 2: myself it doesn't matter if you want to or not.

539
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 2: Just start doing the work. Sometimes motivation will come and

540
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 2: that's great. And if motivation doesn't come, well, tough luck.

541
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:35,719
Speaker 2: Sometimes you have to do what you don't want to do.

542
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 2: So I really try to engage with that part of

543
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 2: my mind that might be like, oh I don't really

544
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: feel like it. Okay, tough luck, too bad. This is

545
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 2: what has to be done and we're going.

546
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 1: To do it. Have you always been like that or

547
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: is that a skill that you learned.

548
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 2: It's definitely something I've learned. Yeah, I think something as

549
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 2: I've learned, just as I've got older, or to be fair,

550
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 2: I think it was something I had to be exposed to.

551
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 2: Like I think growing up, i'd never really entertained the

552
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 2: idea like it just seems natural. Well I don't really

553
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 2: feel like it, so I guess what can I do?

554
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 2: This is just car I just don't want to go

555
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 2: to the gym or do this study. And just realizing

556
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 2: you can actually just see motivation as irrelevant it's very

557
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: freeing because so long as I felt tired to needing

558
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 2: to feel motivated it is. It's like the wind, It

559
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 2: comes and goes, and then what do you do when

560
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 2: it's not there? So just telling myself that doesn't matter

561
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 2: has helped a huge amount, but it's only relatively recently,

562
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 2: and it was because just hearing other people say and

563
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, that's true. Why did I always assume

564
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 2: it was a necessary ingredient to doing something when it's

565
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 2: actually not.

566
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 1: Now, if I gifted you a plaque and it could

567
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: say anything you want, something you'd like to be reminded of,

568
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: like constantly, what would you want that plaque to say?

569
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 2: I think it kind of connects to some of the

570
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 2: stuff we've been talking about already, And what I would

571
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 2: want my plaque to say would be what will future

572
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 2: Susan be glad you did? And because for me that

573
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 2: cuts through everything for the most and I don't want

574
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 2: to clean the kitchen, but I know I'll be glad

575
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 2: that I have cleaned the kitchen or read a few

576
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 2: more pages of my book right to the really big,

577
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: the big things of life, the existential things, the work things,

578
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 2: the family things. And normally what I find is the

579
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 2: thing that I want to do that feels easy and

580
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 2: good right now is not the thing that future Susan

581
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: will be glad that I did. So current Susan is

582
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 2: trying to do future Susan a lot of favors. So

583
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 2: I always try to think and once you have that

584
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 2: longer term picture, whether it's tomorrow Susan or fifty years

585
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: down the track Susan, it suddenly makes things much clear

586
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 2: about what the right choice is.

587
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: What a great thing to be reminded of, Susan. For

588
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: people that want to connect with you, what is the

589
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: best way to do that.

590
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 2: Good question? I am on Instagram. I'm not particularly active,

591
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 2: but you are welcome to find me there at Susan Carland.

592
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 2: That's probably the best way, or I do. I host

593
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 2: a podcast for Monash University called what Happens Next. You

594
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 2: can listen to that.

595
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: I love this with Susan, and I particularly loved what

596
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: she wanted on her plaque. What will future Susan be

597
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: glad you did? I mean, it's such a great question

598
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: because it really cuts through a lot of the mess

599
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: and crap that can make decisions in the moment feel

600
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: really hard and emotional. It recently came to my mind

601
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: with a tough decision I had to make at work,

602
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: and using this question definitely helped to bring a lot

603
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: of clarity to what I was thinking about at the time.

604
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing part of your day

605
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: with me by listening to How I Live. If you're

606
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: keen for more tips on how to work better and

607
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: live better, connect with me on LinkedIn or Instagram to

608
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: search for Amantha Imba. How I Live was recorded on

609
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: the traditional land of the Orangery People, part of the

610
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: Cool and Nation. I'm so grateful for being able to

611
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: work and live on this beautiful land, and I want

612
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: to pay my respects to Elder's past, present and emerging.

613
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: How I Live is produced by Inventium with production support

614
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: from Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was

615
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: Liam Ardan and sound engineering was done by Martin Imba