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Speaker 1: We know last week the government announced an independent inquiry

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Speaker 1: into recent senior police recruitments. That inquiry is going to

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Speaker 1: be facilitated through the Office of the Commissioner for Public

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Speaker 1: Employment and led by the Honorable Acting Justice Alan blow Ao.

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Speaker 1: Now joining me in the studio is the Chief Minister

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Speaker 1: of the Northern Territory, Lea Fanocchiaro. Good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Katie, in to your listeners.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for your time this morning. Now, Chief Minister,

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Speaker 1: why is this review required in your eyes?

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Speaker 3: So, what happened overse in the fallout of the KA

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Speaker 3: co Operation Apollo report and obviously Police Commissioner Murphy identifying

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Speaker 3: himself at that time. In Commissioner Murphy's comments, he sort

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Speaker 3: of talked about executive recruitment and then we had the

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Speaker 3: Northern Territory Police Association come out and cast a cloud

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Speaker 3: over the validity of all of those promotions from superintendent

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Speaker 3: up and so it's very very important. I mean it's

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Speaker 3: no secret law and order is the number one priority

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Speaker 3: of most people, Katie is certainly is of our government

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Speaker 3: and we can't have a strong police force if there's

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Speaker 3: doubt over the leadership. So in an important step to

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Speaker 3: create confidence and give certainty not just to the rank

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Speaker 3: and file, but also to the people in those positions.

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Speaker 3: We've initiated this independent inquiry with Justice Blow. He's a

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Speaker 3: former Chief Justice of the Tasmanian Supreme Court and received

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Speaker 3: his Order of Australia for you know, professional standards, so

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Speaker 3: he's very well equipped. This inquiry will be done with

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Speaker 3: the support of Public Public Employment Commissioner, which is appropriate

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Speaker 3: and basically it is it is designed to explore how

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Speaker 3: their requitments were done, whether they were done validly, whether

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Speaker 3: they were done in accordance with the protocols and codes

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Speaker 3: of ethics, and whether they were merit based.

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Speaker 4: What if they're not.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's a matter for Justice Blow.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he's got to undertake this inquiry and you know,

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Speaker 3: provide the steps going. We've also made the terms of

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Speaker 3: reference broad enough that if he believes there's other issues

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Speaker 3: or something else comes up, then he can report.

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Speaker 2: I've committed to tabling.

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Speaker 3: That report in Parliament, so it will be a very

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Speaker 3: open process and we've just got to let it run

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Speaker 3: its course.

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Speaker 1: Now I know I'm asking you to delve into what

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Speaker 1: if I mean, the fact is here obviously, will he

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Speaker 1: will provide that information, but then what happens next is

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Speaker 1: going to fall upon you as the Police Minister and

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Speaker 1: as the Chief Minister.

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Speaker 4: Are you concerned that.

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Speaker 1: There could be people in positions that shouldn't be or

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Speaker 1: is this more a matter of trying to clear the

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Speaker 1: air well.

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Speaker 3: I mean, at the end of the day, we've had

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Speaker 3: serious concerns raised by the NTPA that they certainly seem

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Speaker 3: to believe that this needed to be done and there

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Speaker 3: could be problems.

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Speaker 2: It's not my job to second guess or have a

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Speaker 2: crack at it. You know.

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Speaker 3: Certainly, everyone I've worked with has been incredibly professional and

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Speaker 3: hard working and this is taking a toll on them

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Speaker 3: as much as the rank and file. So the best

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Speaker 3: thing I can do is draw it all tore closed

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Speaker 3: one way or the other. And that's why Justice Blower

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Speaker 3: is going to undertake this important work and it'll be

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Speaker 3: what it'll be.

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Speaker 1: Where are things that with the termination process for Michael Murphy, yep.

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Speaker 3: So that process is continuing, Katie, And if and when

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Speaker 3: I've got more to say, I certainly.

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Speaker 1: I mean he's lawyered up the Northern Territory News reporting

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Speaker 1: that he's secured the services of a top Australian lawyer

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Speaker 1: Morris Blackburn principal lawyer Josh Bornstein. Are you concerned that

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Speaker 1: it may not be as clear cut as originally thought?

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Speaker 3: Oh, look, he's perfectly entitled to have legal representation and

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Speaker 3: as I've always said with the community, this is a process.

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Speaker 3: He has certain entitlements. We talked about the six months

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Speaker 3: payment and all of those types of things. So there's

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Speaker 3: you know, it is a process. It might not be

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Speaker 3: a pretty one, Katie, but there's a process there, and

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Speaker 3: we've just got to stay the course.

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Speaker 1: I mean, many have been drawing comparisons between the Murphy

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Speaker 1: situation and the Gwynn situation.

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Speaker 4: Should I know you and.

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Speaker 1: I have discussed this to some degree previously. She got

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Speaker 1: prosecuted and Murphy got well an anonymized report. Is that consistent?

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Speaker 3: So, and I can see how people are drawing comparisons,

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Speaker 3: and I'm not saying up that they're not, but I

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Speaker 3: guess the processes were different. So one was in an

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Speaker 3: ICAC investigation, the other ended up being a police investigation.

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Speaker 3: One ended up in the courts, and obviously one has

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Speaker 3: ended up in an icc process.

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Speaker 1: But clearly one probably shouldn't have actually ended up a

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Speaker 1: police investigation.

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Speaker 3: Well, and this has obviously been the subject of much

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Speaker 3: discussion over many many years, Katie, while all of it

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Speaker 3: was obviously unfolding, and now it's sort of thrown it

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Speaker 3: back into the spotlight, and so you know, these issues

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Speaker 3: continued to go on. But ultimately I'm doing everything I

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Speaker 3: can to give confidence and certainty to our police because

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Speaker 3: I need them focused on their everyday job and that's

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Speaker 3: keeping people safe.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just on that situation though, with Colin gwyn

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Speaker 1: the former Children's Commissioner, should there be an should I

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Speaker 1: CACK look into that?

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Speaker 3: And they can absolutely the ICIC. You know, there's no

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Speaker 3: requirement for me to say I CAC should do something

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Speaker 3: that can they can undertake it?

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Speaker 2: Should well, I mean, look I could.

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Speaker 3: Does it make any difference? Probably not. Have they already

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Speaker 3: looked at it?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. So these are all questions.

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Speaker 4: The difference in terms of confidence.

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Speaker 1: From the Northern Territory public that you know that there's

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Speaker 1: not which once a get.

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Speaker 3: Seople and I haven't ruled out and in inquiry into that,

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Speaker 3: so I haven't ruled that out. Clearly, We've got a

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Speaker 3: few other things on the boil at the moment Katie, So,

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Speaker 3: you know, one step at a time. I haven't ruled

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Speaker 3: that out, but I just want to give confidence to

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Speaker 3: the community that if someone had something to say or

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Speaker 3: concern about that those processes are there and over the

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Speaker 3: last four years, the k could have looked at it.

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister, do you plan to table the i CAAC

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Speaker 1: report into the Michael Murphy situation in Parliament this week?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that is certainly my intention. I'm waiting to hear

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Speaker 3: back from the ICACK about whether I can, so I'm

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Speaker 3: certainly hoping to have that feedback today because Parliament starts tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: If that takes a bit longer, then you know, that's

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Speaker 3: out of my hands.

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Speaker 2: But it's certainly my intention.

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Speaker 1: What would prevent the ICAC from allowing that?

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Speaker 4: Do you think?

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Speaker 3: It's around the way they collect evidence and the fact

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Speaker 3: that they can compel people. I force people to, you know,

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Speaker 3: disclose information that a court or another process wouldn't allow

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Speaker 3: them to do. So, it's just about making sure that

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Speaker 3: what is being made public is information that's available to

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Speaker 3: be made public. And that's not my call. That is

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Speaker 3: one hundred percent the i caack's call. So you know,

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Speaker 3: my hands are still tied to some extent, it is

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Speaker 3: my intention. I've written to the ey CACK about that,

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Speaker 3: and now I just have to wait to see what

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Speaker 3: they come back with. Why do you reckon it should

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Speaker 3: be tabled? Well, it's in the public interest. I mean,

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Speaker 3: people are very bamboo, including myself, about the entire process.

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Speaker 3: I have to say, you know, why do a report

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Speaker 3: and then put out a public statement if it's meant

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Speaker 3: to be confidential? And I just think the IK can't

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Speaker 3: have their cake and eat it too on this. Ye

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Speaker 3: if they felt like the information was so confidential, then

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Speaker 3: why did they put out the statement? Because of course

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Speaker 3: it asked the inevitable question of who, what, when, where?

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Speaker 1: Why?

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Speaker 3: So I think they've got to be more responsible. If

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Speaker 3: they felt that it was fine to put out the statement,

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Speaker 3: then why is it not fine to put out the report?

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Speaker 3: So I guess it's just it's just confusing. I feel

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Speaker 3: like you can't have it both ways.

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Speaker 1: Well, I do think it's important that people have an

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Speaker 1: understanding of the context potentially around that report as well,

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Speaker 1: you know, But and also I mean even for Michael Murphy, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think surely he deserves that bit of context. It

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Speaker 1: may find that it actually I don't I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't actually know what it's gonna say.

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Speaker 4: Have you seen it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yep, I've seen it. So and I'm obviously still

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Speaker 3: bound to all of their provisions. So it's just it's really.

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Speaker 2: Messy, Katie. Again, we've flagged in IICQ.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's certainly work that needs to be done

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Speaker 3: in that i CAG space.

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Speaker 2: And this is one hell of a mess.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, from the outside looking in, it

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Speaker 1: seems like, yes, it is a bit of a mess.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you've got a situation where you think there

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Speaker 1: needs to be some.

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Speaker 4: Further review into the ICAK.

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Speaker 1: You obviously think there needs to be a review, and

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Speaker 1: you've got this underway now into the police executive and

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Speaker 1: the hiring that's happened since twenty twenty three. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you've just said you're not ruling out an inquiry then

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Speaker 1: into the Colleen Win situation. It's a lot and rightly so,

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people in the public will

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Speaker 1: be going, yeah, fair call. We need to make sure

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Speaker 1: that everything is happening the way that we expect it

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Speaker 1: to happen. But what impact do you think all of

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Speaker 1: this is having on the Northern Territory police force right

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Speaker 1: now when they are indeed, you know, they are indeed

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Speaker 1: the agency that is large carrying out a lot of

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Speaker 1: the government's agenda when it comes to the issues of crime.

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Speaker 3: And that's my greatest concern in all of this, Katie.

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Speaker 3: You know, things have to be done properly and delicately.

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Speaker 3: I've been methodically working through this. I'm extremely conscious of

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Speaker 3: the impact this is having on the frontline, because the

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Speaker 3: last thing anyone wants to see is low morale.

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Speaker 2: Again. I mean, Katie, we can be really proud.

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Speaker 3: In six months, we've increased police powers, We've got the

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Speaker 3: lowest attrition rate since twenty nineteen. Already just six months

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Speaker 3: in morale is starting to increase. They police are feeling

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Speaker 3: heard and supported. We've got great new laws coming through

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Speaker 3: that they're the frontline are working with us on. And

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Speaker 3: so this is really awful for this to happen. It

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Speaker 3: is an awful thing, and I just have been encouraging

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Speaker 3: them and trying my very best to say this is

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Speaker 3: about certainty and clarity going forward, and you know, what

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Speaker 3: needs to be done will be done, but we've got

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Speaker 3: to make sure we're supporting the frontline to be out

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Speaker 3: there catching bad guys as I always Katie, because that's

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Speaker 3: what people want. And with five hundred more people in

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Speaker 3: prison since the August election, that's what they've been doing.

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Speaker 3: And they're doing a great job. And I just thank

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Speaker 3: them so much for caring so much about community safety.

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Speaker 3: You know, they leave their family every day to go

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Speaker 3: and protect ours, and you know it's an incredible sacrifice

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Speaker 3: they make.

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister just very quickly back on the review that's

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Speaker 1: been conducted by Acting Justice Alan Blow. Is it going

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Speaker 1: to be made public?

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Speaker 3: Yes, so Old Tamelin in Parliament and then then that

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Speaker 3: will be public here.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's move along and talk about the Territory Coordinator

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Speaker 1: Bill and also the work that the government is going

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Speaker 1: to be announcing today when it comes to the economic

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Speaker 1: strategy for this year. First off with the Territory Coordinator Bill.

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Speaker 1: The Northern Territory's four Land councils have united to call

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Speaker 1: for the Territory Coordinator Bill to be dumped. They say

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Speaker 1: that the bill excludes Aboriginal people from involvement in its

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Speaker 1: development decisions on their traditional lands and prevents them from

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Speaker 1: protecting their land and culture. Are you excluding Aboriginal people?

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Speaker 1: As saying their pressure.

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Speaker 3: Release No, I don't know where this comes from, Katie.

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Speaker 3: I think sometimes it's activism for activism's sake. This has

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Speaker 3: been so broadly consulted, I mean dating back to October.

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Speaker 3: I mean we literally won the election at the end

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Speaker 3: of August, and by October we were out fully consulting

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Speaker 3: with the public. So it's been through that process. We've

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Speaker 3: had five hundred submissions. I even sent it to the

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Speaker 3: Legislative Scrutiny Committee to have a bipartisan look at Katie.

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Speaker 3: So this has done the hard yards of being tested

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Speaker 3: and pushed and examined, and tomorrow in Parliament it will

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Speaker 3: further be examined and I look forward to that robust

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Speaker 3: debate that we'll undoubtedly have. But no, it doesn't, Katie.

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Speaker 3: We've been very clear about the protections it has for

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Speaker 3: Aboriginal land and traditional owners, and anyone who says otherwise

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Speaker 3: is just causing trouble.

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Speaker 4: So is it going to pass this week?

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Speaker 2: I certainly hope. So that's the intention. Yeah, we'll be

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Speaker 2: bringing it on tomorrow. I'm expecting a very very long night.

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Speaker 3: I know the opposition and independent members have a range

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Speaker 3: of questions and I'm very open to that. I'm ready

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Speaker 3: for a midnight or if it has to be, Katie.

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Speaker 2: So that's fine.

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Speaker 3: I want us to be able to go through the

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Speaker 3: bill and ultimately it'll be put to the Parliament and

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Speaker 3: I certainly hope it's law by the end of the week.

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Speaker 1: Now I know tomorrow you're also set to unveil the

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Speaker 1: government's economic strategy for this year. How are you going

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Speaker 1: to get things moving in the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 3: We know that crime is the number one issue, but

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Speaker 3: also to support crime, we have to rebuild the economy.

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Speaker 3: So there are two big focuses. Because we don't want

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Speaker 3: people leaving the territory.

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Speaker 2: We want people to come.

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Speaker 3: So we've got to have that lifestyle piece which is

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Speaker 3: intrinsically linked with crime, which means we need a strong

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Speaker 3: economy to have jobs, opportunity and money to pay for

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Speaker 3: all the things that we need, all of the services.

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Speaker 3: So tomorrow I'll be launching our rebuilding the Economy's strategy,

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Speaker 3: which is very exciting. It will support the public service

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Speaker 3: to make sure they're staying true to that strategy and

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Speaker 3: also for the private sector to understand how they can

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Speaker 3: get involve and where our mind is at. But basically

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Speaker 3: it's about getting back to basics, playing to our key strengths.

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Speaker 3: I'll outline our KPIs like what does success look like?

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Speaker 3: And that's something quite a few people have been asking

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Speaker 3: over the last six months, what does economic success look like?

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Speaker 2: So I won't say that now, but I will announce

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Speaker 2: it tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: So it's exciting and it's basically about making sure everything

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Speaker 3: we do is put through a prism that's going to

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Speaker 3: yield the biggest bang for bark for territories. And I

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Speaker 3: have to say you mentioned the gst win for that

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Speaker 3: was certainly welcome because boy, oh boy, do we have

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Speaker 3: a lot of Decadie.

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Speaker 2: It's no end insight on that we do.

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Speaker 1: And look, a large part of the discussion I think

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Speaker 1: about getting the territory moving has indeed focused on the

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Speaker 1: fact that we do need to get a handle on crime.

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Speaker 1: I'm just one of our listeners has just made me

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Speaker 1: aware of an article running on the ABC over the weekend,

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Speaker 1: and it is in relation to some comments made by

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Speaker 1: a judge urging a radical rethink of the Northern territories

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Speaker 1: growing crime and prison problem. To this report in the ABC,

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Speaker 1: in the Northern Territory, of course, where imprisonment rates surpass

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Speaker 1: even those of the United States. One judge is calling

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Speaker 1: for a radical rethink. Presiding over the worst categories of

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Speaker 1: offending in the Northern Territory, Supreme Court Judge Jenny Blocklin

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Speaker 1: has been afforded a well She's been afforded a unique

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Speaker 1: view of how justice is served, and her estimates were sobering.

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Speaker 1: She has told a lecture at Charles Darwin University that

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Speaker 1: imprisonment and the significant use of it in Australia and

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory is a wicked problem for.

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Speaker 4: Many of us.

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Speaker 1: She's continued by saying, instead of being a deterrent, she said,

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Speaker 1: it appeared to drive repeat offending. What do you make

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Speaker 1: of those comments?

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Speaker 3: Look, I think it's fine to, you know, sit back

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Speaker 3: and make those comments. But at the end of the day,

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Speaker 3: we've just come out of a decade of a labor

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Speaker 3: government who's waded down the laws, failed to build new

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Speaker 3: prison infrastructure, left criminals on the street to perpetrate violence

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Speaker 3: on others, overseeing eighty two percent increase in DV. So

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Speaker 3: I would argue the exact opposite. We tried the let's

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Speaker 3: cuddle everyone to make them good people approach, and you

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Speaker 3: know what, it didn't work. That's why I'm the Chief Minister, Katie.

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Speaker 3: So you know, people can commentate and talk. At the

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Speaker 3: end of the day, prison isn't a great place. It

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Speaker 3: doesn't deliver great outcomes. But you know what, if you

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Speaker 3: commit a crime, that's where you're going to live. And

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Speaker 3: we make no apologies for that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously the justice, you know, justice system needs

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Speaker 1: to be quite there, needs to be that real separation

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Speaker 1: of powers. But are you concerned that you have got

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Speaker 1: judges presiding over cases where they don't feel as though

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Speaker 1: prison is the best option when it is against a

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Speaker 1: lot of members of the community's expectations.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We we do have a system where people, you know,

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Speaker 3: largely the community feel to some extent the judiciary is

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Speaker 3: at a stepwi community expectation. And that's fine, and that's

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Speaker 3: happened for forever. My job and as law makers we're

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Speaker 3: the ones who set those parameters. So that's why we

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Speaker 3: you know, we've got laws this way about giving police

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Speaker 3: better powers to enter premises where we've got some DV

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Speaker 3: stuff coming up, all sorts of things happening. So our

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Speaker 3: job is to make sure the courts have the right framework.

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Speaker 3: Their job is to interpret the law deliver the outcome.

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Speaker 3: But I have to say, Katie, you know, at the

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Speaker 3: end of the day, if you don't do the wrong thing,

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Speaker 3: you've got nothing to worry about. And we're in a

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Speaker 3: sort of crisis situation with corrections at the moment where

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Speaker 3: we are not able to put as much energy into

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Speaker 3: rehabilitation as we like right now. But we've brought online

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Speaker 3: five hundred more beds since August last year, five hundred.

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Speaker 2: It's enormous.

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Speaker 3: We have taken those that backlog of prisoners out of

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Speaker 3: Palmerstan and Catherine and Alice Springs watchhouses. Police are now

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Speaker 3: solely running watchhouses.

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Speaker 4: Again.

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Speaker 2: These are huge achievements.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we haven't ever seen a prospect of this

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Speaker 3: under labor and even for us, you know, I was

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Speaker 3: I mean, that was my sole objective, or a big

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Speaker 3: part of my objective, was to get prisoners out of watchhouses.

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Speaker 3: And to think we've done it in six months is unbelievable.

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Speaker 3: And of course police keep filling it back up, and

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Speaker 3: that's what we want them to do. So it's a

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Speaker 3: bit of a never ending circle. But you know, we're

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Speaker 3: getting their Katie, and then once we can start delivering

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Speaker 3: that important rehab and getting people working while they're in prison.

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Speaker 3: We'll start to see better outcomes.

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister, a really quick listener question. Can you please

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Speaker 1: ask the CLP person why it is that the prices

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Speaker 1: for alcohol haven't gone back to the floor price implemented

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Speaker 1: by labor twice the price of the same isham in

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Speaker 1: South Australia, Queensland and Wy That one from Emin Darwin.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I wonder if that's cask wine or so.

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Speaker 3: We had the Hospitality and Tea come out a few

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Speaker 3: months ago saying that because the alcohol taxes had increase

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Speaker 3: so much, there probably isn't actually a reduction in price

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Speaker 3: anymore on most products. But I did think that cask

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Speaker 3: wine was one that didn't get impacted by that. So

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Speaker 3: you know, we can encourage retailers to drop their price

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Speaker 3: back down, but at the end of the day, they

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Speaker 3: have to do it. And that was part of the

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Speaker 3: failure of the system is government wasn't collecting that additional revenue.

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Speaker 3: It was the bottle shops. So they're probably hooked on

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Speaker 3: it at m and don't want to pay it for it.

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Speaker 3: But we're certainly keen to see if there's savings to.

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Speaker 2: Be made, they should be passed.

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Speaker 4: On, Chief Minister, we will leave it there.

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Speaker 1: I know you do need to get away and head

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Speaker 1: to the state funeral that is being held to one

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Speaker 1: of the life and legacy of former Northern Territory Parliamentarian,

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Speaker 1: the Honorable Grant tambling Am today. So look, I really

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Speaker 1: appreciate your time, Thank you for joining us in the studio.

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Speaker 2: Thanks everyone, take care you too.