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Speaker 1: Job Mission with Jones and Amanda.

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Speaker 2: Our next guest is a man whose trademark style is

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Speaker 2: all about being hilarious but thought provoking, a little wild,

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Speaker 2: which is everything.

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Speaker 3: His new book, puff Piece is.

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Speaker 2: Puff Piece is a probing look, a probing look into

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Speaker 2: the tobacco and vaping industry.

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Speaker 3: John Saffran, Hello, gooday, how are you great to talk

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Speaker 3: to you? Were well, nice to talk to you.

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Speaker 2: That the smoking industry is fascinating, isn't it at the

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Speaker 2: moment because to what I thought was that Western culture

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Speaker 2: has pretty much given up a lot of the smokes.

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Speaker 2: So then the tobacco industry turned to Asia that's now

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Speaker 2: giving up the smoke. So they're turning to kids. Is

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Speaker 2: that pretty much what's happening?

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Speaker 4: Oh well, I didn't have any evidence that they were

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Speaker 4: like directly going to kids, but it gets a bit

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Speaker 4: wooy there. They've an't even trickier than that because Philip Morris,

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Speaker 4: who are the Melbo people, They've come up with this

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Speaker 4: new product and it's not a vape and they claim

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Speaker 4: it's not a cigarette, but it's sure as heck looks

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Speaker 4: like a cigarette because it's tobacco ruled in paper with

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Speaker 4: a filter. At one end that you plant between your

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Speaker 4: lips inhaling nicotine and tobacco into your lungs, and you

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Speaker 4: hold it up to anyone and they just go, that

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Speaker 4: looks like a cigarette, and they're just saying, no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 4: it's not a cigarette. And they call it a new word.

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Speaker 4: They call it a heat stick.

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Speaker 3: A heat stick, a stick.

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Speaker 4: And it's been like remarkably successful because there's places in

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Speaker 4: the world, like in Europe where they've banned mental cigarettes,

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Speaker 4: and they've just come they've gone, okay, we'll stop producing

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Speaker 4: mental cigarettes. And then they've just come on the market

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Speaker 4: with these things are sure as heck look exactly the

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Speaker 4: same as cigarettes, but they call them heat sticks and

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Speaker 4: that's how they get around the legislation.

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Speaker 1: And do they burn like a cigarette, Well, that's what

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Speaker 1: their Their little claim is that could you insert it

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Speaker 1: into this machine or this little device and it only

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Speaker 1: heats it up to an incredible degree without actually letting

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Speaker 1: it catch a light.

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Speaker 4: They say that the discharge that emits from it, that

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Speaker 4: sure as heck looks a lot like smoke. They claim,

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Speaker 4: technically speaking, it's not actually smoke, it's aerosol. So therefore

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Speaker 4: you you're not inhaling smoke, and therefore they sort of

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Speaker 4: imply that it's a safer alternative. And it's so confusing

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Speaker 4: because this is this isn't vaping, so like, yeah, they're

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Speaker 4: really good at sort of like just I'm confused, and

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Speaker 4: I wrote the whole book on it, so I can't

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Speaker 4: imagine someone who didn't write a book on it trying

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Speaker 4: to follow all this insanity.

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Speaker 5: When you talk about vaping, John Philip Master, they have

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Speaker 5: their hand in vaping because I would imagine that vaping

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Speaker 5: is a lot more healthier than smoking a cigarette.

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Speaker 4: Well kind of yes and no. So this is like

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Speaker 4: the tangle. So cigarettes have tobacco leaf in it, so

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Speaker 4: there and that produces tar, and tr is like the

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Speaker 4: deadly thing in a cigarette. Whilst vapes they don't contain

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Speaker 4: tobacco leaf, so therefore they don't produce tar, and therefore,

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Speaker 4: like vapors can say that the most deadly thing in

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Speaker 4: a cigarette isn't in a vate because you're like vapings

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Speaker 4: like heating up a steam. But then the problem is

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Speaker 4: that you still are inhaling things into your lungs and

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Speaker 4: into your bloodstream even though it's not tar. So then

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Speaker 4: it becomes just a bit confusing about that. Yeah, on

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Speaker 4: the one hand, it doesn't have the most deadly thing

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Speaker 4: that's a cigarette, But on the other hand, you're still

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Speaker 4: inhaling propoline, glycole and flavorings and nicotine into your system.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, and getting conditions like popcorn lung that I

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Speaker 2: keep reading about. So it is seen as an alternative

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Speaker 2: to smoking, but there'd be a whole lot of kids

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Speaker 2: who wouldn't take up smoking but will take up vaping,

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Speaker 2: So it's a false equivalence there too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the two things about vaping and appealing

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Speaker 4: to kids is one is that like a company like Jewel,

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Speaker 4: who's like a big vape company, they say, oh, listen,

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Speaker 4: the models we've got in our ads are twenty five

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Speaker 4: years old. Look look at their birth certificate and twenty

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Speaker 4: five year old people would are attracted to these kind

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Speaker 4: of advertising, And that's true, But how do you kind

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Speaker 4: of like silo that off and sort of make it

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Speaker 4: also not appealing to young people? So I think even

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Speaker 4: if they're not like directly advertising, and it's kind of

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Speaker 4: like hard to kind of prove or maybe impossible to

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Speaker 4: prove that they are trying to directly appeal to kids,

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Speaker 4: it's like, how do you sort of court and off

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Speaker 4: the advertising, because they're kind of advertising and it will

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Speaker 4: appear appeal to a twenty five year old, might also

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Speaker 4: appeal to a young person, And when it comes to vaping,

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Speaker 4: they use a lot of imagery, like computer game imagery

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Speaker 4: and the sort of stuff again that might might appeal

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Speaker 4: to like a twenty five year old or a thirty

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Speaker 4: year old. You know, twenty five and thirty year olds

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Speaker 4: like playing computer games or whatever. But then again, how

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Speaker 4: do you kind of cord it it off?

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Speaker 5: So it's Philip Mars's real thing just marketing, is that

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Speaker 5: what they're really good at. Could get anything, any product here,

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Speaker 5: and when you look at it, here's a product that

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Speaker 5: they marketed for years and years and years that's killing

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Speaker 5: thousands of people, but people are still buy it. So

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Speaker 5: maybe it's also addictive. Well, why don't they market something

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Speaker 5: that's healthy, Well, they'd.

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Speaker 4: Say they they say, this is how good at marketing

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Speaker 4: they are. Is they're claiming they're shutting down as a

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Speaker 4: cigarette company and relaunching as a health enterprise to try

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Speaker 4: to get the one billion smokers of the world, including

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Speaker 4: their own customers, off cigarettes. But then like the trick

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Speaker 4: is by that they're saying they're moving them on to heatsticks,

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Speaker 4: which we kind of talked about before, which kind of

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Speaker 4: looks exactly like a cigarette to me.

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Speaker 5: Right, So it looks like a cigarette and smells like

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Speaker 5: a cigarette, but it's not a cigarette thing to see here,

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Speaker 5: Philip Morris, Well, John, it's always great to talk to you.

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Speaker 5: The new book is out. It's called puff Piece. It's

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Speaker 5: available at all good bookstores today.

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Speaker 3: Fascinating stuff, John, John Zafran, thank you, no, thank.

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Speaker 4: You very much. I appreciate it. Jonesy Amanda's generation