1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Paul McIntyre, Editor at large at MI three. 2 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to the MI three Audio Edition. I've been a 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: business journalist for well be On's covering the marketing, media, 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: agency and tech sectors, and in this series we try 5 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: to get under the hood on broader trends and developments 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: that are shifting and shaping industry. Some of them are 7 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: not always planned for the spotlight. 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 2: Well. 9 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: About six months ago, we covered a rapidly emerging trend 10 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: bending development in retail and it was that a striking 11 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: reversal was underway with gen Z, who were surging back 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: to physical retail stores and experiences over e comm while 13 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: baby boomers on the flip were hurtling into e commerce. 14 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: The data was compiled from spending among one point five 15 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: billion shoppers worldwide by Salesforce and matched with its quarterly 16 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: consumer sentiment tracking. And here's the kicker. Seventy five percent 17 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,319 Speaker 1: of gen Z said they prefer physical retail and we're 18 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 1: chasing instore experiences over online transactions. It highlights a grand 19 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: challenge and conundrum in a new report on owned media, 20 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: the first time we've seen a value put on the 21 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: global sector's commercial potential at Wait for it five hundred 22 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: and seventy three billion. It's hardly poultry, given the global 23 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: ad marketers set to crack one trillion in a year 24 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: or so. Sonda's global owned media valuation includes brand owned 25 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: retail and brand owned commerce networks. Will define the difference shortly, 26 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: but one of the key findings in the report calls 27 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: out a real challenge. Brands which are by retail media 28 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: networks are all but ignoring physical stores in favor of 29 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: retailer digital media assets. A global survey of marketers Sonda 30 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: undertook with the CMO Council shows digital accounts for the 31 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: biggest budgets and activity, even though e commerce still sits 32 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: at just twenty percent of total retail sales. Websites, email, 33 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: and social media are the top channels in which brands 34 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: use retail media networks to communicate with customers. But that's 35 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: wonky and wayward, argue my panels today. In other words, 36 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: mind the massive retail digital gap. It's probably crimping growth. 37 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: There's also a big takedown in this report on the 38 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: primary way in which brands tend to value their own 39 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: media assets, the top down method of gross merchandise value 40 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: or GMV, which has reached taboc on retail media teams 41 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: and is one of the greatest plagues afflicting retail media 42 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: network owners, say my guests today, there's plenty in this report. 43 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: Telcos and financial services are largely laggered compared to other 44 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: sectors in commercializing their own media assets. That's one and 45 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: combat is perhaps an exception. CMO Joe Bowndy was on 46 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,679 Speaker 1: another MI three podcast last week with News Australia detailing 47 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: why the bank's own content, for instance, is her new 48 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: silver bullet that can slice through the entire marketing funnel 49 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: versus the middle where content is often boxed. So on 50 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: the MIC's joining the report authors. 51 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 2: So on. 52 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: The co founders, Jonathan Hopkins and Fraser is Andrew Lipsman, 53 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: a former e marketer, analyst and founding advisor and strategist 54 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: at Coliseum, a retail and commerce media advisory firm founded 55 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: by the former president of Best By Ads Media and 56 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: CRM Keith Bryan in the US. Andrew's loaded with insider 57 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 1: knowledge on what's happening in the US market or not 58 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: as it may emerge. 59 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:21,959 Speaker 2: So welcome. Gent's good to have you on the MIC. 60 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 2: So let's start this off, angus. 61 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 1: I just really want to start before we kick off 62 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: into the bigger conversation on this report. I'm keen to 63 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: know whether the brand controlled retail and commerce media networks 64 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: in this market in Australia at least a feeling the 65 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: tightening ad market as much as publishers are. Are they 66 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: getting squeezed on rates and field levels as much as 67 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: publishers and traditional media companies at present? Or what's the 68 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: story and what's your read on it? Angus and welcome aboard. 69 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:50,839 Speaker 1: Good good to have you on, Thanks Paul. 70 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 3: Yes, it's good to be here today. 71 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 4: Look, I mean, I don't think retail media networks are 72 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 4: immune to demand pressure, but I think rmns have a 73 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 4: really good story to tell in the context of tightening 74 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 4: budgets and you know, when perhaps there's more emphasis on 75 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 4: efficacy and performance. 76 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 3: That campaigns can deliver. 77 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 4: I also think it perhaps depends a little bit on 78 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 4: the maturity of the individual business. So you know, what 79 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 4: we've been hearing about is some of the more established 80 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 4: players in the RMN space, you know, they might be 81 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,679 Speaker 4: feeling it a bit more because they've ridden that initial 82 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 4: wave of growth over the last five years and they've 83 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 4: done extremely well. But now there are fewer easy wins 84 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 4: and growth is probably going to be a little bit 85 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 4: more harder thought, and that within the context of a 86 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 4: harder media market overall. 87 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so if we think about the ad market 88 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 1: in Australia in the last couple of quarters, off double digits, 89 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: ten twelve to fourteen percent in some cases in some sects, 90 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:55,119 Speaker 1: most sectors, you've got more competition in retail media networks angus. 91 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 1: Does it mean the demand has been spread and is 92 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: there an impact? Is demand increasing overall for the sector? 93 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: I think it is, But rates are just really keen 94 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: to see whether if they are holding rights, how they're 95 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: doing that. 96 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 4: Look, I mean, I think everyone has to negotiate ultimately 97 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 4: to a point. So you know, rates as a lever, 98 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 4: and rate can be discounted and utilized no matter what 99 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 4: the business, whether you're a retail media network or a 100 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 4: traditional publisher. So we haven't seen any any kind of 101 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 4: intel or data around rate negotiations happening specifically within retail media. 102 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 4: But you know, it's a lever like any other lever 103 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 4: within the within the media sales space. 104 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: Got it, Well, Well, listen, we'll get to the juice 105 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: of this report because it actually does paint an interesting 106 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: picture of what's coming or what could could be coming 107 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: to Jonathan and Angus, you guys have SOND have gone 108 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: where sort of no one has deard before really and 109 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: value the commercial potential of the own media sector globally. 110 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 2: It's just a small ambition to do. 111 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 1: Well done, but take us on this, on this big 112 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: report for twenty twenty six on the global play, Take 113 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: us on a fast train fast track through the key 114 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 1: findings and why marketing I guess and brand, e commerce 115 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: and even merchandising teams should give a hoot about what's 116 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: in here because it's some pretty interesting stuff. 117 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 2: Angusty top line. 118 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 4: So yeah, look the top line is Jonathan and I 119 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 4: sat down last year and we looked at the report 120 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 4: that we were planning to do, and we realized that 121 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 4: no one had actually ever done a full global review 122 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 4: or evaluation around the size of the commercial potential of 123 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 4: owned media. So we felt like it was really incumbent 124 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 4: on us because SONDER values media and over twenty two 125 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,679 Speaker 4: different countries, and we have this enormous data pool sitting 126 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 4: there of twelve billion dollars with over two and a 127 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 4: half thousand different owned media CPMs. So we felt like 128 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 4: we wanted to really give it a crack, and it's 129 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 4: not easy. The reason it hasn't been done before is 130 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 4: because it's really difficult. And so what we did was 131 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 4: to arrive at the numbers. We used our data and 132 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 4: applied typical owned media commercial potentials per business to the 133 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 4: number of large and mid tier companies in each industry 134 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 4: sector in each country. 135 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 3: So it was a huge task. And globally, you know, 136 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 3: what we. 137 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 4: Were looking at is every country that essentially has a 138 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 4: developed advertising market. 139 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 3: And you know, we found out a lot of things. 140 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 4: You know, one of the interesting things was that less 141 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 4: than thirty percent of the global commercial potential of owned 142 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 4: media is actually being leveraged. 143 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 3: And that's you know, predominantly the. 144 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 4: Market is being driven by retail media networks and that's 145 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 4: you know, mainly in the pure played digital retail, the 146 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 4: omni channel. 147 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: Quickly, we break that down, Angus, if you're talking about 148 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: a five hundred and seventy three billion dollar valuation for 149 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: owned media overall, you've split it between retail and commerce. 150 00:07:57,560 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 2: Retail is what retail media is one of that. 151 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, so retail represents four hundred and fifty three billion 152 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 4: and commerce represents one hundred and twenty one. So retail 153 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 4: media represents about. 154 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 3: A four times that of commerce media. 155 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: Right, and you're saying just thirty percent of retail media 156 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: networks are tapping their potential thought potential, Yeah. 157 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 3: It's a lot more potentially, yes, right. 158 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good segue, Jonathan into this retail versus 159 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: commerce media definition. What is the difference? Where do we 160 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: go with this? What's retail? What's commerce? And why? 161 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 5: I Paul good to be back on the mic. 162 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 6: So the difference is owned media leveraged by retailers is 163 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 6: called retail media networks. Owned media leverage by non retail 164 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 6: non retailers like finance, telcos and travel is called commerce 165 00:08:54,640 --> 00:09:00,080 Speaker 6: media networks. So whilst retail media networks rmns have the 166 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 6: line's share of the revenue, commerce media networks have massive, 167 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 6: massive potential. So CMMs represent twenty percent of the total 168 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 6: market but are only delivering four percent of the revenues. 169 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 6: So one of the big sectors in there I mentioned 170 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 6: is telcos, so for example, they have the biggest unrealized 171 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 6: media network opportunity. If you look at the key markets 172 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 6: for retail and commerce media, US, UK and Australia, telcos 173 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 6: are currently minor players in the commerce media landscape, but 174 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 6: have this potential to rival even the leading retail media 175 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 6: networks if they fully commercialize. That's because of the omnichannel 176 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 6: nature of their business. You know, they do have a 177 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 6: retail footprint typically as well as fast digital footprints which 178 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 6: have high frequency amongst customers in terms of apps, websites, emails. 179 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 6: Websites have been quite slightly to adopt the opportunity. Reasons 180 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 6: for that partly due to lack of awareness of the 181 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 6: size of the prize, not understanding the true value of 182 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 6: their media network, but also culturally, so often these commerce 183 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 6: businesses do not have the legacy leverage models within the 184 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 6: business like retailers do with merchandise departments where those established 185 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 6: relationships with brand partners exist. So that's a big kind 186 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 6: of barrier to taking it. But I think they're starting 187 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 6: to emerge and see the opportunity. 188 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 3: And we'll get to that. 189 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: We might cover a little bit more later on, because 190 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: I think there are some markets where telcos are doing 191 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: some good stuff that you guys have identified. 192 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 2: We might get to that. 193 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: What about this bigger or another big sort of observation 194 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 1: in your report, Jonathan around physical retail being undercooked. We 195 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: talked about it at the top versus digital touch points. 196 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: There's a big skew there to digital, even though retails, 197 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: you know, the majority driver of transactions. 198 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 2: Talk us through that. 199 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's definitely one of the big findings. 200 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 6: Less so in Australia, in the UK, where marketers tend 201 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 6: to lead an omnichannel view of leveraging their own media, 202 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 6: and in the commerce and retail media Area's omnichannels quite 203 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 6: present in those countries. But in the US it really 204 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 6: stands out. Globally, physical media represents twenty one percent of 205 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:34,439 Speaker 6: global owned media opportunity, yet it only drives less than 206 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 6: one percent of US AD revenues, which is where we've 207 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,719 Speaker 6: got the metrics. So there's a big discrepancy between whatich 208 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 6: actually happening in terms of where the revenue is flowing 209 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 6: and where the opportunity is. 210 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: Well, we're going to get we'll unpack that with Andrew 211 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 1: a bit later too, because it'll be interesting on his thoughts. 212 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 2: Sorry you were saying, Jonathan. 213 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,199 Speaker 6: Yeah, website display, which is the channel everyone focuses on, 214 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 6: represents only twenty nine percent of the total commercial potential 215 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 6: of owned media, and the. 216 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 5: Report also shows. 217 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 6: In store, email or the biggest drivers for omnichannel retailers, 218 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 6: whereas for grocery and liquor in store again the main 219 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 6: driver and publishing so catalogs and magazine and some promotions, 220 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 6: whereas the fuel and convenience category that had the biggest 221 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 6: overall skew to instore. So you can see that across 222 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 6: different categories, in stores is really the next horizon of growth, 223 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 6: and we saw that with you know, the NRF Global 224 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 6: Retail Conference in New York. One of the main themes 225 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 6: coming out of there was that. 226 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: Sorry that NRF just for the just for the audience, Jonathan, 227 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: n r F is what what is it? National retail 228 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: is something? 229 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 6: I guess it's the National Retail Federation, isn't it. 230 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 2: Andrew Okay, is there annual summad or something? 231 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 5: Yeah? The Globe's the Global Retail Conference. It's the. 232 00:12:58,120 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 2: How of that. 233 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 6: Yeah. The big theme that was coming out was that 234 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 6: physical retail media is the next big thing. Whereas in 235 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 6: Australia install has always been part of the offer, but 236 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 6: in US retail media is predominantly a digital offering, so 237 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 6: we see that as set to change. 238 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: You also, you know, you did an interesting global study 239 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: with the CMO Council of Marketers on this whole area 240 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: just give us. We'll go into detail a little bit further, 241 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 1: but top line on some of those key findings, Jonathan, 242 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: the from what marketers are are saying and doing with 243 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: retail were owned the media. 244 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 6: Yeah, the biggest shift that that survey showed is growth 245 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 6: in partner brand monetizations. So the majority of cmos nearly 246 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 6: sixty percent providing value to partners still at no cost, 247 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 6: and in the future that they would like to reduce 248 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 6: that to thirty eight percent doing so in two years 249 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 6: from there. 250 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: So I just think to define that. 251 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: So when you say doing business with partners at no cost, 252 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 1: this is retailer is doing it at no cost. 253 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 5: With this is any any category. 254 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 6: So the whole all sectors, sixty percent of giving their 255 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 6: own media value away without charging. 256 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 5: So that's another growth horizon. 257 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 6: The other one was only thirty seven percent currently monetizing 258 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 6: their own media with partner brands, but ninety two percent 259 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 6: expect to be doing so in two years from that. 260 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 2: Well that's a big leap, isn't it. That's massive. 261 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 6: Yeah, these signals really show that there's growth on the horizon. 262 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: Well, Angus one of the other things in the report 263 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: was this whole notion of top down or bottom up 264 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: valuation of owned media and general merchandise value. The report's 265 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: pretty scathing of what's been happening and how most companies 266 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: are evaluating their own media sort of almost you know, 267 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: carnage sort of stuff. 268 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 2: There's a big problem there. 269 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: It took us through what's going on, and these valuation 270 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: methods angus, Yeah. 271 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 4: Look, what we've seen over the years is that some 272 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 4: bususinesses are trying to establish I guess, the size of 273 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 4: the prize and an understanding of where they should be 274 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 4: sitting their sales targets based around these top line metrics 275 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 4: like gross merchandise value and then applying a multiple to 276 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 4: that based on what other businesses earn in relation to 277 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 4: their GMV. Now, the problem with that, though, is that 278 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 4: GMV has really little relationship to media channels, and at 279 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 4: a stretch you might argue that GMV is related to 280 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 4: sales and therefore audience, but it's not a measure of 281 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 4: audience and it has no bearing on media value in 282 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 4: the channels within the ecosystem. And then businesses basically are 283 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 4: applying a generic multiple from another business to their GMV 284 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 4: figure to estimate a top down media value, which we 285 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 4: feel is inherently reckless. Our view is that the only 286 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 4: way to really understand the value of media is to 287 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 4: take a company level, bottom up approach, and this involves 288 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 4: auditing every single media format across all channels, digital and physical. 289 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 4: It includes the obvious ones like website banners, tiles, emails 290 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 4: in store and all that kind of thing, but it 291 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 4: can also include infrastructure, transport, direct mail, sales teams, the 292 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 4: data that the business has, So there's a lot more 293 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 4: to it. 294 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: And so those that those that have so just quickly 295 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: angus those that are doing bottom up. 296 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: What's better? What's different about it? What happens is different. 297 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 4: Well, what's different is that you get an accurate read 298 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 4: on the potential. So the danger in taking a top 299 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 4: down approach is that you can set yourself up for failure. 300 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 3: So you know, when you're if. 301 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 4: You're at the early stages of creating an RMN or 302 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 4: a CMN, you know you need reliable intel to inform 303 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 4: your decision making before you go ahead and invest millions 304 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 4: of dollars in creating an offering that might actually just 305 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 4: be a mirage. And you know, and I think this 306 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 4: is something that that Andrew has seen too. You know 307 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 4: for established retail media networks who you know have perhaps 308 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 4: you know, underachieved and not hit their sales targets because 309 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 4: they are working off these top down valuations, and these 310 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 4: top down valuations have set these you know, impossible targets 311 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 4: to actually hit. So you're in that environment and that's 312 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 4: you know, it's it's. 313 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 1: Just caused pressure on every pause, pressure on the whole 314 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: team on the basis of inflated numbers. 315 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 4: Well, everyone's disappointed, right, Everyone in the organization is going 316 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 4: to be disappointed in that from the very top right down. 317 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 3: So it's it's a recipe for the disaster. 318 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: So listen, Andrew Litzmann, you've your your your neck deep 319 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: in the US on all the stuff we'll just be 320 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: talking about. Let's start with retail, meetia networks and physical 321 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 1: store was eighty percent of the transaction economy is in 322 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: stall as we talked about the top, but to most 323 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: in industry, physical retail is a giant was giant wasteland 324 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 1: of nothingness almost. Why so great to have you on 325 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: the MIC's Andrew. I'm really key to hear your perspective 326 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: and what the hell's going on in the US. 327 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 7: Yeah, well, it's great to be here. 328 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 8: I don't know if i'd characterize it as a as 329 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 8: a wasteland, but there does seem to be a significant 330 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 8: misconception here that e commerce is way bigger than it 331 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 8: actually is. I had conversations. I've been a big proponent 332 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,479 Speaker 8: of in store retail media for a while now, and 333 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 8: I've been taking that on the speaking circuit, and a 334 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 8: lot of times I'll get this question, why would you 335 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 8: want to do that? What's the point when physical retail 336 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 8: is going away? And I realized that people actually think 337 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 8: that the majority of retail at this point is e commerce. 338 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 7: I actually asked you. 339 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,959 Speaker 8: Globally thereabouts, Yeah, depending on the denominator you use, it's 340 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 8: sixteen to twenty percent in the US. So I asked 341 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 8: my wife recently, because she hears, you know, me talking 342 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 8: about work all the time, and she's been living and 343 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,959 Speaker 8: breathing through osmosis e commerce for years and years, I said, what, 344 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 8: just out of curiosity, what percentage of retail do you 345 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 8: think E commerces? And even she said, I don't know, 346 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 8: maybe forty or fifty percent. So we wildly underestimate the 347 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 8: importance of physical retail. You know, part of the negativity 348 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 8: around it is there's a lot of middling retailers that 349 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,120 Speaker 8: weren't providing a good customer experience and they're washing out, 350 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 8: they are in decline. But you also have a contrast 351 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 8: with really good retail experiences that really meet the right 352 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 8: customer value proposition. And the reality is people do want 353 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 8: to shop for goods physically. There are a whole lot 354 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 8: of motivators beyond just pure efficiency, which is obviously one 355 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 8: of the primary motors MOTIVATD. 356 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 2: I don't know whether you're saying this in the US. 357 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: I'm sure you are, Andrew, but certainly here, even some 358 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 1: of our online pure play e comm startups that have 359 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 1: been around, you know, between three and six, seven, eight 360 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: years now, they're all moving into building out their own 361 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: retail stores. They're more profitable, they say, there's more margin, 362 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: it helps with the customer experience and entrenches them. 363 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 2: They go on to do online. 364 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 1: But there is this entire blind spot across most of 365 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: industry about retail and the impact, and even pure plays 366 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: are now jumping in on the bandwagon. Do what do 367 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 1: people say when you tell people about how undercooked retailers 368 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: versus how undercooked e commerce is what do they say 369 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: they are they surprised? Do they do they wake up 370 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: to the fact that, you know, physical retail is still 371 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: massive versus e comm what's there right now? 372 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 8: Well, when I talk to the retailers, understand that physical 373 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 8: retail is massive, and many of them are physical retail first. 374 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 8: The problem has been getting the media business, the advertising 375 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 8: business off the ground because there are a lot of 376 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 8: things that have to happen first, and you have to 377 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 8: work your way through the hornet nest of US retail bureaucracies. 378 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 8: You know, what I've heard from a lot of non 379 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 8: US markets, Europe, in Australia is that there's just not 380 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 8: the same level of bureaucracy to be able to introduce 381 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 8: physical screens in the store and begin monetizing through advertising. 382 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 8: It's been a really slow moving process here in the US. 383 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 8: The good news is we're actually finally at that inflection 384 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 8: point where some of the biggest retailers are now making 385 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 8: a big push. So some of the biggest well we 386 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 8: have CVS, which is one of the biggest drug stores 387 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 8: in the country, start to make a big push last 388 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 8: year and then this year Crowger and Albertson's two of 389 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,199 Speaker 8: the largest national supermarket chains are rolling out screens in 390 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 8: a big way, and that means it's probably only a 391 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 8: matter of time before Walmart also gets into the fray 392 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 8: and then once. 393 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 7: That happens, the whole market gets set set off. 394 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 8: So we're like just on the cusp of everything happening 395 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 8: here in the US. 396 00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 2: But it's what do you think that does to the numbers? 397 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 2: So it will be a swing. 398 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: There'll be a swing of inventory or money by advertising 399 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: money going back into retail over the next two years 400 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 1: in the US physical retail stores. 401 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 2: Do you think, Andrew, do you have you got a 402 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 2: quantum on that? 403 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, you know, the forecast because the market's 404 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 8: so small, the forecasts aren't huge. Yet I'm actually very optimistic. 405 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 8: I think once the market finally hits that critical mass 406 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 8: that it'll start to move really quickly. I've said that 407 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 8: I think it's about a twenty billion dollar market or 408 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 8: more over the next five to ten years, probably more 409 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 8: like ten years. But it's a significant opportunity. And the 410 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 8: big question then is where did those dollars come from? 411 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 8: That's what comes up the most. They said, well, isn't 412 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 8: that just going to come out of trade? And shopper marketing. 413 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 8: You will see some shuffling of those dollars, but really 414 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 8: the value proposition of in store media is in many 415 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 8: ways akin to TV. There's mass reach, the audiences are 416 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 8: huge in stores. People forget that. You know, you have 417 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 8: scarcity of inventory, you have high quality inventory, you have 418 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 8: a level of cultural relevance. This is a lot of 419 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 8: what TV has done in the past, So I'd argue 420 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 8: TV budgets should. 421 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 7: Move over there. 422 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 8: And then there's a whole bunch of waste in digital advertising, 423 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 8: whether it's across YouTube, meta, open web programmatic, those are 424 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 8: all dollars that could easily get reallocated into instrument it. 425 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 1: Should, I agree with you, and should, although that's another 426 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: debate for about seventeen hours as well as to why 427 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: it won't or couldn't or what shouldn't or what so slow, 428 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: But you're right on that. Maybe some of the just 429 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: to your top line thoughts also entrew on the CMO 430 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: Council findings, what some of the sentiment amongst the markets, 431 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,479 Speaker 1: your observations there, what are your top ones? 432 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 8: Yeah, well you top lined it before in the beginning 433 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 8: of the podcast, which is that right now, there's an 434 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 8: over emphasis on those digital assets and you find that 435 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 8: the physical. 436 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 7: Assets are further down the list. 437 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 8: So we need to have more of a reprioritization of 438 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 8: that in the context of retail. And you know, I 439 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 8: think a big part of this, by the way, is 440 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 8: retail CEO is what they know is retail. They're very 441 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 8: good at generating revenue, and retail media is not a 442 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 8: core competency within those organizations. And so it also feels, 443 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 8: you know, part of the issue that Angus referred to, 444 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 8: where where you know, the CEO or the c suite 445 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 8: wants to see this really significant revenue growth in retail media. 446 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 8: And actually the first few years it was pretty easy 447 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 8: money coming out of COVID. Things rationalize, and all of 448 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 8: a sudden they realized they weren't going to get those 449 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 8: growth rates forever. But when you use a top down estimate, 450 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 8: you think, you should you think And the problem with 451 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 8: that comparison is that those top down estimates typically come 452 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 8: from the market leaders. 453 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 7: You know, a consultant will say you should. 454 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 8: Be able to get you know, what Walmart or Amazon 455 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 8: is getting, and that's not realistic. Those companies have been 456 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 8: at it for ten plus years to get to the 457 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 8: level of scale they're at now, and so you really 458 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 8: need to start to scale the opportunity gradually, piece by piece, 459 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 8: be realistic about the timelines, and then if you're really 460 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 8: going to seize the full opportunity. In most cases, retailer's 461 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 8: most important asset is the physical store, So if they're 462 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 8: not getting started on it now, then then they're just 463 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 8: not going to fulfill the potential now. 464 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: Andrew, we talked about this at the top a bit 465 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: earlier with Angus on the top down method, gross messiandized 466 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: value model in retality, commerce media evaluation. Uh, what's your 467 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: take on that of the US? Your impression of this 468 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 1: is this, are they right this? Top down? Bottom up? 469 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: One's worse ones better? Your thoughts? 470 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, listen, I'm the sort of guy who 471 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 8: loves to size an opportunity with the back of the 472 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 8: napkin calculation. But that's a starting point, and you know 473 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 8: it might work at a very high market level. The 474 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 8: problem is these are individual tailers that are trying to 475 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 8: grow their business, so it just doesn't work. They all 476 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 8: have very different strengths and weaknesses. They have assets that 477 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 8: are bigger or smaller. I mean take Dollar General as 478 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 8: an example. 479 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 7: Here in the US. 480 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 8: It has the single biggest footprint of physical stores twenty 481 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 8: thousand in the US, covering the entire contiguous United States. 482 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 8: E Commerce is you know, a very nascent business for them, 483 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 8: have very little of it, but their mobile app is 484 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 8: very heavily used and people bring it into the physical store. 485 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 8: So that's a mix of assets that is valuable and 486 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 8: especially valuable in certain areas and you know, isn't as 487 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 8: much in another area. And so what it's going to 488 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 8: take to realize the potential means understanding the true value 489 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 8: that they have with for example, their mobile app and 490 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 8: with their with their physical stores. And that's the only 491 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 8: way you can get up to what the right number 492 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 8: is going to be. And at the end of the day, 493 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,239 Speaker 8: you don't know what percentage of revenue that might be. 494 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 8: It probably fluctuates quite a bit depending on the retailer. 495 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 8: And some retailers are you know, pure plate e commerce, 496 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 8: so it's a totally different calculation there. 497 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: So, Jonathan, what's the alternative then on this on this 498 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: top down? How do they do it better? How do 499 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 1: how do companies do this whole thing retail media, commerce 500 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: media better? 501 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 9: In their evaluation, Well, the only viable method is a 502 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 9: bottom up approach which we advocate and at a minimum, 503 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 9: that starts with every single media format in the organization, 504 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 9: be it an app, tile, an email module, a gondor end, 505 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 9: a digital screen, whatever it might be. 506 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 5: Start with that. 507 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 6: Understand the customer size and the profile. Understand the category appeal, 508 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,199 Speaker 6: the business brand position, is it premium, mainstream or value 509 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 6: demand seasonality, When are the peaks throughout the year, what 510 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 6: are their targeting capabilities? And then the first party data 511 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 6: that business holds, so what are the media brand and 512 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 6: sales metrics that can add value to the media. So 513 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 6: it's quite a complex bottom up model, but it's worth 514 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 6: going through that exercise to get the accuracy. That's not 515 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 6: going to set your future retail media team up for 516 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 6: a fall. 517 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,360 Speaker 1: Right because it's more nuanced as opposed to a top 518 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: line take it off, take it out of the market 519 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: at rate, and say we can do that. 520 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:20,959 Speaker 2: Got it now, angus. 521 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 3: Now. 522 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 2: We also touched earlier about what sectors. 523 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: And brands have the most upside in this global global 524 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: report telcos and finance. I think the report says have potential, 525 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: but most are not well, not all, but most are lagging. 526 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:38,239 Speaker 2: You say there's a risk if they don't move. 527 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: We've covered the Telco financial stuff, but what's the risk 528 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: if they don't. 529 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 4: So the risks to not moving quickly is that, particularly 530 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 4: in a small market like Australia, there's not the scale 531 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 4: in size to support a huge number of players in 532 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,719 Speaker 4: the space within each category. But equally important, it's the 533 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 4: lost efficiencies. It's the lost strategic use of owned media, 534 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 4: the lost partnerships, the lost sponsorship negotiations that don't reflect 535 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 4: the value of what the sponsor brings beyond a check. 536 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 4: You know, owned media is like a sleeping giant for 537 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 4: a lot of organizations, and the longer it sleeps, the 538 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 4: longer they're missing out on the benefits of having a 539 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 4: giant in your corner. 540 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: Well, that's the risk of Jonathan Retailers, Banks, Telco's airlines. 541 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: Which of them are innovating because this is the upside. 542 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: On the flip side, there are some that are putting 543 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: the foot down and doing some interesting stuff. Run us 544 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: through a couple of really good examples of innovation in 545 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: this area. 546 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, Tesco has always. 547 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 6: Been a you know, one of the legacy retail media 548 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 6: businesses out of the UK that are doing interesting stuff. 549 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 6: They've got a Connected Store initiative, which has introduced one 550 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 6: of the most expansive in store media networks, for example 551 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 6: with instore placements integrated into their Scan and Go mobile app. 552 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 6: They've also been most active in partnering with TV brands, 553 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 6: so using their first party data for ad targeting, which 554 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 6: then seamlessly entwines owned media with there with TV networks 555 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 6: such as i TV, Channel four and Sky. Out of 556 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 6: the US, T Mobile Advertising Solutions is one of the 557 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 6: recent entrance to commerce media, and they've been pretty aggressive 558 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 6: in pursuing there. They're quite a unique owned media strategy. 559 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 6: They they purchased Octopus, which is digital out of home 560 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 6: network that powers seatback screens in Uber rides. So then 561 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 6: that has added a paid element and provides that media 562 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 6: network scale and relevance while customers are out of home, 563 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 6: so it links back to their product usage. So those 564 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 6: are probably the two highlights from the report. 565 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: Andrew, what do you see in the US, Who's who's 566 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: who do you see emerging as next best? 567 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 2: And what do they look like? 568 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: There's I'm assuming there's there's there's a bit of action. 569 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean so from the retail side, I would 570 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 8: say best by really it is an example of a 571 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 8: retailer that's embraced being a media company. And we saw 572 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 8: this in a really visible way with these store takeovers. 573 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 7: That they launched, where you almost wrapped the entire store. 574 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 8: The stores themselves have a lot of screens throughout, so 575 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 8: a brand can really take it over. They even have 576 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 8: a takeover in the front of the store. So that's 577 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,719 Speaker 8: that's thinking big and it's a really cool execution and 578 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 8: it works really well with both endemic and non endemic advertisers. 579 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 8: Right you can think it's great to do that if 580 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 8: you're a Microsoft or an Apple and you're selling in stores, 581 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 8: but it's also great for players in the entertainment space 582 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 8: because that's very adjacent to technology. 583 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: How long has that been, golly Andrew? Is a market 584 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: demand for that? How do you have you seen any 585 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: like the demand is good for that sort of sort 586 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: of stuff from bitsbon Oh yeah. 587 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 8: Best Buy did a sort of an upfronts last year 588 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 8: and they had they rolled out a bunch of announcements 589 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 8: that were pretty substantive, but that was the one that 590 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 8: caught fire, and they recently said that this is where 591 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 8: they're seeing a lot of demand right now, So you know, 592 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 8: it's part of it is that they're being led by 593 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 8: Lisa Valentino, their their retail media network, who came from 594 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 8: Disney and has been traditional media ad sales and she 595 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 8: knows what it's like to talk to brand marketers and 596 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 8: get those national media dollars. So that's really what all 597 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 8: the retail media networks are aspiring to and I think 598 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 8: they're taking some clear steps to do that. And then 599 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 8: we're also seeing some interesting commerce media network plays. You know, 600 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 8: United is one of the ones that really comes to 601 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 8: mind for me because we're seeing I mean I travel 602 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 8: United a lot, and you see the ads integrated into 603 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 8: the screen experiences into the back of the seats, and 604 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 8: similar to them, you also have experiences that could be 605 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 8: akin to that in the field world, whether it's an 606 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 8: Uber and the seatback screens there, or there's Marryott Media 607 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 8: Network that has. 608 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 7: Screens in the hotel rooms. 609 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 8: So it's all about making use of the physical assets 610 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 8: in the physical world, right, And it doesn't always have 611 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 8: to be a retail store, and it doesn't have to 612 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 8: be a stationary asset either. 613 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: And so just the final thought of that in the US, 614 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: Andrew is you've definitely seen some some some non traditional 615 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: players come in. What's your sense in the on the 616 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: shyke up of where where that to the point you 617 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: might earlier where the money is coming from, say in 618 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: a couple of years, if you see more of these 619 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: companies do this stuff in commerce. 620 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 2: And media networks, where do you where do you sense 621 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 2: the money is going to come from? To fund that? 622 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 8: Well, budgets are always going to be a dog fight, 623 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 8: but you know, for me, it's first about realizing where 624 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 8: the largest pools of overspending are occurring, and it goes 625 00:33:58,080 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 8: right to what some of the biggest budgets are. It's 626 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 8: which is digital. There's a lot of overspending there. Digital 627 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 8: is very good at taking credit for driving results that 628 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 8: it doesn't necessarily create. So one I think reallocation from there. 629 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 8: But listen, national media dollars have always existed in things 630 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 8: like publishing and television, and those audiences are shifting in 631 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 8: a big way. So my viewpoint is why not in 632 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 8: the physical world. Why not in physical stores? And the 633 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,359 Speaker 8: hardest part of that of making that happen is that 634 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 8: marketers really still see stores as a sales channel and 635 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,399 Speaker 8: media as a media channel, and really the physical store 636 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 8: can be both. So what's so cool about the example 637 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,359 Speaker 8: with best Buy is when you see it in those 638 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,439 Speaker 8: physical terms really embody being a media channel, it's much 639 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 8: easier for an advertiser to wrap their head around investing 640 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 8: it in that way. 641 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 2: Great, well, that's a really good check. 642 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: And we're going to wrap this up because we're out 643 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: of time, but I just wanted to wrap it up 644 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: with some some key takeouts watch outs from each of 645 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: you and seeing what's still with you. 646 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 2: Andrew, we'll go to you first. 647 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: But so the watchouts takeouts for both your market, but 648 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: globally and in certainly Australia. What should what should both 649 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: marketers that have got potential in commerce or retail and 650 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: marketers that are buying it. What are the key messages 651 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: you think they should be thinking about. 652 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, I think the single most important point 653 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 8: here is understanding how to value your assets, and that 654 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 8: requires a bottoms up approach. I have seen it play 655 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 8: out in the US across the entire ecosystem, and it's 656 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 8: pretty much some version of the same story. 657 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 7: Everywhere where you are. The C suite has. 658 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 8: Sold a number that they should hit. They saw the 659 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 8: fast growth early on in retail media and expected that 660 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,359 Speaker 8: that number was somehow realistic on a short timeline, and 661 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 8: it never was, and so it's caused a lot of 662 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 8: pain and it's actually slowed down the progress of building 663 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 8: out these networks. 664 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 7: It's a reptive development. 665 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,359 Speaker 8: It's because turmoil within teams, and frankly, it's slowed down 666 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 8: the development of instore media, which again is this it 667 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 8: my view, a mega opportunity that is finally getting out realized, 668 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 8: but we're probably two years later on it than we 669 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 8: should be. 670 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 1: Some really really strong points there, angus your final takeouts. 671 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 4: I think for any business who's considering building out a 672 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 4: retail or commerce media network to really acknowledge that the 673 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 4: real ROI of owned media doesn't just come from receiving 674 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,439 Speaker 4: a check from advertising. The real ROI comes from, yes, 675 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,399 Speaker 4: driving profitable revenue, but it's also about the strategic use 676 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 4: of owned media, about how you use your own media 677 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 4: to support your own. 678 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:52,760 Speaker 3: Brand and marketing. 679 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 4: It's about partnerships, it's about supporting sponsorships, core business performance. 680 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 4: So don't just go into this thinking I'm going to 681 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 4: get a check each month. Go into it with an 682 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 4: open mind around all the various ways that owned media 683 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:11,280 Speaker 4: can be leveraged. 684 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some work to do before the checks come, Jonathan, 685 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: your final thoughts, Yeah. 686 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 5: Just like going a lot of the sentiment of the conversation. 687 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 6: Just value your media accurately to avoid disappointment and with 688 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 6: an average of only thirty percent of potential leverage. 689 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 5: So far, shine a light on the vast untapped revenue 690 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,879 Speaker 5: in your organization and that's where you're going to find grave. 691 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: Great well, John and Hopkins, Angus Fraser, Andrew Littman. I'm 692 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: great to have you on the MIC's from far far 693 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: away and look forward to really another updates some good, 694 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: good insights there on what's happening in your market. So 695 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: thanks for joining gents, and we will talk again. 696 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 5: Thank you, Thank you. 697 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: This I three Audio edition was presented by Paul McIntyre, 698 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 1: producer Alisa Partington. 699 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 2: Music by Matt Dwyer. 700 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,359 Speaker 1: For more episodes, download the iHeart app and search three 701 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: Audio edition, or the same for any of the major 702 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: podcast networks.