WEBVTT - Inside the hardest year at Inventium (Part 1) 0:00:01.040 --> 0:00:05.320 Hello listener. This episode is a little bit different because 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:10.280 I'm interviewing someone from my team at Inventium, Ali Sully. 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:14.920 The idea came about after I published my Leadership Lessons 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:18.360 episode from twenty twenty four and a lot of people 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:22.080 contacted me wanting to know more like how bad did 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:25.720 it get and more importantly, how did we fix things? 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:30.240 So who better to unpack this with than one of 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:35.800 my amazing teammates, Ali, who lived through what was Inventium's 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:39.680 hardest year by far. Together, we pull apart what it 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:44.200 actually feels like inside a team that is kind of unraveling, 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:49.160 when trust cracks, when burnout creeps in, and when even 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:52.200 the high performers start to fall apart. 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:54.440 It's a pretty raw. 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:58.600 And human look at what happens when good intentions backfire 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:02.280 and how you can start to rebuild when the damage 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:12.480 is already done. Welcome to How I Work, a show 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:17.000 about habits, rituals, and strategies for optimizing your date. I'm 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:24.560 your host, doctor Amantha Imber. I'm so excited to be 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:27.319 chatting to you Ali, because we've worked together for a 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:30.720 couple of years and I was saying to you when 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:34.920 we were thinking about this episode that you don't often 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:39.760 hear podcast conversations where like the leader of a team 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:44.080 is chatting with a teammate's experience of a time that 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:45.120 was really challenging. 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:48.800 So I'm really grateful for you joining me today. 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:50.520 My pleasure. I'm excited. 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.800 So I want to first start with unpacking the pretty 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:59.440 hard year that twenty twenty four maybe like a little 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:01.800 bit of twenty two three, but certainly twenty twenty four 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:06.200 was for Inventium and I've certainly done a lot of 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:08.960 reflecting on where I think I got it wrong. And 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:12.480 I'm also keen to hear from you, like what were 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:17.760 the hardest things? So, Alie, what was some of the 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:20.120 tougher moments for you in twenty twenty four. 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:25.160 It's really interesting because I feel like there are a 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:29.079 few moments that kind of came together at some sort 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:33.080 of pinnacles through the year, and I guess my lowest 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:35.720 point in reflection I was thinking about this last night 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:39.080 was there were quite a few people that left in 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:42.520 a row, and because we had brought in a bit 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:45.800 of hierarchy at the start of the year, I was working. 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:48.480 Very very closely with one or two people and. 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:50.800 Not the rest of the team, So I think that 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:56.040 had its own issues that made it tricky to begin with, 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.280 in that we were all working as high performers but 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.960 not working together. And I was thinking about this last night, 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:07.440 thinking about the super Chickens experiment around you know, high performing, 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:11.160 productive chickens and how they bred them over a number 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:14.680 of years, but they actually ended up pecking each other 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:17.880 and not being as productive as the team that was cohesive. 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:21.640 And I thought that was such a good little summary 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:22.600 of where we were at. 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:25.760 We're all just high performers, but we weren't working together. 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:27.760 And I think when that, you know, we had a 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:32.720 series of people leave, and the point at which my 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:38.640 key confidante left, I guess that was a real low 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:43.080 point for me and I realized how siloed we were 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:46.800 in that way because I thought, well, first of. 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:48.120 All, how can I leave me? 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:52.160 But also during this time, but also who are these 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:54.440 other people in my team? And I actually didn't know, 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:57.280 you know, I didn't have the same level of trust 0:03:57.320 --> 0:03:59.640 with everyone else on the team. So I think in 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:03.440 around that way, you know, coming back to those tough moments, 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:07.000 had I seen what was coming up, it kind of 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:10.080 started to unravel for me at that first part of 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.680 the year where we were working so siloed in that way, 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:17.200 And yeah, I remember so many times where this was 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:21.240 apparent and at that moment where I thought, wow, I've 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:24.440 lost that one person. But there were many times through 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:27.480 the year and I remember each of us working towards 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.679 our own goals and this moment where I was snowed under, 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:35.120 you know, consulting was snowed under with what we were doing, 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:38.720 and then the other areas had their own priorities and 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:41.479 using loop and all of the tagging in all of 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:44.560 the different tasks, and one day where I was like, 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:46.200 oh my goodness, I don't know how I'm going to 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:48.560 get through, and then in came you know, fifty different 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:51.320 pings and dings of you've been assigned this task, you've 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:53.960 been assigned, and I just thought, Wow, I know they've 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:54.440 got their. 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:56.559 Priorities, but we have ours. 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:58.920 And there really was no overlap for quite a lot 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:01.840 of that time, so that made it incredibly difficult as well. 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.880 Yeah, when I look back at some of the decisions 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:07.680 I made in the first half of the year where 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:11.680 I had stepped back into a leadership position, I definitely 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:17.600 I remember why I put some hierarchy and different group 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:21.560 things of people in place because to me, and it's funny, 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.520 like you can put so much thought into a decision 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:28.279 and be aware of research, but then they can just 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:29.440 be terrible decisions. 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:32.280 And I look back and I know why I made the. 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:36.080 Decision, but it was a really bad decision in hindsight 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:38.680 because having more hierarchy. 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:44.800 While I think it was you know, like I. 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:46.520 Think it's natural to sort of, you know, want to 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:49.400 feel that sense of progression, I felt that was necessary 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:53.880 for some people in the team to have that feeling 0:05:54.640 --> 0:06:00.320 and that responsibility. The unintended consequences were that it really 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:05.160 divided the team and having the different areas and we were, 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:07.120 you know, we still are a small business. I think 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:08.919 we were, you know, around the sort of ten to 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:12.600 twelve mark, which as a CEO, like ten to twelve 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:15.000 people is too many direct reports and so there needs 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:18.840 to be some kind of structure. But I have huge 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:22.640 regrets about those decisions because I think, you know, as 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:27.359 you've highlighted, they didn't lead to positive behaviors. I also 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:29.080 think that you know, what happened in the middle of 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:31.840 the year, we had a change of leadership, and I 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:33.880 know that that was really hard. 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:38.400 For you, yeah, incredibly hard. I think it's natural for 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:41.600 new leaders to come in and we see this all 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:44.880 the time with organizations that we work with, with leaders 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:50.279 coming in and really keen to imprint something into the 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:54.560 organization very early on, and there can be some assumptions 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:58.680 around how you've worked before and that that will work 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:03.760 in the new organization. And I completely respect that need 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:09.600 to feel value straight up. But with inventingum, I think 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:13.320 the ways of working were under fire quite early with 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:17.000 new ways of working with new leadership, and had that 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:21.520 been at another organization, potentially it wouldn't have had so 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:26.280 much a resentment towards changing workplace practices. But because that's 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.120 who we are, that's our DNA, it's what we help 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:33.840 other organizations to do, is to work better and to 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:35.480 be happier and more productive. 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:37.800 So when the ways of working were under. 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:42.080 Fire with things like you know, the meetings culture changing 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:44.920 to be in line with a lot of what we 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:49.440 don't teach around you know, meetings going over time and 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:51.880 not being effective and not really having a real clear 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:55.760 purpose to meetings and some of these things that when 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:57.960 you're used to working and I think when you've been 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:02.120 you know, so intense about the practices that we've put 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:06.360 into place, that that was a really confronting place to be, 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.400 and I think it led to a lot of people 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:13.600 being offside from the very go. And you know, it's 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:16.880 very hard for a leader to then pull everything back 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:19.440 after that has been the case. 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:26.120 It is hard to rebuild trust once trust has been lost. Yeah, 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.760 I know a couple of things that I found quite 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:34.440 hard is Firstly, and it's something that we've heard other 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:38.400 leaders say in our own research and inventium, but I 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.520 had this really acute fear of just like what if 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:43.680 I say the wrong thing and what if I'm canceled, 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:47.400 Like in the same way that like high profile people 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:49.760 have a fear of cancelation. I felt like as a leader, 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:54.240 I feel like every word I said was just under critique, 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:58.439 and I therefore I felt like I silenced a lot 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.720 of what I wanted to say, just simply out of fear. 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.640 And I think that the unintended consequence of that is that, 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.760 you know, as a leader, we're told to be authentic 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:12.920 and be vulnerable, But because I was censoring myself so much, 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:15.880 I feel like I hid a lot of my experience 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:18.800 that might have actually been useful for people, which will 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:21.240 go into in terms of what happened in twenty twenty five, 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:23.400 because I felt that was quite a big change for me. 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:29.080 Something else I felt like it was kind of happening 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:34.080 before twenty twenty four, but seemed to get a lot worse, 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:37.320 which I think had a really negative impact on the culture, 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:43.400 was what I think of as triangulation where someone will have, say, 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:45.720 some critical feedback for someone else on the team, but 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:48.760 rather than going directly to that team member, they will 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:52.080 go up the chain to their manager, for example, or 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:53.800 just someone else that you know that might be their 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:57.240 confidante on the team and not necessarily their manager, and 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:59.800 then you have this triangle effect. And I got to say, like, 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:01.520 I think everyone of the team knows how much I 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:05.320 hate that behavior I saw that particularly happening. 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:08.400 Like, what was your experience of that triangulation? 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:11.880 Yeah, it's interesting because you know, I wasn't privy to 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:14.440 a lot of the conversations at that time where a 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:19.000 lot of those big discussions were happening, But being in 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:23.440 the outside part of the team of those conversations, I 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:26.960 think there was times where that became a bit of 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:29.800 a silo in itself too, and a bit of backchat 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:34.000 around what was happening, and then in our little streams 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:37.880 talking about things but actually not having a clear message 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:41.720 up and down. And I do think when you are 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:45.720 seeking safety in amongst change with which I think we 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:48.840 were all doing and with you know, we're in fight 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:51.040 and flight for a lot of that time, for quite 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:53.880 a long time of thinking, oh my goodness, so we 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.000 were going to be around anymore, what's happening? 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:57.680 Like what's going on here? 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:01.160 Quite high pressure on every So I think that's seeking 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:04.040 of safety and you seek out that person that's your confidant, 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:07.560 and so all of those conversations happen behind. So I 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:11.679 certainly did, you know, have some conversations like that myself 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:15.720 and know that that was happening around as well. And 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:18.079 you know, I know we'll talk about the future state, 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:21.080 but I can. I was reflecting on this last night 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:25.120 around how different it is where those conversations are just 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:28.520 aired straight away and nipped in the bud, compared to 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.959 some of those ones that were swirling around. Yeah, it's 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:34.320 a hard one because I think under that pressure, that's 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.400 what we automatically do is to go to that safety. 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:39.760 So yeah, interesting during that. 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:43.200 Time, Yeah, it's so funny how the most instinctive thing 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:47.319 to do is also the least constructive thing to do. 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:49.040 Absolutely coming up. 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:53.760 Ali shares what pushed her to quietly start browsing on Seek, 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:58.160 the moment that began to rebuild trust between us, and 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:03.160 the day everything finally broke, an ugly cryphone call that 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:10.200 changed how we work together. If you're looking for more 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:13.040 tips to improve the way you work can Live. I 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.800 write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.440 that have helped me personally. You can sign up for 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:28.080 that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot Com. Tell 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:30.400 me about getting on Seek, Allie. 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:33.040 Yes, I was on Seek for a few weeks. 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:36.760 I was very open when we had that final discussion 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.800 about what's going on, and I felt this incredible weight 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:44.640 on me actually of like it's not me really to 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:47.880 be doing, you know, not voicing how I'm feeling and 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:49.160 not being transparent. 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:51.040 I'm very transparent. 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:53.400 Person, so I feel like I had this incredible burden 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:54.880 on me, and I remember that moment. 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:56.240 I've said to you, by. 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:58.680 The way, I've been looking at other jobs and feeling 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:02.760 like sorry, but yeah, it was you know, I know 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:06.199 that other people were and I thought, you know, there 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:09.320 was a point at which I thought, potentially, maybe I 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:12.920 won't be around, Maybe my head's on the chopping block, 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.439 maybe the company's not going to be around. 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:17.000 Maybe this is a chance. 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.520 You know, there were so many unknowns, and I think 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.800 also I was so burnt out with what was going on. 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:26.880 There was an incredible amount of you know, we were 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:29.360 all working very long hours, but there was a lot 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:32.120 of that incivility in the in the team, of like 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:36.880 not working cohesively, and so I think at that point 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:41.120 I started looking, and you know, I looked around for 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:45.360 something that I had never looked for, which was pay. 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.000 I thought, if I'm going to be this miserable, I'm 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:50.760 going to look for a high paying, miserable job. 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:54.679 So looking for you know, leadership. 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:57.120 Positions here, and I just thought, because I'm so values driven, 0:13:57.240 --> 0:13:59.400 I was like, this isn't me, Like, this isn't what 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.040 I want to be doing. So I think that did 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:07.000 lead to my decision eventually to stay and to help 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:12.040 rebuild what I really valued and knew was the DNA 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:13.559 of Inventium. 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:18.360 But yeah, at the time, it was looking for direction. 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:19.520 I guess as well. 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.400 In the I really didn't have any direction in the 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:24.160 uncertainty of all the change. 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:28.120 Building trust I know was really important, and I think 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:30.160 it's fair to say there were probably a few moments 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:32.880 for you where where trust was built between the two 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:37.440 of us, because as context, we didn't have a lot 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:41.240 to do with each other for probably your first I 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:47.120 don't know, six to nine months at Inventium, and I 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.360 know that one key moment for you was in August 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:54.560 last year where you were credited in a particular well 0:14:54.600 --> 0:15:00.200 being surveyed the GLWS, the GLWS which stands for the 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:06.240 Global Leader Leadorship Well Being Survey, and I think we 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:09.800 were thinking of using it with clients, and that led 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.880 to me just being a guinea pig. And you've done 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.400 many debriefs in this survey. Can you tell me what 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:19.280 happened on that day where we got together and we 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.440 got together in person feed to debrief me on my results? 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:23.880 Yeah? I remember. 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:28.080 So the survey in itself is very thorough and it 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:32.040 goes through all aspects of work and home life, so 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.640 you know, it's an incredibly vulnerable position for you to 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:38.400 put yourself in. So I was quite aware of the 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:41.360 fact that we hadn't necessarily built up that trust as well, 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.960 And I remember at one point when we started diving 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.520 in and you said, I don't know how much to 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:51.840 give because how much I need to keep my sort 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:55.240 of position here and that professionalism, and how much I 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:57.920 need to give over to the survey and these results 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:00.800 and being open and honest, and and you said, I'm 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.960 just going to go for it because I'm only going 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:06.480 to get out what I put in. 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:09.360 And at that moment, I think. 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:13.640 It just opened up vulnerability for you, vulnerability for me 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.640 as well, to just be present with you with that, 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:22.200 And I think that moment was a real starting point 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:26.840 for that really strong trust that then continued. 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:28.120 To go to where we are today. 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:32.120 But yeah, that moment, I think had you been guarded 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:36.320 through that and not really shared openly and honestly. 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:38.360 I would have known and I would have been like, Okay, 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:39.080 this is just us. 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.800 Now, we're just going to skirt around the edges as 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:44.000 we all have been doing for six months. But I 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:47.800 think that really showed great faith in me and absolutely 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:50.520 more faith in you. From my perspective as well. 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:53.000 I know that one of the hardest parts of the 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:56.960 year was when retrenchments were happening, and you know, I 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:00.560 mean retrenchments are just awful for the person that is 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:03.440 losing their job. I've never been through it myself, but 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:07.080 I've had close friends go through it and have seen 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:11.399 just like what that experience is like for several people 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:15.800 that are really dear to me. And it's also if 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:18.120 you're a leader with even an ounce of empathy, which 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:22.480 most leaders are, it's a really hard and awful decision 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:24.879 to make. And I would say those decisions that I 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:28.960 had to make were preceded by months, literally months of 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:32.000 sleepless nights going there must be an alternative. And I 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.199 know for you it was really hard because some of 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.240 the people involved were people you were very close to. 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:43.840 And I'd love to hear about how those moments, again, 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:47.719 like on the topic of trust, that I was able 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:50.840 to do that consciously or unconsciously in a way that 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:53.000 helped us build our relationship. 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:53.639 Yeah. 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.440 Yeah, I think this was a really pivotal moment. As 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:59.480 you know, I was in quite a bit of grief 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:03.280 land this point of time. You know how I managed 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:04.879 to get an ounce of work done. 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:05.640 In that moment? 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:10.280 It was Yeah, I was quite flawed. So I do 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:14.399 remember a moment that just really flawed me in a 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:19.040 good way where you know, we've been through this before 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:22.560 in a couple of weeks earlier, and that hit me hard. 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:26.320 But then when that continued to happen, it just really 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:32.160 ground me down. And I remember, unlike what probably your 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.000 instinct was, was to keep calling and to check in, 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:41.879 just regular consistent messaging and letting me know that you 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:45.080 were there without forcing it on me at a time 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:47.479 when I wasn't ready to talk, and then when I 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:49.200 was finally ready, I think it was a couple of 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:52.159 days later, whereas I just need some space. But a 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:54.720 couple of days later when we did actually talk, and 0:18:55.680 --> 0:19:00.680 rather than going into justifying or you know, coming up 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:04.560 with anything from that you thought would help me, your 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:08.280 first reaction was, what do you need from me? Do 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.000 you need me to listen and for you to vent 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:14.880 or do you need me to reassure you and work 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:18.840 out a pathway forward here? And I've never had that 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:22.640 before actually from a leader, because in times of change, 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.800 I had always had leaders that had gone away, thought 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:27.760 about it and come back to me with what was 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:31.960 going to go on. So it was really different and refreshing, 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:35.240 and at that moment it also put that back on 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:39.000 me to reflect on where am I at with this grief? 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:41.560 And I think at that moment I was like, actually, 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:43.879 I need you to reassure me. I need us to 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:45.800 start working through the steps. 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:47.040 What are we going to do? How are we going 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:47.760 to get out of this? 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.080 And again that trust that we were able to build 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:56.480 and collaboration on trying to envision a different future, that 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:57.760 was really pivotal for me. 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:03.120 I know that another pivotal point happened in the back 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:06.840 half of the year where you had a massive workload 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:11.520 because the people that had left been retrenched. You picked 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:15.080 up quite a lot of work and there was a 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.480 moment where another teammate threw a whole lot of work 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:20.080 on you, even though they. 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.120 Probably could have made the time to do it themselves. 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:24.520 Tell me about what happened there. 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.480 Yeah, this was a real low point. I'd actually forgotten 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:30.680 about it till recently because I put it in the 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:31.480 back of my mind. 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:34.200 But yeah, you're right. I was just swamped with work. 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:36.520 It was the week leading up to Christmas as well, 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:39.879 so there's already high stakes in getting things across the line, 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:44.399 and had been working collaboratively and so I had thought, 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.080 we're going to get this done together across the line 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:52.560 and having looked in, you know, there was a message 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:54.399 come through that I'm not going to have time to 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:58.040 look at that. And then when I went in to 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:02.600 see what was taking precedent, you know whether I can 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:05.159 help out with that as well. We're all just hands 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:07.800 on deck at that moment to get things through for 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:11.919 clients before Christmas, and they'd chosen to go on a 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:16.800 client's end of year party extravaganza. And I think it 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:21.560 was two things. It was I was flawed by again 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:27.320 that individualistic approach to work. That is not the fundamentals 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:30.520 of how we work together at Inventium and especially now, 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:33.000 but it had become the way that we were working 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:36.840 with individual goals and individual priorities. But yeah, the other 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:40.159 thing was I was just I had zero capacity and 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:42.040 I was just thinking, what am I going to do? 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:44.919 I literally cannot do this. I'm going to have to 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:47.959 work twenty four hours a day. I think because of 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:52.119 all of the moments, and it was those small, consistent 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:54.919 moments over time, it wasn't one thing that led me 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:57.760 to think I really trust Samantha. It was all of 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:01.240 these check in moments and being vulnerable and honest with you. 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:03.560 I decided to pick up the phone. 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:06.000 You were in NUSA at the time, so it was 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:08.320 sort of this moment of going, I can't call her, 0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:12.639 but I had reached the bottom and I just ugly 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:15.280 cried to you on the phone and I thought, you know, 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:17.920 I never thought I would be doing this, And yeah, 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:19.560 it got to that point and I was like, I 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:22.640 just can't do this, and you jumped on and helped 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:26.159 me for that day to get over it, you know, 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:29.760 to get that work done. But that was, yeah, incredibly 0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:33.040 low point and probably a real reflection of where we 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:36.560 had got to as pretty much the lowest point I 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:38.399 think as a team. 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:42.119 Yeah, I remember getting that call from you because I 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:47.439 had taken a week of leave and I didn't expect 0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:51.040