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Speaker 1: Hello listener. This episode is a little bit different because

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Speaker 1: I'm interviewing someone from my team at Inventium, Ali Sully.

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Speaker 1: The idea came about after I published my Leadership Lessons

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Speaker 1: episode from twenty twenty four and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: contacted me wanting to know more like how bad did

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Speaker 1: it get and more importantly, how did we fix things?

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Speaker 1: So who better to unpack this with than one of

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Speaker 1: my amazing teammates, Ali, who lived through what was Inventium's

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Speaker 1: hardest year by far. Together, we pull apart what it

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Speaker 1: actually feels like inside a team that is kind of unraveling,

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Speaker 1: when trust cracks, when burnout creeps in, and when even

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Speaker 1: the high performers start to fall apart.

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Speaker 2: It's a pretty raw.

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Speaker 1: And human look at what happens when good intentions backfire

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Speaker 1: and how you can start to rebuild when the damage

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Speaker 1: is already done. Welcome to How I Work, a show

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Speaker 1: about habits, rituals, and strategies for optimizing your date. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host, doctor Amantha Imber. I'm so excited to be

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Speaker 1: chatting to you Ali, because we've worked together for a

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Speaker 1: couple of years and I was saying to you when

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Speaker 1: we were thinking about this episode that you don't often

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Speaker 1: hear podcast conversations where like the leader of a team

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Speaker 1: is chatting with a teammate's experience of a time that

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Speaker 1: was really challenging.

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Speaker 2: So I'm really grateful for you joining me today.

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Speaker 3: My pleasure. I'm excited.

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Speaker 1: So I want to first start with unpacking the pretty

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Speaker 1: hard year that twenty twenty four maybe like a little

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Speaker 1: bit of twenty two three, but certainly twenty twenty four

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Speaker 1: was for Inventium and I've certainly done a lot of

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Speaker 1: reflecting on where I think I got it wrong. And

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Speaker 1: I'm also keen to hear from you, like what were

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Speaker 1: the hardest things? So, Alie, what was some of the

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Speaker 1: tougher moments for you in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 4: It's really interesting because I feel like there are a

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Speaker 4: few moments that kind of came together at some sort

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Speaker 4: of pinnacles through the year, and I guess my lowest

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Speaker 4: point in reflection I was thinking about this last night

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Speaker 4: was there were quite a few people that left in

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Speaker 4: a row, and because we had brought in a bit

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Speaker 4: of hierarchy at the start of the year, I was working.

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Speaker 3: Very very closely with one or two people and.

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Speaker 4: Not the rest of the team, So I think that

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Speaker 4: had its own issues that made it tricky to begin with,

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Speaker 4: in that we were all working as high performers but

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Speaker 4: not working together. And I was thinking about this last night,

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Speaker 4: thinking about the super Chickens experiment around you know, high performing,

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Speaker 4: productive chickens and how they bred them over a number

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Speaker 4: of years, but they actually ended up pecking each other

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Speaker 4: and not being as productive as the team that was cohesive.

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Speaker 4: And I thought that was such a good little summary

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Speaker 4: of where we were at.

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Speaker 3: We're all just high performers, but we weren't working together.

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Speaker 4: And I think when that, you know, we had a

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Speaker 4: series of people leave, and the point at which my

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Speaker 4: key confidante left, I guess that was a real low

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Speaker 4: point for me and I realized how siloed we were

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Speaker 4: in that way because I thought, well, first of.

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Speaker 3: All, how can I leave me?

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Speaker 4: But also during this time, but also who are these

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Speaker 4: other people in my team? And I actually didn't know,

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Speaker 4: you know, I didn't have the same level of trust

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Speaker 4: with everyone else on the team. So I think in

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Speaker 4: around that way, you know, coming back to those tough moments,

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Speaker 4: had I seen what was coming up, it kind of

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Speaker 4: started to unravel for me at that first part of

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Speaker 4: the year where we were working so siloed in that way,

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Speaker 4: And yeah, I remember so many times where this was

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Speaker 4: apparent and at that moment where I thought, wow, I've

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Speaker 4: lost that one person. But there were many times through

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Speaker 4: the year and I remember each of us working towards

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Speaker 4: our own goals and this moment where I was snowed under,

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Speaker 4: you know, consulting was snowed under with what we were doing,

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Speaker 4: and then the other areas had their own priorities and

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Speaker 4: using loop and all of the tagging in all of

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Speaker 4: the different tasks, and one day where I was like,

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Speaker 4: oh my goodness, I don't know how I'm going to

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Speaker 4: get through, and then in came you know, fifty different

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Speaker 4: pings and dings of you've been assigned this task, you've

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Speaker 4: been assigned, and I just thought, Wow, I know they've

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Speaker 4: got their.

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Speaker 3: Priorities, but we have ours.

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Speaker 4: And there really was no overlap for quite a lot

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Speaker 4: of that time, so that made it incredibly difficult as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, when I look back at some of the decisions

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Speaker 1: I made in the first half of the year where

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Speaker 1: I had stepped back into a leadership position, I definitely

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Speaker 1: I remember why I put some hierarchy and different group

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Speaker 1: things of people in place because to me, and it's funny,

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Speaker 1: like you can put so much thought into a decision

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Speaker 1: and be aware of research, but then they can just

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Speaker 1: be terrible decisions.

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Speaker 2: And I look back and I know why I made the.

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Speaker 1: Decision, but it was a really bad decision in hindsight

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Speaker 1: because having more hierarchy.

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Speaker 2: While I think it was you know, like I.

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Speaker 1: Think it's natural to sort of, you know, want to

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Speaker 1: feel that sense of progression, I felt that was necessary

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Speaker 1: for some people in the team to have that feeling

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Speaker 1: and that responsibility. The unintended consequences were that it really

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Speaker 1: divided the team and having the different areas and we were,

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Speaker 1: you know, we still are a small business. I think

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Speaker 1: we were, you know, around the sort of ten to

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Speaker 1: twelve mark, which as a CEO, like ten to twelve

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Speaker 1: people is too many direct reports and so there needs

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Speaker 1: to be some kind of structure. But I have huge

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Speaker 1: regrets about those decisions because I think, you know, as

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Speaker 1: you've highlighted, they didn't lead to positive behaviors. I also

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Speaker 1: think that you know, what happened in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the year, we had a change of leadership, and I

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Speaker 1: know that that was really hard.

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Speaker 4: For you, yeah, incredibly hard. I think it's natural for

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Speaker 4: new leaders to come in and we see this all

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Speaker 4: the time with organizations that we work with, with leaders

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Speaker 4: coming in and really keen to imprint something into the

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Speaker 4: organization very early on, and there can be some assumptions

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Speaker 4: around how you've worked before and that that will work

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Speaker 4: in the new organization. And I completely respect that need

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Speaker 4: to feel value straight up. But with inventingum, I think

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Speaker 4: the ways of working were under fire quite early with

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Speaker 4: new ways of working with new leadership, and had that

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Speaker 4: been at another organization, potentially it wouldn't have had so

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Speaker 4: much a resentment towards changing workplace practices. But because that's

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Speaker 4: who we are, that's our DNA, it's what we help

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Speaker 4: other organizations to do, is to work better and to

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Speaker 4: be happier and more productive.

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Speaker 3: So when the ways of working were under.

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Speaker 4: Fire with things like you know, the meetings culture changing

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Speaker 4: to be in line with a lot of what we

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Speaker 4: don't teach around you know, meetings going over time and

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Speaker 4: not being effective and not really having a real clear

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Speaker 4: purpose to meetings and some of these things that when

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Speaker 4: you're used to working and I think when you've been

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Speaker 4: you know, so intense about the practices that we've put

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Speaker 4: into place, that that was a really confronting place to be,

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Speaker 4: and I think it led to a lot of people

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Speaker 4: being offside from the very go. And you know, it's

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Speaker 4: very hard for a leader to then pull everything back

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Speaker 4: after that has been the case.

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Speaker 1: It is hard to rebuild trust once trust has been lost. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know a couple of things that I found quite

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Speaker 1: hard is Firstly, and it's something that we've heard other

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Speaker 1: leaders say in our own research and inventium, but I

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Speaker 1: had this really acute fear of just like what if

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Speaker 1: I say the wrong thing and what if I'm canceled,

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Speaker 1: Like in the same way that like high profile people

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Speaker 1: have a fear of cancelation. I felt like as a leader,

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Speaker 1: I feel like every word I said was just under critique,

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Speaker 1: and I therefore I felt like I silenced a lot

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Speaker 1: of what I wanted to say, just simply out of fear.

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Speaker 1: And I think that the unintended consequence of that is that,

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Speaker 1: you know, as a leader, we're told to be authentic

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Speaker 1: and be vulnerable, But because I was censoring myself so much,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I hid a lot of my experience

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Speaker 1: that might have actually been useful for people, which will

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Speaker 1: go into in terms of what happened in twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: because I felt that was quite a big change for me.

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Speaker 1: Something else I felt like it was kind of happening

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Speaker 1: before twenty twenty four, but seemed to get a lot worse,

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Speaker 1: which I think had a really negative impact on the culture,

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Speaker 1: was what I think of as triangulation where someone will have, say,

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Speaker 1: some critical feedback for someone else on the team, but

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Speaker 1: rather than going directly to that team member, they will

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Speaker 1: go up the chain to their manager, for example, or

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Speaker 1: just someone else that you know that might be their

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Speaker 1: confidante on the team and not necessarily their manager, and

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Speaker 1: then you have this triangle effect. And I got to say, like,

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Speaker 1: I think everyone of the team knows how much I

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Speaker 1: hate that behavior I saw that particularly happening.

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Speaker 2: Like, what was your experience of that triangulation?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting because you know, I wasn't privy to

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Speaker 4: a lot of the conversations at that time where a

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Speaker 4: lot of those big discussions were happening, But being in

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Speaker 4: the outside part of the team of those conversations, I

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Speaker 4: think there was times where that became a bit of

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Speaker 4: a silo in itself too, and a bit of backchat

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Speaker 4: around what was happening, and then in our little streams

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Speaker 4: talking about things but actually not having a clear message

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Speaker 4: up and down. And I do think when you are

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Speaker 4: seeking safety in amongst change with which I think we

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Speaker 4: were all doing and with you know, we're in fight

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Speaker 4: and flight for a lot of that time, for quite

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Speaker 4: a long time of thinking, oh my goodness, so we

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Speaker 4: were going to be around anymore, what's happening?

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Speaker 3: Like what's going on here?

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Speaker 4: Quite high pressure on every So I think that's seeking

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Speaker 4: of safety and you seek out that person that's your confidant,

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Speaker 4: and so all of those conversations happen behind. So I

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Speaker 4: certainly did, you know, have some conversations like that myself

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Speaker 4: and know that that was happening around as well. And

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Speaker 4: you know, I know we'll talk about the future state,

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Speaker 4: but I can. I was reflecting on this last night

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Speaker 4: around how different it is where those conversations are just

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Speaker 4: aired straight away and nipped in the bud, compared to

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Speaker 4: some of those ones that were swirling around. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 4: a hard one because I think under that pressure, that's

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Speaker 4: what we automatically do is to go to that safety.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, interesting during that.

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Speaker 1: Time, Yeah, it's so funny how the most instinctive thing

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Speaker 1: to do is also the least constructive thing to do.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely coming up.

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Speaker 1: Ali shares what pushed her to quietly start browsing on Seek,

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Speaker 1: the moment that began to rebuild trust between us, and

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Speaker 1: the day everything finally broke, an ugly cryphone call that

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Speaker 1: changed how we work together. If you're looking for more

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Speaker 1: tips to improve the way you work can Live. I

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Speaker 1: write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered

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Speaker 1: that have helped me personally. You can sign up for

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Speaker 1: that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot Com. Tell

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Speaker 1: me about getting on Seek, Allie.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I was on Seek for a few weeks.

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Speaker 4: I was very open when we had that final discussion

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Speaker 4: about what's going on, and I felt this incredible weight

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Speaker 4: on me actually of like it's not me really to

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Speaker 4: be doing, you know, not voicing how I'm feeling and

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Speaker 4: not being transparent.

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Speaker 3: I'm very transparent.

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Speaker 4: Person, so I feel like I had this incredible burden

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Speaker 4: on me, and I remember that moment.

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Speaker 3: I've said to you, by.

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Speaker 4: The way, I've been looking at other jobs and feeling

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Speaker 4: like sorry, but yeah, it was you know, I know

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Speaker 4: that other people were and I thought, you know, there

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Speaker 4: was a point at which I thought, potentially, maybe I

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Speaker 4: won't be around, Maybe my head's on the chopping block,

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Speaker 4: maybe the company's not going to be around.

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Speaker 3: Maybe this is a chance.

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Speaker 4: You know, there were so many unknowns, and I think

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Speaker 4: also I was so burnt out with what was going on.

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Speaker 4: There was an incredible amount of you know, we were

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Speaker 4: all working very long hours, but there was a lot

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Speaker 4: of that incivility in the in the team, of like

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Speaker 4: not working cohesively, and so I think at that point

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Speaker 4: I started looking, and you know, I looked around for

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Speaker 4: something that I had never looked for, which was pay.

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Speaker 4: I thought, if I'm going to be this miserable, I'm

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Speaker 4: going to look for a high paying, miserable job.

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Speaker 3: So looking for you know, leadership.

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Speaker 4: Positions here, and I just thought, because I'm so values driven,

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Speaker 4: I was like, this isn't me, Like, this isn't what

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Speaker 4: I want to be doing. So I think that did

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Speaker 4: lead to my decision eventually to stay and to help

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Speaker 4: rebuild what I really valued and knew was the DNA

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Speaker 4: of Inventium.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, at the time, it was looking for direction.

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Speaker 3: I guess as well.

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Speaker 4: In the I really didn't have any direction in the

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Speaker 4: uncertainty of all the change.

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Speaker 1: Building trust I know was really important, and I think

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Speaker 1: it's fair to say there were probably a few moments

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Speaker 1: for you where where trust was built between the two

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Speaker 1: of us, because as context, we didn't have a lot

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Speaker 1: to do with each other for probably your first I

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Speaker 1: don't know, six to nine months at Inventium, and I

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Speaker 1: know that one key moment for you was in August

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Speaker 1: last year where you were credited in a particular well

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Speaker 1: being surveyed the GLWS, the GLWS which stands for the

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Speaker 1: Global Leader Leadorship Well Being Survey, and I think we

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Speaker 1: were thinking of using it with clients, and that led

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Speaker 1: to me just being a guinea pig. And you've done

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Speaker 1: many debriefs in this survey. Can you tell me what

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Speaker 1: happened on that day where we got together and we

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Speaker 1: got together in person feed to debrief me on my results?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I remember.

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Speaker 4: So the survey in itself is very thorough and it

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Speaker 4: goes through all aspects of work and home life, so

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Speaker 4: you know, it's an incredibly vulnerable position for you to

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Speaker 4: put yourself in. So I was quite aware of the

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Speaker 4: fact that we hadn't necessarily built up that trust as well,

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Speaker 4: And I remember at one point when we started diving

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Speaker 4: in and you said, I don't know how much to

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Speaker 4: give because how much I need to keep my sort

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Speaker 4: of position here and that professionalism, and how much I

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Speaker 4: need to give over to the survey and these results

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Speaker 4: and being open and honest, and and you said, I'm

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Speaker 4: just going to go for it because I'm only going

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Speaker 4: to get out what I put in.

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Speaker 3: And at that moment, I think.

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Speaker 4: It just opened up vulnerability for you, vulnerability for me

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Speaker 4: as well, to just be present with you with that,

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Speaker 4: And I think that moment was a real starting point

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Speaker 4: for that really strong trust that then continued.

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Speaker 3: To go to where we are today.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, that moment, I think had you been guarded

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Speaker 4: through that and not really shared openly and honestly.

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Speaker 3: I would have known and I would have been like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: this is just us.

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Speaker 4: Now, we're just going to skirt around the edges as

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Speaker 4: we all have been doing for six months. But I

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Speaker 4: think that really showed great faith in me and absolutely

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Speaker 4: more faith in you. From my perspective as well.

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Speaker 1: I know that one of the hardest parts of the

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Speaker 1: year was when retrenchments were happening, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: mean retrenchments are just awful for the person that is

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Speaker 1: losing their job. I've never been through it myself, but

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Speaker 1: I've had close friends go through it and have seen

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Speaker 1: just like what that experience is like for several people

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Speaker 1: that are really dear to me. And it's also if

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Speaker 1: you're a leader with even an ounce of empathy, which

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Speaker 1: most leaders are, it's a really hard and awful decision

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Speaker 1: to make. And I would say those decisions that I

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Speaker 1: had to make were preceded by months, literally months of

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Speaker 1: sleepless nights going there must be an alternative. And I

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Speaker 1: know for you it was really hard because some of

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Speaker 1: the people involved were people you were very close to.

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Speaker 1: And I'd love to hear about how those moments, again,

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Speaker 1: like on the topic of trust, that I was able

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Speaker 1: to do that consciously or unconsciously in a way that

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Speaker 1: helped us build our relationship.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think this was a really pivotal moment. As

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Speaker 4: you know, I was in quite a bit of grief

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Speaker 4: land this point of time. You know how I managed

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Speaker 4: to get an ounce of work done.

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Speaker 3: In that moment?

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Speaker 4: It was Yeah, I was quite flawed. So I do

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Speaker 4: remember a moment that just really flawed me in a

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Speaker 4: good way where you know, we've been through this before

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Speaker 4: in a couple of weeks earlier, and that hit me hard.

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Speaker 4: But then when that continued to happen, it just really

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Speaker 4: ground me down. And I remember, unlike what probably your

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Speaker 4: instinct was, was to keep calling and to check in,

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Speaker 4: just regular consistent messaging and letting me know that you

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Speaker 4: were there without forcing it on me at a time

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Speaker 4: when I wasn't ready to talk, and then when I

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Speaker 4: was finally ready, I think it was a couple of

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Speaker 4: days later, whereas I just need some space. But a

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Speaker 4: couple of days later when we did actually talk, and

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Speaker 4: rather than going into justifying or you know, coming up

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Speaker 4: with anything from that you thought would help me, your

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Speaker 4: first reaction was, what do you need from me? Do

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Speaker 4: you need me to listen and for you to vent

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Speaker 4: or do you need me to reassure you and work

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Speaker 4: out a pathway forward here? And I've never had that

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Speaker 4: before actually from a leader, because in times of change,

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Speaker 4: I had always had leaders that had gone away, thought

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Speaker 4: about it and come back to me with what was

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Speaker 4: going to go on. So it was really different and refreshing,

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Speaker 4: and at that moment it also put that back on

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Speaker 4: me to reflect on where am I at with this grief?

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Speaker 4: And I think at that moment I was like, actually,

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Speaker 4: I need you to reassure me. I need us to

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Speaker 4: start working through the steps.

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Speaker 3: What are we going to do? How are we going

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Speaker 3: to get out of this?

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Speaker 4: And again that trust that we were able to build

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Speaker 4: and collaboration on trying to envision a different future, that

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Speaker 4: was really pivotal for me.

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Speaker 1: I know that another pivotal point happened in the back

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Speaker 1: half of the year where you had a massive workload

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Speaker 1: because the people that had left been retrenched. You picked

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Speaker 1: up quite a lot of work and there was a

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Speaker 1: moment where another teammate threw a whole lot of work

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Speaker 1: on you, even though they.

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Speaker 2: Probably could have made the time to do it themselves.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about what happened there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this was a real low point. I'd actually forgotten

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Speaker 4: about it till recently because I put it in the

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Speaker 4: back of my mind.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, you're right. I was just swamped with work.

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Speaker 4: It was the week leading up to Christmas as well,

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Speaker 4: so there's already high stakes in getting things across the line,

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Speaker 4: and had been working collaboratively and so I had thought,

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Speaker 4: we're going to get this done together across the line

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Speaker 4: and having looked in, you know, there was a message

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Speaker 4: come through that I'm not going to have time to

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Speaker 4: look at that. And then when I went in to

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Speaker 4: see what was taking precedent, you know whether I can

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Speaker 4: help out with that as well. We're all just hands

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Speaker 4: on deck at that moment to get things through for

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Speaker 4: clients before Christmas, and they'd chosen to go on a

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Speaker 4: client's end of year party extravaganza. And I think it

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Speaker 4: was two things. It was I was flawed by again

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Speaker 4: that individualistic approach to work. That is not the fundamentals

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Speaker 4: of how we work together at Inventium and especially now,

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Speaker 4: but it had become the way that we were working

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Speaker 4: with individual goals and individual priorities. But yeah, the other

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Speaker 4: thing was I was just I had zero capacity and

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Speaker 4: I was just thinking, what am I going to do?

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Speaker 4: I literally cannot do this. I'm going to have to

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Speaker 4: work twenty four hours a day. I think because of

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Speaker 4: all of the moments, and it was those small, consistent

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Speaker 4: moments over time, it wasn't one thing that led me

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Speaker 4: to think I really trust Samantha. It was all of

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Speaker 4: these check in moments and being vulnerable and honest with you.

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Speaker 3: I decided to pick up the phone.

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Speaker 4: You were in NUSA at the time, so it was

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Speaker 4: sort of this moment of going, I can't call her,

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Speaker 4: but I had reached the bottom and I just ugly

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Speaker 4: cried to you on the phone and I thought, you know,

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Speaker 4: I never thought I would be doing this, And yeah,

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Speaker 4: it got to that point and I was like, I

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Speaker 4: just can't do this, and you jumped on and helped

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Speaker 4: me for that day to get over it, you know,

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Speaker 4: to get that work done. But that was, yeah, incredibly

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Speaker 4: low point and probably a real reflection of where we

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Speaker 4: had got to as pretty much the lowest point I

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Speaker 4: think as a team.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember getting that call from you because I

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Speaker 1: had taken a week of leave and I didn't expect

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Speaker 1: to be contacted, I don't think. And then yeah, when

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Speaker 1: you called me, I just remember just just I just

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Speaker 1: need to help, Like it doesn't really matter that I'm

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Speaker 1: on leave. It's like I just need to get in

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Speaker 1: here and help. And also I thought my knowledge of

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Speaker 1: the project is different to Allie's, and two three hours

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Speaker 1: of me doing some intense work is the equivalent to

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Speaker 1: you probably taking two days to catch up. So I

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Speaker 1: just thought that decision makes sense to me.

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Speaker 4: I think it really set the tone as well heading

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Speaker 4: into Christmas for us to take into the next year,

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Speaker 4: because it could have ended very badly where I went

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Speaker 4: across Christmas and thought that's it for me, I'm out.

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Speaker 4: But instead that moment where we came together in crisis

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Speaker 4: really solidified what that was for us as a company.

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Speaker 4: I think for the next year.

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Speaker 1: Today was just part one of my chat with Ali

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Speaker 1: because we kept on talking. Next week, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: be releasing part two of our chat, where together we

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Speaker 1: unpack exactly how we set that reset button. We're going

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Speaker 1: to be talking about the off site that really changed,

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Speaker 1: the tiny rituals that rebuilt connection, and the moment I

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Speaker 1: realized my fear of saying the wrong thing had finally disappeared.

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Speaker 1: Make sure you hit follow wherever you listen to this

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00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: podcast to be alerted when next week's conversation drops. And

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Speaker 1: if you know someone who'd benefit hearing this pretty honest

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00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: chat about leadership, please share the episode with them. How

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Speaker 1: I Work was recorded on the traditional land of the

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Speaker 1: Warrangery People, part of the Cooler Nation