WEBVTT - Who’s spying on Australia? 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:03.080 Already and this is the daily This is the daily, 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:06.840 This is the Daily oas Oh, now it makes sense. 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:17.680 Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Friday, 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:21.640 the twenty first of February. I'm Emma, I'm Billy. This 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:25.439 week the head of Australia's spy agency, Mike Burgers, gave 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:28.120 his annual Threat Assessment address. 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:32.800 ASIO investigations have identified at least three different countries plotting 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:37.320 to physically harm people in Australia. More recently, asio's intelligence 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:40.640 indicated a different hostile foreign intelligence service wanted to harm 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:44.280 and possibly kill one or more individuals. We determine this 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:46.640 blot was part of a broader effort by the regime 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:49.320 to eliminate critics of the foreign government around the world. 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:55.880 So, Emma, it is the sixth year that the ASIO 0:00:55.960 --> 0:01:00.400 boss has delivered a wide ranging speech like this, but 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:04.640 for many reasons, specific details about these threats and where 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:07.920 they come from a kept confidential. You and I were 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:11.560 talking about this this morning, about the reasons why they 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:15.240 have to keep the details very confidential, and so I 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:19.920 think an interesting question to explore today is is Australia 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.000 more or less safe than it was a year ago? 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:27.440 Yeah, so to unpack what Mike Burgess said and the 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:30.680 role of AZO in our everyday lives, I've decided to 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:32.880 bring in an expert for this one to help us 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:36.320 read between the lines. Sometimes the language of these addresses 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:40.080 can be quite complex and feel quite far away. Jennifer 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:44.320 Parker is a defense analyst and security expert with anu's 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:49.520 National Security College. She also has extensive operational experience, with 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.880 over twenty years of service with the Royal Australian Navy 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:56.920 under her belt, and she joins US now. Jennifer, welcome 0:01:56.920 --> 0:01:57.720 to the podcast. 0:01:58.240 --> 0:01:59.680 Hey Ema, thanks for having me on. 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:02.680 We are really excited to be chatting to you today. 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:06.600 We're talking, of course, about this wide ranging speech from 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:10.960 ASIO Director General Mark Burgers this week. What is the 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:14.920 significance of the Annual Threat Assessment? What is the purpose 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:15.200 of it? 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:17.799 Okay, I think the purpose of it is to make 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:21.600 sure the Australian public is aware of what has been happening. 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.799 So often, there's a lot of criticism of defense and 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:29.440 national security organizations in Australia because we say they lack transparency. 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:30.600 Well, actually, when. 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:32.399 You look at ASIO, which is really one of our 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:35.600 most secret organizations in Australia. I think this annual Threat 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:39.440 Assessment is an approach to make sure that the Australian 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:42.760 public understands what is happening and can respond to that. 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:43.480 And I think that's. 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.639 Become even more important given what has been the significant 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:51.440 deterioration of our strategic circumstances, with conflict in Europe, conflict 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:53.919 in the Middle East, and seeing some of that play 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:57.440 out actually in Australia with impacts on our social cohesion. 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:00.000 What are some of the major themes that came out 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:02.760 out of the address this time around? Was there much 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:06.200 that had changed or shifted from this here last year? 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:08.880 Look, I think the first thing that's actually shifted is 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:12.360 how ASIO have approached this Annual Threat Assessment. 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:14.160 So in previous. 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:16.280 Years it's kind of been a backca so it's been 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:19.440 a look at what has happened, at what have been 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:23.160 some of those trends. Intentionally, this year ASIO I have 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:27.200 sent to kind of declassify elements, or they've said declassify 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.600 elements of their forward looking assessment till twenty thirty, so 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:34.000 not only say what's happened, but what do we expect 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:36.119 to see in the next five years, What are going 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:39.040 to be the trends, So I think that's the first change. 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:41.880 I think the second change is that Mike Burgess ahead 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:45.120 of Asio, was clearly at Pains to highlight the fact 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:48.120 that we are in a really difficult time. 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:50.040 For a whole bunch of reasons. And I'm sure we'll. 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:52.640 Get into that, but he called it the most significant 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:56.640 and sobering assessment, and that is something that is really 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:59.280 something that the public should take on board in terms 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:02.080 of the pact of how much things are changing now, 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:04.240 what are those things that are changing. There is a 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:07.920 discussion in it around foreign influence operations within Australia, and 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.720 that's a discussion we've actually been having probably for about 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:12.680 ten years in Australia, and Australia has taken a lot 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:15.040 of proactive measures to put laws in place to try 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:18.000 and reduce that. There's been discussion, of course, about the 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:21.120 threat of terrorism. What's changed on that point is the 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:24.440 fact that Mike Burgis highlights that the way we've traditionally 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:27.279 thought about terrorism, the threat of terrorism in the last 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:31.480 twenty years has started to morph and we're seeing potential 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:36.799 terrorists people being influenced by mixed ideologies, not the traditional things, 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:38.520 you know, We've talked a lot in the last twenty 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.479 years about the influence of our CATA, certainly in the 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:44.120 last ten years about the influence of ISIS. But actually 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:46.280 some of the examples given in this threat assessment talk 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:49.840 about people with you know, extreme leftist views who also 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:53.560 support neo Nazis, which to the average person seems completely 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:56.080 at odds. But this is this mixed ideology which is 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:58.880 difficult to track. So the threat system of talks about 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:02.039 that as a change. It also talks about something we 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:04.040 talk about a lot these days, which is the influence 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:07.560 of social media in allowing that to be propelled and 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:13.880 how that's impacting both political violence anti Semitism within Australia. 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:17.279 So that's a key trend change. The other trend change 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:19.000 is I think there's a clear warning in the Threat 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:23.000 Assessment brief about our upcoming election and the potential influence 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.440 of foreign actors on trying to influence the outcome of 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:30.920 that election through ideas of misinformation or disinformation, and that's 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.360 been a common trend throughout democratic elections now over the 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:36.159 last couple of years, something in Australia has been fairly 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:39.359 resilient to but clearly a concern for AZEO this year. 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:42.359 I think the other trends is there's a really over 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:46.760 conversation about issues of espionage. Now when we think espionage, 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:49.719 we think James Bond, we think Cold War. But there's 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.680 a clear trend in the thread assessment saying that espionage, 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:56.160 especially as Australia continues to develop some of its high 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:59.920 tech capabilities, so orcus Australia's nuclear powered submarine pathways meant 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.640 and esminagen's becoming an increasing threat. And we did see 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:06.760 last year in fact, the Coralov case where we had 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:09.159 a member of the Australian Defense Force who's actually found 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:11.279 to have been spying for Russia. And then the other 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:14.599 trend is this idea of sabotage, which is the idea 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:18.920 that foreign actors, so foreign governments, might seek to actually 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.520 impact infrastructure in Australia, and that is a trend we're 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:25.599 seeing across Europe. So in the last twelve months there's 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:29.120 been about one hundred sabotage attacks from subse cables to 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.479 fires in warehouses to cyber attacks that have actually been 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:36.200 attributed to Russia. So some clear changes in this threat assessment, 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:38.400 not only in the way it's approach, but the issues 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:40.960 that we are having to deal with, and these are 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.880 trends not just impacting Australia but impacting globally. 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:47.720 So many of the kind of threats and trends that 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:53.640 you've articulated there really speak to emerging challenges and technology 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:59.159 innovations and unprecedented conversations around the new face of extreme 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:03.680 is a mixed idealogies. As you mentioned, how does AZIO 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:07.839 kind of work to respond to and manage those threats 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:11.520 in that evolving space? And I guess more broadly, you know, 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:15.400 for some of our listeners, what does ASIO actually do? 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:17.239 Yeah, look, I think. 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.960 I have never worked in in ASIO, but certainly their 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:24.320 approach seems to be first to be able to understand 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:28.160 what is happening that involves human intelligence, which actually was 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.640 mentioned a lot in the Threat Assessment report. That is, 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.120 people of the general public who may work with ASIO, 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:39.120 who might inform ASIO, and in fact, as a slight segue, 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.280 the report actually talked about the sacrifices that these people 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:45.600 make for their country and establishing a plaque to actually 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.000 honor them in the AZO building. Of course, there is 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.440 a huge cyber presence from Asia and now we don't 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.160 know exactly what that entails. But in the threat assessment, 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:56.360 we saw that the AZO cyber team had actually discovered 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:59.160 a plot in the US of a young kid who 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:02.040 was planning sadly, a school shooting in the US, and 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:04.680 they had managed to detect that online and stop that. 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:10.040 So AZEO managers internal security in Australia. Now they have 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:13.960 seven key areas of security that they're meant to focus on, 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:17.560 and that's issues from terrorism to foreign interference to protection 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:18.960 of defense capability. 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:21.000 But that is their broad role. Now. 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:24.080 Of course, being a security intelligence organization, they don't tell 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:26.280 us exactly what they do or exactly their structure, but 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:27.040 you kind of get. 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:29.920 The sense, I think that some of the kind of 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:33.520 terms that we hear in these conversations, you know, foreign spies, 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:37.720 intelligence operations, hostile nation states, it does all sound a 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:41.679 little bit like a spy movie to a lot of US. Burgers. 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:45.240 Didn't give too much away. He spoke about at least 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:49.760 three different countries plotting to physically harm Australia. He mentioned 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.480 another country or regime that had sought to harm individuals 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:57.640 who were critical of its government. Why wouldn't Azio name 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.760 those countries? What are the pros and cons of disclosing 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:01.920 those kinds of details. 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:05.960 I think that, of course, for any intelligence agency, keeping 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.360 details up their sleeve is beneficial for their ability to 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:12.960 be able to undertake their operations. Of course, there's also 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:17.640 that diplomatic element. It's not necessarily always a good thing 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:21.319 to publicly embarrass other countries. And we saw an example 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:24.640 of this last year actually with the significant fallout between 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:28.640 India and Canada, when the Prime Minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau, 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:34.440 talked about Canada's assessment that India had been sponsoring assassinations 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:36.640 within the c community in. 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:37.960 Canada of Canadian citizens. 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:40.880 Now, I don't want to unpack that detail, but that's 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:43.880 an example of when these things are exposed publicly, they 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:47.960 can result in a significant diplomatic fallout. The other thing too, 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:49.800 we need to be careful of when we talk about 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:53.160 issues of security is making sure that we don't impact 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:58.880 social cohesion. In Australia, sometimes calling out certain countries or 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:04.160 certain groups can unfortunately result in the persecution of people 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:06.839 or groups associated with that. You know, we can think 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:08.800 of plenty of examples that in our history. So there's 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:11.360 a bunch of things to balance there, and I think 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:14.320 that you know, azo is absolutely right not to be 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:17.600 declaring these countries, although I do know there was a 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:20.320 little bit of a warning in the threat assessment, Mike, 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:22.080 I just actually did say that if some of this 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:25.600 behavior continues, they may well release it publicly. Now I'm 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:30.160 paraphrasing dramatically, but it is a tool that they can use. 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:31.680 But I think for the moment, I think this is 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:32.760 the appropriate approach. 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:37.560 Will there be kind of behind closed doors conversations or 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:41.640 consequences for some of those unnamed countries. I mean, I 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:47.160 know at these times people always speculate about you know, Russia, China, Iran, etc. 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:50.560 Stuff going on behind closed doors that were not seeing. 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:52.520 Yeah, because certainly sounds like it. 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:55.600 So it was also clear from the speech that the 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:58.480 countries that have been found out that it has been 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:01.160 made clear to them, and in ways that's actually a 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:04.640 consequence enough for a country, because that's quite embarrassing to 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:08.280 know that your spies for want of a better term, 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:13.720 have been located or your you know, espionage activities, your 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:17.120 interference activities have been disclosed, because that shows that you 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:18.840 have vulnerabilities in your system. 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:19.880 So without that. 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:22.640 Being declared across you know, twenty four to seven media, 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:26.360 you've actually kind of embarrassed them internally anyway, which may 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:29.760 actually deter them from undertaking those actions because they realize 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:31.840 how strong our security apparatus can be. 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.800 It strikes me that there's so much in the unset 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:39.880 in terms of these kinds of conversations and reading between 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.719 the lines. What would be your advice, you know, as 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.240 a security expert for people that don't have that level 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:50.280 of expertise hearing terms like you know, foreign actors, abotage 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.520 foreign interference, what's your advice about how we should be 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:55.360 interpreting this language. 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:56.280 Look, I think the. 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:58.800 First thing is not to be alarmed. I think that 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.480 sometimes especially with you know, the significant changes even in 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.640 twenty twenty five on the international stage, whether we're talking 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:07.720 about Middle East, the war in Ukraine, or we're talking 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:10.680 about social cohesion in Australia, there can be a tendency 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:14.600 to catastrophize everything. That's the first thing not to do, right. 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:16.800 I think that a lot of attention needs to be 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:18.760 paid to what Mike Burgers is saying in terms of 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:22.319 the most significant and sober assessment. I think that Australians 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:24.720 need to be real with the fact that the world 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.800 is dramatically changing and that may impact our way of 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:31.240 life if we don't build the architecture all the capability 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:33.920 to buffer against that, but don't be alarmed. I think 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:36.880 the second bit is to be aware. You know, if 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:40.080 you are in some of the communities that are experiencing 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.040 some of this coercion from foreign actors, which has talked 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:45.600 about in the threat assessment, then that's something that you 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:48.840 should report, and there is a National security hotline. But 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:52.800 I think more broadly, just being more aware of how 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:55.920 our Australia is being impacted by some of these global 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:58.920 changes and what that might mean for our own security. 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:04.240 Think Australia is more or less safe than it was 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:05.120 a year ago. 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:09.520 Look, that's a really difficult question to answer, right because 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:12.520 in some ways it's difficult to kind of measure relative safety. 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:15.360 What I would say is when you think about what 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:19.200 are Australia's core interests, what are important to Australia, you know, 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.760 what are Australian values? What are the things we depend 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:23.760 on for the way of life that you know we 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.160 should be pretty proud to have. I mean, we are 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.920 a very lucky country. I think we often forget that. 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:33.520 That said, we are not immune to what is happening globally, 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:35.600 and we've seen that play out in terms of the 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:40.000 conflict in Galza and how that's played out in Australian communities, 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:43.680 whether that be Jewish communities or Palestinian communities. We're not 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.480 immune to these global trends. And as the world becomes 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:50.079 more unstable, which unfortunately is what is happening, there's a 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:51.400 lot of evidence to point to that. 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:52.439 Then we need to. 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.640 Be really kind of sure of ourselves as a community, 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:59.920 sure of believing a little bit I guess in our government, 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.600 in our security agencies who are trying to protect that 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:05.280 way of life that we get to have. Now, all 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:07.640 that sounds a little bit corny, but as a crux, 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:10.200 it is true. I mean, we are very lucky to 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:12.160 live in Australia and that's something that we need to 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:13.599 work hard to protect. 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:18.079 Speaking of, you know, protecting what we have here in Australia, 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.840 voters are of course heading to the polls this year. 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:26.360 We know ASIO has raised some flags about election interference. 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:29.960 What are the main concerns there and how can we 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:30.920 get around them? 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:33.320 Yeah, Look, this was a key theme in the the 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:36.360 assessment report because a lot of democracies as have gone 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:38.720 through elections and obviously twenty twenty four was a huge 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.920 election year with you know, elections in India, elections, in US, 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.160 elections in the UK. We have seen this trend of 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:48.400 other countries and there are examples for example of Russia 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:52.040 doing this of trying to interfere with the outcome. How 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:56.680 do they do that through misinformation and through disinformation by 0:14:56.840 --> 0:14:59.040 you know, I mean to be quite frank about it, 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:03.440 by spreading lies or by twisting truths. And Azio have 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:06.080 really highlighted that something that they are going to watching 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:08.440 for this election in terms of what can the average 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:10.960 Australian do well. Part of it is just verifying. I mean, 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.000 when you receive information, think about what is the source 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.680 you're receiving that from. If it's someone who you've never 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:20.960 heard of on Twitter, who seems to have no details 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:25.480 and about two followers, then it's probably not necessarily reliable, right, 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:28.000 So just think about the source that you're getting it 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:30.960 from and try and verify that, especially for something who's 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:33.520 going to influence your thinking in the lead up to 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:34.040 the election. 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:37.480 Jennifer, Before we wrap up, I just want to zoom 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:40.440 out a little bit. This is the sixth annual address 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:44.160 that we've gotten from ASIO director Mark Burgers, and you know, 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:48.520 every year there are obviously certain priorities, but also you 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.400 know a lot of information that is kept away from 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:54.800 the public and for the reasons that you've explained. But 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:58.040 do you think that this information that we do get 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:03.120 is effective? Is this important kind of moment annually for 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:04.160 national security? 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:06.480 Look? I do think it's an important moment. 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:08.320 I mean, there has been some criticism that if you're 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:09.800 not going to tell us all the details, don't tell 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.280 us anything. But I think if we step back and say, 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.000 what is the point of this, right, the point of 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:17.560 this is to have a degree of transparency in our 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.280 security agencies, to make sure we have an informed public 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.840 that understands what is going on. And the trends are 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:26.360 not good. And again I said, don't be alarmist and 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:28.280 don't catastrophized, but they're not good. 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:30.200 I mean, you know, I go back to those terms 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:30.960 I've used before. 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.560 The most significant and sober assessment that has been delivered, 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:37.760 certainly in Mike Burgess's tenure so the last six years, 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.680 that's something that we should stand up and pay attention to. 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:43.160 So I think it is a really important. 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:44.600 Part of our society and again going back to that 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:47.520 lucky country, but not a lot of countries actually get 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:50.240 that degree of transparency and I think that's a really 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:53.640 important part of Australia, an important part of our democracy. 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:57.080 Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.240 Thanks so much, Emma, that's all we have time for 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:04.480 on today's episode. Such a fascinating chat. Thank you for listening, 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:08.400 and thanks to security expert Jennifer Parker for joining us. Well, 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:11.600 be back later today with your afternoon headlines, but until then, 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:16.680 have a great day. 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:19.479 My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:24.480 bunjelung Caalcutin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:26.720 that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.280 Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:33.240 Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:36.040 first peoples of these countries, both past and present.