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Speaker 1: Well, a new report by the Northern Territory Independent Commissioner

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Speaker 1: against Corruption has been revealed. The report identifies serious and

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Speaker 1: systemic improper conduct risks in the Territory government's recruitment and

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Speaker 1: disciplinary frameworks. It also contains findings that the former Department

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Speaker 1: of Health Site and Security Manager Ashley Brown engaged in

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Speaker 1: corrupt conduct when he lied about his qualifications and falsified

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Speaker 1: certificates of aboriginality in order to win a Northern Territory

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Speaker 1: Government position advertised under a special measures recruitment and selection plan.

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Speaker 1: To talk more about this explosive new report is the

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory Independent Commissioner against Corruption. Ken Fleming, Ken, good morning,

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Speaker 1: Good morning Ken. As far as I can see, this

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Speaker 1: report identifies two key areas, one being the findings into

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Speaker 1: Ashley Brown and the other being the subsequent findings into

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Speaker 1: recruitment and disciplinary frameworks within the Northern Territory Government. First

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Speaker 1: of all, can you talk us through the report and

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Speaker 1: the fire into Ashley Brown.

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Speaker 2: Two things One was to forge fabricate a certificate of

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Speaker 2: aboriginality and the other was to put in a resumey

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Speaker 2: which itself contained a number of fraudulent aspects.

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Speaker 1: Are you able to go into further details of what

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Speaker 1: those fraudulent aspects were.

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Speaker 2: First, in respect of the certificate of aboriginality, he has

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Speaker 2: claimed since nineteen ninety three he has identified as aboriginal

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Speaker 2: as a result of something his grandmother told him, and

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Speaker 2: since that day he has provided on numerous numerous occasions

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Speaker 2: a statutory declaration as to that fact. However, when he

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Speaker 2: was required under the Special Measures program to provide a

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Speaker 2: certificate of aboriginality, he was unable to find any aboriginal

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Speaker 2: counsel or any aboriginal group who would certify his aboriginality,

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Speaker 2: so he simply forged two certificates and provided those the second.

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Speaker 2: In respect of his qualifications, he said, for example, now

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Speaker 2: remembering that this is at the hospital for a security

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Speaker 2: and side manager position, he claimed he had a Bachelor

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Speaker 2: of Nursing. You can see the relevance of that at

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Speaker 2: a hospital. He claimed, He's got a certificate for in

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Speaker 2: security risk management. You can see how that would be

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Speaker 2: relevant to a security inside manager. He might have commenced

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Speaker 2: a Bachelor of Nursing degree at some point in time

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Speaker 2: in Queensland a long time ago, but he has never

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Speaker 2: finished that. In addition to that he has never had

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Speaker 2: a certificate for in security risk management. A couple of

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Speaker 2: other things. He said that he had had experience as

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Speaker 2: a senior sergeant with the Queensland Police. He watered that

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Speaker 2: down to say that he had a very short time

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Speaker 2: as a senior sergeant with police in Queensland. Then he

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Speaker 2: said he had had experience as the State Coordinator for

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Speaker 2: Drug and Alcohol Unit in Queensland Police and that was

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Speaker 2: a fabrication as well.

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Speaker 1: Ken, I guess one of the big questions here is

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Speaker 1: were reference checks done.

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Speaker 2: It was as a result of questions that were raised

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Speaker 2: during the recruitment process that the matter came to life. Yes,

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Speaker 2: reference checks were done, but certificates of aboriginality are somewhat

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Speaker 2: more difficult to check. And as a result of one

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Speaker 2: certificate being shown which didn't have the stamp of the

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Speaker 2: Aboriginal Council on it, it was rejected. Then two certificates

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Speaker 2: turned up which were it seems appropriate an Aboriginal advisors said, well,

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Speaker 2: they comply with the requirements. However, there was a red

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Speaker 2: flag raised at that point and the matter was referred

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Speaker 2: to Ken.

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Speaker 1: Reading the report, it sounds like a lot of work

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Speaker 1: went into the first and the second attempt to falsify

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Speaker 1: that document.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of work did go into it. In fact,

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Speaker 2: he even had a stamp ordered over the internet that

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Speaker 2: he could apply what appeared to be a stamp of

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Speaker 2: an aboriginal group onto the document, and he had to

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Speaker 2: go creating an appropriate certificate of aboriginality.

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Speaker 1: Ken Section forty of the report says the issue of

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Speaker 1: defining aboriginality is complex, as highlighted by merkle J in

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Speaker 1: Shaw versus Wolf and Ores, nineteen ninety eight FCA. Twenty.

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Speaker 1: In the fourth last paragraph of that judgment, it says

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Speaker 1: aboriginality as such is not capable of any single or

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Speaker 1: satisfactory definition. Is the issue here the complexities of defining aboriginality?

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Speaker 1: Or was it with the falsifying the documents of claiming

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Speaker 1: that no.

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Speaker 2: People have reached agreement on how aboriginality should be defined.

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Speaker 2: For the purposes of the special measures here in the

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Speaker 2: Northern Territory, we included that to show that it's not

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Speaker 2: capable of a single definition, however, there must be some

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Speaker 2: criterion necessary. And in the Northern Territory, after taking advice

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Speaker 2: from Aboriginal Advisory Group, they introduced the Certificate of Aboriginality

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Speaker 2: to ensure that the jobs went where they were meant

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Speaker 2: to go to Aboriginal people. And I should say it's

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Speaker 2: been a very successful program.

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Speaker 1: Ken Is Ashley Brown still employed in that position?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: What has Ashley Brown's behavior been like during the investigation?

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Speaker 1: Has he been willing to cooperate?

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Speaker 2: Not initially but subsequently?

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Speaker 1: What happens next for him? Will this matter be referred

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Speaker 1: to the Director of Public Prosecutions.

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Speaker 2: We're not referring it to the Director of Public Prosecutions,

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Speaker 2: but the facts are out there and if if they

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Speaker 2: or the police choose to do something further, that's the

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Speaker 2: matter for them. We are not a prosecuting authority. We

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Speaker 2: are a fact finding authority. So we find the facts,

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Speaker 2: we lay them out, we put them into a report.

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Speaker 2: The report obviously goes to people who have the interest

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Speaker 2: in implementing the report, for example, the Commissioner for Public

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Speaker 2: Employment and in this case, the Chief Executive of Health.

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Speaker 2: And I can say that both of them are very

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Speaker 2: conscientious about their processes, and both of them work hard

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Speaker 2: to ensure that their processes are improving constantly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd love to be able to talk a bit

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Speaker 1: more about that if we can look at some of

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Speaker 1: the findings into what's been described the serious and systemic

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Speaker 1: improper conduct risks in the Territory Government's recruitment and disciplinary frameworks.

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Speaker 1: Now this was flagged in the report. Are you able

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Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about more about what they

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Speaker 1: are and just how serious they are.

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Speaker 2: We can't find a consistent approach to the checking of

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Speaker 2: rasuremes and the checking of certificates of aboriginality. Recruitment is

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Speaker 2: done by a panel who assess the most appropriate person,

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Speaker 2: and that panel must be completely free and have the

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Speaker 2: time to be able to check rasure mays and to

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Speaker 2: check certificates of aboriginality. Now that's a significant imposition on

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Speaker 2: that process. But the issues are serious enough to look

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Speaker 2: hard to see how that can be done in the

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Speaker 2: most efficient way.

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Speaker 1: Is it a case that the recruitment process in some

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Speaker 1: cases then is being rushed.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't think they're being rushed. I think that

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Speaker 2: there's just not enough thought put into them from time

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Speaker 2: to time. Look, but let me say, in the main,

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Speaker 2: the recruitment processes work very well, but there are these

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Speaker 2: risks that need to be ruled out, and that's our

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Speaker 2: concern We're a body who looks at risks of improper

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Speaker 2: conduct and we're highlighting this for others who have a

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Speaker 2: better understanding then of the process from here, how that

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Speaker 2: can be put into place effectively and efficiently.

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Speaker 1: Is it possible that there other people such as Ashley

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Speaker 1: Brown employed in the public sector right now who could

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Speaker 1: have engaged in this kind of behavior identified in the report.

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Speaker 2: It's distinctly possible.

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Speaker 1: Is that a concern to you and to those in

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Speaker 1: the public sector that you've spoken to?

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Speaker 2: Of course, that's why we've made the recommendations that we have.

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Speaker 2: We are accumulating a body of work so we have

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Speaker 2: a picture of what's going on, and recruitment is one

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Speaker 2: of the significant areas where people attempt to cut corners

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Speaker 2: and by improper conduct obtain employment. There's one aspect to this.

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Speaker 2: Mister Brown has been an employment in the Northern Territory

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Speaker 2: Public Service previously. Now, one of the things that we've

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Speaker 2: found and is troubling is that if somebody in employment

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Speaker 2: and against whom a disciplinary proceeding has been commenced, they

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Speaker 2: can resign and that disciplinary proceeding won't go beyond there

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Speaker 2: and no notation will ever be made on that person's

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Speaker 2: file because rightly they haven't had natural justice. However, the

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Speaker 2: gap is that that person can bob up a year

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Speaker 2: later and get another job in the public service that

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Speaker 2: we know of instances of that happening. So there is

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Speaker 2: no visibility in respect of a person against whom disciplinary

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Speaker 2: proceedings have been commenced but never completed. Now there are

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Speaker 2: complications in there because the person must be able to

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Speaker 2: receive natural justice so that a proceeding is completed, and

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Speaker 2: that's not an easy one to solve, but I've made

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Speaker 2: a suggestion on how that might be done by amending

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Speaker 2: the Act a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Ken. Is this just an issue in the public sector

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Speaker 1: or do you think it could be more widespread across

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Speaker 1: the private sector as well.

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Speaker 2: I don't have enough information about the private sector, but

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Speaker 2: the the temptation to have a little bit of fraud

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Speaker 2: in your rasure may is a very common theme, just

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Speaker 2: to beef the rasure may up a little bit just

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Speaker 2: with a little bit of laying. That's a very common

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Speaker 2: thing and we have to all be very vigilant about that,

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Speaker 2: whether we're in public service or private service.

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Speaker 1: I think that is a really good point you make there,

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Speaker 1: is that I'm sure, many people have been guilty of

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Speaker 1: doing that before, but I mean ultimately, in this situation,

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Speaker 1: as your report alludes to, it's ended up in the

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Speaker 1: findings of what you've described as corrupt conduct.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and it is corrupt conduct very clearly and deliberately

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Speaker 2: under the Act. And while this is just one instance,

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Speaker 2: it's a vehicle for us to be able to make

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Speaker 2: a number of very substantial recommendations which we believe that

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Speaker 2: will give the process of recruitment greater integrity.

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Speaker 1: What's been the response from those in charge of the

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Speaker 1: recruitment process in the public sector? Have they seen this

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Speaker 1: report and then are they willing to adapt some of

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Speaker 1: those recommendations that you've put forward.

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Speaker 2: We don't make a recommendation such as we have had

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Speaker 2: if it's an impossibility, and we often consult with the

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Speaker 2: stakeholders and we conclude this. They did see the report

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Speaker 2: late yesterday, and I am sure that we will have

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Speaker 2: further conversations with them about it, remembering that we're the

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Speaker 2: experts in uncovering the bad conduct and they're the experts

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Speaker 2: in implementing the improvements in the system.

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Speaker 1: Just finally, Ken, what is your message to anyone to

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Speaker 1: those in charge of the recruitment process in the public

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Speaker 1: sector and I guess those that are currently applying for

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Speaker 1: jobs in the public sector.

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Speaker 2: To those applying, be truthful in both Eurasia, may and

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Speaker 2: any other documentation you put in, including a certificate of

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Speaker 2: average and other things. To those who are recruiting, be

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Speaker 2: vigilant and take the extra step of attempting to verify

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Speaker 2: the qualifications that people claim they have.

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Speaker 1: The Northern Territory Independent Commissioner against Corruption Ken Fleming, will

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Speaker 1: leave it there. Thank you so much for your time

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Speaker 1: this morning.

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Speaker 2: Thank you