1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: As a listener of how I work. 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 2: You've hopefully picked up a few tips on this show 3 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 2: to help you work better? 4 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: But do you want more? 5 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 2: And maybe in a book form, because let's face it, 6 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 2: books are the most awesome thing on the planet. Well, 7 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 2: now you can. In my new book, time Wise, I 8 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 2: uncover a wealth of proven strategies that anyone can use 9 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 2: to improve their productivity, work, and lifestyle. Time Wise brings 10 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 2: together all of the gems that I've learned from conversations 11 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 2: with the world's greatest thinkers, including Adam Grant, Dan Pink, 12 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 2: Mia Friedman, and Turia. 13 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 1: Pitt and many many others. Time Wise is launching on. 14 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 2: July five, but you can pre order it now from 15 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 2: Amantha dot com. And if you pre order time Wise, 16 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 2: I have a couple of bonuses for you. First, you'll 17 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 2: receive an ebook that details my top twenty favorite apps 18 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: and software for being time wise with email, calendar, passwords, reading, 19 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 2: cooking ideas, and more. You will also get a complementary 20 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: spot in a webinar that I'm running on June twenty nine, 21 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 2: where I will be sharing the tactics from time Wise 22 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 2: that I use most often, and also some bonus ones 23 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 2: that are not in the book that I use and love. 24 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 2: Hop onto Amantha dot com to pre order. Now, how 25 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,639 Speaker 2: often do you think about trust and what it really means? 26 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 2: Do you trust your boss, your colleagues, or the company 27 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 2: that you work for? And how would your day unfold 28 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 2: if that trust wasn't there, or if you didn't have 29 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 2: the trust of your customers or your clients. Trust is 30 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 2: something that Francis Fry sees as the foundation of everything. 31 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 2: I was lucky enough to be in Vancouver in twenty 32 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: nineteen to see Francis deliver her now famous Ted talk 33 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 2: on bringing trust back into Uber and it was a 34 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,919 Speaker 2: game changer for me. Francis is a Harvard Business School 35 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 2: professor and together with Anne Morris, has written several best 36 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 2: selling books about trust and leadership. So how do these 37 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 2: world authorities on trust go about building it into their 38 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 2: own day to day lives. 39 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: My name is doctor amanthe Immer. 40 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,519 Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science 41 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 2: consultancy Inventium. And this is how I work, a show 42 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 2: about how to help. 43 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: You do your best work. 44 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: So Frances and Ann are not only partners at work, 45 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: they are also partners in life. And every year they 46 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 2: go through an annual New Year's reflection process, and I 47 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 2: wanted to know what it looked like. 48 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 3: So we and when I say we, I mean I 49 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 3: look for any excuse for group reflection, which is my 50 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 3: idea of a good time, and it may not be 51 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 3: shared by my better half. So New Year's is such 52 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 3: a powerful moment for all the obvious reasons, but Monday 53 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 3: can also be a time for reflection. So I do 54 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 3: try to drag you, Francis into these conversations more frequently 55 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 3: than just the turn of the year. But it is 56 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 3: what we end up doing, and it has become a 57 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 3: nice ritual that involves, like you know, swing by a 58 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 3: local pub. But it is to just free form reflect 59 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 3: on what is it that we want to achieve in 60 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 3: the coming year. 61 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 4: And it's what's beautiful about it is that it has 62 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 4: no rear view mirror. There is no accountability for the 63 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 4: last year. It is only what is our ambition and 64 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 4: our greatest hopes for the upcoming year, and. 65 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: The questions like is there a structure that guides you 66 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: in doing that forward planning? 67 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 3: Quite importantly, there's no. There's no shared structure. So usually 68 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 3: each year we you know, as you're writing as structure 69 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 3: emerges for each of us, but there's no overlap in 70 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 3: the structure, and then we sort out. 71 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 4: On righte is parallel play. So we'll sit down, we'll 72 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 4: write at the same time, and then whichever one of 73 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 4: us has moved to go first will go first and 74 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 4: narrate the list. 75 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 3: And that's a really important part of the process is 76 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 3: then to describe it to each other. Yeah, and in 77 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 3: the description we're also allowed and encouraged to ask each 78 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 3: other questions, clarifying questions, contextual questions. That's definitely part of 79 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 3: it too. 80 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 2: So is it more like a story or a narrative 81 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 2: as opposed to hear is a list of things for 82 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 2: the ya? 83 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 4: Yes it is. It is, But it's a comprehensive narrative 84 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 4: because it will cover, you know, in years, it covers health, wealth, family, ambition, 85 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 4: you know, like big small, want to go out for walks? 86 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 4: More like it can be anything on it, but the 87 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 4: context is very important. To Anne. Left to my own, 88 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 4: I could have a crisp list, but within no list 89 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 4: is crisp. 90 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 3: Francis has never forgiven me for springing on her the 91 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 3: night before that. I thought we should write our own 92 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 3: vows for our wedding the morning of. I keep trying 93 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 3: to give myself more lead time in the retail, just 94 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 3: willing in the retelling of the story. Was it the 95 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 3: morning of? 96 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 4: It might have been the morning the pen you had 97 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 4: just bought and a notebook you had just bought, and 98 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 4: I was looking for the hotel pen and the hotel 99 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 4: scrap of paper. I felt under enormous pressure, which you delivered. 100 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 3: I rose to delivered. Yes, you wrote it was the 101 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 3: first real test of our marriage. Four minutes in. 102 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 2: Wow, that is such high pressure. I feel like I 103 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: took weeks to refine mine. But I'm divorced. So you know, 104 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 2: you guys are winning on that front. So now we're 105 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 2: in May. So we're five months after you've gone through 106 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 2: this knees planning session. How is that narrative evolving into 107 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 2: the year, Like is it matching closely? 108 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: What are the things that are aligned and what do 109 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: you do with the things that are not? 110 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 3: So it is a vehicle to have a very direct 111 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 3: conversation around what is important to each of us. And 112 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,239 Speaker 3: we get to say in this ritual, what is important 113 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 3: to you? What is important to me? 114 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: Is right? 115 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 3: That is that is the car In response, I think 116 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 3: where it shows up six months later is I have 117 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 3: no idea what I wrote and I've never revisited it. Francis, 118 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 3: I think that's probably true for you as well. 119 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 4: Yes it's true. 120 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,799 Speaker 3: But we have had variations on that shorter variations. Let's 121 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 3: ritualize variations on that conversation subsequently as new information presents itself. 122 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 3: And I think that to me, that's the value of 123 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 3: keeping that muscle warm. And what happens on January first 124 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 3: is a recommitment to use the muscle and then I 125 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,239 Speaker 3: think we probably have some version of that conversation monthly 126 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 3: for maybe more. But what is important to you, know, 127 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 3: and it is it is often that is the frame 128 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 3: of this is what has value to me now, and 129 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 3: this is the new insight that I have into it. 130 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 3: And for instance, is the first person I want to 131 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 3: share that with. Obviously she's my wife, but I think 132 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 3: also because that's a dialogue we've been having now for sixteen. 133 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 2: Years, Francis, a lot of people might have come across 134 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: you from your work around trust, and I would love 135 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 2: to know if you, when you're first meeting someone that 136 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 2: you have to build trust with, how do you go 137 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 2: about doing that? 138 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I am, and I'm I really like to 139 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 4: build trust quickly. It's much easier for me to build 140 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 4: it quickly if it's doing it over time. I'm not 141 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 4: very good at the slow gear. So I'm either on 142 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 4: or off or my two preferred states. And so I 143 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 4: like to reveal the real me. So I'm just I 144 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 4: just open the door, you know, in a disarming way, 145 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 4: sharing something about how I'm doing or what I'm thinking about. 146 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: Like what's an example of that? 147 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I will. I can't remember the last time 148 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 4: I met someone who I didn't have a story about 149 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 4: Anne or my family in it. So I am. I 150 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 4: am more personal about my family life than almost any 151 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 4: other person. 152 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 3: I know. 153 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 4: It comes up in every conversation, and usually you have 154 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 4: to know people to do it, not me. I start 155 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 4: with it. It also calms me down. It puts me 156 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 4: in a great mood to do it, So I think 157 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 4: that's the It's usually that or if i'm you know, 158 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 4: if I've just gone through something, and usually you will. 159 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 4: I would tell the next person I speak to about that, 160 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 4: like I'm a very. 161 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 3: And you confess. 162 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 4: So I grew up in a very strongly Catholic family. 163 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 4: Confession was a very big part of it, and I 164 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:35,199 Speaker 4: have kept that part of Catholicism. I confess everything to anyone, 165 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 4: and so it's to the next person I talk to. 166 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 4: That's who I'm doing it. So that's actually a crisper 167 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,839 Speaker 4: way of doing it. That takes care of the authenticity 168 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 4: part of trust. If there's three parts to it, authenticity, logic, 169 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 4: and empathy. I'm keenly aware of the other person in 170 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 4: the conversation, and I'm always thinking, how can I be 171 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 4: of service to you? Like what, what are what? What's 172 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 4: the underlying way that I can be helpful? And and 173 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 4: that's the empathy part. And then my brain, I can't 174 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 4: shut off the pattern seeking parts of it and the making, 175 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 4: the sense making, and that's the logic. So it comes 176 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 4: quite naturally to me when it's a stranger or a 177 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 4: new person, particularly if I'm not the one who's asking 178 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 4: for something. I'm so clumsy when I'm asking for something. 179 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 4: But when some were meeting, I just quickly find out 180 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 4: how I can be helpful to them, And that's a 181 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 4: really helpful orientation for me. 182 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 2: When you were first brought into Uber to help rebuild trust? 183 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 2: Is that an accurate way? It's sort of a statement, 184 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 2: maybe what were some of the very first things that 185 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 2: you did to help that process. 186 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 4: One is by talking about it in a way that 187 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 4: didn't make it feel like it was a third rail, right, 188 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 4: So you know, I remember the first senior meeting I 189 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 4: was in with the ce I only overlapped with the 190 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 4: CEO for two weeks, but I was in a meeting 191 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 4: with the CEO and the rest of his direct reports. 192 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 4: And in the meeting, people were texting in the meeting 193 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 4: A number one, B number two. They were texting each 194 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 4: other in the meeting about what other people were saying. 195 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 4: Now that had just become common nature. So there was like, 196 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 4: so everyone was excluding, everyone was excluded. Now you could 197 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 4: have had it, but it was there was no empathy 198 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 4: in the room, even though the people actually liked one another. 199 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 4: There was the structure. So it was just like having 200 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 4: you know, when you're new to a place, you get 201 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 4: to put on the glasses where you see what's you know, interesting, 202 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 4: And it was willing to share my new glasses with 203 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 4: those that were already there because they no longer realized it. 204 00:11:59,200 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: And then when I. 205 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 4: Described in the way I just described it to you. 206 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 3: They were like, I love that example, interesting habit. I 207 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 3: love that example of for instances, because what we'll often 208 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 3: say when we work with people on empathy as shorthand 209 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 3: is to be present in the presence of others. And 210 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 3: so that moment, first of all, everyone is distracted by 211 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 3: their devices. Everyone is distracted by their devices, which is 212 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 3: the number one empathy killer in the world right now, 213 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 3: and we're all guilty of it. But also the erosion 214 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 3: of safety in the fact that there's a conversation happening 215 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 3: about everyone in the room at the same time, and 216 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 3: so we have no choice but to be self distracted 217 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 3: in that moment because we have to protect ourselves. And 218 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 3: so unraveling that scene, which I know you did right 219 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 3: away in your work there, but unraveling that scene which 220 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 3: is happening, by the way, first of all all over Valley, 221 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 3: but in many organizations that kind of behavior has become 222 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 3: totally normalized, and it's it. 223 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 4: The amount that it holds the team back is mind boggling. 224 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 4: So people are like, oh, yes, we do that. I'm 225 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 4: like you, so, oh yes, we underperform by orders of magnitude, 226 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 4: Like that's what that's what we're acknowledging. So we can 227 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 4: choose to continue to underperform or we can make a 228 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 4: small and kind adjustment. 229 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: So what happened when you brought that to their attention. 230 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 4: Oh, at first they did just what you did, right, 231 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 4: They they laugh at it. But it's then it's important 232 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 4: to put processes in place. So I was one of 233 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 4: the things that Travis asked me to do is to 234 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 4: facilitate the senior team, and so I run the meetings. 235 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 4: So we just in the beginning, we just had to 236 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 4: say all technology gets put over there. So we just 237 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 4: had over in the couch area in the table area, 238 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,839 Speaker 4: and it totally freaked people out. And I was like, 239 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 4: we just have to learn how to be free of 240 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 4: it because the tethers are too tight. And then we 241 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 4: would tell any of the assistance if you have to 242 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 4: come in and get someone because people were And then 243 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 4: over time people could be like, well, I really want 244 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 4: to take notes on my computer. Okay, well we have 245 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 4: to be away from it for a while, so we 246 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 4: have paper and pens and then you could slowly bring 247 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 4: it back in. But it needed to be a hard 248 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 4: a hard cut in the beginning, just to feel what 249 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 4: it was like. And I have to tell you it. Also, 250 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 4: the meetings became better. They went we went through materials 251 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 4: faster and deeper as a result, because when you're interacting 252 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 4: with only distracted people and only people who are feeling unsafe, 253 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 4: that takes forever and you hardly get anywhere. So it 254 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 4: really improved speed and quality quite monumentally. 255 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 2: And you mentioned that devices one of the biggest issues 256 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 2: we have around building empathy. How how do you bring 257 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 2: that insight into your in line lives. 258 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. These devices are so seductive 259 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 3: and they are meant to be and so I think 260 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 3: putting up strict boundaries. For me, putting up strict boundaries 261 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 3: is the only way to go. So I never bring 262 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 3: it into our bedroom. I never bring it onto the 263 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 3: floor where I'm trying to sleep. Uh, you know meals. 264 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 3: You know, all devices have to be away from the 265 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 3: table for me to be present. I think I've removed 266 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 3: apps from my phone that are more distracting. I just 267 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 3: think that the it's the we are. I am in 268 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 3: the phase of a relationship with my devices where prohibition 269 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 3: is the only thing that is working right now. But 270 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 3: other people are at a healthier place with. 271 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 4: Them and and for me, I so I don't use 272 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 4: my devices very often at all. So I'm never on 273 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 4: zoom and on something else. I'm always there. I check 274 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 4: my email at most two times a day, but probably 275 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 4: once every other day is a more natural rhythm. So 276 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 4: and I learned that lesson from the late Clay Christiansen, 277 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 4: when I once asked him, how are you so much 278 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 4: more productive than everyone else? And he said, I check 279 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 4: email twice a day, so I'm not distracted by it. 280 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 4: And then I made the maybe like five years ago, 281 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 4: I made the parallel to consumption of news and the 282 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 4: intra day consumption of news. I haven't seen that be 283 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 4: helpful to anyone, and so I no longer do intra 284 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 4: day consumption of news. I would for a while I 285 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 4: had to go cold turkey so and would just narrate 286 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 4: whatever it was important. 287 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 3: The capital is being attacked Francis by. 288 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 4: Our own people, and now I can check in. But 289 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 4: I don't check the news every day. I certainly don't 290 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 4: do it intraday. Those were that's for me. I've never 291 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 4: been very late to the social media landscape, and so 292 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 4: I don't have any kind of They're designed to be addictive, 293 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 4: but I've never gotten that far up the participation curve 294 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 4: for that to be an issue. But I like to 295 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 4: have total blockout of those things so that I can 296 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 4: focus on either my work, the television program I want 297 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 4: to watch. Like I consume a lot of alternate things 298 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 4: to spark to spark my thinking. But it's almost never. 299 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 4: It's almost never the traditional way of doing it. And 300 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 4: you'd think that I was hard to get in contact with. 301 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 4: I'm not that hard. It turns out we're not checking 302 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 4: email more than once a day because we need to 303 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 4: be in people need to be in contact with us. 304 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 4: It's something much deeper than that, because I'm plenty easy 305 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 4: to be in contact with. 306 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 3: No, we're just trying to find out am I loved 307 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 3: or am I not loved? What about now? I am 308 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 3: I love? 309 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 4: Now? I go downstairs and ask my wife, you. 310 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 3: Have a wonder. It's been super provocative in the best 311 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 3: sense for me to watch you set these boundaries. I'm 312 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 3: on the other end of the spectrum. I'm not as 313 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 3: far gone as some of the people, some of our 314 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 3: loved ones. But but I think you're you have you 315 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 3: have said an excellent and challenging model for me. I 316 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 3: was definitely overconfident in my multitasking. I thought it did 317 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 3: not come at a price. And even small experiments in 318 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 3: scaling that back had pretty pretty profound payoffs. And so 319 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 3: that that's what has spurred me to come closer to 320 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 3: the light where I see you standing. 321 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 4: I'm as productive as I'll ever be because I've trimmed 322 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 4: out all of the multitasking. So this is it. 323 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: It doesn't get any to go in. So and what 324 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: do you do with your emailment? 325 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 2: Because that it's exactly that. It's like checking to say, 326 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 2: does anyone love me right? 327 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 3: Now? 328 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 2: Right? 329 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 3: And then do the right people love me right? If 330 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 3: you get certain, if you hit scale, then you got 331 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 3: to go then you got to go to quality. It's 332 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 3: never ending. So I mean, you know what is the 333 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 3: structural solution? That's hard work? You know, that's that is 334 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 3: the hard work around. Why am I seeking external affirmation 335 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 3: which the world has turned into all of these incredible devices. 336 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 3: But I think if you if you don't want to do, 337 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 3: if you don't want to work that hard, then you're 338 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 3: then you're in setting up setting up boundaries and running 339 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 3: experiments on. 340 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 4: How you're great at running the experiments and. 341 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 3: Learning, like let's try like how does it feel to 342 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 3: take Twitter off my phone? That feels? That feels good? 343 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 3: That feels good. Uh And and and that's I mean 344 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 3: we in the work that we do with individuals and organizations, 345 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 3: a lot of it is encouraging people to just run 346 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 3: experiments on their lives, on their leadership, on their ways 347 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 3: of working, you know, just to bring that kind of 348 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 3: can do, joyful, curious energy to all aspects of their lives. 349 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 3: And our relationships with our device. For some of us, 350 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 3: it's the most devoted, meaningful relationship that we have right now. 351 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 3: We're sleeping with our devices, we're caressing them, we're checking 352 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 3: in with them constantly, and I think that, you know, 353 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 3: there's a lot of great experimentation that can be done 354 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 3: around that relationship. 355 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 2: So, and what are a couple of the most powerful 356 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 2: experiments that you've run in your own life in racing times? 357 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 3: Oh beyond devices anything. 358 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, this is such a good question for 359 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 4: Antie does them every week? 360 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 2: Well? 361 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 3: So, yeah, I don't know that we have the amount 362 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 3: of time to have this conversation fully. But one sandbox 363 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 3: that has made a big difference in my life is 364 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 3: to be very deliberate about my own bioorhythms. So when 365 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 3: I do different kinds of work and now and now 366 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 3: people just refer We should give them different names, but 367 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 3: people just refer to my morning brain and my afternoon brain. 368 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 3: It's five point thirty in the afternoon right now, I've 369 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 3: been up for a good like thirteen plus hour. We're 370 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 3: getting close to my bedtime. That anything coherent is coming 371 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 3: out of my mouth that could be a benefit to 372 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 3: your listeners is astonishing. But I did learn. I started 373 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 3: to be very protective of the morning. I started to 374 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 3: be very deliberate about what were the what was the 375 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 3: kind of work I was doing in the morning, what 376 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 3: was the kind of work I was going to do 377 00:21:54,000 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 3: in the afternoon, And I redesigned my schedule around that idea. Yeah, 378 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 3: and it was really transformational. 379 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 4: So people all over the world are trying to reserve 380 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 4: morning brain slots for Ann. I think it's the most beautiful, 381 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 4: intense It's like breath taking otherworldly. You can only get 382 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 4: it from plank Am plank Am, and it's usually like 383 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 4: four thirty to six thirty am like those And so 384 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 4: that's precious. You got to reserve ahead. 385 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 3: Right, and there are some scarcity dynamics at work here. 386 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 3: But then the next experiment is can I extend that 387 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 3: that morning brain slot and what will it take and 388 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 3: you know, when when should I exercise? What should I 389 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 3: be eating? When should I go to bed? You know, 390 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 3: and with these things, you know, the motivation to kind 391 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 3: of do those things well when it's general for me 392 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 3: was not that helpful, like oh, be a more righteous person, 393 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 3: go on this walk, not helpful, but extend that like 394 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 3: a few hours and maybe even beyond like that, that 395 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 3: was super motivating. And so things like meditation, timing of exercise, 396 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 3: you know, sleep hygiene, and you know, the whole category 397 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 3: of sleep hygiene. One of the experiments Francis and I 398 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 3: started running was I'm going to not get her name, 399 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 3: but there's a wonderful reporter from ABC who just published 400 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 3: a book on sleep. One of the recommendations she makes 401 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 3: in her book is, when you're going to bed at night, 402 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 3: before you fall asleep, write down every problem you have, 403 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 3: anything that and the idea is anything that you would 404 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 3: possibly be thinking about were you to wake up in 405 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 3: the middle of the night. But she really pushes you 406 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 3: to go deep, like any grocery, like anything, write it 407 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 3: all down on like one half of a page, and 408 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 3: on the other app put the next thing you are 409 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 3: going to do an immediate next step you're going to 410 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 3: take on every single one of these problems, and. 411 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 4: You don't take those steps, but you have to write 412 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 4: down the first step, and then that calms your brain down. 413 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 4: And so this has free it's. 414 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 3: I'm gonna put I'm gonna I'm gonna tighten that a 415 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 3: little bit because this is the intuition. It trains your 416 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 3: brain that you solve problems in the daytime because what 417 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 3: and I was getting really stuck on this. I would 418 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 3: wake up after a couple hours of sleep, my brain 419 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 3: would be firing and I would try to start solving problems, 420 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 3: and then my brain started to think that's when I 421 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 3: solve problems, which is, you know, at two in the morning. 422 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 3: And this ritual and her data is really fun because 423 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 3: people think, oh, I'm going to now have to do 424 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 3: this for the rest of my life. She said it 425 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 3: took her two or three weeks of doing this and 426 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 3: her brain was retrained. So we are. This is an 427 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 3: experiment that Francis and I are in the middle of 428 00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 3: right now. I think we're maybe four or five days 429 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 3: into it. 430 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 4: And not let anyone think that I run experiments. I don't, 431 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 4: so I don't think about exercise dieting, Like, I don't 432 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 4: think about any of that stuff. But what I do 433 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 4: is I let Anne amortize the great things she learned, 434 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 4: and so once she cycles through, she'll share with me 435 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 4: the one to try. I don't have to read the book. 436 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 4: She just tells me the thing, and I happily do it. 437 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 4: So I'm not an experimenter. I'm a borrower of best practices. 438 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: I think that sends very wise Francis. 439 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 2: Now, and you do a lot of work with leaders 440 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 2: and coaching leaders, I'd love to know what what are 441 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 2: the very first questions that you're asking. 442 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 1: A leader to get a feel for what you're working with. 443 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 3: So I do a lot of work with the highs 444 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 3: and lows. You know, when are you at your best? 445 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 3: What are those circumstances? What are the circumstances surrounding when 446 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 3: you don't feel like you're at your best and you're 447 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 3: contributing fully. I think, again, a lot to learn in 448 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 3: those edges. I think emotions are data, So what are 449 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 3: you feeling? You know, we start in the workplace, but 450 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 3: you know, really the conversation I seek to have with 451 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 3: people about it, what are you know? What are the 452 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 3: lives that they want to live, and so how do 453 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 3: they feel as they move through those lives? I think 454 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 3: is really important information. What what is a legacy that 455 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 3: you want to have? You know, how are you defining meaning? 456 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 3: How are you defining success? 457 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 4: So and I'm going to bring my confessional nature to you. So, So, 458 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 4: you had two coaching calls today and in both cases 459 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 4: the people you were coaching ended up in tears, Which 460 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 4: isn't that uncommon of an outcome for you? I mean 461 00:26:54,440 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 4: that it's actually quite startlingly high. What leads to that? 462 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 2: Like? 463 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 4: What what is that about? And these are good tiers? 464 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 4: But how does that happen? 465 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 3: That? 466 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: That's such a great question, Francis, do you want a 467 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: job on how? 468 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 4: I No, I don't. I just confess, So I answer, 469 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 4: but I'm just confessing. I know that happened today and 470 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 4: it would be wonderful. 471 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 3: Yes, well, I love the question. It's there. They were 472 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 3: good tiers and not that there are any bad tears. 473 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 3: In fact, I would argue. But one of the great 474 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 3: privileges of this work is that I get to have 475 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 3: a conversation with people about what matters to them, and 476 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 3: I get to when I'm doing my job, I get 477 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 3: to create a space where they can really get in 478 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 3: touch with the best version of themselves, and sometimes that 479 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:01,719 Speaker 3: version of themselves they have not given that person permission 480 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 3: to come out and play and come out and work, 481 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 3: and come out and be part of the world sometimes 482 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 3: for a long time, and that that's the space for 483 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 3: him or her or them to come out and play. 484 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 3: I think can come with a lot of powerful emotions, 485 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 3: particularly if they've been hanging back for a while. 486 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 2: We will be back soon with and talking about how 487 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 2: one of the keys to her coaching work with leaders 488 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 2: is making it less about them and more about those 489 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 2: around them. 490 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: If you're looking. 491 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 2: For more tips to improve the way that you work, 492 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 2: I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool 493 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 2: things that I've discovered that helped me work better, ranging 494 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 2: from software and gadgets that I'm loving three to interesting 495 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 2: research findings. You can sign up for that at Howiwork 496 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 2: dot code. That's how I Work dot co. I know 497 00:28:58,080 --> 00:28:59,959 Speaker 2: that one of the things you think about with Lee 498 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 2: doesn't coach them through is making it less about. 499 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: Them and more about those around them. Can you talk 500 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: about that? 501 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 3: Yeah? I think, particularly as people move up in the hierarchy, 502 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 3: the gravitational pull of self distraction can get really strong. 503 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 3: It's almost like climbing a cliff and you look down, 504 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 3: so suddenly you're confronted with the stakes, but you're also 505 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 3: confronted with the fact that there are lots of people 506 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 3: paying attention to what you say and what you do, 507 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 3: and that whole ride can be very self distracting. So 508 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 3: some of what we do in our work is give 509 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 3: people permission to look outward. Sometimes the metaphor we use 510 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 3: is look away from the mirror and look out the 511 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 3: window at what the people around you need. Often that's 512 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 3: a very relieving message, because again, the best version of 513 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 3: us is a very I believe, very service oriented version, 514 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 3: and it is eager to get out there and be 515 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 3: of service to the world. But the way leadership has 516 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 3: been defined, the way it's been done and practice, the 517 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 3: world's obsession with individual leaders and you know the succession 518 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 3: story and the palace intrigue, and you know the way 519 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 3: we talk about leadership that the stories we tell, they're 520 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 3: very focused on the individual leader, when in fact, where 521 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 3: the real action is is what's happening in the rest 522 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 3: of the palace, the rest of the building. 523 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 2: And so we. 524 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 3: Invite people to reframe the work that they do when 525 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 3: they are practicing leadership in that way, and that can 526 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 3: be a powerful pivot. 527 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 4: One of the great things that I've learned from n 528 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 4: On along this line is that you might have a 529 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,479 Speaker 4: hierarchy a management position, but nobody's a leader twenty four 530 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 4: to seven. So even if I'm in a hierarchical position, 531 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 4: I'm only in the act of leadership when I am 532 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 4: centered on others. And when I'm self distracted, which you 533 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,719 Speaker 4: have to be put the oxygen mask on yourself, you 534 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 4: are not participating in the act of leadership. And the 535 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 4: separation of leaders and leadership can be super powerful to people. 536 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean just so that I think that 537 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 3: insight Francises can be so helpful and practical. Just this 538 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 3: idea that leadership is a is an action, it's a practice. 539 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 3: It is not an identity. Uh, And it's you know, 540 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 3: you're you're leading when you are focused on setting the 541 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 3: people around you up for success. And there are other 542 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 3: things that you need to do for your own security 543 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 3: and survival and happiness and well being, and those those 544 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 3: things are valuable too, but it's not leadership. And that 545 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 3: that message has also been helpful to a lot of 546 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 3: the people we work with. 547 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: Now invite your roles. 548 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 2: You would spend a lot of time giving people great 549 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 2: advice and listening. And I'm wondering for you guys, over 550 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 2: the courses of your career out what stands out as 551 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 2: some of the best career advice you've both received and Francis, 552 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 2: maybe do you want to take this one first? 553 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, by far, the best career advice I received 554 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 4: is from Anne, so I might if I ever have 555 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 4: disproportionate success, I get twenty four to seven of this, 556 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 4: so it's so fair. But I'll tell you some of 557 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 4: the things. I mean. And helped me understand the window 558 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 4: mirror metaphor and that to be other distracted. I had 559 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 4: intuition about it, but she really helped me understand that 560 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 4: you met me at the trust. Well, Anne and I 561 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 4: worked on that talk. I happen to be the one 562 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 4: that delivered it. So I would work overnight and she 563 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 4: would work in the morning, and then I would work overnight. 564 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 4: And what I learned is that the purpose of a 565 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 4: first draft is to be embarrassed by it by the 566 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 4: second draft. I did not know that, And I mean, 567 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 4: and then I thought the first trap Okay, well, the 568 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 4: second draft, let's poor liquid svent on that, and then 569 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 4: she would do another and another and another, and I 570 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 4: it just blew my mind on that part. So it's 571 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 4: the looking out the window of others and that think 572 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 4: that writing is a really wonderful form of thinking. And 573 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 4: I just always thought I was a bad writer, so 574 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 4: I didn't participate in it very much. And it has 575 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 4: just unleashed my ability to think and improved my ability 576 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 4: to communicate, even though I still communicate with shapes more 577 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 4: than words. I hear it like in that Ted talk, 578 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 4: I had to draw shapes on the on the blackboard. 579 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 4: But I think those two things really the mirror and 580 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 4: the and the revision of ideas, and that that's and 581 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 4: that writing is a great form of thinking. Love that. 582 00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: How about you, Anne. 583 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 3: I'm gonna I'm going to answer this as a category 584 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:08,240 Speaker 3: advice of advice with the headline of don't believe everything 585 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 3: you think. And I'll add a little texture to that 586 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:17,360 Speaker 3: which so I am an authenticity wobbler, an empathy anchor 587 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 3: authenticity wobbler in our a lexicon. When I was starting 588 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 3: companies in a previous career, I spent a lot of 589 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 3: time raising money from venture capitalists, a task at which 590 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 3: I was terrible in the beginning. And back to our 591 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 3: conversation about trust. It is one of those conversations that 592 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 3: is all about I mean, particularly when you're raising money 593 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 3: for a company that does not yet exist. You are 594 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,399 Speaker 3: asking people to jump off a cliff with you, and 595 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 3: so if they don't trust you even a little bit, 596 00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 3: there's no way they're taking that leap. And so in 597 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 3: the beginning, I would, you know, get up at the 598 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 3: front of the room. And I was very distracted by 599 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 3: the idea that I was a woman, and I was young, 600 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 3: and I had never done this before, and I was queer, 601 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 3: and I was in some rooms where no woman had 602 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 3: been in except to like take a lunch order or 603 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 3: deliver a like. I was so distracted by the surroundings, 604 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 3: and as I tried to figure out what was going wrong, 605 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,280 Speaker 3: I kept misdiagnosing and kept you know, confidence and swagger, 606 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 3: and I just became more There was more and more 607 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:37,800 Speaker 3: preteenpse pretending to be the person in the front of 608 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 3: the room that they wanted to see, which people can 609 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 3: figure out very quick. The human animal can smell that 610 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 3: one from a well anyway, So I figured out it 611 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,240 Speaker 3: was authenticity. One of the frameworks that was very helpful 612 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 3: to me was the Wonderful Byron Katie's for essential questions, 613 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 3: and the idea is to identify the thought, so the 614 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 3: you know, the thought in that room might be this 615 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 3: is a room that doesn't value me. So the first 616 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 3: question on the list of essential question is is it true? 617 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:19,280 Speaker 3: And your answers, of course it's true. The second question 618 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 3: is is it really true? Jus as zooming your answer 619 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 3: the verson one is wrong and in fact it's never 620 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 3: totally true. And then the questions get really fun, which 621 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,399 Speaker 3: is they're like, well, could the opposite be true? Could 622 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 3: it be that you don't value the other, you don't 623 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 3: value the people in the room, or you are undervaluing 624 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 3: your It's not that they're undervaluing you, it's that you're 625 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 3: undervaluing you. And let's take a look at the data. 626 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 3: Your name seems to be on the list, like you 627 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 3: seem to be invited to stand up at the front 628 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 3: of the room and take everyone's time. Somehow you've concluded 629 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 3: that your voice is not being valued, and yet you 630 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 3: are the only one speaking. Everyone is taking notes on 631 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,879 Speaker 3: what you're saying, right, So it's really fun and then 632 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 3: the last question is really the moment of liberation. And 633 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,240 Speaker 3: I think this idea of freedom is what is most 634 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,439 Speaker 3: motivating to me in this work. Can I help get 635 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,439 Speaker 3: people in touch with a sense of freedom that they 636 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 3: have not been able to give themselves up to this point. 637 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 3: But the moment of liberation is, well, who would you 638 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 3: be if you weren't dragging this story around? And do 639 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 3: you have the power to let it go? And what's 640 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 3: on the other side of letting that story go? And 641 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 3: it doesn't mean that there's no data to support your 642 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,720 Speaker 3: original story, and it doesn't mean that there's not someone 643 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 3: in the room that's thinking, well, I really prefer a 644 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,359 Speaker 3: dude maybe, but that's not helpful to me, and that's 645 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 3: not what everybody's thinking. And that guy may be easily 646 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 3: persuaded once I actually say something useful as opposed to 647 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 3: getting stuck in my own head and that like, those 648 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 3: are the sandboxes that are really fun for me. And 649 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 3: that's part of the experimentation. Is if I'm not willing 650 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 3: to do that work in my own life, then I 651 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 3: cannot be helpful in facilitating that kind of work for 652 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 3: anybody else. 653 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: That's awesome. 654 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 2: Now, I don't know where time is gone, but like 655 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,320 Speaker 2: it has and sorry, look, i'd love to know, I 656 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 2: added Francis for people that want to reach out, get 657 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 2: in touch, consume more. 658 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:24,720 Speaker 4: Of your work. 659 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 1: What is the best way for people to do that? 660 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 4: For me, it's LinkedIn and it's at Francis Frye. It's 661 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 4: a place. And if you look back at historic posts 662 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 4: I've done, particularly over covid, I did a lot of 663 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 4: instructional thing I just if I had thought, I tried 664 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 4: to write, if I understood something, I tried to share it. 665 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 4: I'm very much about democratizing education, so if I know it, 666 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 4: I want to tell everyone else. So I would want 667 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 4: is to see new thoughts. But also you can look 668 00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 4: in the library of things. But LinkedIn is a pretty 669 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 4: good place for me. I'm very good about the messages 670 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 4: and things there excellent. 671 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 3: And yeah, I think LinkedIn is a is a good 672 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 3: starting place for me too. We are not very good 673 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,760 Speaker 3: at promoting ourselves. We probably could frame it as promoting 674 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 3: ourselves as opposed to just giving the people access. So 675 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,879 Speaker 3: that's that that's more work that we'll do. Uh now, 676 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 3: And if we could, we could continue this conversation at 677 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 3: five a m. And I would have a lot more 678 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 3: at off for your listeners. 679 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I have just enjoyed this conversation so much. 680 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 2: It's like it's it's a novelty for me to have 681 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 2: two faithful that I'm talking to and saying again, a novelty. 682 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 2: But oh, you're just both such joys. I wish I 683 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 2: could just like take you home and like invite you 684 00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 2: to every dinner party that I have, Like, so thank 685 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,839 Speaker 2: you so much for sharing your wisdom. It's just been 686 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 2: a joy. 687 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:05,799 Speaker 4: It's such a. 688 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 3: Pleasure, such a pleasure. Yeah, delighted to have this country. 689 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 3: We love what you're doing in the world and love. 690 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 4: It inspiring creativity. It's really wonderful. 691 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: Thank you. 692 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,280 Speaker 2: I loved the metaphor that and uses with leaders about 693 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,840 Speaker 2: looking away from the mirror and looking outside through the window. 694 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 2: There are definitely many times in my own work life 695 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 2: where I can get caught up in myself and the 696 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,360 Speaker 2: impression that I'm trying to make. And I find that 697 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 2: when I do this, like when I do this before 698 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 2: a keynote presentation, for example, it can make me feel 699 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 2: quite nervous. But when I remind myself that it's not 700 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 2: about me, it's about the people that I'm there to help. 701 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 2: It really does help to settle my nerves and I 702 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 2: can refocus, and I find I also get so much 703 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 2: more energy when I shift to that servant kind of mentality. 704 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 1: So that is it for today. 705 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,399 Speaker 2: If you are enjoying How I Work, why not hit 706 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 2: subscribe or follow wherever you're listening to this podcast from 707 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,319 Speaker 2: and in the next couple of weeks, I'm going to 708 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,880 Speaker 2: be releasing an episode every day of the work week 709 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 2: which will have the top ten listener tips, which I've 710 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 2: been asking you all for, So hit subscribe or follow 711 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 2: if you would like to hear more tips that listeners 712 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 2: like yourselves have called their favorites. How I Work is 713 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 2: produced by Inventing with production support from Dead Set Studios. 714 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 1: The producer for this. 715 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 2: Episode was Liam Riordan, and thank you to Matt Nimba, 716 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,839 Speaker 2: who does the audio mix for every episode and makes 717 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 2: everything sound so much better than it would have otherwise. 718 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 1: See you next time.