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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Two months ago,

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Speaker 1: the headlines screamed, chat GPT is destroying our brains. AI

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Speaker 1: is lowering your IQ, We're all getting dumber. In fact,

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Speaker 1: one Australian newspaper article said that education is no longer education.

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Speaker 1: We have been lobotomized by AI. The alarm came from

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Speaker 1: an MIT study that showed that students who used chat

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Speaker 1: GPT had terrible recall. Eighty three percent could not remember

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Speaker 1: what they'd written, compared to just eleven percent who couldn't

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Speaker 1: remember if they used their own brains. Case closed rights.

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Speaker 1: AI makes you stupid, Except there's something buried in that

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Speaker 1: two hundred page study that most headlines missed, and it's

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Speaker 1: something that changes everything today. What AI is actually doing

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Speaker 1: to our kids' brains, why schools are accidentally making it worse,

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Speaker 1: and the one thing that you need to teach your

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Speaker 1: children before they touched chat gpt again. Stay with us, gooda.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Happy Family Podcast, where you get real

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Speaker 1: parenting solutions every single Day's Australia's most downloaded parenty podcast.

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Speaker 1: We are Justin and Kylie Coursen, the parents of six

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Speaker 1: children who do from time to time use chat, GPT

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Speaker 1: and other forms of AI. And I'm not just talking

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Speaker 1: about the kids.

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Speaker 2: I was recently having a conversation with my nutritionalists and

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Speaker 2: asking him whether AI was a good way for me

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Speaker 2: to count calories right, and he said it's not very reliable.

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Speaker 2: And as we continue discussing, I never thought of this,

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Speaker 2: but people will take a photo of the plate of

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Speaker 2: food they're eating and then ask AI to calculate the calories.

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Speaker 1: That can't be accurate.

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Speaker 2: It's not no, it's not, he said. He said, it

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Speaker 2: will do. It will do a fairly good job, but

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Speaker 2: like if you're if you're really serious about it, it's

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Speaker 2: not going to come close. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: AI can do stuff, but it can't do everything.

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Speaker 2: Well, I never thought of that, and so I said, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: that's not how I'm using it. I said, I'm actually

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Speaker 2: weighing all of my food and then I'm asking it

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Speaker 2: to give me the information I'm looking for. And he said, oh,

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Speaker 2: you're actually you're actually doing a great job. Work first,

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Speaker 2: but you need to do so. He gave me a

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Speaker 2: good pat on the back. It does have its uses.

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Speaker 1: You've got to do the work for it to work,

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Speaker 1: which is what today's podcast.

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Speaker 2: Is all about, So what is this study that you're citing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so there's some MIT researchers. They found that it's

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Speaker 1: not whether you use AI that matters, it's when, so

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Speaker 1: that ties in exact with what you're hinting at. They

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Speaker 1: tested these two groups. One group used their brain first

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Speaker 1: and then used AI, so they did the thinking, they

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Speaker 1: did the planning, they did the work, and then they

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Speaker 1: plugged it into chat GPT to refine the work. Whereas

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Speaker 1: the second group they went, I'm going to use AI

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Speaker 1: and then I'm going to try to think about what

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Speaker 1: the AI is giving me. So chat GPT then brain

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Speaker 1: the brain to AI group. Their EEG scans. Their brain

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Speaker 1: scan showed increased neural activity, so there was better attention,

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Speaker 1: there was greater planning, more memory processing. And then even

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Speaker 1: when they use AI, their brain stayed engaged because they

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Speaker 1: knew the work, they knew what they were doing. They

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Speaker 1: used their brain first. But the AI first group that

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Speaker 1: then used their brain they just never recovered. Even when

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Speaker 1: they stopped using AI, their cognitive engagement flatlined. It actually dropped,

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Speaker 1: like it just stopped working.

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Speaker 2: And that correlated with the conversation I was having with

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Speaker 2: my nutrition lists exactly. I said to my I don't

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Speaker 2: want to use an app that's just about counting calories

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Speaker 2: because I'm still learning. I'm still trying to understand what

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Speaker 2: fuels my body and where I'm going to best to

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Speaker 2: get those foods from. So when I eat something and

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Speaker 2: it says to me, you know what, that's pretty dense

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Speaker 2: in calories, right, I can then say to it, what

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Speaker 2: would I do differently if I want to still feel satisfied?

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Speaker 2: And it's been such a really good tool for me

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Speaker 2: to use as I start to understand this process.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So how you enter the AI interaction will determine

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Speaker 1: whether or not it improves and amplifies your thinking or

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Speaker 1: whether it replaces and subsequently diminishes your thinking. There's a

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Speaker 1: difference between thinking with AI and thinking by AI. And

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Speaker 1: so Alfie Cone is somebody that I've had on the

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Speaker 1: podcast a number of times. You've become a fan because

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Speaker 1: you've heard him speak so well. He puts it like this.

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Speaker 1: He says, using AI to write for you is like

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Speaker 1: bringing a forklift to the gym and having it lift

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Speaker 1: weights for you. The weights get lifted, but you don't

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Speaker 1: get stronger.

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Speaker 2: He also said, by rushing to make use of chat GPT.

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Speaker 2: Schools may not just be overestimating the capacities and capabilities

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Speaker 2: of artificial intelligent, but underestimating the essence of education.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I like African. The terrifying part for me is

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Speaker 1: that schools are legitimately rushing into it. I read a

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Speaker 1: recent investigative report in the Australia a couple of weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: and oh, my god, goodness, this thing. University has changed

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Speaker 1: a lot since I was there, is all I can say.

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Speaker 1: They found up to ninety five percent of university students

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Speaker 1: are now using AI to complete assignments and exams, and

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Speaker 1: not just occasionally, I mean constantly. We've got a couple

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Speaker 1: of kids who are at university they do their exams at home.

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Speaker 1: Like there's software that monitors whether anyone comes into the

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Speaker 1: room or with you achieving apparently, but they're literally doing

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Speaker 1: their exams at home. One student, his name was Hayden

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Speaker 1: in this Australian report, graduated with a high distinction and

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Speaker 1: when he was asked how much of his final year

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Speaker 1: he outsourced to AI, he said, and there's a direct

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Speaker 1: quote all of it. One hundred percent of my coursework

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Speaker 1: and one hundred percent of my exams, So he went

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Speaker 1: from being a C average student to an A plus

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Speaker 1: student in eighteen. No, he didn't, he didn't get smarter,

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Speaker 1: he didn't become an A plus student. Chat GPT did

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Speaker 1: the work for him. And I've got a couple of

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Speaker 1: friends who are still University of the lecturers. I obviously

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Speaker 1: am not lecturing at UNI anymore, but they basically said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're not actually lecturers anymore. We are human detectors of plagiarism.

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Speaker 1: But there's no point pointing out the plagiarism because everybody

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Speaker 1: is doing it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. A conversation I just recently had with someone

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Speaker 2: was the acknowledgment that our schools don't pick up their game,

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Speaker 2: that teachers literally lose their roles in the classroom because

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Speaker 2: AI is doing everything.

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Speaker 1: But here's the thing, though, these students are graduating and

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Speaker 1: they are going on to become doctors and engineers and accountants,

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Speaker 1: and they have degrees that they did not earn. You've

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Speaker 1: got pilots who, well, I guess you've got to get

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Speaker 1: into the plane and know how to fly the thing.

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Speaker 1: But I think that it's terrifying. I just I think

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Speaker 1: that it's really really worrying.

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Speaker 2: So are we just talking about university study here.

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Speaker 1: No. In that same report, in this train's analysis, they

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Speaker 1: talked to a thirteen year old boy named Cameron. He said,

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Speaker 1: in year eight, about twenty four out of twenty five

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Speaker 1: kids in my class use AI for everything. My teachers

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Speaker 1: don't blink an eye if I get one hundred percent,

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Speaker 1: I don't even bother to fake wrong answers anymore. Oh

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Speaker 1: my goodness. So I would say that schools are not

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Speaker 1: just ignoring it. I would say schools are enabling it.

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Speaker 1: You've got surveys showing that forty to sixty percent of

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Speaker 1: teachers are now using AI to create their lessons, and

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Speaker 1: get this, they're using AI to great assignments.

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Speaker 2: So I was under the impression, based on what teachers

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Speaker 2: have told our children in the past, that they actually

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Speaker 2: had software that could determine whether or not their students

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Speaker 2: had used AI and what percentage of their work was

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Speaker 2: AI generated. Is that not the case?

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Speaker 1: It is, but a lot of teachers aren't doing anything

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Speaker 1: about it. They're just leaving it b and therefore nobody's thinking,

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Speaker 1: noybody's learning. It gets worse as well. There was a

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Speaker 1: study that was published in January last year January twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five in so the Lands, it's a good, high

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Speaker 1: quality medical journal. They found that doctors who used AI

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Speaker 1: tools regularly became less skilled within six months. So they're

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Speaker 1: diagnosed as accuracy dropped when AI was taken away from them.

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Speaker 1: They became over a line, they became less focused, they

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Speaker 1: became less motivated to think critically. And so if that's

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Speaker 1: what's happening to doctors, this is what's happening to our

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Speaker 1: children's brains as well, turning to mush brain rot.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps this is an obvious question, but why are kids

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Speaker 2: doing it?

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Speaker 1: If you're a student, why would you do it?

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Speaker 2: Because I don't want to do the work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think that's the number one thing I

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Speaker 1: keep on talking to teachers in staff PD that I

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Speaker 1: do around the country. If the work doesn't feel like

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Speaker 1: it has any purpose, you can't expect the students to

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Speaker 1: be motivated to do it, full stop, end of story.

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Speaker 1: No matter no matter what you do, if students do

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Speaker 1: not see some value, some purpose in the work, they

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Speaker 1: are not going to have any desire to be there

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Speaker 1: and to be doing it.

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Speaker 2: So, for me, the hardest part of any project is

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Speaker 2: actually starting getting started.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. Literally yeap break through the Earth's gravitational

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Speaker 1: pull like the Space Shuttle ten minutes of massive energy expenditure,

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Speaker 1: and then you're in orbit and you're firing. But getting

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Speaker 1: the kids out out of the atmosphere and into orbit

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Speaker 1: hardest thing.

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Speaker 2: And so a couple of times I've actually is AI

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Speaker 2: to just generate a starting point for me, because I

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Speaker 2: just I can't.

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Speaker 1: That's that's an unusual thing, though, because usually once it

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Speaker 1: starts for you, I'll give you another prompt like would

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Speaker 1: you like me to do this next? And it makes

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Speaker 1: you fairl I say.

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Speaker 2: I say, well, I kind of like the gist, but

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Speaker 2: this isn't me and so then I throw back my

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Speaker 2: ideas and I'm like I like this better.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But the conversation continues and it feels like you're

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Speaker 1: doing the work, but the AI is actually doing the work.

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Speaker 1: You're just arguing with the AI. So I've used AI

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Speaker 1: a lot over the last little while. I don't use

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Speaker 1: it for my writing anymore. I just refuse to. I

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Speaker 1: absolutely make sure that I've done the work first. If

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Speaker 1: there's something really really important or something that I really

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Speaker 1: need to refine, I'll ask it to do some refining

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Speaker 1: for me. But I will not let it do the

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Speaker 1: work for me anymore because it sounds like AI. And

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Speaker 1: I've been really public about not wanting to sound like

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Speaker 1: AI because too many people out there are using it

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Speaker 1: and they you can't even read an opinion piece in

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Speaker 1: the newspaper. Now it's all done by AI. Let me

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Speaker 1: go back to why else they're using it? Everyone else

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Speaker 1: is doing it. Not only is a purpose thing, but

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Speaker 1: everyone else is doing it. And actually, I think schools

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Speaker 1: are encouraging it. I think teachers are using it, administrators

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Speaker 1: and pushing it. Tech companies are profiting from it. It's

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Speaker 1: in big text interest for the kids to be using it.

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Speaker 1: So after the break, a couple of quick minutes on

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Speaker 1: what we can do the solution, what we're supposed to

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Speaker 1: do to help our kids to navigate a new world

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Speaker 1: of AI in a way that does not rock their brains.

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Speaker 1: Stay with us. We're back. It's the Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 1: If you're enjoying the pod, please like it, share it,

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Speaker 1: leave a rating and review, tell people about it. It's

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Speaker 1: how we get the word out and make families happier.

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Speaker 2: So you're suggesting you have some solutions and some scripts both.

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Speaker 1: I have both. The MIT study is really clear. Use

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Speaker 1: your brain first, then use AI that works. Use AI first,

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Speaker 1: then use your brain that doesn't work. So the rule

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Speaker 1: that I think that everyone should have in their houses

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Speaker 1: as follows. Before you touch chat GPT, you must attempt

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Speaker 1: the problem yourself. We call this productive struggle. We call

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Speaker 1: it developing distress tolerance or frustration tolerance. When kids struggle

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Speaker 1: with things, when they write an awful first draft, when

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Speaker 1: they try and when they fail, that's where the learning happens.

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Speaker 1: And then, and only then can you use AI either

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Speaker 1: to refine or challenge or extend your thinking, not to

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Speaker 1: replace your thinking, to amplify it. Even then, I think

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Speaker 1: that we want to be hesitant. I think we want

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Speaker 1: to be really really careful with this. I'd rather the

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Speaker 1: students do all of it.

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Speaker 2: So what does this look like in practice?

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Speaker 1: Let me give you a prompt. I've jotted down a

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Speaker 1: prompt here. This is the recall prompt, so you could

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Speaker 1: prompt AI as follows. Before you give me any suggestions

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Speaker 1: on how I can improve this, I need to demonstrate

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Speaker 1: my current understanding. So you tell the AI, you tell

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Speaker 1: chat Claude and whatever it is Gemini, ask me to

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Speaker 1: recall and explain my main thesis, the supporting evidence, and

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Speaker 1: my biggest concern earns from memory, and don't give me

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Speaker 1: any new input until I've successfully articulated these three things. Now,

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Speaker 1: I don't think many students are going to do that.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's a mouthful.

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Speaker 1: You're basically saying, make me tell you what I'm going

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Speaker 1: to do in detail before you give me any prompts,

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Speaker 1: before you give me any new input. Before you let's

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Speaker 1: make sure that I'm understanding.

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Speaker 2: Then why would you bother?

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Speaker 1: Well, you would bother because then you can do the

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Speaker 1: second prompt that I've got, and that is the challenge prompt. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so the first one's about recall. The second one is

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Speaker 1: about challenge. I've written this essay. I've demonstrated that I

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Speaker 1: know what I'm talking about here. I don't want you

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Speaker 1: to rewrite it. I want you to ask me three

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Speaker 1: hard questions that expose weaknesses in my argument make me

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Speaker 1: defend my thinking. So if you use chat GPT or

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Speaker 1: Claude or Gemini or any of the others like that,

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Speaker 1: that's going to deepen and amplify thinking. That's going to

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Speaker 1: make you better. It's like if I'm going to say

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Speaker 1: I've got this exam coming up. Here's all the material

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Speaker 1: that I need to hit me with ten questions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but human nature is to find the path of

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Speaker 2: least resistance.

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Speaker 1: Not necessarily. Look at the way you're working out in

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Speaker 1: the gym. You're not going for the path of least resistance.

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Speaker 1: That's sitting on the cutch eating chocolate chip cookies and

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Speaker 1: milk and watching TV.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but I'm going against my nature because my nature

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Speaker 2: would tell me to do exactly that.

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Speaker 1: Nature or not, You're making a decision to be effortfull.

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Speaker 1: And what I'm arguing is that the effort pays off.

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Speaker 1: You're seeing the effort paying off and you're glad for it.

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Speaker 1: Children students are going to struggle to see the effort

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Speaker 1: paying off. They just see all their friends doing nothing

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Speaker 1: and then hanging out on Fortnite or Roadblocks or Discord,

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Speaker 1: and they're like, well, I just want to use Chat

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Speaker 1: as well. I just want to use AI as well.

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Speaker 1: This is going to damage their brains. So here's the

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Speaker 1: script for the kids. I know skill feels like it's

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Speaker 1: jumping through hoops. I know everyone's using AI. I know

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Speaker 1: it's faster, I know it's easier, but you're trading away

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Speaker 1: your ability to think. Right now, your brain is using

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Speaker 1: developing neural pathways that you're going to use for the

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Speaker 1: rest of your life. And every time you let CHAT

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Speaker 1: GPT think for you, the pathways don't form. So then

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Speaker 1: you can use Alfie Cone. It's like taking a forklift

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Speaker 1: to the gym. The ways are getting lifted, but you're

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Speaker 1: not getting any stronger. So just say to the kids

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Speaker 1: you can use AI, yes, but brain first. Always no shortcuts,

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Speaker 1: because what happens when you're a doctor and you can't

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Speaker 1: diagnose without chat GPT, without the AI, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be a disaster. That's the conversation to have with the kids.

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Speaker 1: Low probability play. I don't think that it's going to

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Speaker 1: work for everybody, but it's the best that I've got

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Speaker 1: because this is a tough problem.

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Speaker 2: What would you say to schools if you're struggling with

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Speaker 2: this in the classroom?

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Speaker 1: Oh, I would say to schools to go analog, not digital,

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Speaker 1: and I would say teach exactly the same principle. I

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Speaker 1: would also school leaders are unlikely to listen to parents

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Speaker 1: around this. But what I would also say is that

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Speaker 1: I would be demanding face to face exams don't let

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Speaker 1: anything happen online with schools. That's likely to happen anyway, right,

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Speaker 1: everyone's at school. It's not like they're doing exams from home.

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Speaker 1: I would be demanding oral assessments, more kids standing up

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Speaker 1: and learning how to articulate in front of an audience.

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Speaker 1: I think it's one of the most important skills they

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Speaker 1: can have anyway, Like for your student, your child, to

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Speaker 1: be able to do that, that's a powerful skill. And

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Speaker 1: we don't do enough oral stuff. And I'd be looking

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Speaker 1: for assignments that do not just require text output like

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Speaker 1: an essay or a lab report. I'd be looking for

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Speaker 1: assignments that require a demonstration of human involvement. They would

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Speaker 1: be the things that I'd be looking for. My sense

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Speaker 1: is that a lot of teachers are just horrified by

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Speaker 1: what's happening, but they feel completely and utterly powerless. But

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Speaker 1: that's the standard, and I think schools should be held

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Speaker 1: to it.

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Speaker 2: So I guess, ultimately, just like all of the challenges

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Speaker 2: that we have in family life, they're watching us, they're

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Speaker 2: watching how we're interacting with things, and AI is no different.

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Speaker 2: Whether it's social media technology in general or artificial intelligence.

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Speaker 2: It's an opportunity for us to just take stock of

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Speaker 2: how we're using it and ensuring that where modeling a

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Speaker 2: positive experience for everybody.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, here's what's at stake. We are raising a generation

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Speaker 1: that may I don't want to sound too alarmist, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to say, may never learn to think critically. That's

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Speaker 1: probably going too far, but we're certainly handicapping their ability

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Speaker 1: to think critically, solve problems, independently, engage deeply with ideas.

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Speaker 2: But I don't think we can blame AI on that entirely.

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Speaker 2: I think that that's been coming up for a long

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Speaker 2: time in our school system based on the current model

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Speaker 2: we're working with.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no doubt. The challenge really though, is let's

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Speaker 1: get our kids thinking. So I would suggest this before

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Speaker 1: your child uses AI for anything, whether it's their schoolwork

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Speaker 1: or something they're writing, whatever it is, they just have

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Speaker 1: to attempt to themselves first, brain first, then AI. That's

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Speaker 1: the order always, and if they push back, just remind them.

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Speaker 1: The forklift lifts the weights, but you don't get stronger.

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Speaker 1: You choose do you want to think or do you

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Speaker 1: want a machine to think for you? Because once you

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Speaker 1: lose that ability to think, it's really really hard, to dive,

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Speaker 1: to refine it, to build on it. Okay, that's it

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Speaker 1: for today. Thank you so much for listening. We hope

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Speaker 1: that this has been an informative and encouraging conversation. The

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Speaker 1: Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media,

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Speaker 1: with Muhammed's providing additional support. If you'd like more offer

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Speaker 1: to make your family happy, visit happy families dot com

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Speaker 1: dot au