1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: If you were to take your job on the road 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: and live as a digital nomad, would you be able 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: to keep it up without your life turning into a 4 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,479 Speaker 1: permanent holiday? Could you do it while also running a 5 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: global company. Co founder and CEO at Levels, Sam Corcos 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: has done just that. He's been working as a digital 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: nomad for ten years. So I got connected with Sam 8 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: via Darren Murph, who is head of Remote at GitLab 9 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: and was one of my favorite guests on the show 10 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty. Sam's company Levels is responsible for creating 11 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: a fascinating health tech wearable device that tracks your blood 12 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: glucose levels in real time so that you can optimize 13 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: your diet and exercise. Sam is a fellow productivity nerd 14 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: and thinks very deeply about his personal productivity and health, 15 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: and in today's show, he shares a ton of really 16 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: practical tips from his email processing strategy and how he 17 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: organizes his calendar as a hyper busy CEO, through to 18 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: how he manages to read two books every week. Yes 19 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: that's every single week, and we also chat about his 20 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: quarterly Think Week ritual. I'm doctor Ramantha imbat I'm an 21 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 22 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: and this is how I work a show that helps 23 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: you do your best work. Let's start by hearing what 24 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: Sam's nomadic lifestyle is like as a CEO and how 25 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: he has managed to make that work. 26 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's something that I've been doing for quite a 27 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 2: long time, not necessarily intentionally, just sort of out of necessity. 28 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 2: I was a software developer and a contractor for a 29 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: long time, which involved a lot of travel, and you know, 30 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 2: at a certain point you just kind of get used 31 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 2: to it not having a permanent location. 32 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 3: And so what does that actually look like? How do 33 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 3: you move around? What do you own? What do you pack? 34 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 3: Where do you go? 35 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm at my most aggressively minimalistic stage right now. 36 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 2: I'm down to I think one pair of jeans and 37 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 2: three T shirts. Pretty much everything I own fits in 38 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 2: a backpack. Being a minimalist is definitely helps with the 39 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: being more of a nomad. I try to optimize for 40 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: staying with friends. I found that it's a really great 41 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: way to build relationships with people that I don't know 42 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 2: im I get a lot of time to spend with them. 43 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,519 Speaker 2: It's also been fun taking people up on what we're 44 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: likely facetious offers. I have friends who say, yeah, you know, 45 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 2: anytime you want come on down, and I'll say, cool, 46 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: how's a Tuesday. Then I'll just show up at their 47 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: house and it's yeah. It's been a really great way 48 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 2: of building relationships. I try to stay in touch with 49 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 2: a lot of people, and I keep pretty rigorous notes. 50 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 2: I think at this point, have I think something last 51 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 2: I checked maybe three hundred people that I have on 52 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 2: a list who have offered extra bedrooms or couches that 53 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 2: I could stay on if I was visiting. 54 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: So it's a cycle through it that is quite insane, 55 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: and it certainly blows Dunbazz number. 56 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 3: What it doesn't it one hundred and fifty. 57 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: So what prompted you to have a minimalistic approach to 58 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:26,399 Speaker 1: your life? 59 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 2: I would say part of it was just reducing cognitive load. 60 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: I think that in general. I think in general we 61 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 2: underestimate how much cognitive load we put on ourselves when 62 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: we have stuff. There's a reason why when people do 63 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: spring cleaning, it feels really good. You have fewer things, 64 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 2: you have fewer attachments, fewer obligations. I found for myself 65 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 2: that a lot of these things are just comfort having 66 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: a lot of stuff, and you can become comfortable with discomfort, 67 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: and you can really use your time focused on the 68 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: right things. Part of it, I think is the recognition 69 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: that I'm dying, that we're all dying, just some of 70 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: us more acutely than others. And the more time we 71 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 2: spend on things that are not adding value is really 72 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 2: detracting from our long term goals. And I found for 73 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: me spending a lot of time following the news, thinking 74 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 2: about what I dress like and what I'm wearing, accumulating 75 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 2: more things, having more responsibilities that the fewer of those 76 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 2: things that I had in my life, the more time 77 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 2: I could spend towards the things that I really care about. 78 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 3: That makes a lot of sense. 79 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: And how does applying minimalism to your life help you 80 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 1: be more productive? 81 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 2: I think the biggest one is in terms of I 82 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 2: guess time management broadly. I think a lot about how 83 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 2: I spend my time, and by not having things or obligations, 84 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 2: it's very easy for me to make quick decisions and 85 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 2: to make changes very quickly. The idea of me moving 86 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 2: from one place to another is really I have a 87 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 2: hard time relating to people who for them moving is 88 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 2: a really big deal. I think it's in the top 89 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: five most stressful activities that most humans experience, up there 90 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 2: with the death of a family member. And for me, 91 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 2: moving and traveling is really it's very low stress, maybe 92 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 2: zero stress. Part of it's just because I don't have 93 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 2: stuff to move. I don't have to worry about the logistics. 94 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 2: I don't have to worry about coordinating things. Another thing 95 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: is I've had a lot of conversations with people related 96 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 2: to environmentalism, and I do think that it is interesting 97 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 2: how much we tend to focus on the waste component 98 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 2: of consumption and so much less about the input components. 99 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 2: We think a lot about recycling and trash, and we 100 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 2: don't think about the input. The person who owns several 101 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: extra homes is contributing a lot more to damaging the 102 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 2: climate than somebody who throws away a recyclable jar. So 103 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 2: I think a lot about these things, and I think 104 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 2: that if most people were to practice some form of minimalism, 105 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: really just consuming fewer things, I think a lot of 106 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 2: societal problems that we're experiencing would probably get a lot better. 107 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: So, given the way you live, what does your work 108 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: environment look like when you're say, staying with the friend's house, 109 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: maybe sleeping on a couch. 110 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 3: I don't know, what does your work environment? 111 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 2: Then look, I have my laptop. I'm currently sitting cross 112 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 2: legged on a bed. Part of this is related to 113 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 2: maybe my own inability to multitask. I don't have multiple screens, 114 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: which I know a lot of people really like having. 115 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 2: I've tried it. I just find it incredibly distracting and disruptive. 116 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 2: I have the one computer, I have the one screen, 117 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 2: and I try to only focus on one task at 118 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: a time. Sometimes I use things like I have noise 119 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: canceling headphones, which blocks out external noise so that I 120 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: can really stay focused on what I'm doing. I've created 121 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: some other interesting tools, like I call them my focus goggles, 122 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 2: which are basically safety glasses that you would have in 123 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 2: in a science lab, and I've spray painted around them 124 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 2: so that you can only see a very narrow strip 125 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 2: in front of you. 126 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. 127 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're pretty nerdy, but they they are quite effective 128 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 2: at blocking out peripheral vision. It's interesting because I'm incredibly 129 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 2: lacking in discipline, which is often surprising. Who are people 130 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: who know me who think that I'm incredibly disciplined. But 131 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 2: it's more like I've created artificial structures around my own 132 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: actions in order to force myself to be disciplined if 133 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 2: I don't have a meeting. In fact, this morning is 134 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 2: a perfect example in theory. I like to wake up 135 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 2: at seven and start working, but my call this morning 136 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 2: at eight o'clock got canceled, so when my alarm went off, 137 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 2: I just went back to sleep. And I will often 138 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 2: create things like I will make a meeting at eight 139 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 2: am every day so that I have to wake up, 140 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,319 Speaker 2: because if I don't, then if I don't have that obligation, 141 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,599 Speaker 2: then I will be incredibly lazy. I have website blockers 142 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 2: for things like Twitter, for a lot of other things 143 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 2: that I find really distracting. I use a lot of 144 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 2: tools to just increase friction so that I'm I know 145 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 2: that future Sam will be more likely to do the 146 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 2: right thing. 147 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: What are some other tools that you're using to increase 148 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:16,359 Speaker 1: that friction. 149 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I use one. Website blockers are a big one. 150 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 2: I think it depends a lot on what types of 151 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 2: addictions one has. So for me, for a long time, 152 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 2: it was social media. A couple things. One. My relationship 153 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 2: with Twitter is much healthier Now. I discovered muted words, 154 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 2: which is a thing where you can any tweet that 155 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 2: has a particular phrase in it won't show up in 156 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 2: your feed. So for me, I know that a lot 157 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 2: of the I guess you could call it outrage porn 158 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 2: that makes its way onto Twitter really distracts me and 159 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 2: pulls my focus in the wrong direction. I have easily 160 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 2: in the hundreds of muted words, think from violence to 161 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 2: riots to anything that's like an angry term. I haven't 162 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: effectively turned off. And I have a lot of blocked 163 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 2: accounts as well, and as a result, my Twitter experience 164 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 2: is quite positive. I also deleted Facebook and got rid 165 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 2: of most social media. I've also been I've been news 166 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 2: sober for about eight years. 167 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 3: And what does news sober mean? 168 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 2: That means I have not consumed news in any form, 169 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 2: be it written, verbal, television. I haven't consumed any news 170 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 2: since about twenty thirteen. 171 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 3: Wow. What prompted that? 172 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? I had this recognition. I read a book Ryan Holidays, 173 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 2: Trust Me I'm Lying, which really the subtitle was Confessions 174 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,719 Speaker 2: of a Media Manipulator, And I think he really did 175 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 2: write the book as a confession. 176 00:10:57,679 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 3: It's a great book, isn't it. 177 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And he was talking about how he does 178 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: all of these tricks to manipulate the media to cover 179 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 2: certain things, and very much saying like I'm sorry that 180 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 2: I've been doing this. People need to know about it. 181 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 2: It's getting it's bad, and it's getting worse. And this 182 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 2: is before the term fake news even existed. He might 183 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 2: he practically coined it in that book. He at the 184 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 2: very least defines it very robustly. And as an experiment, 185 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 2: I decided that for a month I would stop, I 186 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: would stop following the news, which was taking up a 187 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 2: lot of my time, and I would try using that 188 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 2: time just a one for one trade off to just 189 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 2: read books. And in that month, I think I read 190 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 2: eight books that month, which is probably more books than 191 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 2: I'd read in. 192 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 4: The previous five years. 193 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 2: And the there were so many other impacts that were 194 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 2: very interesting. One was that it was amazing how little 195 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 2: I actually missed in terms of things that mattered. It 196 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 2: was this recognition that so much of the news is ephemeral, 197 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 2: and the incentives of the news industry are not in 198 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 2: the best interest of the people that are following the news, 199 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 2: and that the news is generally very low quality information 200 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 2: and books have very high quality information. I would also 201 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 2: say that one of the other things that was really 202 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 2: surprising was how I physically felt different, which is kind 203 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 2: of a hard thing to explain. 204 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 4: That my. 205 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 2: Anxiety levels were down pretty dramatically in facts, almost to 206 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 2: the point where it was non existent. I used to 207 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 2: feel stress, and I used to feel anxious all the 208 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 2: time about world events, and it was weird in retrospect 209 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 2: looking at it and realizing that I was I was 210 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 2: feeling stress about a lot of things that I have 211 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 2: no control over, many of which aren't even real, and 212 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 2: it was a weird recognition. And so I basically haven't 213 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 2: looked back, and I've managed to read two books a 214 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 2: week since giving up the news, just by doing like 215 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 2: a one to one trade of time of news to books. 216 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: Wow. Now I loved Superhuman, and before encountering you, I thought, 217 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: maybe I'm the biggest Superhuman fan in the world, but 218 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: I believe that you might be that person. So I 219 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: want to know how are you using Superhuman in ways 220 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: that make email? 221 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 3: And for those that. 222 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: Don't know, Superhuman is an email client more efficient in 223 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: terms of processing email. 224 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 2: The biggest one is use of hot keys. I process 225 00:13:54,200 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 2: a lot of email. It's probably my core competency. On 226 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 2: the order if I don't process at least three or 227 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 2: four hours of email every day, I fall behind. And 228 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 2: I would say batching is probably the biggest one. And 229 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 2: this is not within the scope of Superhuman. This is 230 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 2: just in terms of time management, really making time for 231 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 2: email and making it a first class citizen. This isn't 232 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 2: the case for everybody. This happens to be the case 233 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 2: at my job. It was talking with one of our 234 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 2: engineers who he said in something like he processes something 235 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: on the order of ten emails per week. It's just 236 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 2: not his job. He doesn't do email. He writes code, 237 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 2: and in my job, pretty much all of what I 238 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 2: do is email. So Superhuman is a really great tool 239 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 2: because it's very performant. It allows for scheduling. The nice 240 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 2: thing about email relative to other mechanisms like text messaging, 241 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: for example, is that email can be trianged. You can 242 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 2: decide if something needs to be responded to now or 243 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 2: it can be responded to later. Some of the other 244 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 2: tools that superhuman laws you do are I think they 245 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 2: use the term snooze, but really scheduling is the term 246 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 2: where you can read an email and say all right, 247 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 2: I need to revisit this in two weeks, and you 248 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 2: can schedule it to resurface in a couple of weeks. 249 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 2: So getting to inbox zero is really the critical component. 250 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 2: Superhuman really enables that and makes it a lot easier. 251 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: And I know that you're a big fan of snippets 252 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: in the Human. Can you talk about what a snippet 253 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: is and how you use it? 254 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, anybody who's worked in customer support knows a lot 255 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 2: about snippets. A snippet is a common phrase or language 256 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 2: that you use in many, many communications. I think right now, 257 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 2: within levels, I think something like seventy percent of our 258 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 2: communications we already have an answer written for it, which 259 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: is pretty high. And I know that for a lot 260 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 2: of the emails that I process, I would guess maybe 261 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 2: half of the emails have are largely written as a 262 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 2: snippet because a lot of the communication that you do 263 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 2: are generally consistent. Like I have a snippet for grabbing 264 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 2: a time on my calendar USUS calendly to schedule something, 265 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: and that works super well. I schedule a lot of things, 266 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 2: so it's useful to have a snippet instead of typing 267 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 2: it out every time oftentimes you can compose emails from 268 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 2: multiple snippets. I have some snippets that are basically a 269 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 2: list of investor asks. I ask a lot of things 270 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 2: from our investors. I think that snippet is maybe twenty 271 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 2: items long, and I keep it up to date, and 272 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 2: as I go through the process of asking for things 273 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 2: from our investors, I'll paste the whole snippet and then 274 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 2: I'll cut out all the ones that we don't need. 275 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: Now, I want to talk about your calendar, and I 276 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: know you think about delineating between macer versus manager time 277 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: to take from Paul Graham's famous essay on that, but 278 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: to start with, I guess, can you talk about the 279 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: difference between maker versus manager time and then how you 280 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 1: schedule that into your diary? 281 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, It's something that I've I guess I would 282 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 2: say I've learned the hard way. This is actually my 283 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 2: first non technical role. Historically, I've been in software development, 284 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 2: usually the person writing code or an engineering leadership. The 285 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 2: first time I really took a leadership role in engineering 286 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 2: and was doing a lot less programming. The challenge that 287 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 2: I ran into is and it I found it very 288 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 2: hard to communicate this to people inside the company who 289 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 2: were not software developers, are not technical. Was how if 290 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 2: I have a thirty minute meeting at eleven am and 291 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 2: at three pm, I can't get any work done the 292 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 2: whole day, And they'll say, well, it's only one hour. 293 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 2: You still have the whole arrest of the day to work, 294 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 2: And it's just like, it really doesn't work that way 295 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 2: when you're trying to get into a flow state. I 296 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 2: can't work up the emotional energy to even start working 297 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 2: on this project if I know that there's a high 298 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 2: likelihood I'll be interrupted in the middle of it. And 299 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 2: so the difference between manager and maker time is Manager 300 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 2: time is it's constant context switching and it's really not 301 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 2: a flow state. It's jumping in between tasks. And maker 302 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 2: time is you're deeply focused on one thing. And your 303 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 2: writing code is a perfect example of maker time. Anytime 304 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 2: you've been in a flow state where you just lose 305 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 2: track of time. There have been times when I've been 306 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: focused on coding and ten twelve hours go by and 307 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: I haven't even looked up at the clock. They're both 308 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 2: useful and important. And the thing that I discovered about 309 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 2: myself is that, especially when you're in engineering leadership where 310 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 2: you really have to do both roles. You're still coding, 311 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 2: but you also. 312 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 4: Have to manage. 313 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 2: I found that intra day context switching was the problem, 314 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 2: not inter day, and by that I mean jumping from 315 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 2: coding to meetings to coding within the same day was 316 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 2: what was causing me most of the emotional turmoil. Whereas 317 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 2: if I just said meetings are on Mondays and Tuesdays 318 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 2: are only programming, I'll take no meetings. Wednesdays, I'll do 319 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 2: meetings again and no coding. If I just accepted certain 320 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 2: boundaries around it, where I would have maker days and 321 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 2: manager days, it ended up working pretty well. 322 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 3: So what do you currently do at the moment? What 323 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 3: does a typical week look like for you? 324 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny you say that, because I'm actually in 325 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 2: the midst of writing a content piece on how I 326 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 2: spent the first two years at Levels. I pretty religiously 327 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 2: keep track of my time. Every fifteen minute increment of 328 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 2: how I spent my time is in my calendar, so 329 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 2: I can retroactively really quantify how I spent my time. 330 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 2: And what's funny is that, I'd say one of the 331 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 2: biggest things is, especially as a CEO, you end up 332 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 2: wearing a lot of different hats. There were three very 333 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 2: distinct periods in the company's history where I was basically 334 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: just a programmer and I was an individual contributor writing 335 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 2: code because that's what needed to happen. There were other 336 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 2: times I spent the entire month of May last year 337 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 2: on sales and marketing, and I just called hundreds of 338 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 2: people to try to convert them and to learn from 339 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 2: them and do user research. Really for the growth team. 340 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: Right now, my job is mostly email. I spend a 341 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 2: tremendous amount of my time on email, and I think 342 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 2: of my role as if the company is a steam engine. 343 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 2: My job is really just to be the low I 344 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 2: don't really have a lot of specific deliverables. My job 345 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 2: is to make sure that all of the component parts 346 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 2: are functioning effectively and are well resourced. On a typical week, 347 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 2: I would say that certainly for the last month or so, 348 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 2: I'm doing a lot of engineering interviews. We're adding a 349 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 2: lot of people to our engineering team this year. I 350 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 2: think since February I've averaged between thirty and forty interviews 351 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: per week. Wow, yep. One of the nice things is 352 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 2: that because our team is so capable. I'm able to 353 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 2: really singularly focus on one problem and really execute on 354 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 2: it effectively. One of the challenges that a lot of 355 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 2: startups that I advise run into is the CEOs in particular, 356 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 2: are pulled in many directions and they have a lot 357 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 2: of deliverables they have to do on many different parts 358 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 2: of the company. I'm fortunate in that my role is 359 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 2: since probably January has been largely redundant within the company. 360 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 2: I could take a week off and probably nobody would notice, 361 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 2: which is very much the goal. 362 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: Now, I want to know what you learned from tracking 363 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: your time in fifteen minute increments for two years. 364 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 4: Yeah. 365 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 2: Man, there were a lot of things. I think the 366 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 2: biggest one was how wrong I was about how I 367 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 2: actually spent my time. I made some predictions in advance 368 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 2: of writing this piece on how much of my time 369 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 2: went to different types of activities. 370 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 4: I was. 371 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: A couple things that I thought I was spending a 372 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 2: lot of time on. One is strategy and thinking about 373 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 2: company strategy, and we have a tremendous amount of documentation, 374 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 2: I would say, way more than the average company of 375 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: our size, and I would have guessed that I probably 376 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 2: probably spent twenty percent of my time on strategy, and 377 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 2: when I analyzed the data, I actually spent about four 378 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 2: percent of my time on strategy. And similarly, I thought 379 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 2: I probably spent twenty percent of my time on recruiting 380 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,360 Speaker 2: because it felt like I was talking to a lot 381 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 2: of people looking for next hires, and I only spent 382 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 2: about two percent of my time on recruiting, which was 383 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 2: even more surprising, and it made me realize that there 384 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 2: are certain types of activities that have a disproportionate emotional 385 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:43,199 Speaker 2: cost than actual time cost. The example around strategy is 386 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 2: that it can be hard to work up the emotional 387 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 2: energy to sit down and write a five page document, 388 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 2: but that might actually only take you about an hour, 389 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 2: and yet it feels a lot less time time to 390 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 2: have ten one hour conversations with different people on your team. 391 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 2: That doesn't actually even do a very good job of 392 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 2: aligning people, because there's this game of telephone where you 393 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 2: feel like you told them what you thought you told them, 394 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 2: but they interpreted it very differently, and so it might 395 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 2: be it might feel like it's less work, but it 396 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 2: might actually be ten times the amount of hours with 397 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 2: a a suboptimal result. So that was one of the 398 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 2: big lessons was that there are certain activities that I 399 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 2: seem to recognize their value, but I shy away from 400 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 2: them in terms of actual time spent. 401 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: That's so fascinating, just the difference between what you were 402 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: expecting and what was the output, and having actually been 403 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: sent a lot of your strategy documents in advance for 404 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: preparing for this interview, I can certainly test to feels 405 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: like you're doing a lot of work. 406 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 4: There. 407 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 3: Hey there, it's nearly time for a little break. But 408 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 3: can I ask a favor of you? 409 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 5: If you're enjoying how I work, I would love it 410 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 5: if you could leave a review or a star rating 411 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 5: and a massive shout out to the hundreds of people 412 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 5: that have done this. I'm truly grateful for you taking 413 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 5: a little bit of time out of your day to 414 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 5: do that. Okay, Sam will be back after this break 415 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 5: to talk about his favorite apps for boosting productivity. 416 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 1: And what exactly this quarterly think week looks like. Now 417 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: I want to know about what are some of your 418 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 1: other favorite apps for productivity outside of Superhuman. 419 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean Google Calendar. 420 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 2: I think that the one of the biggest things, one 421 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 2: of the biggest unlocks for me was using my calendar 422 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 2: as my primary mechanism for time management and in terms 423 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 2: of tasking as well. I used to keep a to 424 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 2: do list, which I think is sort of the default 425 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 2: that everyone has to do list. The challenge that I 426 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 2: kept running into is, especially with digital to do lists, 427 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 2: to do lists can become infinitely long, and they feel 428 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 2: infinitely long. I remember a couple of years ago my 429 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 2: to do list was so long it was several lifetimes 430 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 2: amount of work that would be required to actually get 431 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 2: to the bottom of this list, and so I started 432 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 2: using my calendar to proactively block off time. So when 433 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 2: I would have a task like maybe it's right the 434 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 2: content piece on how I spent the first two years 435 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 2: of my time at levels, I will proactively look at 436 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 2: my calendar and I'll block off I would expect it 437 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 2: will probably take me six hours to write it, so 438 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 2: I'll block off six hours to write that piece. Similarly, 439 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 2: if there's something about running errands or writing a strategy 440 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 2: document on how we think about podcasts, I'll block off 441 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 2: time on my calendar instead of adding it to my 442 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 2: to do list. I found that this was a It 443 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,719 Speaker 2: was probably the most powerful mechanism for just personal anxiety 444 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 2: reduction because your to do list can become really optimistic 445 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,199 Speaker 2: on the things that you can get done because you 446 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 2: can attach an amount of time to each individual item, 447 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: like all right, well, this task takes three hours, this 448 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 2: takes four hours, this takes two days, this takes four days. 449 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 2: But unless you map it onto the chronology of your 450 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 2: actual time, you don't really know how long it takes 451 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 2: and you end up dropping a lot of balls. 452 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: What are some other apps that you're loving for productivity? 453 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 4: Let's see. 454 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: I use text Expander, which is basically snippets outside of Superhuman, 455 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: it's much more extensible. I haven't used a lot of 456 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 2: the extensible functionality. I think a text expander you can 457 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 2: tie in and integrate APIs to run different commands and 458 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 2: actually interact with much more robust set of tools. I 459 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 2: use it for a lot of common things that I 460 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 2: end up typing, either in terminal or in in the console, 461 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 2: or in text messages. I use text expandar for a 462 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 2: lot of my text message communications. I would say the 463 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 2: biggest thing is just to keep things asynchronous as possible. 464 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 2: I would say a lot of my productivity tools would 465 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,440 Speaker 2: be anti tools. I would say to the greatest extent 466 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 2: that it's possible. Your phone should be on do not 467 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 2: disturb mode by default as minus turn off notifications. Don't 468 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 2: use slack, or if you do, use it with a 469 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 2: very specific set of slas for example, we use slack 470 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 2: at levels, but explicitly Slack is not the primary mechanism 471 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 2: for communications. Slack is really just for updates, and there's 472 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 2: no expectation that anyone will respond to a message and 473 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 2: slack within twenty four hours, and that it prevents this 474 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 2: fire hose effective information because information on slack is it's 475 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 2: Slack is a synchronous tool that pretends like it's an 476 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 2: asynchronous tool because you have the same expectation that people 477 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 2: will respond immediately, but it's written and things just get 478 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 2: lost if you're not paying attention in real time. So 479 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 2: I think that focusing on things that are asynchronous by 480 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 2: default is really the most impactful way of being productive. 481 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 2: Is to really emphasize deep focused work and to eliminate 482 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 2: distractions to the greatest extent as possible. 483 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: Now, I know that Calendly is one of your favorite apps. 484 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: Can you tell me for listeners that haven't come across 485 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: Calendly what it is and how you use it? 486 00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I use Calendly pretty religiously scheduling time is I 487 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 2: guess this is actually Calendly is useful for me because 488 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 2: I keep such a rigorous calendar. Calendly syncs with something 489 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 2: like Google Calendar, and it allows people to find open 490 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,719 Speaker 2: spots on your calendar that you designate, and it allows 491 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 2: them to schedule basically self serve. The typical way that 492 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 2: scheduling works is you email somebody, they say, cool, I'm 493 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 2: available at these times. You look at your calendar, you 494 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 2: check all those times. You say, oh, well, I'm not 495 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 2: available those times, but I am available these times. They say, 496 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 2: oh well, I'm not available those times, how about these times? 497 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 2: And it takes multiple days oftentimes to schedule something. Calendly 498 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 2: just pulls in the data from my calendar and just 499 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 2: let somebody pick a time that is open. I probably 500 00:30:55,360 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 2: send five plus calendar links every day for people's scheduling 501 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 2: things on my calendar. I also let it go three 502 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 2: months out and so yeah, it's a really great tool 503 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 2: to cut through the complexity of scheduling. 504 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: Now I've heard that you have a think week every quarter. 505 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 3: What does that look like. 506 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 2: It's something that I highly recommend to anyone in a 507 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 2: strategic role. Every quarter, I take a week I would 508 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 2: say off grid, but not necessarily without access to internet 509 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 2: or whatnot. I actually really like having access to internet 510 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 2: for me. I will often spend a lot of that 511 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 2: time reading and reflecting and writing. I do a lot 512 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 2: of writing. I'll often come out of one of these 513 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 2: think weeks with fifty to one hundred pages of writing 514 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 2: on company strategy or personal reflections or writing of content pieces. 515 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 2: I find writing to be a really, a really satisfying activity, 516 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 2: and so it is usually during these think weeks that 517 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 2: I come up with some of my best ideas because 518 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 2: it's I don't take any meetings, I don't take any calls. 519 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 2: I really just focus as much as I can on 520 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 2: the big picture. So a lot of my best ideas 521 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 2: have come from taking time away from the day to day, 522 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 2: when you can think more holistically about your company and 523 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 2: what the goals are, and what the trajectory is, and 524 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 2: what the hiring plan is. I find that if I'm 525 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 2: in the day to day, it's really easy to miss 526 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 2: the forest for the trees. So yeah, I usually take 527 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 2: I usually do it somewhere that's slightly remote, be it 528 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,719 Speaker 2: Joshua tree or Yosemite, but so relatively accessible. 529 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: And like, how do you structure the wake? Are the 530 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: questions or tasks or things that you bring in to 531 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: guide you? 532 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely. 533 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 2: One of the consequences of keeping such a rigorous calendar 534 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 2: is I actually I have my next think week planned, 535 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 2: and I already have all of the days blocked off 536 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 2: for the things that I'll be working on those weeks. 537 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 2: As ideas come up and I realize that I am 538 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 2: not going to have time to rethink the primary business 539 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 2: model of the company, I'll jump ahead to my next 540 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 2: think week in my calendar and block off a whole 541 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 2: day to just think about business model. Or if it's 542 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 2: for something completely unrelated, something like a personal thing that 543 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 2: I want to reflect on, I can block off a 544 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 2: wholiday for that. So I would say that it's they're 545 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 2: usually mostly structured in advance of even getting there. 546 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: Now, on the topic of health, what are some of 547 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: your habits or retains or things that you do that 548 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: help you stay healthy? 549 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 2: A lot of it comes to do with it has 550 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 2: to do with diet, which is not surprising. I try 551 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,399 Speaker 2: to avoid sugar, That's really the big one. I try 552 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 2: to avoid sugar and refined carbohydrates, but sugar is really 553 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 2: the big one. I go on a lot of walks 554 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 2: pre COVID. I think I averaged something like ten miles 555 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 2: per day of walking. I would take a lot of 556 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 2: my calls on walks. Most people would do zooms and 557 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 2: I would mostly do walks. I found that that's just 558 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 2: a really good way of getting steps and staying active. 559 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 2: I also really focus a lot on sleep. I try 560 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 2: to get a minimum of eight hours of sleep a night, 561 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:46,320 Speaker 2: which is surprising to some people, but I think sleep 562 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 2: is incredibly important, especially when you're doing strategy work or 563 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 2: deep focused work. Being well rested it makes such a 564 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 2: huge impact on my ability to perform. 565 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,280 Speaker 1: And I've heard that you're having less coffee these days 566 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:03,240 Speaker 1: and more tea. 567 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 3: Is that correct? 568 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:06,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm trying to cut back. 569 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 2: I go through these cycles where I start with one 570 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 2: cup of coffee and that becomes. 571 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 4: Three, which becomes five. 572 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,720 Speaker 2: When you start getting to the point where you're measuring 573 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 2: caffeine consumption and grams and not milligrams, that's when you 574 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 2: know that it's time to cut back. So yeah, I've 575 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 2: I still have the habitual crutch of a warm liquid, 576 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 2: so I've been trying to switch to ginger tea and 577 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 2: other types of green tea that have less caffeine. But 578 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,240 Speaker 2: I go through these cycles and it's funny. I remember 579 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 2: the last time I completely went off of caffeine for 580 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,399 Speaker 2: probably a month, and then I had my first cup 581 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 2: of coffee from a Starbucks and I remembered that caffeine 582 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 2: is definitely a drug. It is a very different feeling 583 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,280 Speaker 2: when you have caffeine having not had it for a month, 584 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 2: and it's like, WHOA, this is a potent substance. But 585 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 2: when you're addicted to it and you just have it 586 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 2: every day, it's a sort of more of a habit. 587 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 3: That's so true. 588 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: Now I want to talk about levels, and I'm fascinated 589 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: by the Levels patch. And I will preface this by 590 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,240 Speaker 1: saying I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes 591 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: to health. So something I did a few years ago 592 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: when I discovered a company called day two, And I'm 593 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 1: sure you're very familiar with them, but for those that 594 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 1: are not, Day two is essentially a company that draws 595 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: on a lot of research that suggests that individuals have 596 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: very different responses to the same kind of food. 597 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 3: So if you take. 598 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: Something like white bread versus sourdough bread. Most people would 599 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 1: assume that your blood glucose levels would spike after the 600 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 1: white bread and not after the sourdough bread. But in 601 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: fact it depends completely on the individual and I found 602 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: that fascinating. And so day two then take your blood 603 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: test data and they get a pooh sample and from 604 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 1: there they're able to predict using I imagine, what are 605 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: quite sophisticated algorithms, what every individual's person response will be 606 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,280 Speaker 1: to certain types of food. But couldn't get it in Australia. 607 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: So I spent two weeks. I got a little finger 608 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: pricking diabetes KIP from the chemist and I pricked my 609 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: fingers or a finger, although I probably went through all 610 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,280 Speaker 1: ten of them by the end of the two weeks 611 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,240 Speaker 1: every half an hour to measure what my blood glucose 612 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: response was to different types of food, so that I 613 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: could eliminate that spike and have better energy. But what 614 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,879 Speaker 1: you are working on does that in a much easier way. 615 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: So can you talk about what this patch is? 616 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. So we use a lot of the we 617 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 2: use off the shelf continuous glucose monitors. They're manufactured by 618 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 2: Abbot and Dex. Colm They've been on the market for 619 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,359 Speaker 2: quite some time for diabetes management, and what they do 620 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 2: is they give you a real time stream of your 621 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 2: glucose data. It's a patch that sits on arm, so 622 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 2: it makes it such that you don't need to do 623 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,359 Speaker 2: the finger pricks and you get a much more comprehensive 624 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 2: data set, so you can actually one of the challenges 625 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 2: of using a finger prick is that you can often 626 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 2: miss the entire peak of the spike, and so you 627 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 2: don't capture all of the data and you might miss 628 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 2: the actual response. So we use that to show you 629 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 2: how different dietary choices, be it potatoes or aspher or 630 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 2: I guess, how these different choices that you're making are 631 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 2: affecting both your long term health but also really how 632 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 2: you feel. My big learning for my own personal life 633 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 2: was how closely tied my energy levels were to my 634 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 2: glucose wings and how a lot of the things that 635 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,399 Speaker 2: I was doing that I assumed were really healthy, specifically 636 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 2: steel cutops and oatmeal for basically my entire life. I've 637 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:59,320 Speaker 2: been told that oatmeal is the healthiest breakfast. And I 638 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 2: think it was the first or second day I was 639 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 2: wearing a glucose monitor I had this just a twelve 640 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,720 Speaker 2: o'clock crash, and I checked my levels and my blood 641 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 2: sugar had spiked into ranges that healthy people are not 642 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 2: supposed to be able to see, and I had crashed 643 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:20,240 Speaker 2: into deep hypoglycemia, and looking up the symptoms of hypoglycemia, 644 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 2: I was having shaky hands, feeling tired, and unable to focus, 645 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 2: and it was just this recognition that all of these 646 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 2: things are just hypoglycemia. And it was called a post 647 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 2: perennial crash when your blood sugar goes up really high 648 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 2: and then your body produces a bunch of insulin to 649 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 2: counteract that, and it often overcorrects, even up with low glucose, 650 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,399 Speaker 2: and that's when you start feeling really weird. So that's 651 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 2: the core of the product is using really a lot 652 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 2: of different data points, starting with glucose, to try to 653 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 2: model the way that your body responds to different choices 654 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 2: so you can live out a healthier life. 655 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,839 Speaker 1: Are there any other gadgets or health devices that you 656 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: use to track data or live a healthier life. 657 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 2: I've used the Aura ring for sleep tracking. I don't 658 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 2: use it currently, but I've used it before and that 659 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 2: was a really helpful tool. It gives you, I would 660 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,919 Speaker 2: say the biggest learning that I had from Aura. It's 661 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 2: interesting how you can read something on the internet and 662 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 2: it's very different to experience it in data. I've read 663 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,960 Speaker 2: that having alcohol before bed is bad for sleep quality. 664 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,840 Speaker 2: It's a very different thing to see it reflected in 665 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 2: the data, having like two glasses of wine, and then 666 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 2: you look at your data and the ring knows based 667 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 2: on your heart rate, based on the number of times 668 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 2: you tossed and turned, just how bad it actually is. 669 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:53,760 Speaker 2: So I've reduced my alcohol consumption, which already wasn't very high, 670 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,800 Speaker 2: but to pretty close to zero. I will I'll probably 671 00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 2: have a couple units of alcohol a month at this point. 672 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 2: It's just it's not worth it for me. 673 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 3: Now. 674 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,359 Speaker 1: I know that levels is not available in Australia at 675 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 1: the moment. 676 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 2: What's the timings on that, Yeah, hopefully as soon as 677 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 2: humanly possible. We're still in beta. We probably will be 678 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 2: until I'm hoping sometime in Q three of twenty twenty one. 679 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,400 Speaker 2: We actually brought on Josh mor who was the general 680 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 2: manager of Uber New York, to help lead international expansion, 681 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,240 Speaker 2: and I think Canada, UK Australia are the first countries 682 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,839 Speaker 2: we're looking at to expand to, so I would say 683 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,279 Speaker 2: optimistically sometime the end of this year, probably sometime next year. 684 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,040 Speaker 1: And for guests that are keen to connect with you 685 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 1: and Levels in some way, what is the best way 686 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:49,720 Speaker 1: for people to do that right now? 687 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:50,399 Speaker 4: Yeah? 688 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,440 Speaker 2: So our I would say the best place to get 689 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 2: information on metabolic health is the Levels blog is levelshealth 690 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,719 Speaker 2: dot com slash blog. I'm on Twitter at Sam Corcos. 691 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 2: We can also follow us on social media at Levels 692 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 2: on Instagram and on Twitter. 693 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: Amazing, Sam, It's been absolutely fascinating chatting with you and 694 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 1: just how deeply you think about all things productivity and 695 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: managing your time. So thank you so much for giving 696 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: me some of your time in your calendar. 697 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 3: I've just loved our chat absolutely. That is it. For 698 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:24,359 Speaker 3: today's show. 699 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,799 Speaker 1: Next week on How I Work, I'm very excited to 700 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 1: have Gary Meagan, ex Master Chef judge. We talk about 701 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: all sorts of things, including his top tips for the kitchen, 702 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: through to bouncing back from challenging times, which Gary has 703 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,279 Speaker 1: had a bit of experience with. If you're keen to 704 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: hear that interview, hit subscribe or follow wherever you're listening 705 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,399 Speaker 1: to this show from How I Work is produced by 706 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. The produce 707 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: so for this episode was Jenna Koda, and thank you 708 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 1: to Martin Imba who did the audio mix and makes 709 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,319 Speaker 1: everything sound awesome. See you next time.