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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, as I read this email, my first thing for

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Speaker 2: this mom is let this little boy be rough and tumble,

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Speaker 2: let him play rough tag games, get him involved in

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Speaker 2: soccer or footy, but not in a formalized way.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom

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Speaker 1: and dad Kylie.

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Speaker 2: Most tuesdays we do our best to answer listen to questions.

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Speaker 2: Today is no different. We're going to do that. Let's

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Speaker 2: dive into it. I'm going to get you to read

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Speaker 2: today's question, which comes from a Happy Family's member who says.

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Speaker 3: Well, this is going to be fun. I don't have

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Speaker 3: my glasses on today. Holy smokes. All right, I've been

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Speaker 3: listening to your podcast for a few years now and

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Speaker 3: love it. Thank you for making me a better parent.

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Speaker 3: I need some tips to help my six year old

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Speaker 3: son to make better decisions in the playground at school.

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Speaker 3: He's hanging around a few boys that like to play

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Speaker 3: rough tag games. We've talked to him a lot about

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Speaker 3: what makes a good friend, being kind, our family values,

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Speaker 3: but honestly, I feel nothing is making a significant difference.

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Speaker 3: I have emailed as teacher to discuss a plan on

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Speaker 3: how we can work together so all the children can

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Speaker 3: make better choices and treat each other more respectfully. To

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Speaker 3: be honest, I would prefer if he didn't hang out

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Speaker 3: with these kids, but he likes running around. He's got

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Speaker 3: a lot of energy and he will always encounter these

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Speaker 3: kinds of kids throughout his whole schooling. We've also encouraged

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Speaker 3: playing football, soccer, etc. Instead, but he hasn't found a

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Speaker 3: sport he likes at this stage. Last term he tried

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Speaker 3: focusing on one task egs stepping back when things are

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Speaker 3: getting rough, no pushing, but as you are well aware,

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Speaker 3: when things get out of control, high emotions, low intelligence.

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Speaker 3: She said, sorry, it's a long one.

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Speaker 2: Well, I love these emails and the opportunity that we

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Speaker 2: have to make a difference. I'm perplexed by a couple

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Speaker 2: of things in this one, so I'm going to step

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Speaker 2: through a couple of ideas and obviously we'll go backwards

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Speaker 2: some fords with some help from this mum. First thing

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Speaker 2: that you didn't mention is that she's been listening to

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Speaker 2: all of our resources and books slowly, and I just

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Speaker 2: wanted to highlight that you can listen to it on

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Speaker 2: one and a half speed, you can get throw it

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Speaker 2: away faster. I'm just putting it out there. I listen

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Speaker 2: to everything I want to point five.

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Speaker 3: You've been listening to things on one point three quarters.

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Speaker 3: How do you say that.

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Speaker 2: One point seven five?

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Speaker 3: Well, it doesn't have one point seven five mind sets

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Speaker 3: one and three quarters.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one point seventy five. Yeah, But I listened to

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Speaker 2: the really important stuff and some even seeing you on two,

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Speaker 2: that's right. And when I listen to our podcast on

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Speaker 2: normal speed, which I very infrequently do, but every now

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Speaker 2: and again, how slow is it? I think to myself,

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Speaker 2: I wonder if I really speak that slow down.

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Speaker 3: Good?

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Speaker 2: Because when I listen to our podcast, I usually listen

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Speaker 2: to it on one point five. So if you're doing that,

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Speaker 2: we don't mind. Don't mind all So for this, for

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Speaker 2: this Happy Families member and listener, please it's okay. You

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Speaker 2: don't have to listen to them slowly. Okay, let's talk

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Speaker 2: about something serious here now. I'm eating this just on

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Speaker 2: face value initially, and I love the care and concern

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Speaker 2: that this mum has shared. But what I'm really concerned

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Speaker 2: about is that there is a feminization of our society.

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Speaker 2: Over time. There's been a lot of noise made over

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Speaker 2: the last little while about toxic masculinity, which I have

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Speaker 2: massive problems with, massive problems. The idea that half the

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Speaker 2: population on the planet could be considered toxic is just

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Speaker 2: so diabolically offensive to me. It's so appalling. There are

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Speaker 2: obviously some people who have some issues that we need

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Speaker 2: to work with, and plenty of toxic beliefs, but that

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Speaker 2: doesn't make half of the population toxic. So I found

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Speaker 2: this article. It's by a guy who's sometimes fairly provocative.

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Speaker 2: His name's David French, and he just made one really

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Speaker 2: important point. He said, our society is unlearning masculinity. It's

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Speaker 2: feminizing every stage of male life, and boys are paying

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Speaker 2: a steep price.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, when I was in my late teens,

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Speaker 3: it was all about the snag, right.

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Speaker 2: Sensitive new age guy. Yeah that I so badly wanted

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Speaker 2: to be a snag. And I don't know why. I mean,

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Speaker 2: come on.

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Speaker 3: Because girls wanted a snag. Girls wanted a male they

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Speaker 3: could talk to.

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Speaker 2: And this is the interesting thing. Now there's there's tremendous

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Speaker 2: overlap between males and females, but only at the extremes

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Speaker 2: extreme loves and the extreme highs. We know that boys

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Speaker 2: and girls are different.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: There are some authors like Lisa Elliott and Cordelia Fine

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Speaker 2: who have written books like the Delusions of Gender and

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Speaker 2: Pink Brain, Blue Brain, and there's been some more recent

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Speaker 2: ones come out as well that I found compelling and fascinating,

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Speaker 2: but ultimately not consistently. What the very best and most

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Speaker 2: responsible research shows, and what that research shows is this

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Speaker 2: boys compared to girls, they use their bodies differently, they

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Speaker 2: act differently, and it's not just socialization. There's this hormone.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how many endochronologists are out there, but

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Speaker 2: the hormone testosterone dominates and divides the way we live

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Speaker 2: our lives, both for males and females. And I think

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Speaker 2: the easiest example of this when you go down to

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Speaker 2: the beach, as I mean, we live fairly close to

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Speaker 2: the beach now, which is just such a treat, and

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Speaker 2: when you go down to the beach on a hot day,

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Speaker 2: you see a whole lot of I don't know, teenagers

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Speaker 2: and young adults and families down on the beach, and

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Speaker 2: invariably you see the females of our species laying on

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Speaker 2: the sand looking at their phones, reading a book, sun baking,

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Speaker 2: maybe going for a gentle swim. They'll go down to

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Speaker 2: the waves, they'll wade into the water, they'll go through

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Speaker 2: a little swim, and then they'll come back to the

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Speaker 2: tow Now again I'm being really reductionist and stereotypical, but

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Speaker 2: I watched this happen every single day, and it's rare

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Speaker 2: that I see an exception. But when you see the boys, Kylie.

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Speaker 3: They jump through those waves, they tackle each other before

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Speaker 3: they've even made it. That's knee deep like you.

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Speaker 2: And they're on the sand throwing balls around or playing cricket,

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Speaker 2: or wrestling with each other and trying to pin each

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Speaker 2: other on the sand, flicking each other with towels, and

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Speaker 2: the girls are like, would you stop it? Would you

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Speaker 2: just sit down? Would you calm down? And it's the

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Speaker 2: same in the school, in the classroom, it's the same

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Speaker 2: across the board. And I think, while I find David

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Speaker 2: French sometimes far too provocative and over the top, this

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Speaker 2: idea that we are making masculinity problematic, I think there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of evidence for it if you look for it.

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Speaker 3: I know that Maggie Dan has been, you know, very

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Speaker 3: very vocal in I guess being a champion for boys

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Speaker 3: in the in the classroom.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and letting them riggle and move and exercise during

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Speaker 2: the day and use their bodies.

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Speaker 3: I think about the schooling experience I had as a

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Speaker 3: young child. We were allowed to climb trees, like I'm

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Speaker 3: talking like massive pine trees that would be considered two

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Speaker 3: or three stories high. We had this amazing tree down

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Speaker 3: the back of the school, and it was right down

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Speaker 3: the back of the school, and to get there you

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Speaker 3: actually had to go down this massive, like massive ditch,

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Speaker 3: like it was huge, and we were to roll down

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Speaker 3: that hill at full speed, go on over bumps and

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Speaker 3: all kinds of things to get to the bottom. And

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Speaker 3: then we'd spend our lunch break climbing this tree. Because

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Speaker 3: we had been.

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Speaker 2: Girls, those sounds like girls and boys were doing this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. We had Each branch was a different bedroom with

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Speaker 3: a house.

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Speaker 2: Which I love that you've said that as well, because

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying that girls don't do these things. There's

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Speaker 2: plenty of evidence that lots and lots of girls like to,

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Speaker 2: but on average, there is there is such a strong

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Speaker 2: research evidence base to highlight there is a difference between

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Speaker 2: the way boys and girls are going to like boys

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Speaker 2: just bump into things, bump into each other. They use

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Speaker 2: their bodies more. And that's the central thing that I

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Speaker 2: wanted to highlight and response to this email. We've got

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Speaker 2: a mum who's saying, my little guy, he's really active.

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Speaker 2: He's playing rough tag games, and I don't like it

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Speaker 2: because we've got these values about being kind and being

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Speaker 2: a good friend, these family values, and I feel like

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Speaker 2: when he's playing these rough tag games, he's hanging around

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Speaker 2: with kids that they see the world differently, and that's

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Speaker 2: not how I want him to be.

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Speaker 3: Well, I guess that's kind of I was going with.

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Speaker 3: My story is just this acknowledgment that what do our

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Speaker 3: boys have these days in the playground. They've taken away

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Speaker 3: the ability to climb trees. How many times have our

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Speaker 3: kids come home and said their band handball? I know,

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Speaker 3: like every time boys and girls, but specifically our boys,

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Speaker 3: who need to be using their body so much more,

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Speaker 3: find some kind of avenue to get all of those

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Speaker 3: wriggles out. Inevitably, school's ban it.

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Speaker 2: As I read this email, my first thing for this

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Speaker 2: mum is let this little boy be rough and tumble,

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Speaker 2: Let him play rough tag games. Get him involved in

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Speaker 2: soccer or footy or rock climbing. But he's only seen

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad you said that, because as I was

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Speaker 2: saying it, I was like, hey, I said, well, let's

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Speaker 2: wind this back. I just remembered he's he's only six.

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Speaker 2: So there's a couple of other things to highlight here

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Speaker 2: from a developmental point of view, things like impulse control,

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Speaker 2: behavior regulation, emotion regulation. He's only six, so our expectations

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Speaker 2: shouldn't be that high. We certainly want him to be respectful,

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Speaker 2: but he's going to need lots of reminders and lots

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Speaker 2: of coaching and lots of training because he won't be

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Speaker 2: inhibiting particularly well our job. Like you think about it,

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Speaker 2: six years old, how long does it take a kid

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Speaker 2: to learn to write their name? Or the time I was.

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Speaker 3: Actually thinking more about an adult who, at twenty one

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Speaker 3: kept leaving his socks underneath the dining room table every

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Speaker 3: night when we had dinner.

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Speaker 2: You're talking about me, maybe.

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Speaker 3: And it took you probably maybe four or five years

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Speaker 3: to stop doing that.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So in my defense, now this is weird. But

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Speaker 2: when I sit at the dining table and I'm eating

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Speaker 2: and I've got my shoes and socks on my feet

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Speaker 2: get really hot as I take my shoes and socks

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Speaker 2: off under the table.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but then how come it took you five years

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Speaker 3: to learn to pick them up and put them away?

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Speaker 2: Well, because I needed to be reminded. And I know

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Speaker 2: we're going here because we've got a six year old

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Speaker 2: who's having a hard time always being respectful and who

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Speaker 2: is sometimes perhaps using his body in ways that parents

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Speaker 2: aren't okay with. And if it takes a grown man

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Speaker 2: like me that long tie and how to pick up

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Speaker 2: my socks from undernath the dining table because my feet

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Speaker 2: get hot while I'm eating my meal, which I know

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Speaker 2: sounds really weird, and people are probably wondering what we're

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Speaker 2: just closing this. It's going to take a long time

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Speaker 2: for a six year old to figure this stuff out.

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Speaker 3: I know that as a parent it is just exhausting,

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Speaker 3: it really is it really to be going through the

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Speaker 3: same thing with our children. But the reality is every

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Speaker 3: time we have an opportunity to build on previous experience,

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Speaker 3: we're helping them learn and grow.

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Speaker 2: And it's that metaphor of play by play. When you're

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Speaker 2: on the sporting field, you don't try to score on

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Speaker 2: every play, you just keep on trying to move the

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Speaker 2: ball down the field, move the ball down the court,

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Speaker 2: move the ball in the direction where you've got to.

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Speaker 2: That's where you eventually score. And you don't have to

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Speaker 2: do it on every single play. You don't have to

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Speaker 2: try to score. What you do is you just you

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Speaker 2: complete your sets of six, or you complete your passes,

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Speaker 2: you wind down the shop clock, whatever game you're playing,

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Speaker 2: you move the ball towards the place that you score

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Speaker 2: by bit by bit. And with a six year old,

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Speaker 2: that's exactly what we're trying to do.

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Speaker 3: I remember having a conversation with one of my friends

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Speaker 3: and she just said that when she is kind of

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Speaker 3: helping her children navigate her friendships and play situations, one

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Speaker 3: of the things that she emphasizes is how is everybody

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Speaker 3: in the group enjoying the experience?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Beautiful?

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Speaker 3: You know, kind of taking the perspective of the other

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Speaker 3: people because in those moments, I'm having lots of fun.

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Speaker 3: But if my friend starts crying because I've bashed into

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Speaker 3: it them, but even by accident, then how is that

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Speaker 3: person feeling? And is this game actually a good game

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Speaker 3: to be playing right now?

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Speaker 2: And that's a really powerful way to build empathy, even

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Speaker 2: in a six year old, because it teaches them to

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Speaker 2: be not just self aware, but socially aware, and that's

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Speaker 2: the one thing that six year olds really lack. Now,

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Speaker 2: this will be something that they will develop as they mature.

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Speaker 2: It's part of the growing up process. And somewhere around

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Speaker 2: about the age of let's say seven, eight nine, when

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Speaker 2: we're in there, they'll usually start to get a handle

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Speaker 2: on it. But we also see in de climb massively,

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Speaker 2: especially in boys, from about the age of twelve or thirteen,

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Speaker 2: empathy drops. It's around about the same time that testosterone

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Speaker 2: kicks up to the point where it's twenty or thirty

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Speaker 2: times more than what a girl has in her system.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's an enormous change for the boy as

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Speaker 2: he moves into puberty. There are two other things that

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Speaker 2: I think we need to talk about here that have

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Speaker 2: come out of this email, and we'll do it fairly briefly.

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Speaker 2: The first one is where Mum says.

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Speaker 3: She'd prefer that he didn't play with those kids.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, my son's always going to encounter these sorts

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Speaker 2: of children throughout his schooling, but I prefer that he

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Speaker 2: wasn't hanging out with these kids. One of my friends

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Speaker 2: a guy that I'm hoping to one day write a

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Speaker 2: book with, Christopher Niemick. He's at the University of Rochester

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Speaker 2: in upstate New York, and he did a fascinating research

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Speaker 2: project a few years ago with a couple of his

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Speaker 2: colleagues out of Belgium, Martin Vanstein, Kista and but And

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Speaker 2: they looked at the forbidden fruit of forbidden friendships. And

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Speaker 2: what they basically found was that the more the parents said, hey,

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Speaker 2: don't play with those kids over there, guess what the

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Speaker 2: kids were like, Actually, I'm going to And the more

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Speaker 2: the parents just said, what makes a good friend, how's

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Speaker 2: everyone enjoying the experience, what's it like when you're with them,

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Speaker 2: what's it like when other people are with them? The

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Speaker 2: more parents just I guess, supported their autonomy, but also

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Speaker 2: built some empathy there as they tried to see things

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Speaker 2: through their kids' eyes, but help their kids to see

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Speaker 2: things through the eyes of others, build that social awareness.

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Speaker 2: They found that kids made more pro social friendship choices.

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Speaker 3: So we've experienced that in our home. You know, there

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Speaker 3: have been many times we've been concerned about the kinds

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Speaker 3: of friendships that our children were making. But even just recently,

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Speaker 3: you know, we had an opportunity to have some kids

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Speaker 3: in our house and I just felt like these were

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Speaker 3: not the kind of kids I wanted my children hanging around.

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Speaker 3: But we've never told our kids they can't. We've always

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Speaker 3: tried to give them autonomy around their friendships. We've had

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Speaker 3: open discussions and we've shared our concerns at different times,

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Speaker 3: but we've always tried to allow them to have that choice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really about, hey, what did you notice. Here's

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Speaker 2: what we're noticing. Have you picked up on that as well?

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Speaker 2: What are your thoughts around that? How's everyone feeling about this?

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Speaker 2: What do you think we should do?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? And it was interesting because after that experience, I

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Speaker 3: sat down with our daughter and talked to her about

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Speaker 3: what I had noticed and asked her if she'd noticed

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Speaker 3: any of the same things. We really weren't on the

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Speaker 3: same page. She was very pro her friends and felt

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Speaker 3: like everything was fine. So I left it and just

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Speaker 3: allowed her to continue those friendships. And over the next

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Speaker 3: few months, just little things started peeking her curiosity, and

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Speaker 3: within that few months she came to me one day

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Speaker 3: and she just said, you know, Mum, I have decided

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Speaker 3: that I really don't want to be around these people anymore.

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Speaker 3: They don't make me feel good. I had been watching it,

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Speaker 3: literally watching it, but.

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Speaker 2: It didn't happen. After that first conversation.

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Speaker 3: SHO she needs did time, but she also needed the

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Speaker 3: rose colored glasses to be taken off so that she

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Speaker 3: could see what was right there. And we've had lots

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Speaker 3: of opportunities over the years to have those conversations. But

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Speaker 3: I think it's important that kids have the autonomy to

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Speaker 3: make friends.

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Speaker 2: So the last thing that I want to highlight from

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Speaker 2: this email is just that we've got a mum here

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Speaker 2: who's saying we're encouraging our son to play football and soccer,

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Speaker 2: but he hasn't found a sport that he likes at

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Speaker 2: this stage. And obviously that ties in a lot with

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Speaker 2: the whole let's get the kids active. But for me,

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Speaker 2: right now, it's about unstructured play. It's about building social

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Speaker 2: relationships and friendships, getting down to the park, down to

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Speaker 2: the beach, riding bikes, playing ball sports, but not in

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Speaker 2: a formalized way. When I look at all of the

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Speaker 2: very best research around this, I don't see any advantage

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Speaker 2: at all to getting kids involved in organized sport at

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Speaker 2: the age of six. I just think it's too young.

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Speaker 2: It puts too much pressure on them. It brings a

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Speaker 2: competitive element in before they've developed competence. And if you

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Speaker 2: don't have the competence and capability and now you've got

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Speaker 2: to score and you've got to beat the other people

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Speaker 2: and you're trying to get the participation trophy or the

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Speaker 2: end of the year grand final, it just it's not

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Speaker 2: quite right. That's not what we want to be doing.

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Speaker 2: So I would be saying this, Mum, continue to build relationships.

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Speaker 2: Watch the kids when they play in the backyard or

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Speaker 2: down at the park. Watch what's happening when you take

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Speaker 2: them down to the local play center and they're doing

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Speaker 2: something in an unstructured way there, because those are the

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Speaker 2: activities where you're going to really see what's going on

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Speaker 2: and you'll have those teaching opportunities. In short, we've got

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Speaker 2: a little boy who wants to play, wants to be active,

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Speaker 2: wants to be involved, and he's kind of like our

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Speaker 2: puppy Kylie, just doesn't know how to hold himself back

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Speaker 2: just yet. Our puppy. She sees the open gate and

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Speaker 2: she runs for it. She's like, free them, let me

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Speaker 2: add it. And a few times she's escaped and things

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Speaker 2: have gotten out of hand, we had to chase it

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Speaker 2: down the road and bring it back. It's a bit

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Speaker 2: like that with a little boy age six or seven,

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Speaker 2: limb regulation limited in an ambition, just wants to use

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Speaker 2: his body and be rough and tumble and be into everything,

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Speaker 2: and every now and again things go a little bit

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Speaker 2: too far, and as parents we've got to chase him

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Speaker 2: down the road, pick them up, bring him back home,

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Speaker 2: and have another conversation with them and help them to

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Speaker 2: bit by bit work it all out. So we hope

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Speaker 2: that well definitely food for thought, not the usual soft

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Speaker 2: and cut kind of advice that we give in one

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Speaker 2: of these conversations, but I think that as a good

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Speaker 2: reminder for parents of boys that they do need to

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Speaker 2: have these opportunities to be a little bit more what's

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Speaker 2: the word exuberant? I love it. The Happy Family podcast

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Speaker 2: is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce

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Speaker 2: is our executive producer, and if you'd like more info

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Speaker 2: about making your family happy, we would love for you

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Speaker 2: to visit us at Happy families dot com dot au. Oh.

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Speaker 2: Also a quick reminder next Monday Night, Big webinar. Can't

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Speaker 2: wait to share it with you. The Parenting Revolution all

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Speaker 2: about my brand new book. We've got the webinar of

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Speaker 2: the same name. It's like The Parenting Revolution, the book,

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Speaker 2: the webinar. That's like High School Musical, the musical, the

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Speaker 2: series but never mind, that's happening next Monday night. If

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Speaker 2: your ticket for the webinar wherever you would normally find

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Speaker 2: its Happy Families dot com, dot you, or on our

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Speaker 2: Facebook page, Doctor Justin Coulson's Happy Families