1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,160 Speaker 1: Not seen by any of my colleagues, but I would 2 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: get to Friday absolutely wiped from the level of masking 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: required to be an autistic woman in workplaces around that time. 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 2: That's Shari klonan founder and CEO of The Digital Picnic, 5 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 2: who's been running her business for over eleven years and 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 2: was diagnosed with autism as an adult. I followed Shari's 7 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 2: work now for a couple of years, and I have 8 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 2: been blown away just by how honestly she speaks about 9 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 2: what it's like to be a CEO and business founder 10 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 2: with autism, and how she's built one of the most 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 2: neuroinclusive workplaces in Australia. And for those reasons, I was 12 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 2: so keen to invite her to be on How I Work. 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 2: In this episode, we chat about work energy and what 14 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 2: happens when you've spent years quietly pushing through environments that 15 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 2: were never designed for you, and by the end you 16 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: will have clearer language for talking about and understanding neurodivergence 17 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 2: and why some workplaces feel completely exhausting even when you're 18 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 2: doing everything right. We also go deep into Shari's hardest 19 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 2: year in business and the non negotiables she built around 20 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 2: her culture Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, 21 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,559 Speaker 2: and strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor 22 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 2: Amantha imber Shari. I want to start by talking about 23 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 2: autism because you were diagnosed as an adult, and I 24 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: read that you described the experience, and I want to 25 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 2: get this right, like taking your bra off after a 26 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 2: long day, totally relate. I want to note, like what 27 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: nature seek out a diagnosis as an adult. 28 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: Honestly, I think mine is. I thought it was interesting story, 29 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: but I'm learning how boring and predictable it really is 30 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: for women, which is that my son went first, so 31 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: he was flagged at school and I think he was 32 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: roughly around age eight at the time. Went through the 33 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: diagnosis process, and then the neurosych sort of turned to 34 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: my husband and I and said, look, generally speaking, it 35 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 1: kind doesn't skip a generation. So has this sort of 36 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: assessment process. Have you asked any questions of yourselves, you know, 37 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: throughout this process? And I realized later on that was 38 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: her very polite wave, probably trying to reach out to me, 39 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: and so yeah, I was like, it's me, And so 40 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: I went through the process myself after him. I chose 41 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: not to go with her. I wanted to find someone 42 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: who specialized in autistic women and high masking autistic women. 43 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 1: And I learned through that process that I'm the kid 44 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: that gets missed because I grew up with an undiagnosed 45 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: solo parent autistic dad, where all of our quirks were 46 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: just normalized. I couldn't relate to people who have really 47 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: bright lights on in a home all the time, or 48 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: you know, just yeah, I just had a really different 49 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: kind of childhood where you know, just everything was neuroaffirming 50 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: and celebratory, and I didn't feel pathologized because I was 51 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: just so well accommodated for. 52 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 2: How about as an adult, though, like living in a world. 53 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 2: You know, I guess things have changed a lot in 54 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 2: the last few years, but you're living in a world 55 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: that's not necessarily designed for neurodivergent adults. Like what were 56 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 2: some of the big friction points or signs that you 57 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 2: were going to get an autism diagnosis. 58 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: I think the biggest way that I feel this world 59 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: isn't designed for me is I think I'm such a 60 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: decent human being. I should probably have a larger friendship 61 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: group than I do, but I don't because that's been 62 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: my autistic experience where I'm just not for everyone. I'm 63 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: at peace with that now. I just moved through the 64 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: world differently. I am excessively judged, you know, and friendship 65 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: is really hard for me. I can't read the gray. 66 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: And I don't want to make this gender based, you know, 67 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: but there is a particular gender who struggles the very 68 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: most with sharing what they're uncomfortable with or just having 69 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: feedback convos or hard convos with a friend that can 70 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: just reset everything right then and there and squash any 71 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: resentment that might be building or just you know, boundary 72 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: oversteps or you know, things like that. And because of that, 73 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: I don't realize when I'm not showing up well enough 74 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: for a friend, and I just kind of I get unfriended. 75 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: I can just sometimes think, oh, I wonder how my 76 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: friend is going, and I'll log onto Facebook and I'm like, oh, okay, 77 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: well I'm unfriended. So that's just been my rite of 78 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: passage as an autistic woman from adolescent onwards. Is when 79 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: I knew I was different, and I used to think 80 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: it was because I was raised by a man, and 81 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,799 Speaker 1: so I wondered, am I not lovable by women because 82 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: I hit different, you know, Like I just I'm direct. 83 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: I say what I mean, and I mean what I say. 84 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: But I'm the biggest lover girl, and I'm such a 85 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: good friend to the people who allow me into their 86 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: little world. Like I love the way I love and 87 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: friendship with me is so warm and loving if I'm 88 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: given the chance, you know, to do that. But I'm 89 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: usually written off before we get to that. In a 90 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 1: circle space. Yeah, the friends that I do have three 91 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: and less, I just love them with my entire heart. 92 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: It's wonderful. 93 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 2: Thank you for sharing that. It makes me want to 94 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 2: be your friend. 95 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: Exacted. Please just start a great. 96 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 2: How about it work? And obviously, like you've run your 97 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 2: own business for I think eleven years, is that correct, 98 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 2: So in a way, like you can create your own 99 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 2: environment and experience in culture at work as a business owner. 100 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 2: But you know in past workplaces, and I guess before 101 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: your diagnosis, what were some of the things that made 102 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 2: work and your experience at work challenging? 103 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 1: I think it would be my comms style. It is direct, 104 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: and it was direct before there was even such a 105 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: thing as LinkedIn talking about how important feedback culture was 106 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: and so on. But for me, feedback culture has just 107 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: been suitable to my neurotype, you know, Like I love feedback. 108 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: I love to give it, but I especially love to 109 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: receive feedback. It feels like the most psychologically safe thing 110 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: that a person can do for me, So I guess yeah. Look, 111 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: challenges would be around being pulled up on really direct 112 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: comms styles, you know, and being told to sort of 113 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: scaffold more, you know, and things like that, and even 114 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: getting thrown into an etiquette program at one point, which 115 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: I've heard now one of my Today colleagues, you know, 116 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: had a very similar experience. I didn't think that was 117 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: an autistic woman's right of passage within workplaces. But for 118 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: the most part, I have to be really honest with you. 119 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: Less of the challenges for me, luckily, because all of 120 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: my autistic strengths show up really well in a workplace, especially, 121 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: you know, given the industry that I'm in. I'm a 122 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: really good storyteller, you know, I love stories, I love people. 123 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: I've got an autistic special interest in people, which is 124 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 1: really well suited to my industry. And then if you 125 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: find yourself in a leadership role, if you love people 126 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 1: and you've got a special interest in them, you're going 127 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: to have less of a shit time, you know, leading 128 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: people because you're just obsessed with them anyway. So I've 129 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: got off pretty lightly. Like I would say, the challenges 130 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: that I've had haven't been too difficult. I would say, 131 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: it's the level of masking that was required of me 132 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: in a world before COVID where we'd never heard of 133 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: work from home or yeah, that kind of thing. So 134 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: just less of the accommodations, and I would absolutely and 135 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: not seen by any of my colleagues, but I would 136 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: get to Friday just about catatonic, you know, just absolutely 137 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: wiped from the level of masking required to be an 138 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: autistic woman in workplaces around that time that era. 139 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, for those that haven't heard the term masking or 140 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 2: are not aware of what it means, can you give 141 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,559 Speaker 2: an example of a way that you had to mask 142 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 2: pre COVID. 143 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: For me, it's the level of intensity required with every interaction. 144 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: So if anyone just finds interactions, you know, like we 145 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: would all any new type would get to the end 146 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: of the day and say, wow, that was a back 147 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: to back meeting kind of day, like I'm cooked, you know, 148 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: But times that by four and neurodiversion, people often find 149 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: themselves having to mask so hard to read every interaction 150 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: and be sure that we've understood it correctly, and then 151 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: match that back and sometimes take a little less of 152 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: us off in the process because we're aware that where 153 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: and I say this in avert commas but sometimes too much, 154 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: or you know, whatever it is. I can give you 155 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: a non professional example that's more recent. But I went 156 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 1: to a wedding with my husband a couple of weeks ago, 157 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: and I just the level of masking required to just 158 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: be out socially at a wedding. I was so lucky 159 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: in that I love I'm a sober girly. So I 160 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: drove there and I love that for me. But I 161 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: kept walking to my car to sit in silence for 162 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: about ten minutes, and I probably had six sessions in 163 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: the car because masking for me is trying so hard 164 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: to conquer the DJ, the music I'm taking people in, 165 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: I'm trying to match them. Autistic women can be very chameleon, 166 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: you know. We don't mean to it, just it's just 167 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: our thing, you know. And then I'm also lip reading, 168 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: you know, because I have sensory challenges around taking and 169 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: what someone's saying. At the same time, as really loud 170 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: music is playing and it's just extra hard for me. 171 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: So I lip read a lot, and that's just so 172 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: much work. So I just had to kept I had 173 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: to keep sitting in the car, and I was like, 174 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: I felt like that viral meme of Ben Affleck when 175 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: he's got the cigarette. He's like, you know, he's outside 176 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: of brick home or something. I was just in that car, like, oh, 177 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: you know, just hook masking. Yeah. 178 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 2: I think about last night. I was at my eleven 179 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 2: year old daughter's primary school graduation party, and I would 180 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 2: say it was the least neurodivergent friendly night that anyone 181 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 2: could have designed. That the music was so loud, and 182 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 2: my daughter we probably spent two hours dancing very close 183 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 2: to lad speakers and we're driving home and she said, 184 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 2: what's that kind of beeping ringing sound and we and 185 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 2: we said, oh, is it like a road noise? And 186 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 2: she said no, it's like in my head. And I said, oh, 187 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 2: that's because you've been very close to the speakers for 188 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 2: two hours and m yeah, that was is it? Yeah? 189 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: Yeah? 190 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 2: Can you tell me about autism or what does that 191 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 2: mean for me? 192 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: I feel like the best analogy I can give is 193 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 1: I've just especially figured this out as I'm growing up 194 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: and becoming an aging autistic woman. The or never leaves, 195 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: and I just feel very childlike. I'm a forty two 196 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: year old woman. But I have to be honest with you. 197 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: I relate to children better than I can adults. It 198 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: feels very Peter Panny. I'm just hanging with the lost boys. 199 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: You know. I don't want to grow up because the 200 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: grown up things that I look at just seem so 201 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: bloody uninteresting to me. You know, I love being around 202 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 1: here kids because they're safe, they say what they mean 203 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 1: and mean what they say. They're fun, and they don't 204 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: become so bloody serious, you know, And so yeah, the 205 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: or like awe in. You know, autism for me is 206 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 1: just recognizing that I was never going to grow up 207 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: the same way that neurotypical peers were. You know, I 208 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: was still playing with dolls far beyond what was socially 209 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: acceptable because I just didn't want to give that up. 210 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: And I thought, back then, what's wrong with me? And 211 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: I remember my dad when I was around I can't 212 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: remember the exact age, but maybe fifteen or sixteen, he 213 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: pulled me aside and said hey, and he's honestly, he's 214 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: my best friend, but he's such an ally to every 215 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: marginalized group you could imagine. And he said, sure, is 216 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: there a chance you could be gay? Because if you are, 217 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: I want you to know that I love you so much. 218 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 1: And he just wanted me to feel safe to potentially 219 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: come out. And I said, Dad, why are you asking this, 220 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: Like I'm just curious, you know, And he said, because 221 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 1: you're not interested in boys, And I'm like, because I'm 222 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: not there yet, mate, you know, like I just even 223 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: when he asked me that I only had a crush 224 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: and it was Simba from the Lion King, you know, 225 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: literally the Lion, not Jonathan Taylor's honest yes, but you know, yeah, 226 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: I don't know if this is like what other autistic 227 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: women go through, but me, I'm at peace with how 228 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: slow I'm growing up, and I just love hanging on 229 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 1: to that childlike, you know, kind of peace, and I'm 230 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: not letting it go because I think it's my favorite 231 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: thing about me. And now my kids friends, I've heard 232 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: from their parents that I'm one of the faiths. You know. 233 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: I love hanging out with them, you know, I love. 234 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 2: Just they're just such a vibe you know, Ah, that's beautiful. 235 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: I love that. 236 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 2: Now I wouldn't know. We'll mentor record this interview at 237 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 2: the normal studios where I do my Melbourne interviews at 238 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 2: arn and we had shifted this couple of times and 239 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 2: now we're virtual because I think neither of us had 240 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 2: time to actually leave our respective workplaces and go to 241 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 2: a studio. I was actually thinking because the studio has 242 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 2: very bright lights and I guess you know it's because 243 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 2: we record video as well as audio, and the man 244 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 2: the aircon I think is broken and it's just like 245 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 2: way too high and before that was really hot in 246 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: the studio. Anyway, I would love to know because I 247 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 2: was thinking, you know, when we were booked to do 248 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 2: it there, just how comfortable or uncomfortable an environment it 249 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 2: would have been. So tell me about just the physical environment, 250 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 2: you know in in workplaces where like what makes for 251 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 2: a good physical environment and what makes for a really 252 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 2: uncomfortable one for you. 253 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: Well, to start with the recording studio from what you've described, like, yeah, 254 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: it would have been a little uncomfortable. But to be 255 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: so honest, like I can push through short term, not 256 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: that anyone should have to, but like I if I 257 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 1: want to be on a podcast, and if I know that, 258 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: I know what a podcast is. Bright lights, it's all 259 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: of the things that you've just described. I say to myself, Okay, 260 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: so one hour, and what am I going to do 261 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 1: on the other side of that one hour to look 262 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: after myself to reclaim the spoons lost through I don't 263 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: know glaring at a bright light for an hour or so. 264 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: So I think that's why self awareness as an autistic 265 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: person is so important. We need to know what quadrant 266 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: we sit in in terms of sensory preferences. I'm a 267 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 1: sensory avoidance so I just know how to look after 268 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: and reclaim spoons after an hour in a recording studio, 269 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: for example, But then to speak to your question, to 270 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: do that for seven point seventy five hours in a 271 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: workday not quite as easy. And so that's where employers 272 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: do need to step up, because we can't push through 273 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: for that long and expect that we're not going to 274 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: crumble at some point, you know. So I guess within 275 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: a workplace here where we're at, we're based in the 276 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: Docklands here in Melbourne. It's about as neural inclusive as 277 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: I can design it. There's still the bright fluorescent lights, 278 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: but we have been able to dim them and the 279 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: team can choose what level they'd prefer them, you know, 280 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: the lighting to be at. My dream is that we 281 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: just operate with all lights off. That's not possible. We tried, 282 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: but it was about two hundred thousand dollars with our 283 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: landlords to fix the whole lighting system, So damn it. 284 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: That's this little small business out of the equation. But 285 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: my dream is to work in darkness, but have lights 286 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: at each desk for people to choose their preference. And 287 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: then yeah, other things you've mentioned. I think the best 288 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: way I can answer this is for folks to probably 289 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: look into something called the Dunes model of processing. So 290 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: it's du double in and when you look into that, 291 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: you can literally figure out who's sitting where within your 292 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: own workplace. So I recommend that for all organizational leaders. 293 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: So there's four categories sensory seek, sensory avoid, sensory sensitive, 294 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: and so on, So four quadrants, and I like to 295 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: make sure that any workplace honors and has spaces for 296 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: people who sit in any of those categories, because if 297 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: we just applied a sensory avoidant lens, we're going to 298 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: make our sensory seekers incredibly unhappy. 299 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 2: You mentioned spoons, and I assume you're referring to spoon theory, 300 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 2: which I love. The people that haven't heard of that, 301 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 2: can you describe what that is, because I think it's 302 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 2: a really helpful way, you know, to think about our energy. 303 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's definitely loved by neurodiversent communities. But I 304 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: actually think that surely any human can probably relate to 305 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: this experience. Right, So it said that we wake up 306 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: with a particular amount of spoons, you know, each day, 307 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: and each little thing that we do might detract from that. 308 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: So it might be, honestly, maybe it's sitting in a 309 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: recording studio for an hour, staring into bright lights for 310 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: that entire time. It might cost you three spoons, you know. 311 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: It might be for me, maybe my husband really wants 312 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: me to get to that social thing with his work 313 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: that I'm not super keen to go to loud whatever 314 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: and so on, and so I've just cost myself six spoons. 315 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: Or it might be being thrown into a meeting without 316 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: an agenda, without a warning, not having felt like you 317 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: could prepare for that meeting, you know, and so on. 318 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: So I've just cost myself two spoons. Like the list 319 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: can go on and on right and ultimately we saw 320 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: of one to get to the end of the day 321 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: with spoons still in place. But if we have got 322 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: to a point where spoons are all out, we need 323 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: to find ways to reclaim spoons. So for me, that's 324 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 1: sitting in a particular spot in my home that I 325 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: love so much. Natural light just floods this particular room 326 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: and I'm a big natural daylight you know, seeker outer. 327 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: I love reading a book, you know, and just sitting 328 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: under a fluffy blanket my labridor kind of like right nearby. 329 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: And that's just for me a fast tracked way to 330 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: get my spoons back. So, yeah, spoon theory, I try 331 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: to picture what do my two neurodivergent kids start with, 332 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 1: what detracts from that, and how can I meet them 333 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 1: where they're needing their parents to meet them at by 334 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: the end of a school day or now we're in 335 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: end of term type sort of conversations, And so I 336 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: can tell you right now they're almost subspoon and I'm 337 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: just able to meet them where they're at the same 338 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: applies to your team. 339 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. A good friend of mine spent 340 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 2: a lot of his career training first and second year 341 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 2: doctors in hospitals, and he I think in like one 342 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 2: of the first lectures he would have with them, he 343 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 2: would talk about his own version of spoon theory, which 344 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 2: was orange theory, where he said, you know, you wake 345 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 2: up with twelve oranges, and if you're using all those 346 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 2: oranges at work, as many medical students do, then you 347 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 2: need to think about what impact that's having on your 348 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 2: at home life and your relationships. And I really love 349 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,880 Speaker 2: that framing, particularly for people that you know can get 350 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 2: really caught up in work and overwork, And yeah, I 351 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 2: think it's super helpful. We will be back in a 352 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 2: moment where Shari opens up about the hardest year of 353 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 2: her business life, the kind where optimism runs out, energy 354 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 2: hits zero, and you're still expected to walk into work 355 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 2: on Monday and inspire everyone else. We get into what 356 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 2: finally forced her into action, the cultural non negotiables she 357 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 2: rebuilt from scratch, and why she now protects energy more 358 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 2: fiercely than productivity. If you're looking for more tips to 359 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 2: improve the way you work, can live. I write a 360 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 2: short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that have 361 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 2: helped me personally. You can sign up for that at 362 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 2: Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. Now, you've written 363 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 2: very publicly about how the sort of twenty twenty one 364 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,719 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two period was your hardest time in business 365 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 2: in your eleven years as a business owner, and so 366 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 2: you've written a lot about it, and I find it 367 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,959 Speaker 2: really moving and I really resonated with a lot of it. 368 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 2: I've had, you know, in the I think I've been 369 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: doing a running inventing for about eighteen years, and I 370 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: can identify two really really tough years. One of them 371 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 2: was twenty twenty four. And I would read your words 372 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 2: and I would go, oh my god, I feel like 373 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 2: you're in my head. One of the things that you 374 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 2: wrote was you said, do you know how hard it 375 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 2: is to walk into your offices on a Monday and 376 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: inspire an entire team when you spent all weekend violently crying. 377 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 2: Can you tell me about what happened during that period? 378 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: Yes, the TLDR, but I promise Sola lash it out eldrs. 379 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: But if there was one single year where I could 380 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: have made one set of like it was basically one 381 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: really bad decision after another, and then I think the 382 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 1: worst thing that I did was the level of inaction 383 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: that I took on so many of the bad decisions 384 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: that I made and continued to make. I just I 385 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 1: was in a world of founder pain. I was the 386 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: saddest I've ever been in my entire life. I felt 387 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: invisible within my own organization. I felt bullied. I felt 388 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: like I had my own bullies on the pay run, 389 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 1: which is the worst feeling for a founder. It's a 390 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 1: level of grief you can't even try to describe unless 391 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: you've been in the air, you know, in the shoes 392 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: of you know that. And I know we can all 393 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: scroll onto LinkedIn and I've heard all of it. I 394 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: know that there are horrific stories out there with regards 395 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: to you know, employer bullies, but I can only speak 396 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 1: from experience here that actually, for me, it was the 397 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: other way around. I was just so minimized. I copped 398 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: the very typical discrimination that a lot of you know, 399 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 1: neurodiversent female founders cop I was even described in just 400 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: such derogatory ways where it would be like, oh, don't trustury, 401 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: she's rogue, or she's loose, or you know, just and 402 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: it's like, actually, folks, this is at the time a 403 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: nine ish year old business that has weathered some of 404 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: the biggest pandemic stores, and you would want some of 405 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: that rogue and that innovation and that, you know, just 406 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: what if we dot dot dot. So it was just 407 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 1: the saddest year of my whole life, and the sadder 408 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: I got the more I put my head in this 409 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: end because I'm also frustratingly optimistic, you know, that's just 410 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 1: I'm built for optimism, and I think a lot of 411 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 1: founders are. So I kept telling myself it'll get better, 412 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: it'll get better, but it absolutely didn't. It just continued 413 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: to get worse, and we were just financially destroyed. It 414 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 1: was just huge loss after huge loss, until by the 415 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: end of that particular financial year, we were half a 416 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 1: million dollars down. It was the worst feeling. I felt 417 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: like I failed my family. I felt like I'd set 418 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 1: them back, you know, for the remainder of their days. 419 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,239 Speaker 1: I just felt like the world's biggest failure, you know. 420 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: And so I guess making a loss like that just 421 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: had to force me into action. I couldn't just rely 422 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: on it'll work out, or the optimism or anything like 423 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: that anymore. And I just had to take action, and 424 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: I just had to put some really big girl pants 425 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: on and say things like, hey, team, the intentions aren't 426 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: bad at all. But I really disliked being called rogue 427 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: and these are my reasons why. And just having reset 428 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: conversations culturally like that commanded some respect that I was craving. 429 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: I decided I had to get really visible. You know, 430 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 1: I'm very anti hierarchy, but I had to look around 431 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: and read the room and stay I might be anti hierarchy, 432 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: but people seem to respect it for whatever bloody reason. 433 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: I've never been able to understand it, you know. And 434 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: so I just had to play that silly little hierarchy 435 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 1: game to get some freaking respect back. You know. I 436 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: had to really look at what I wanted to be 437 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: around within my workplace, and I realized, like that famous quote, 438 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: like the businesses, they don't go out of business due 439 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 1: to a loss of cash, it's when the founder runs 440 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: out of energy. It's so dangerous. If your founder runs 441 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: out of energy, you're screwed. And so I had to 442 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: really think about what drains my energy and what raises it. 443 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: And I've got some new non negotiables now as an 444 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: org leader where I can't have energy drain within my workplace, 445 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: so it has to be the stuff that's energy raised. 446 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 1: It's still honors people being people. You're allowed to be human. 447 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 1: You don't have to come in with toxic positivity. It's 448 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: nothing like that, but it would be things like, if 449 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: you're feeling frustrated within your role about X, YOZ, have 450 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: the courage to have the conversations so that we can 451 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 1: either reset that or reset your expectations, you know, or 452 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: encourage some folks to move on. They might just be 453 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: pissed because they've hit a ceiling that I can't push 454 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: them through as a smaller business owner. Great, proud of you. 455 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: Let me help you get into that next great role 456 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 1: that will be beyond this company or whatever it is, 457 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: you know. So yeah, toughest year of my life. Honestly, 458 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: I facetimed my dad every Friday. I cried into FaceTime 459 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: like you've never seen someone cry before. I just had 460 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: to seriously get through it. I described to people it 461 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: was like my Shawshank redemption era where he was kind 462 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: of like climbing his way out of that tunnel and 463 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: then over onto the islands with Morgan Freeman. So I 464 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 1: have been on the island since I had the best 465 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: year of my founder life in twenty twenty four. I 466 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: know that must be so, you know, but that was 467 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: the best year I've had as a founder. It was 468 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: the happiest year I've ever had. It was the visibility, 469 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: the profitability, the comeback, you know, the recognition that I'm 470 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: smarter than I give myself credit for. And I'm not 471 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: going to a life anyone to make me think otherwise ever. 472 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 2: Again, man, Like I can so closely relate to a 473 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 2: lot of the things that you said, and I'm like, 474 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 2: you know, I'm so sorry that you had to go 475 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 2: through that, Like I get how painful that is. And 476 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 2: you know, like I'd read about your twenty twenty four 477 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 2: and I just think, oh, this sounds amazing. And certainly 478 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 2: like when I was in the think of twenty twenty 479 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 2: four not being a good year, you were like a 480 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 2: bit of an inspiration. 481 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: I didn't know that. 482 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 2: Oh definitely, Like I wouldn't you mentioned non negotiables. I 483 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 2: would love to know what a two or three of 484 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 2: your absolute non negotiables that have really helped turn things 485 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,360 Speaker 2: around for you as a leader and a founder. 486 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 1: Well, it started with remapping the TDP vision, which was 487 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: just important. And when I was putting the words together 488 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: into the TDP vision, I realized that I need people 489 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: to want to come here to do the best work 490 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 1: of their career. I need people to take pride, you know, 491 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 1: in their goals for their own career. And so therefore 492 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 1: this industry because it's I love this industry that I'm in. 493 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:04,919 Speaker 1: I love it so much and I want to be 494 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: around people who love it too, and if they don't, 495 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:09,959 Speaker 1: I just don't want them to hit a play, you know. 496 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 1: And so when I was mapping that vision, I wanted 497 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: to focus on that so that I could focus on 498 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: both attracting folks that would suit being here as well 499 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: as repelling people who wouldn't suit being here because we 500 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: don't suit some of the you know, the TikTok trends 501 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: or the LinkedIn trends around quiet quitting, for example, if 502 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: you want to quietly quit, go somewhere else, you know 503 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: you won't like it. Yeah, And so that leads me 504 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: to my first non negotiable, which is surrounding myself with trihuds. 505 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: Because when I was mapping that vision, I remembered me 506 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: an autistic girl in year eight. I loved learning. I 507 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: was an academic kid, I guess, like, but the truth is, 508 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: I don't know about the word academic. I just loved learning. 509 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 1: I wanted to learn as much as humanly possible. However, 510 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: I was in a school that just would not have 511 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: ever wanted that. You know. I was surrounded by kids 512 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: who would just physically knock the desire to learn out 513 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: of you for just being the geek who wants to learn, 514 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: for example. So I remember the moment that I turned 515 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: my tryhard off, and I guess just tried very hard 516 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: to just not stand out and be super simple and 517 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: you know, things like that. So that was sad. It 518 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: was the giving up of the tryhard. However, I reclaimed 519 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 1: it in early adulthood, and now I've decided that that's 520 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: a non negotiable here. You come here because you're a 521 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 1: try hard and you're going to try hard. So that 522 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 1: was the first non negotiable that led me to them 523 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: describing I wanted to figure out what the TDP looks like, 524 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: and I looked at Patrick LINCIONI stuff around ideal team 525 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 1: players being humble, hungry, and smart, and I realized that 526 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: humble just equaled kind and hunger and smart equaled genius. 527 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 1: So I pared them together and that made kind genius. 528 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: And so that's the second non negotiable. We need kind 529 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: geniuses on our team, and geniuses that don't know absolutely 530 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: everything but want to learn, you know, and that they're 531 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: humble enough to say, actually, I don't know the ins 532 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: and outs of this particular Google ads a campaign, but 533 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: I'm willing to learn, you know. So they're the non 534 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 1: negotiables that set a precedence for so much more. And 535 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: now I've found that that's clocked energy rays over energy drain, 536 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: you know. And it sounds different now I'm here podcasting 537 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: with you, but I'm in my offices and I had 538 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: to walk out just before this kicked off and say, team, 539 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: you're all amazing, but I've got a podcast and this 540 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: lunch break that you're taking, can you take it outside 541 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: because you're not going to hear me. The laughter was 542 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: loud and roaring and so healing for a founder who's 543 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: been through it where culturally you could have heard a 544 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: pin drop in our workplace once upon a time, the 545 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: vibes were just so bloody depressing, you know, And now 546 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: to have to ask my team, hey, is it okay 547 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: for you just go eat in the sun, because I've 548 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: just got a little podcast got to do, you know. 549 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 2: So yeah, I want to know about your work hours 550 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 2: because you have written and spoken quite openly about during 551 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 2: really long hours, and I want to know how I 552 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 2: have you managed that being a mum, a partner, a friend, 553 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 2: a business owner. I'm wondering what does that look like? 554 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: It was healthy until it wasn't. Big, big work hours 555 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: and never healthy. I never want to push for that. 556 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: I knew my reasons why. I've come from a childhood 557 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: trauma background, and we knew early on that hard work 558 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: was going to be our way out. We didn't have 559 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: the same sort of silver spoons I would say, even 560 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: as honestly my children have, you know, for example, and 561 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: so I just knew hard work was the only way out. 562 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: But it's hard to turn that off. So that's the 563 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: unhealthy part now. For me, it was sustainable for as 564 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: long as I think it could be until I hit 565 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: perry metopause. And that was the part of my life 566 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: where it said, honey, I'm going to put you to 567 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: bed at seven four five pm. You are going to 568 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: be something so absolutely humbled and you will never be 569 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: able to work evenings again, and I've had to say 570 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: good bye. A night shift can't exist for me anymore. 571 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: I would destroy myself. So my work hours are definitely decreasing. 572 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: When I say that, it's still a forty hour week, 573 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: you know, to be honest, but I haven't got the 574 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: ability to hustle like I, you know, used to have it. 575 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: I just don't want it anyway. I'm tired, you know, 576 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: and I want to honor like the first time in 577 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: my life where I'm out able to say I'm tired, 578 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: Like I feel like that final scene and I don't 579 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: know if it's too niche for you, but Babe the 580 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: pig where there's the farmer and the pig and he 581 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: says to the pig, that'll do pig, that'll do, you know, 582 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: And I just feel like that's what Perry Metaphorse said 583 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: to me, that'll do pig. 584 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 2: So I know that you've made significant changes to how 585 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 2: you think about time and how you block out time 586 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 2: this year. Can you tell me what that looks like, 587 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 2: you know, like if I were to look at your 588 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 2: calendar now. 589 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I don't think it's still in the most 590 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: perfect spot. To be honest, I still have too many 591 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: days that feel a little bit too back to back 592 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: in terms of meetings, which just drains me so much. 593 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: I can't stand those days. But I've built in, you know, 594 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: circuit breakers as much as humanly possible, because I just 595 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: really believe that. And I wrote an article on this 596 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: recently form Umbrella where I've said our industry is addicted 597 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: to adrenaline and always on. I don't like that, and 598 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: I don't want that for my team. So we've built 599 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: in circuit breakers around. For example, in the first week 600 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: of each new month, so from the first to the 601 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: seventh we work from home entirely because why would we 602 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: come in when that week is dedicated to putting reports 603 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: together for clients. It's very data. It's deep data. You know, 604 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: it's using a different side of your brain to really 605 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: high paralyze everything. It would make no sense for us 606 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: to come into the offices, so we don't. Outside of that, 607 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: we also are in the offices just six days a month. 608 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: It's perfect for us. It's again another circuit breaker that 609 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: every neurotype benefits from, but especially our neurodivergent folk. And 610 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: then on Fridays we are entirely meeting free and almost notifications, 611 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: you know, free, So all in all, I know, no 612 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: matter how I might sometimes let the week or the 613 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: day's stack, I've got regular bursts of just me, just 614 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: doing me, you know, to look forward to. And I 615 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: will say that when I'm just before that work from 616 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: home week, I am so ready for it. I can't 617 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: even imagine coming into the offices that week. Like my body, 618 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: mind and soul is so ready for that week. And 619 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: that's how I know we're nailing it, because I'm like, 620 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: if this is me, the founder, who's probably I'm meant 621 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: to have more energy than the large majority of my team, right, 622 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: if I'm ready, they must be ready. And I love it. 623 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: I just love it, you know. We also we're essentially 624 00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: not in the offices for most of December because the 625 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: ment load, especially for our working parents, you know, is 626 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: huge at this time of the year. It's silly season 627 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: for a reason, so we just want to get rid 628 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: of all of that unnecessary demand. And I would say, 629 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: at what I love about me and my autistic brain 630 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: is that mine's an autistic brain with a PDA profile. 631 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: So for anyone who doesn't know what that means, it's 632 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: pathologically demand avoidant all it means is we just see 633 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: life in a series of unnecessary demands that humans place 634 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: on themselves, and for us, that's very it's not great 635 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: for our nervous system. So we're really good at squashing 636 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: unnecessary demands. We're just like, that feels like an unnecessary demand, 637 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: and so how that helps me as an org leaders? 638 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: I just squash unnecessary demands left right and center. I'm like, 639 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: that feels like absolute bs. 640 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 2: I am not doing that, sure, I know that, like 641 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 2: we're nearly out of time. I'm just so glad that 642 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 2: we could finally make this happen. So I just want 643 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 2: to say thank you for everything that you share, just 644 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 2: like so honestly and openly, and I just know that 645 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 2: there's going to be so many listeners just really relating 646 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 2: and resonating with what you've shared. So thank You're so 647 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 2: glad we could make this conversation finally happen. 648 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: I'm same, absolutely the same. I just yeah, it's interesting 649 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: that you refer to me as reading content from me 650 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: when you needed it. You don't even understand how many 651 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 1: emails of yours I've forwarded to my people and said 652 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: is she in my brain? 653 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 2: There were many things that really stayed with me after 654 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 2: this chat, but one of those was that businesses don't 655 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 2: fail when they run out of cash, they fail when 656 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,359 Speaker 2: the founder runs out of energy. And if there's one 657 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 2: thing to take from this episode, I think it's this. 658 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 2: The next time you feel depleted at work, don't just 659 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,399 Speaker 2: push harder, ask what's draining you and what you're tolerating 660 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:56,240 Speaker 2: that no longer fits because energy loss is such important data. 661 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 2: I also love Shari's reflections on masking and leadership and 662 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 2: rebuilding culture, and it reminded me how much damage gets 663 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 2: normalized when we ignore how people actually experience work, especially 664 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 2: the people that we really care about. Now, if this 665 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 2: chat resonated, you might like also to listen to my 666 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 2: bonus chat with Shuri, where I pick her brains on 667 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 2: her LinkedIn strategy and how a social media guru like 668 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 2: Shuri approaches her own LinkedIn posting. Thank you so much 669 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 2: for listening, and if this episode gave you language for 670 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,280 Speaker 2: something that you've been feeling, maybe share it with someone 671 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 2: who might need it to. If you like today's Joe, 672 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 2: make sure you hit follow on your podcast app to 673 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 2: be alerted when new episodes drop. How I Work was 674 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 2: recorded on the traditional land of the Warrangery people, part 675 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 2: of the Cooler Nation