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Speaker 1: Already, and this is the Daily This is the Daily

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Speaker 1: os Oh Now it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Thursday,

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Speaker 2: the second of April. I'm Emma Gillespie, I'm Billy fitz

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Speaker 2: Simon's vaping causes cancer. Three words that might sound like

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Speaker 2: something you probably already knew, but for the first time,

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Speaker 2: we actually have research to confidently back the claim. And

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Speaker 2: that is thanks to an international team of experts led

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Speaker 2: by Ossie scientists, and you're going to hear from one

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Speaker 2: of them in today's Deep dive. But first, here's the

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Speaker 2: message from the TDA team.

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Speaker 3: Hello, my name is Sky. I am a partnerships manager

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Speaker 3: we can keep delivering you the news that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: TDA Community. M.

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Speaker 1: Every time I've done reporting on vaping and wanted to

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Speaker 1: talk about the side effects, I've always struggled because there

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Speaker 1: has never been really concrete evidence about vaping causing cancer yep.

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Speaker 1: But that kind of all changed this week with this

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Speaker 1: new report. So what was this report that we're talking

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Speaker 1: about today?

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Speaker 2: So we had this report drop this week, led by

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Speaker 2: UNSW researchers, but with a whole team of experts from

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Speaker 2: Australia and around the world. And you're right, we've been

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Speaker 2: waiting for so long to learn more about vaping. This

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Speaker 2: is a relatively new practice. Vapes have only been in

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Speaker 2: Australia since about two thousand and eight, and we know

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Speaker 2: that there are other harms associated with vap use, like addiction, poisoning, burns,

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Speaker 2: both internal and external. But this is the first time

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Speaker 2: we've had what's been described as one of the most

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Speaker 2: detailed efforts yet to understand the cancer risk associated with

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Speaker 2: e cigarettes. So we have this unequivocal link that vaping

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Speaker 2: is likely to cause lung and oral cancer, and that

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Speaker 2: really changes the conversation now that we're able to have

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Speaker 2: about the harms of vaping.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like every time we talk about vaping.

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Speaker 1: We often talk about it in relation to smoking, and

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Speaker 1: it's often used as a comparison point. So we might say, well,

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Speaker 1: vaping is better than smoking, which I know from all

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Speaker 1: the reporting that The Daily Oss has done in the

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Speaker 1: past that that's not actually true. And I believe that

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Speaker 1: this report is just looking at vaping. It's not looking

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Speaker 1: at whether it's worse or better than smoking. It's identifying

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Speaker 1: that vaping in itself is an issue and we should

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Speaker 1: look at that as an isolated product and behavior.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's very little research that has done that

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Speaker 2: or stripped the two away from each other to just

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Speaker 2: focus on e cigarettes. Now, those duel studies have happened

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Speaker 2: for good reason, because vapes are known to be this

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Speaker 2: gateway to smoking. Smoking is known to cause cancer, so

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Speaker 2: there is that natural relationship and that's why a lot

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Speaker 2: of research has gone into that. We also have decades

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Speaker 2: of smoking studies. You know, smoking has been studied for

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Speaker 2: more than one hundred years. E cigarettes, like I mentioned,

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Speaker 2: are relatively new, so research has kind of neglected the

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Speaker 2: extent to which vapes cause harm or cause cancer in

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Speaker 2: their own right. And of course there's so much time, money, effort,

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Speaker 2: and coordination that goes into research. But finally we have

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Speaker 2: this really interesting report and the study that we are

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Speaker 2: talking about today was led by unsw cancer researcher Adjunct

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Speaker 2: Professor Bernard Stewart. Bernard joins me now, welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 4: I'm very pleased to be here. Thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: This study is making global headlines. First of all, congratulations,

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Speaker 2: it's really resonated with our audience these findings. But for

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Speaker 2: those who haven't quite read beyond the headlines or seen

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Speaker 2: this story yet, can you explain to us what this

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Speaker 2: study actually found.

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Speaker 5: Yes, this study involved a review of all the available

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Speaker 5: medico scientific literature without any selection process as the start,

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Speaker 5: and determined that e cigarettes in their own right are

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Speaker 5: likely to cause lun and oral cancer, even though we

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Speaker 5: can't at this stage specify what the burden of disease

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Speaker 5: is in numerical form.

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Speaker 2: A lot of our audience read this story on our

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Speaker 2: Instagram this week. They saw the headlines that you know,

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Speaker 2: an Aussie study has found vaping causes cancer, and many

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Speaker 2: responded with comments such as well, duh, yes, obviously, of course,

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Speaker 2: but can you explain the importance of what this sort

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Speaker 2: of research tells us? Why does it matter.

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Speaker 4: To have this evidence, It matters because it's another insight

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Speaker 4: into the harm that baby might do. It may well

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Speaker 4: be that in terms of a burden of cancer, the

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Speaker 4: greatest disaster is amongst those who, unfortunately both vape and

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Speaker 4: smoke over long periods of time. That's acknowledged what hasn't

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Speaker 4: been previously demonstrated, specifically that rather than acting in constant

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Speaker 4: with smoking, vaping is capable of causing cancer in its

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Speaker 4: own right. And that's the specific single matter we were addressing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I suppose we've spent many years kind of guessing

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Speaker 2: or assuming that vaping was linked to these kinds of harms.

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Speaker 2: But to have that definitive, confident finding, I think does

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Speaker 2: open up the conversation. A lot has been said about

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Speaker 2: the chemicals in vapes. I suppose this feeds into that

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Speaker 2: great unknown that we've felt for many years about you know,

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Speaker 2: what those chemicals actually do, what harm they might be causing.

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Speaker 2: What are the cancer causing chemicals actually in vape aerosols?

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Speaker 2: What in there is doing the worst damage.

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Speaker 4: This is an insightful and immediate question. The chemicals that

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Speaker 4: are in the aerosol inhaled by vapors, first of all,

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Speaker 4: involved nicotine in approximately the same amount or greater than

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Speaker 4: is inhaled by cigarette smackers. Nicotine is crucial because having

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Speaker 4: inhaled nicotine, that chemical has broken down in the body.

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Speaker 4: The technical term is metabolized, and the metabolites the breakdown

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Speaker 4: of nicotine in the body are capable of reacting with

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Speaker 4: chemicals called nitrite, and this generates what are called nitrosamines,

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Speaker 4: and the nitrosamine derivatives of nicotine and its metabolite nor

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Speaker 4: nicotine are undoubtedly carcinogenic in humans. The second aspect is

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Speaker 4: metals generated by the vaporization element in itself. The e

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Speaker 4: cigaret vaporizes are so called E liquid, and that involves

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Speaker 4: an alleged current passing through metal filaments, and that vaporizes

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Speaker 4: certain metals that are inhaled by the vapor. Finally, there

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Speaker 4: are flavoring agents in e cigarettes, and these agents and

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Speaker 4: their breakdown products involve the production of more what are

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Speaker 4: called violatile organic compounds. So this cocktail of carcinogen, all

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Speaker 4: of these are inhaled by the vapor, and in terms

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Speaker 4: of impact, it's not possible to say which one of

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Speaker 4: those is the most dangerous. It's the cocktail itself that

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Speaker 4: is cancer causing and dangerous.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back with more of today's interview with Professor

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Speaker 2: Bernard Stewart right after a quick word from today's sponsor.

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Speaker 2: So interesting to hear it described in that way, because

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Speaker 2: I guess there are people who assume that smoking nicotine

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Speaker 2: in whatever form is dangerous. But hearing you actually break

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Speaker 2: down how the technology of an e cigarette contributes to

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Speaker 2: the carcinogens that are being consumed is so fascinating. It

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Speaker 2: leads me to my next question about the marketing of vapes.

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Speaker 4: Vapes were initially marketed as a means of smoking cessation

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Speaker 4: that implicitly were better than or more effective than nicotine

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Speaker 4: replacement terribly by other means. It was only subsequent to

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Speaker 4: that that the notion that was introduced that vaping in

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Speaker 4: itself is somehow quote safer than tobacco smoking. And then

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Speaker 4: finally was the reality, due to marketing practice, that it

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Speaker 4: wasn't smokers who were taking up vapes, either to give

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Speaker 4: up smoking or to replace smoking. It was kids. And

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Speaker 4: these things have been marketed to children. The flavors in them,

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Speaker 4: hot nicotine, bubblegum and the like are clearly not designed

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Speaker 4: to appeal to fifty year olds who want to give

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Speaker 4: up smoking. They're deliberately marketed and successfully marketed to youth,

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Speaker 4: and these people are susceptible not only to the harm

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Speaker 4: from vaping, but they may transition and are more likely

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Speaker 4: to take up crth smoking.

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Speaker 2: We have a young audience, you know, most of our

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Speaker 2: listeners will fall into a demographic that is extremely familiar

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Speaker 2: with the site of vapes people around them vaping. We

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Speaker 2: have seen a ban here in Australia since twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: four July twenty twenty four, when we became the first

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Speaker 2: country in the world to ban the sale of vapes

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Speaker 2: outside pharmacies. What do these findings tell us and what

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Speaker 2: is the significance of those findings in relation to that band?

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Speaker 4: So far as I can see, the problem is not

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Speaker 4: whether the ban goes far enough, but whether the ban

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Speaker 4: is enforced, and that at the moment, in my perception,

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Speaker 4: is the problem. Clearly, vapes are available illegally, as it

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Speaker 4: happens through outlets in every suburb in Australia and in

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Speaker 4: all the regional and remote areas as well, and what's

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Speaker 4: required is not so much a further ban and an

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Speaker 4: enforcement of the regulations already in place and those regulations

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Speaker 4: are commendable. There's no question that in our free society

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Speaker 4: one would move to any situation of banning vapius altogether

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Speaker 4: in the way that we supposedly do for heroin or

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Speaker 4: other drugs. But we are interested in the medico scientific

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Speaker 4: community in seeing the evidence of the type to which

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Speaker 4: we have contributed in this paper being used by regulators

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Speaker 4: to enforce the current regulations, which include, as you've summarized

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Speaker 4: the fact that in Australia at least vapes are only

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Speaker 4: available on a prescription, you draw.

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Speaker 2: A parallel to the history of cigarettes through this research.

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Speaker 2: It took almost one hundred years before smoking was officially

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Speaker 2: linked to cancer. What can we learn from the speed

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Speaker 2: of this learning compared to how long it took for

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Speaker 2: us to have that definitive evidence. What should we take

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Speaker 2: from this and what do you want governments and policymakers

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Speaker 2: to take from this to action next steps.

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Speaker 4: Clearly, we as a society and such as regulators, we

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Speaker 4: as a society have to avoid the disastrous situation from

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Speaker 4: the late on in sixties through to the nineteen nineties

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Speaker 4: or later, when tobacco companies were saying, of course tobacco

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Speaker 4: may cause harm, What we need is clearer evidence, more evidence,

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Speaker 4: and we should do more research. And this notion quote

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Speaker 4: we should do more research unquote was a vehicle that

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Speaker 4: the lobbyists for the industry used to discourage any regulatory

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Speaker 4: intervention such as shutting down advertising or restricting sales to

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Speaker 4: kids of cigarettes. Now we have, through this publication, and

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Speaker 4: not alone through this publication, knowledge about the harm that

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Speaker 4: they've stiff and to that extent, with cancer as the

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Speaker 4: most feared disease in the population, it may discourage the

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Speaker 4: use of these products, and reduced use of these products

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Speaker 4: will lead to better health in the community.

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Speaker 2: You're speaking to a lot of young people right now.

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Speaker 2: If you could only tell them one thing about this research,

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Speaker 2: or they could only take away one piece of information

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Speaker 2: from all of this about vaping and its impact, what

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Speaker 2: would you want the message to be.

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Speaker 4: I'm hoping that the young people who happen to be

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Speaker 4: listening will know that there's a further indication that vapes

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Speaker 4: are dangerous. Whether they're more dangerous than cigarettes is beside

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Speaker 4: the point. They're dangerous in their own right, and they're

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Speaker 4: worth giving up. It's known that nicotine is addictive, and

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Speaker 4: they're hard to give up. That's acknowledged. Get help from

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Speaker 4: your GP teacher, your parents, or anyone else in whom

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Speaker 4: you have confidence, and they will support you in giving

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Speaker 4: up this habit.

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Speaker 2: Professor, thank you so much for your time. It was

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Speaker 2: great to hear you insights.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much, such an interesting conversation and an

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Speaker 1: important study that I'm sure we will be talking about

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Speaker 1: for years to come. Emma, thank you for doing that interview.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Billy, and thank you so much for listening

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Speaker 1: to this episode of The Daily Ods. Like Sky said

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Speaker 1: earlier in this episode, if you can press follow on

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Speaker 1: Spotify or Apple, it does really help new audiences find

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Speaker 1: us and get the news from The Daily Ods. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back later today with the evening headlines, but until then,

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Speaker 1: we hope you have a good day. My name is

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Speaker 1: Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Dunda Bundelung Calcuttin woman

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Speaker 1: from Gadigal Country. The Daily Os acknowledges that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on the lands of the Otegal people and

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Speaker 1: pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest Rate island and nations.

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Speaker 1: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

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Speaker 1: both past and present,