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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, this requires a systematic change as opposed to blaming

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Speaker 2: a screen.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My Mum

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Speaker 1: and Dad.

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Speaker 3: Well, lockdowns continue around about sixty percent of Australia's population,

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Speaker 3: with New South Wales the act and Victoria's still lockdown

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Speaker 3: New Zealand as well. You know this docks Justin Coulson,

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Speaker 3: the author of six books about how to make your

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Speaker 3: family happier and the Mum to Six Children. Actually, sorry,

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Speaker 3: I'm not the mum. I'm looking at you. I'm looking

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Speaker 3: at the mum to our six children. Kylie is my

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Speaker 3: wife and co host who joins me for the conversation today. Sorry,

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Speaker 3: I just sort of drifted off looking at you. I

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Speaker 3: love what you're wearing today and I was just I

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Speaker 3: was right there with you thinking about how great you looked,

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Speaker 3: and called me the mum to our six children. Hey, Kylie,

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Speaker 3: a new study has come out that I've just got

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Speaker 3: to talk about it. I know it's not the doctor's

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Speaker 3: desk today, but an Australian bad study nearly six hundred

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Speaker 3: thousand kids forty two nations published in The Lancet reveals

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Speaker 3: that boys are spending an average of more than six

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Speaker 3: hours per day of recreational screen time.

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Speaker 2: Is this in response to lockdown?

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Speaker 3: Yes? Yes, and girls are spending more than five hours

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Speaker 3: a day using screens for recreation. So we're talking about

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Speaker 3: fairly passive kind of consumption screen us. And the research

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Speaker 3: shows us that just two hours of screen time per

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Speaker 3: day is enough to cause cognitive decline, that his brain

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Speaker 3: cells start to atrophy, and ill health, physical illness, depression,

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Speaker 3: those kinds of issues. Kind of a horrible story. This

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Speaker 3: comes out of the University of Queensland. A bit of

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Speaker 3: a wake up call for everyone who says that sitting

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Speaker 3: in front of your screen is going to be okay,

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Speaker 3: it's going to be fine. The research is kind of stressful,

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Speaker 3: isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It is a little bit, but I'm probably not going

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Speaker 2: to be too popular with my response to it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I don't see how this is helpful right now. No,

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Speaker 2: there's no solutions to it because half the country is

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Speaker 2: in lockdown at the moment. They're not giving us any

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Speaker 2: options to help families right now, and so bringing out

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Speaker 2: a study like this just hurts. It doesn't actually, it

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Speaker 2: doesn't actually create change. It just leaves parents feeling completely

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Speaker 2: overwhelmed as to know how to do anything different.

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Speaker 3: Well, I want to counter that research because my position

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Speaker 3: on this has been shifting, not just because of COVID,

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Speaker 3: but because of what the research is telling us generally,

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Speaker 3: and that is that I mean, look, if you're going

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Speaker 3: to spend six hours a day on a screen, then

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Speaker 3: it's going to be unhealthy for you, right because you're

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Speaker 3: not moving your body and you're not connecting with people.

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Speaker 3: You're not having face to FaceTime, you're not practicing the

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Speaker 3: piano or painting or doing something with your brain. Like,

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Speaker 3: you're just sitting on the couch doing nothing. But the

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Speaker 3: screen has nothing to do with it. If you sat

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Speaker 3: on the couch and did nothing for six hours a day,

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Speaker 3: you'd be unhealthy. It would be associated with depression, it

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Speaker 3: would be associated with ill health, it would be associated

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Speaker 3: with cognitive decline. The screen is what draws people to

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Speaker 3: sit on the couch for six hours and do nothing,

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Speaker 3: But the screen itself isn't causing it. It's sitting on

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Speaker 3: the catch much and doing nothing for six hours. It's

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Speaker 3: a problem. Andy Shibulski, he's an Oxford researcher. I think

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Speaker 3: the guy is great, and he published a piece of

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Speaker 3: The New York Times recently. He said, the evidence linking

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Speaker 3: screens to harm is in reality, and I quote here

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Speaker 3: the two words paper thin, he said. A review published

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Speaker 3: in January by Candas Odges and Michelan Jensen concluded that

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Speaker 3: the most recent, rigorous, large scale studies report only small

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Speaker 3: associations between the amount of daily digital technology use and

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Speaker 3: adolescents well being. These associations do not offer a way

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Speaker 3: of distinguishing cause from effect, and, as estimated, are unlikely

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Speaker 3: to be of clinical or practical significance. And yet I

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Speaker 3: hear parents daily, literally emailing me every single day time

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Speaker 3: themselves in not stressing about how much screen time their

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Speaker 3: kids are getting. And it's just not it's not helpful,

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Speaker 3: Like you said, Klyde, it creates so much stress for parents. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I'm not suggesting for a second that we don't monitor

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Speaker 2: and we don't set parameters around our children's screen use.

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Speaker 2: But if our whole focus is, oh my gosh, they've

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Speaker 2: watched two hours TV today when there are so many

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Speaker 2: other bigger issues to deal with, we're not helping anyone.

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Speaker 2: We're actually just causing more conflict in our homes, which

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Speaker 2: is no one to have similar impacts.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was thinking about some of the stuff just

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Speaker 3: as you were saying that that parents stress about that

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Speaker 3: they probably don't need to now. Now, all of these

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Speaker 3: things are important and of themselves, but I don't think

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Speaker 3: that they're worth the stress that we put on them.

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Speaker 3: Like if we took the stress off, I don't think

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Speaker 3: that the world would end and the kids would actually

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Speaker 3: make safe, healthy, wise decisions. Anyway.

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Speaker 2: I remember one of our children, literally for about a year,

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Speaker 2: would only eat toast with edgibite. Yeah, that was pretty

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Speaker 2: much her diet.

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Speaker 3: And we fixed for dinner.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And the amount of emotional turmoil I put myself

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Speaker 2: through as a parent because I couldn't get her to

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Speaker 2: eat anything else.

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Speaker 3: And do you remember what I used to say to

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Speaker 3: you at dinner time when she wouldn't eat the dinner

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Speaker 3: that you'd so painstakingly and carefully and beautifully cooked. Remember,

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Speaker 3: I just say, give a week, PIX. She'll grow out

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Speaker 3: of it. She'll be fine. We don't need to worry

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 2: She has a more diverse palette than I do as

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Speaker 2: an adult anything.

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Speaker 3: Now, it's amazing, And I think like so we stress

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Speaker 3: about screens. I don't think we need to. We stress

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Speaker 3: about food. I don't think we need to. We stress

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Speaker 3: about how much our kids are exercising. I don't think

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Speaker 3: we need to. We stress about how many extracurricular activities

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Speaker 3: they're doing, or whether they're doing the right ones. And

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Speaker 3: should we put them into piano or should we put

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Speaker 3: them into violin, or should we put them into clarinet,

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Speaker 3: or should they be in band or learn guitar. I

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Speaker 3: don't think it matters, like, just let them pick. We

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Speaker 3: worry about lockdown and screens. We worry about whether they're

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Speaker 3: matching clothes, Like have you ever looked at the kids

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Speaker 3: and said, you're not wearing that? Are you?

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Speaker 2: Or I can't believe you walked out of the house

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Speaker 2: and you didn't brush your hair.

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Speaker 3: We worry about all this. We worry about whether or

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Speaker 3: not they're going to pick up their mess. Like our

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Speaker 3: most unclean child is now out of the house and married,

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Speaker 3: and her place is spotless.

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Speaker 2: She's a clean spotless when she knows mom and dad.

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Speaker 3: Maybe she just does a really great tidy. Now the

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Speaker 3: place is like, we worry about this stuff, and I

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Speaker 3: think that we're getting caught up in the thick of

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Speaker 3: thin things. And when it comes to screens, I don't

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Speaker 3: like it when I walk into the house and see

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Speaker 3: the kids on the screen, because I want them to

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Speaker 3: be doing, I want them to be living. I want

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Speaker 3: them to have a whole and balanced life. But before

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Speaker 3: we started to record, what was it that you said

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Speaker 3: about the kids and screen time?

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Speaker 2: You're going to put me on the spot.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think this just because it was set off air,

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Speaker 3: I think that you can say it on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Let's hear it. Let's hear it.

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Speaker 2: I really don't have a problem if my kids need

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Speaker 2: to zone out for an hour or two of an

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Speaker 2: afternoon because they've had a really big day. I think

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Speaker 2: about the immense stimulus and demand that has placed on

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Speaker 2: our children day in day out, and I'm talking, you know,

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Speaker 2: our little preppies, our kindergarteners all the way up to

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Speaker 2: our high school students, and I know what it's like

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Speaker 2: after I've had a full on day and I just

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Speaker 2: need time out. And while there are plenty of other

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Speaker 2: things that could possibly do, I think if we're going

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Speaker 2: to attack screens and screens being the problem, then as

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Speaker 2: a community, we have to look at why our children

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Speaker 2: are drawn to screens because once upon a time, our

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Speaker 2: kids were drawn to going down to the local park

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Speaker 2: and playing with their friends, but they're not doing that anymore.

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Speaker 2: Why this requires a systematic change as opposed to blaming

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Speaker 2: a screen, Well, I don't.

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Speaker 3: Think that it requires a huge change. But right after

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Speaker 3: the break, we're going to talk about the stuff that

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Speaker 3: does matter, because I don't think that matching clothes and

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Speaker 3: a tidy room and kids watching some screens during the

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Speaker 3: afternoon are a problem so long as they're living a full, balanced,

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Speaker 3: whole childhood. So we'll talk about what matters most right

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Speaker 3: after break. It's the Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 4: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having

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Speaker 4: to feel bad or in trouble. The Do's and don'ts

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Speaker 4: of discipline as a webinar to help parents set limits

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Speaker 4: with love, compassion and humanity. Find it now at happyfamilies

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Speaker 4: dot com, dot au slash shop.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers now, and today we're

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Speaker 2: kind of debunking a few of the the myths around

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Speaker 2: screen time.

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Speaker 3: Well, last week we talked about what goes on under

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Speaker 3: the hood in the Coulson family in terms of how

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Speaker 3: Kylie and I make our mornings work. Now we're sort

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Speaker 3: of saying we're actually pretty hands off with the way

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Speaker 3: the kids spend their time, and that includes screens. Now,

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Speaker 3: in fairness, we do actually take control of the remote

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Speaker 3: a fair bit because we've got a couple of kids

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Speaker 3: who literally would do nothing but watch The Telling if

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Speaker 3: they had full access to the remote. But we're also

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Speaker 3: pretty liberal with how much they do get to watch well.

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Speaker 2: And also over the weekend, we've had a family meeting

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Speaker 2: and we've actually discussed the fact that as a family,

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Speaker 2: we feel like we've been using screens too much lately

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Speaker 2: and so have reassessed how we will move forward with that.

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Speaker 2: But it's a collaborative effort as opposed to us as

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Speaker 2: the parents, dictating what should and shouldn't happen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm smiling as you say that, because the one

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Speaker 3: person who has the biggest screen issue wasn't in the meeting.

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Speaker 2: Oh really, yeap, who was that?

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Speaker 3: You were there either? Well, the two people who have

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Speaker 3: the biggest screen issues in the meeting. It was you

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Speaker 3: and our baby girl, our seven year old who just

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Speaker 3: loves to watch it. But here's the thing when it

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Speaker 3: comes to screens. If the kids are being physically active,

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Speaker 3: if the kids are spending time with others, and if

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Speaker 3: they're spending some focused time on those extracurricular activities that

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Speaker 3: they've chosen to do that matter to them and that

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Speaker 3: build them. I had a couple of days off last week.

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Speaker 3: I was just exhausted, and for the most part, I

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Speaker 3: didn't really do anything productive. And sometimes it's just nice.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the kids live full lives, right, We've got

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Speaker 3: children who have a lot going on. Let's chill out

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Speaker 3: about it. The other thing that I wanted to highlight

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Speaker 3: was just the importance, like when you talk about getting

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Speaker 3: caught up in the thick of thin things. It's nice

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Speaker 3: to have a tidy house, but it doesn't have to

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Speaker 3: be perfect all the time. And I don't know how

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Speaker 3: many Saturdays we've sacrificed over the last twenty something years

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Speaker 3: to the god of clean surfaces.

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Speaker 2: As a parent, my favorite memories and experiences that we've

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Speaker 2: had with our kids is when we've literally just thrown

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Speaker 2: the routine out the window and gone out for a

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Speaker 2: super Saturday, or when we live near the beach, we

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Speaker 2: literally one morning a week sometimes two or three. Yes,

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Speaker 2: we loved it so much. We just got the kids

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Speaker 2: out of bed super early and we raced down to

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Speaker 2: the beach and we had an early morning swim. The

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Speaker 2: kids would go to school with dripping, wet, sandy air

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Speaker 2: because we'd experienced joy in the water together.

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Speaker 3: Just on that. You weren't in the meeting that we

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Speaker 3: had yesterday for our family meeting, but I've filled you

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Speaker 3: in on this. This coming Friday, the kids are going

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Speaker 3: to be late to school because and for those of

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Speaker 3: you who are in lockdown, we apologize. We're not rubbing

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Speaker 3: it in, but we want to celebrate and live life

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Speaker 3: as best we can. And I just said to the kids,

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Speaker 3: we're going to be late to school on Friday because

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Speaker 3: we go to the beach. So we're going to head

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Speaker 3: down the beach and have a swim and goof off

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Speaker 3: in the water for I don't know, as long as

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Speaker 3: it takes. We'll have some cheap, horrible, nasty takeaway breakfast

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Speaker 3: somewhere terrible on the way home, and then drop the

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Speaker 3: kids at school whatever time they get there. And I

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Speaker 3: know some people are going to listen to that and

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Speaker 3: say this is just irresponsible, this is inappropriate. Some people

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Speaker 3: are going to come at us for saying this, But

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Speaker 3: can we just take the pressure off a little bit?

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Speaker 3: Can we stop getting caught up in the thickerin things

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Speaker 3: if the kids miss an hour of school on a

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Speaker 3: Friday morning because they've had high quality time at the

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Speaker 3: beach with their family, or riding a bike through the park,

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Speaker 3: if you don't live near the beach, or if you're

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Speaker 3: in a lockdown place and you're not allowed to do

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Speaker 3: certain things. I just think we need to focus on

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Speaker 3: the stuff that matters most. And how much screen time

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Speaker 3: the kids are getting it doesn't matter nearly as much

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Speaker 3: as how much time they're getting with you. It doesn't

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Speaker 3: matter nearly as much as how you're doing. And I

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Speaker 3: think there's also this other thing, Kylie. I know that

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Speaker 3: every now and again I storm into that TV room

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Speaker 3: and I say, what's going on in here? Turn that

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Speaker 3: thing off? And I get really cranky about it. But

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Speaker 3: if I would just stop for a moment and ask

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Speaker 3: myself the question, what is this response going to do

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Speaker 3: to my relationship with this child? I reckon I'd probably

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Speaker 3: respond to the screen issue differently. I reckon I'd probably

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Speaker 3: go and pluck myself on the couch next to her

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Speaker 3: and give her a hug, and after I watched for

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Speaker 3: a couple of minutes, I might say, hey, how much

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Speaker 3: long has this episode got to go? Let's turn it

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Speaker 3: off and spend some time together after, Like, how much

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Speaker 3: better is that than stressing out about screen time all

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Speaker 3: the time?

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Speaker 2: I think the reality is all of these things are

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Speaker 2: good things. They're all important things, whether that you mean

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Speaker 2: like screens or food or yeah, whether our children ex

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Speaker 2: enough food or exercising or spending time with friends or

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Speaker 2: you know, all of these things are good things. But

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Speaker 2: I think we just need to put everything into perspective

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Speaker 2: and if we can just take a step back and

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Speaker 2: acknowledge that, Okay, today's been a bad day. I'm not

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Speaker 2: in the right headspace, and my kids have been in

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Speaker 2: front of the TV and that's okay, because tomorrow it's

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Speaker 2: going to be different, or next week or whatever. I

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Speaker 2: just think, in light of what everyone is experiencing right now,

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Speaker 2: I think it's really important that we just take a

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Speaker 2: step back and be a little bit kind to ourselves.

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Speaker 3: So let's go back to this study just come out

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Speaker 3: of the University of Queensland and reflect on that for

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Speaker 3: a second. If kids are spending four or five hours

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Speaker 3: sitting on a couch every day, whether they're staring at

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Speaker 3: a screen or doing something else, it's not going to

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Speaker 3: be healthy for them. It's going to cause cognitive decline,

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Speaker 3: it's going to cause depression, or it's going to be

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Speaker 3: linked to these things at least may even lead to

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Speaker 3: physical problems. But we've got to stop blaming screens. I

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Speaker 3: think we've actually got to look at ourselves and say,

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Speaker 3: where's the stimulation for the kids? What are we doing

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Speaker 3: to support them? What systemic things, what structural things can

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Speaker 3: we do to help them to move their bodies, or

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Speaker 3: to be engaged in life, or to have purpose or meaning,

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Speaker 3: or have something to do other than sit on the

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Speaker 3: couch and do nothing except Sarah's screen.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting if I was to dissect a day of

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Speaker 2: screen usage in our house last weekend when we were

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Speaker 2: in lockdown, I spent two hours in front of a screen.

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Speaker 2: That entire time I was having zoom meetings and conversations

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Speaker 2: with people in very isolated situations. That was such an

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Speaker 2: enriching experience for me. I look at Emily, who loves

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Speaker 2: doing yoga, and she's, you know, does a thirty minute

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Speaker 2: class with yoga.

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Speaker 3: Let's a seven year old for those of you who

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Speaker 3: knew to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Calls out art Hub and she does drawing these things

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Speaker 2: can enrich our lives. So I think putting a number

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Speaker 2: on it is not valuable. What is valuable is if

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Speaker 2: our kids are staring you normally at a screen for

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Speaker 2: hours on end, that is definitely going to have an impact.

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Speaker 2: But let's just yeah, let's just take a step back.

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Speaker 2: Let's look at that a lot more objectively.

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Speaker 3: Well, we hope we haven't confused you with this. It

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Speaker 3: really is Justin and Kylie, and we really are saying

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Speaker 3: some stuff matters and some stuff doesn't. And yes, screens matter. Yes,

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Speaker 3: the food that your kids eat matters. Yes, whether they're

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Speaker 3: exercising or doing the right thing, cleaning up their rooms,

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Speaker 3: listening to parents, all that sort of stuff, Yeah, it

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Speaker 3: all matters. But it doesn't matter as much as your

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Speaker 3: response to what's going on and how that builds the relationship.

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Speaker 3: And so long as the kids are living full, balanced lives,

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Speaker 3: they're probably going to be Okay. I mean, I was

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Speaker 3: a television addict when I was a kid. If you

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Speaker 3: read my mum's journal that she kept on my behalf

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Speaker 3: for the first probably twelve years of my life. All

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Speaker 3: that she ever wrote was justin watches so much television.

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Speaker 3: And I don't know, I think I'm doing okay.

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Speaker 2: You turn out okay.

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Speaker 3: You think I'm really scared to say I did that

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Speaker 3: as a kid and I turned out all right, because

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Speaker 3: I usually argue pretty strongly against it. But let's just

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Speaker 3: worry about the big stuff. And the big stuff is

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Speaker 3: do the kids know that they're loved? Are the kids

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Speaker 3: having the opportunities to live in riching lives? If you

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Speaker 3: can say yes to that, that ongoing, nurturing relationships and

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Speaker 3: useful and healthy limits that they've worked out with you,

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Speaker 3: they're going to be just fine. The Happy Families podcast

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Speaker 3: is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media, with Craig

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Speaker 3: Bruce acting as our executive producer. If you'd like more

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Speaker 3: info about how to make your family happy and how

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Speaker 3: to not sweat the small stuff, please check out our

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Speaker 3: Happy Families memberships. You can find premium content in that

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00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,880
Speaker 3: membership that will guide your family. Because a happy family

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00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,320
Speaker 3: doesn't just happen, we would love to have you as

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Speaker 3: part of the Happy Families family. For all the details,

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Speaker 3: visit happy Families dot com, dot a