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Speaker 1: One of Australia's most accomplished children's authors, joins me on

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Speaker 1: the podcast today to talk kids reading and also what

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Speaker 1: it means to be the Australian Children's Laureate. I'm so

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Speaker 1: excited to have somebody coming back to the podcast. Return guest,

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Speaker 1: repeat offender, Stay with us. Welcome to Australia's most downloaded

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Speaker 1: parenting podcast, The Happy Family's Podcast, where we give you

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Speaker 1: real parenting solutions every day. My name's doctor Justin Coulson.

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Speaker 1: We are joined today by Sally Rippon. Sally is one

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Speaker 1: of Australia's highest selling female authors ever. Has written over

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Speaker 1: one hundred books for children and young adults, so many

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Speaker 1: of them have won awards. You may be familiar with

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Speaker 1: a couple of her series. Several series written, but a

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Speaker 1: couple of the series that pretty much everyone has at

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Speaker 1: least a couple of these books on the bookshelf. There's

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Speaker 1: the School of Monsters series, which is the most recent one.

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Speaker 1: Billy B. Brown. My kids have still got their Billy B.

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Speaker 1: Brown books on their bookshelves. Prolific author, current Australian Children's

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Speaker 1: Laureate and over the last eighteen months, Sally has been

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Speaker 1: traveling locally and internationally to talk about the way that

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Speaker 1: we can share stories and support children who might struggle

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Speaker 1: to read. Sally, thanks for coming back to the Happy

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Speaker 1: Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's such a thrill. It's really exciting to be here.

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Speaker 2: And you know, we touch base at the beginning with

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Speaker 2: the Lariate ships, so it's really great to check in

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Speaker 2: with how it's or going.

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Speaker 1: So I'd never heard I'd heard of the word when

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Speaker 1: we first spoke, but I didn't really understand what the

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Speaker 1: Australian Children's Laureate was. For people who missed our conversation

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Speaker 1: twelve eighteen months ago, can you just give us the

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Speaker 1: quick background. What is the Australian Children's Laureate, why is

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Speaker 1: it you and what do you do?

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Speaker 2: So it's a position that is run by a board,

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Speaker 2: the Australian Children's Lauriate Foundation, and what they aim to

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Speaker 2: do is to choose the Children's auce at for a

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Speaker 2: period of a couple of years to represent the interests

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Speaker 2: of obviously children, but read parents, families and really to

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Speaker 2: choose a mission statement and to spend those two years

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Speaker 2: and really using that platform for good in a way.

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Speaker 2: So my mission statement is all kids can be readers,

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Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is that we are

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Speaker 2: always going to have children who struggle to engage with reading,

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Speaker 2: So we need to look at really imaginative and really

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Speaker 2: effective ways to ensure if our children don't acquire the

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Speaker 2: reading skills they need for life, how we can ensure

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Speaker 2: they can still access stories and have all the benefits

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Speaker 2: that we know stories and books can bring them.

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Speaker 1: Sally, I'm going to link in the podcast show notes

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Speaker 1: to our previous conversation for parents who want tips and

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Speaker 1: ideas on how they can help their children to fall

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Speaker 1: in love with reading. Rather than us repeating the same

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Speaker 1: interview again, I don't think that that's beneficial. People can

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Speaker 1: go and listen to it. It was genuinely one of

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Speaker 1: the best conversations that we've had on the pod about

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Speaker 1: getting kids to read. I really really loved it. What

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Speaker 1: I'd like to know is you've been doing this now

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Speaker 1: for eighteen months. The Children's Laureate role is a twenty

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Speaker 1: four month position. In terms of your goals helping all

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Speaker 1: children to become readers and engage in stories.

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Speaker 2: Was there anything.

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Speaker 1: Specific that you said, I've got to achieve this. This

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Speaker 1: is something that is tangible, it's measurable. I can hang

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Speaker 1: my hat on saying I did X, Y or Z

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Speaker 1: or did it remain a fairly nebulous mission statement. We

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Speaker 1: need to increase the conversation.

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Speaker 2: I think a little bit of both. I think I

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Speaker 2: made a joke with the program manager of the lawriateship

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Speaker 2: that even if by the end of my tenure people

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Speaker 2: know we have a laureate and what a lauriate is okay, yes,

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Speaker 2: But I think also one of the biggest shifts we've

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Speaker 2: certainly seen, and this is something that parents behind the

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Speaker 2: scenes have been advocating for years, is the way that

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Speaker 2: we teach reading. And so this feels like a huge

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Speaker 2: shift in our understanding of the way that we acquire

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Speaker 2: reading skills. And there's been a parent support group that

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Speaker 2: I have been a part of since my younger son

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Speaker 2: was identified as being dyslexic or dyslexiccourer support group who

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Speaker 2: have been lobbying for years and years and years to

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Speaker 2: effectively change the way we teach reading. So we know

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Speaker 2: now through neuroscience, the way that our brains are actually

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Speaker 2: rewired to become proficient readers. So we're born with the

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Speaker 2: capacity to be able to speak, we hear our parents

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Speaker 2: talking through the mother's belly, and so we're born with

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Speaker 2: oral language, but we're not born with the capacity to read.

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Speaker 2: So now that this is recognized in science, we also

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Speaker 2: can use science to assess which is the best way

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Speaker 2: to teach reading. And people use the word phonics really loosely.

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Speaker 2: They kind of throw that around, and that had been

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Speaker 2: kind of a little bit of a battering ram. But

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Speaker 2: there are many things that we can do as parents

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Speaker 2: to support the way that we're going to be taught

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Speaker 2: to read.

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Speaker 1: Let'say, I've got a child who does like to read,

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Speaker 1: but they only read the one thing. They only read

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Speaker 1: the one genre. They only read graphic novels, or they

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Speaker 1: only read books about dragons, or they only read fairy books,

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Speaker 1: or I don't know, whatever the thing is. And as

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Speaker 1: a parent, I want my children to expand their world.

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Speaker 1: I want them to think differently. I want them to

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Speaker 1: recognize that there are so many other genres that could

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Speaker 1: be enlightening and delightful, and there's so much out there.

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Speaker 1: How would you encourage a parent to step into that

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Speaker 1: conversation or do you think that it's not a conversation

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Speaker 1: that needs to be had.

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Speaker 2: Look, I think every conversation is up for having and

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Speaker 2: I think I think children, like adults, don't like to

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Speaker 2: be told what to do, and so we like to

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Speaker 2: feel that we have agency, and so I think choice

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Speaker 2: can be a really important part of children still being

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Speaker 2: interested in engage with reading. And so it might be

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Speaker 2: a compromise, you know, maybe you can go to the library,

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Speaker 2: or if you can afford to go to bookstore regularly,

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Speaker 2: maybe the child chooses their own reading material and potentially

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Speaker 2: you could choose one that you could read together. I

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Speaker 2: think it's really important that kids see adults reading, because

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Speaker 2: we don't want to see reading as a punishment. Go

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Speaker 2: to your room and do your readers the best way

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Speaker 2: to turn a child off reading. So boys seeing their

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Speaker 2: dad's reading is really really important. And if their dads

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Speaker 2: are only reading, you know, the newspaper of the sports pages,

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Speaker 2: then why would a boy want to pick up you know,

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Speaker 2: pride and prejudice. So we also going to model the

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Speaker 2: kind of readers we want our children to be. And

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Speaker 2: I think also there are other ways just to be

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Speaker 2: interested in what your children are interested in, and you

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Speaker 2: might surprise yourself. You know, my youngest son, even though

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Speaker 2: he wasn't a great reader. He went through this stage

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Speaker 2: of listening to this horrendous hip hop music, and I

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Speaker 2: could have fought against that, but I chose to use

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Speaker 2: it as a conversation starter. So I'd let him choose

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Speaker 2: the music in the car and I'd say, that's really

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Speaker 2: interesting about the way they talk about women, and how

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Speaker 2: do you feel about that, and then we begin a

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Speaker 2: conversation around that. So I think books can be the

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Speaker 2: same thing. If you're looking at the books that your

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Speaker 2: children are reading, are being interested and engaged, you're likely

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Speaker 2: to find out what it is about that book that

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Speaker 2: entices them, and that could be great conversations to have

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Speaker 2: around that. Maybe they want to talk about the hero

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Speaker 2: in the story, maybe they want to talk about the sidekick.

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Speaker 2: And it's a really interesting way in to where your

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Speaker 2: child is at.

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Speaker 1: I'm listening to you say that, and there are four

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Speaker 1: things that I've noted as you're talking that I want

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Speaker 1: to pull out of it, just for emphasis or to

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Speaker 1: probe a little deeper. The first thing is together. All

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Speaker 1: the best experiences that we have with our kids when

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Speaker 1: it comes to read, tend to be together, reading with

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Speaker 1: your child on your lap when they're young, or laying

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Speaker 1: on the floor beside them while they're in bed and reading.

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Speaker 1: I remember reading The Princess Bride by I think it's

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Speaker 1: William Goldman to my kids, and I did exactly what

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Speaker 1: the grandpa does in the movies. I skipped over the

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Speaker 1: boring bits, because he actually includes some boring bits, even

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Speaker 1: though the entire things of work of fiction. I skipped

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Speaker 1: over the boring bits that he put in the book

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Speaker 1: and just read this book and I still just the

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Speaker 1: love of what a book can give you. The kids

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Speaker 1: actually said The Princess Bride that sounds like the worst

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Speaker 1: book ever, like they really didn't want to read it.

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Speaker 1: And then as we would get to this twist and

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Speaker 1: this turn and this plot challenge, and I would pause

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Speaker 1: and I'd just say, oh, I guess we have to

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Speaker 1: finish it right there, and they would scream, no more page,

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Speaker 1: one more chapter. And you know you've got them right

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Speaker 1: when you stop at the climactic moment and you refuse

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Speaker 1: to read, and because like they're dying for it. The

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Speaker 1: way that we can build suspense when I'm reading, there's

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Speaker 1: a book series that's by Obert Sky, It's called the

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Speaker 1: leven Thumps series, and putting on the voices so a

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Speaker 1: character called Geth. He's Sean Connery. Basically in my head

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Speaker 1: show Geth sweeks like this. And there's Clover, who's this

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Speaker 1: little sicker fant who is like a catlike creature from

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Speaker 1: another world. And Clover speaks in this really high kind

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Speaker 1: of I don't know, And the kids they fall in

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Speaker 1: love with the characters, they fall in love with the voices,

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Speaker 1: and it becomes this delightful bonding time. You've highlighted the

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Speaker 1: importance of together and I don't know that there's a

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Speaker 1: more powerful and profound way to help kids to fall

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Speaker 1: in love with reading. Why because they fall in love

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Speaker 1: with you. I wonder if you have any reactions to that.

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Speaker 2: Oh my heart just sings when you say all of that,

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Speaker 2: because I think we were chatting before about how addicta's

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Speaker 2: screens are, and they are they're created to make all

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Speaker 2: of us addicted. I had to consciously put my phone

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Speaker 2: to one side if I want to be able to read.

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Speaker 2: But phone is never going to give you the connection

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Speaker 2: like that. I mean, all people crave to be seen,

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Speaker 2: to have someone fully present with them, it doesn't matter

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Speaker 2: how old we are, and to be able to do

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Speaker 2: that with a child, there's nothing more magical, and so

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Speaker 2: there's actually no competition when if you're really serious about it,

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Speaker 2: if you can put down all your distractions and be

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Speaker 2: so present with a child, even just for a short

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Speaker 2: moment each day, what a beautiful thing that a book offers.

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Speaker 2: And of course there are many people who may find

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Speaker 2: that challenging. They may not be proficient readers themselves, they

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Speaker 2: may be just exhausted at the end of the day.

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Speaker 2: So listen to an audiobook together and talk about it.

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Speaker 2: You know, there are so many sophisticated stories that you

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Speaker 2: can share with your children that a child appropriate. You know,

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Speaker 2: they don't have to be some of the stuff that

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Speaker 2: you watch together on television. You might kind of hesitate

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Speaker 2: about bringing a small child into that space, but you

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Speaker 2: can have complex ideas you can talk about really branch

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Speaker 2: into emotional awareness by reading books together or listening to audiobooks.

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Speaker 2: And like you say, it's the greatest connection you can

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Speaker 2: have with the chart and it can take practice. It

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Speaker 2: doesn't come easily for everybody, but it's so well.

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Speaker 1: So we are joined today by Sally Rippon, prolific author,

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Speaker 1: current Australian Children's Laureate, and over the last eighteen months

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Speaker 1: Sally has been traveling locally and internationally to talk about

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Speaker 1: the way that we can share stories and support children

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Speaker 1: who might struggle to read. Sally, you do these interviews

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Speaker 1: all the time, day in, day out. You're talking to

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Speaker 1: people about the same stuff all the time, getting kids

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Speaker 1: to love reading, and trying to achieve your overarching mission

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Speaker 1: of helping books to be part of children's lives. Because

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Speaker 1: you do so many of these interviews, I have a

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Speaker 1: question that's going to be quite different, and it's putting

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Speaker 1: a lot of pressure on you as I asked this question,

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Speaker 1: So I apologize for this, But because you get so

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Speaker 1: many of the same questions, I'd love to know what's

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Speaker 1: the best question that you've been asked recently. What's a

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Speaker 1: question that you've pulled and gone wow. I wish more

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Speaker 1: people ask questions like that.

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Speaker 2: Oh, you have put me on the spot, even though

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Speaker 2: you warned me you would ask this one. I think

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Speaker 2: questions can be really confronting, and this is something I

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Speaker 2: really learned raising teenagers as well. Is that just to

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Speaker 2: put someone on the spot and ask a teenager a

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Speaker 2: question I always find really challenging. Your mind goes blank

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Speaker 2: and you can't come up with anything funny or or smart.

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Speaker 2: So I think for me, I have found the most

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Speaker 2: interesting conversations have come from what we're doing right now.

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Speaker 2: I'm really interested in who you are and how you

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Speaker 2: think and what your experiences are, and in turn, then

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Speaker 2: it prompts me to exchange some of my experiences. And

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Speaker 2: I found that really with my three boys as they

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Speaker 2: were growing up, particularly as teenagers, that I think people

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Speaker 2: forget to listen to teenagers, and I certainly would often

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Speaker 2: make those mistakes, and teenage boys can be really hard

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Speaker 2: to get out of their shelves, and so I would

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Speaker 2: find ways to incidentally have conversations and connections with them.

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Speaker 2: So you know, the parallel sitting in a car having conversation,

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Speaker 2: listening to music, going on walks together is so much

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Speaker 2: less confronting than just sitting across the table from them

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Speaker 2: and saying, how is your day? Then they don't know

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Speaker 2: what to so probably maybe what I'll do by answering

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Speaker 2: that question is give an example of a teenager who

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Speaker 2: I felt answered the question of all the adults in

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Speaker 2: the room. And so I was lucky enough to be

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Speaker 2: asked to attend a PD for teachers out at a

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Speaker 2: massive school and vulnerable talking to them about how we

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Speaker 2: can best support neurodivision kids in the classroom. And before me,

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Speaker 2: who was supposedly the expert because I've written a book

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Speaker 2: for parents and supporting eurodivision kids, they asked a year

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Speaker 2: eight girl to get up and do a PowerPoint and

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Speaker 2: talk about what it was like to have ADHD and

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Speaker 2: go through school. And she prepared this beautiful PowerPoint and

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Speaker 2: she talked about the challenges but some of the cool

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Speaker 2: things about having ADHD too, And when it was time

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Speaker 2: for me to stand up, I was like, my job

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Speaker 2: here is done. Pretty much. She is telling you everything

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Speaker 2: you need. You don't need to hear it from me.

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Speaker 2: You actually just needed to hear it from your young people.

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Speaker 2: Ask them what is it like in the classroom for you?

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Speaker 2: Is I to challenge what are the challenges? And kids

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Speaker 2: can have the most amazing responses. And that's how I

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Speaker 2: try to stay open and keep learning. Is actually turning

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Speaker 2: around on other people and asking them, you know, what

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Speaker 2: are you thinking? Especially young people. Young people are so

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Speaker 2: happy if you asked them that question.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Sally, another one. I love the experience, but number two,

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Speaker 1: my summary of what you've said when I'm asking you

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Speaker 1: one of the best questions you've been asked recently is

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Speaker 1: is that it's not really about the questions. It's about

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Speaker 1: the dialogue. It's about the insight that comes as we

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Speaker 1: bounce ideas off each other, which means that if we

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Speaker 1: want our kids to engage with us and converse with

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Speaker 1: us and open up books and read them, it really

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Speaker 1: is about somehow, as you said, bringing them out of

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Speaker 1: their shells and helping them to be open and curious

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Speaker 1: and consider that there might be a worldview or an

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Speaker 1: opportunity to step into empathy that they hadn't considered before.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and for us to model that we need to

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Speaker 2: be open and curious as to how they see the

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Speaker 2: world and how they're going.

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Speaker 1: With Yeah, Yeah, beautiful. Modeling seems to be coming up

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Speaker 1: over and over and again in this conversation. In your

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Speaker 1: last answer, you referred to curiosity and your love of

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Speaker 1: asking questions. This is an unusual thing for the guy

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Speaker 1: who's doing the interview to do, but you're obviously a

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Speaker 1: prolific author, You're right for children all the time, and

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Speaker 1: you think deeply about a lot of things. I've got

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Speaker 1: a PhD in psychology and we share a lot of

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Speaker 1: mixed interests. I'm wondering if you have anything that you're

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Speaker 1: curious about that you like, let's turn the tables. Is

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Speaker 1: there something that you would ask me.

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Speaker 2: I love that. I think that's such fun.

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Speaker 1: I've always a bit nervous about it. It's like, am I

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Speaker 1: putting this person on the spot. It's am I making

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Speaker 1: this conversation about me? Is this too narcissistic? An ego oriented?

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Speaker 1: It is not meant to be. It's just I think

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Speaker 1: it's about the dialogue.

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Speaker 2: Right that. I'm really curious in how you find boys

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Speaker 2: are managing in the world. I know you're writing and

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Speaker 2: researching a book about boys, but you also were a boy,

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Speaker 2: and so I know there was some really interesting conversations

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Speaker 2: that you started around adolescents the series that I think

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Speaker 2: a lot of people have seen, And I wonder how

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Speaker 2: you feel like boys are fairing and doing the research

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Speaker 2: and studying this book. I brought up three boys, but

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Speaker 2: my youngest is now twenty two. I think it's hard

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Speaker 2: for them. And even my kids were adolescents.

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Speaker 1: So first of all, adolescents that the Netflix series turned

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Speaker 1: the world upside down, and I did write a lot

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Speaker 1: about it. One thing that I didn't do and the

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Speaker 1: series have been criticized quite a lot. Is statistically it's

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Speaker 1: quite unrealistic that the events portrayed in the series would

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Speaker 1: actually occur, and I think that that's definitely worth noting.

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Speaker 1: But those people who are getting caught up on that

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Speaker 1: are missing the broader point, and that is that there

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Speaker 1: is a really big challenge for our boys today in

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Speaker 1: terms of how they are relating to one another, how

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Speaker 1: they're relating to girls, and how they're relating to themselves,

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Speaker 1: their quest for identity. It's really a really tough time.

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Speaker 1: The short version is, I don't think that boys on

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Speaker 1: the whole are doing nearly as well. I've got a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of stats in my new book about how

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Speaker 1: for every ten girls who finish high school, only eight

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Speaker 1: boys do. For every ten girls that go to university,

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Speaker 1: only seven boys do. For every girl who graduate university,

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Speaker 1: the only six point seven boys do, and so on.

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Speaker 1: And then when we look at the negative behaviors being

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Speaker 1: involved in fights or taking drugs or blah blah blah,

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Speaker 1: as boys get older, for every ten girls who are

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Speaker 1: doing it, there are multiples of that in the boy

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Speaker 1: side of things that are doing it. The boy side

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Speaker 1: of the equation. So to me, that's a really big

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Speaker 1: challenge that we're facing. In Harry Potter and the Curse Child,

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Speaker 1: the Harry Potter book that was not written by JK.

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Speaker 1: Rowling and the one that went on to become the

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Speaker 1: stage play, the authors have Draco Malfoy and Harry as

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Speaker 1: adults having a conversation about their teenage children. Draco has

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Speaker 1: this beautiful, beautiful line that he delivers to Harry as

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Speaker 1: they're having this really challenged discussion. Raco says, people say

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Speaker 1: that parenting is the toughest job there is. It's not

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Speaker 1: growing up is, And I just there's so much empathy

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Speaker 1: in that. There's so much beauty in that really simple observation.

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Speaker 1: And I think about your question, and I asked myself,

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Speaker 1: born in nineteen seventy five, I'm fifty this year. Would

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Speaker 1: I rather be a child of the seventies and eighties

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Speaker 1: or would I rather be a child today? And I

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Speaker 1: don't have to think about it for a millisecond. I

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Speaker 1: know the answer. And writing this book about boys has

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Speaker 1: been a really profound experience for me, especially as a

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Speaker 1: father of girls, to step into the world of boys,

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Speaker 1: to look at the things that they're doing to demonstrate

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Speaker 1: that their masculinity isn't precarious, The way they're trying to

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Speaker 1: either embrace or fight against manbox beliefs, the way that

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Speaker 1: they police one another with this boy code, the impact,

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Speaker 1: the overarch devastating impact of pornography in their lives, and

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Speaker 1: so much more. It's really tough. I mean, you've raised

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Speaker 1: three boys. When you look at what they've been through,

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Speaker 1: would you rather be a girl or a boy being

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Speaker 1: raised today?

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Speaker 2: I one hundred percent agree with you. I think it's

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Speaker 2: I think what women have had as an umbrella and

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Speaker 2: as a model is feminism, so we have something to

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Speaker 2: work towards. Yes, what men have been living under, young

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Speaker 2: men is this umbrella of toxic masculinity. So they're saying, well,

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Speaker 2: what who do I model myself on? You know, what

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Speaker 2: do I aspire to? Just identifying as a straight white

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Speaker 2: man can actually make them feel bad about themselves because

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Speaker 2: of how that term is used today. And I think

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Speaker 2: it's really sad that boys are finding it so hard

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Speaker 2: to get the support they need because we have got

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Speaker 2: so good at knowing how to support girls, at giving

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Speaker 2: them go to work towards. And I think there is

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Speaker 2: an empty space now that boys don't know how to

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Speaker 2: step into. But I also just want to jump in

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Speaker 2: and say how much I love it that the answer

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Speaker 2: to your questions came from what is essentially a children's book,

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Speaker 2: and I just think, here, I guess here's the problem solving.

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Speaker 2: Is that if we do engage with the child's world,

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Speaker 2: if we do access what children are going through, and

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Speaker 2: we can do this through watching things with them, talking

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Speaker 2: about the books they're reading or the music they're listening to,

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Speaker 2: whether you like it or not, there is a portal

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Speaker 2: there that we can not only access our own childhoods

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Speaker 2: and remember how we felt growing up, but hopefully from

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Speaker 2: that space connect with our own children, because yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: really hard and it's very different when we're growing up.

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Speaker 2: So if we're not tuning into that, we're going to

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Speaker 2: miss opportunities to connect with them. And that was my

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Speaker 2: takeaway from adolescents that they lost connection with their son.

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Speaker 2: You know, whether or not those things he did could

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Speaker 2: have really happened. For me, The key was as soon

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Speaker 2: as you lose connection with your child, someone else would

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Speaker 2: jump in and make that connection with them, and that's

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Speaker 2: where the danger starts. Believe.

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Speaker 1: So my definition of connection is when you feel seen,

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Speaker 1: heard and valued.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that your parent is really present there for you

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Speaker 2: and curious to how you feel.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not sure that there are too many better

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Speaker 1: ways to create connection, to create a feeling of being seen,

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Speaker 1: heard and valued than to sit down and read a

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Speaker 1: book together.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, that's the takeaway for today.

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Speaker 1: I reckon it's a pretty tidy way to finish this conversation, unplanned, unscripted.

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Speaker 2: But I like it so good.

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Speaker 1: Sally Rippin The Australian Children's Laureate eighteen months into a

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Speaker 1: twenty four month stint, and again, such a delight to

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Speaker 1: talk with you. I love our conversations every time. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with me on The Happy Family's podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's always much pleasure. And I'm so glad that it

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Speaker 2: remained open and curious, because I think that's how the

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Speaker 2: best conversations are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much. We will link to some

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Speaker 1: notes about the Australian Children's Laureate in the show notes,

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Speaker 1: as well as a couple of more popular series of

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Speaker 1: Sally's In case you have young kids who would love

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Speaker 1: to or who you would love to have those mind

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Speaker 1: expanding experiences, check the show notes for that. The Happy

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Speaker 1: Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland for Bridge Media.

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Speaker 1: Mim Hammonds looks after research, admin and resources. If you

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Speaker 1: would like more information about making your family happier, visit

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Speaker 1: us at happy families dot com, dot a