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Speaker 1: One of those perennial parenting problems is what do you

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Speaker 1: do when the kids won't go to sleep in their bed?

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Speaker 1: Or what do you do when the kids won't go

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Speaker 1: to sleep and you are exhausted. The number one parenting

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Speaker 1: hack that I have if you want to be a

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Speaker 1: better parent is to get enough sleep, but sometimes the

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Speaker 1: kids won't let you. Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Happy Families podcast Real parenting Solutions every

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Speaker 1: day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. I'm just on

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Speaker 1: here with Kylie, my wife and mum to our six

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Speaker 1: kids and Kylie. Every single Tuesday, we answer questions tricky

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Speaker 1: questions on the pod. You can submit your questions via

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Speaker 1: our super simple system at happy families dot com dot you.

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Speaker 1: You just go to the website, scroll out of where

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Speaker 1: it says podcasts and click the record button then start talking.

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Speaker 1: It's really that easy. Or you can send us a

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Speaker 1: voice memo to podcasts podcasts with an s at happy

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Speaker 1: families dot com dot you. All Right, here we go.

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Speaker 1: This is today's question comes through from an anonymous lista.

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Speaker 2: Hi Justin, thank you for all that you do for

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Speaker 2: all the mamas and the papas out there. I was

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Speaker 2: wondering if you could help me. I'm wondering at what

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Speaker 2: age should I give up the bedtime fights. It has

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Speaker 2: mostly felt like a power struggle every year, every night

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Speaker 2: for years, and I feel like we're chasing them through

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Speaker 2: all the steps, teeth get ready and into bed, lights out,

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Speaker 2: and I feel more like we are micromanaging them, and

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Speaker 2: it's not helping them gain independence and personal responsibility for

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Speaker 2: their life and how their choices affect them, and so

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Speaker 2: we are the bad guy when it's time to wake

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Speaker 2: up or school is the problem, etc. But I don't

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Speaker 2: want to swing in an extreme direction and give them

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Speaker 2: full rain because I still strongly believe that dental health

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Speaker 2: is important and getting enough sleep. But I do feel

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Speaker 2: none of us are having evening routines we feel good about.

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Speaker 2: And one challenge that we share is that they all

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Speaker 2: have to stay in the same room. Sometimes we put

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Speaker 2: one kid to bed in our bed and then move

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Speaker 2: them later on, but it's not really ideal. My ideal

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Speaker 2: goal would be they would be all going to bed

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Speaker 2: in their own room. So thank you so much and

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Speaker 2: take care, Kylie.

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Speaker 1: I love those two words. Not ideal. Doesn't that just

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Speaker 1: describe everything when it comes to kids in sleep not ideal.

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Speaker 3: So she hasn't given us all the information. We don't

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Speaker 3: know how many children are involved, we don't know how

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Speaker 3: old they are, but the fact that she said they

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Speaker 3: all share the same room would suggest that there's more

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Speaker 3: than two. I could think, but one of them may

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Speaker 3: go to sleep in her room. This is really tricky,

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Speaker 3: and this is a challenge that we with six children

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Speaker 3: and sometimes houses that are too small, we have had

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Speaker 3: to deal with multiple times over.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I always want to say

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Speaker 1: when questions come up about sleep and getting kids to

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Speaker 1: go to sleep and on their own room, and that

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Speaker 1: ideal that we have right, we want the kids to

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Speaker 1: go into bed. We give them the kiss and the cuddle,

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Speaker 1: sing the song, read them a story, say a prayer

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Speaker 1: if you've got a religious background, and then you want

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Speaker 1: to walk out of the room, close the door and breathe.

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Speaker 1: You just want to get your life back and have

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Speaker 1: an hour or two before you've got to hit the hay. Historically,

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Speaker 1: when we look at things anthropologically, across cultures and across

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Speaker 1: time I'm talking millennia, Humans until the last couple of

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Speaker 1: hundred years have generally slept in groups. That's what mammals do.

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Speaker 1: Look at puppy dogs, look at pretty much all mammals.

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Speaker 1: They sleep in groups. And once we started to have

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Speaker 1: ostentatious displays of wealth and build bigger houses, the children

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Speaker 1: started to have their own room, and the more rooms

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Speaker 1: you had, the more wealthier looked. And that's just become

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Speaker 1: part of the culture now. Not necessarily about the wealth,

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Speaker 1: but the kids sleeping in separate rooms, their own rooms,

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Speaker 1: not with their siblings, or definitely not with parents. Now

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Speaker 1: obviously in your case, the kids are supposed to be

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Speaker 1: sleeping together, but they get r right up and they

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Speaker 1: miss their parents and they want to be with you.

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Speaker 1: So historically we're up against it. Biologically, DNA, we're up

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Speaker 1: against it. Nevertheless, I think three principles can get us

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Speaker 1: out of our fix. The first one, in a word,

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Speaker 1: force creates resistance. Okay, that was three words, but you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean. While we're trying to control the situation,

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Speaker 1: we get a whole lot of resistance. And we've done that,

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Speaker 1: we've been there. It doesn't work particularly well. We need

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Speaker 1: to work with our kids.

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Speaker 3: You can really hear it in this mom's voice. There's

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Speaker 3: just an acknowledgement that they really have kind of got

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Speaker 3: themselves into a bit of a rut. There's a bit

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Speaker 3: of a vicious circle going on here. She feels like

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Speaker 3: she's nagging, the kids don't respond, so that whole idea

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Speaker 3: of her efforts to make them go to bed on

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Speaker 3: time is falling on deaf ears and actually pushing and

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Speaker 3: making it worse. And the biggest challenge we have is

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Speaker 3: how do we break that cycle.

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Speaker 1: Your favorite answer whenever we talk about this is that

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Speaker 1: we should all sit down and have a family meeting.

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Speaker 1: Is is that where you're going?

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Speaker 3: Yes? Maybe, if it's not a family meeting, it's a

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Speaker 3: one on one with each child and sitting them down

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Speaker 3: and asking them how they actually feel about night times,

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Speaker 3: What do they love about nighttimes? What do they not

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Speaker 3: love about nighttimes? How would they change it? Understanding what

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Speaker 3: they want out of their experience will help you to

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Speaker 3: navigate this challenge so much better.

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Speaker 1: It'll do something else as well. Whether you have a

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Speaker 1: family meeting you talk about what's working, what's not, and

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Speaker 1: what we're going to work on this week, or whether

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Speaker 1: you do one on ones, which I actually prefer in

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Speaker 1: this situation. So I didn't quite get it right. What

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Speaker 1: I like about either of those two options, though, is

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Speaker 1: that your child now feels like, Oh, your children now

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Speaker 1: feel like they have a voice. They feel like they're

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Speaker 1: in the driver's see a little bit of their own lives,

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Speaker 1: which means that as they say, well, we could do

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Speaker 1: this or I'd like that, and as you start to

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Speaker 1: work to warkards those as goals so long as their

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Speaker 1: reasonable requests and expectations, what this means is the kids

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Speaker 1: are going to buy into the direction that you're heading,

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Speaker 1: You're much more likely to get a result. Giving them

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Speaker 1: a voice is so powerful, so helpful.

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Speaker 3: So the reality is if you've got a child in

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Speaker 3: there who wants a ten thirty bedtime and they're five

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Speaker 3: years old or even seven or eight years old, and

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Speaker 3: it's completely not only inappropriate, but just not possible.

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Speaker 1: Yea're not going to happen.

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Speaker 3: You can acknowledge that that would be awesome, wouldn't it

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Speaker 3: if you could stay up every night?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, give them in fantasy what they can't have in

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Speaker 1: reality till ten thirty.

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Speaker 3: And you know, when you're a big boy, you can

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Speaker 3: have that. But right now your body needs lots more

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Speaker 3: sleep than that would give you. So what do you

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Speaker 3: think would be a good bedtime.

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Speaker 1: From time to time, I've had conversations with parents where

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Speaker 1: I've said, just give them full freedom here and just say,

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Speaker 1: so long as you get up on time, you can choose.

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Speaker 1: And what most of those parents have told me dealing

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Speaker 1: with kids from about five or six through to about

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Speaker 1: fifteen or sixteen, is that the kids think it's wild

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Speaker 1: and crazy for the first night or two, and by

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Speaker 1: about day three or four they're pretty grumpy. In the

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Speaker 1: house is not very nice. But by about day five

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Speaker 1: or day six, the kids are like, I'm tired and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to bed. Like they learned to regulate themselves.

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Speaker 1: They just want to have a level of control after

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Speaker 1: the break. Two more principles to help navigate the bedtime

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Speaker 1: routine where everyone's going to sleep and the toothbrushing stuff. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so force create's resistance. We want to give kids a voice. Kylie,

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Speaker 1: my second principle, you put much better words around this

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Speaker 1: than the words that I had for it. I just said,

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Speaker 1: you got to do what it takes. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if that's exactly what I meant. You said.

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Speaker 3: It's about a change in perspective.

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Speaker 1: That's so much better than what I said.

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Speaker 3: You know, I love those snuggles that you have with

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Speaker 3: young children. And our grand baby she's eighteen months old,

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Speaker 3: and every now and again I need to babysit her,

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Speaker 3: and I have the pleasure of having to put her

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Speaker 3: to sleep.

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Speaker 1: Not need to get to.

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Speaker 3: I get to, Yeah, I get to. And there is

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Speaker 3: something just magical about having her fall asleep in my

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Speaker 3: arms and not wanting to give that moment up for anything,

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Speaker 3: to the point where you literally you're there like a

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Speaker 3: still soldier, like a statue. Yeah, like a statue. You

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Speaker 3: don't want anything to change in that moment, and you're like,

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Speaker 3: I can't even breathe because if I breathe, maybe I'll

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Speaker 3: wake her. I love that feeling. And the reality is

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Speaker 3: that time goes so fast.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got those adults forever.

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Speaker 3: But before you know it, they're no longer small enough

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Speaker 3: to be snuggled in your arms. And the reality is

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Speaker 3: this time frame when they're young and they're just full

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Speaker 3: of energy feels like you are running a marathon, and

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Speaker 3: in lots of ways you are. Ye, but it's not

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Speaker 3: going to last. And this is just such a small moment.

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Speaker 1: Don't you miss it?

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Speaker 3: Though? I too, God, I do.

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Speaker 1: But when you're not going through it anymore and you're

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Speaker 1: saying I miss it, and you say that to somebody

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Speaker 1: who is going through it, they look at you and

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Speaker 1: they're like, are you on drugs?

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Speaker 3: So let's paint a really clear picture. What we're saying

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Speaker 3: we miss is the nights where I had to sleep

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Speaker 3: on the floor with my hand squeezed through the cot

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Speaker 3: railings so that I could pat my baby off to

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Speaker 3: sleep because she just didn't want me to leave.

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Speaker 1: We both did that so many times, and I.

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Speaker 3: Would be there till midnight and then wake up and go, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I sick. Why am I still here?

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Speaker 1: Or the nights where the baby goes to sleep or

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Speaker 1: the child the six or seven year old goes to sleep,

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Speaker 1: but then they come into our bedroom at two in

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Speaker 1: the morning, and so I get out of the bed

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Speaker 1: and I go sleep in their bed so they can

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Speaker 1: sleep in bed with you, because I don't really care

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Speaker 1: what bed I'm sleeping in so long as I'm sleeping,

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Speaker 1: and I know if I take them back to bed,

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Speaker 1: this might happen two or three more times, whereas I

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Speaker 1: just go to their bed. Problem solved for everybody, right,

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Speaker 1: It just it just works out.

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Speaker 3: Better, and so the reality is twenty six years later,

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Speaker 3: we're not doing that anymore. Yeah, but at the time

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Speaker 3: it felt like a really really heavy load.

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Speaker 1: Is this ever going to end?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So that idea of changing perspective is just a

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Speaker 3: recognition that this is just a season.

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Speaker 1: You say, change perspective, I say, do what it takes.

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Speaker 3: And one day you'll look back and realize just how

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Speaker 3: small a moment in time it really was.

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Speaker 1: I want to summarize with some practical stuff here, Okay,

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Speaker 1: because a lot of that's theoretical. As a parent, maybe

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Speaker 1: you take one child and the other parent takes the

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Speaker 1: other child. If you're doing it on your own, you

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Speaker 1: get a big sibling to help. If one child wants

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Speaker 1: to sleep in one bed, you let them and you

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Speaker 1: sleep in the other bed, or you let them sleep

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Speaker 1: in your bed and then you sneak out and sleep

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Speaker 1: into their bed when the three of them are all

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Speaker 1: sleeping in your bed, like you just do what it takes.

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Speaker 1: That's really what I'm getting at. You're highlighting when you

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Speaker 1: change your mindset and see it as something that you're

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Speaker 1: going to miss one day and you just work on it,

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Speaker 1: know that this too will pass. That's kind of the conglomeration,

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Speaker 1: the practical conglomeration of the prince boy trying to share here,

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Speaker 1: and that's kind of all we've got for the bedtime

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Speaker 1: routine sort of thing. There was only one other thing

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Speaker 1: that came up in this question, and that revolved around toothbrushing.

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Speaker 3: Dental hygienes. Important.

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Speaker 1: It is, It matters, and you're right to say that

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Speaker 1: the kids need to brush their teeth otherwise they get

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Speaker 1: gum disease their teeth. Just the whole lot is gross.

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Speaker 1: It's gross, furry teeth. It wants it. I only have

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Speaker 1: one thing to say on this, and that is that

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Speaker 1: if your children are under about the age of eight,

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Speaker 1: you really need to be involved in doing the toothbrushing

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Speaker 1: full stop and a story. Dentists recommend that parents help

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Speaker 1: their children brush their teeth until the age of eight.

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Speaker 1: If they won't do it, you could say, brush your

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Speaker 1: teeth and I'll give you a LOLLI. That was a joke.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad, so glad you love because that's the

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Speaker 1: funny bit, right, because you've just brush your teeth and

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Speaker 1: then you put some sugar in you. No, don't bribe them,

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Speaker 1: you just you just say, hey, guys, this is what

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Speaker 1: we do. Okay, maybe maybe.

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Speaker 3: Those electrical toothbrushes work to treat without kids love those, yeah,

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Speaker 3: or you've just got a two minute timeerer on them.

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Speaker 3: They know what they've got to do and they can't

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Speaker 3: stop brushing until their toothbrush turns off.

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Speaker 1: You just take them to the dentist and get the

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Speaker 1: dentist to explain the importance of it as well, so

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Speaker 1: that you're not the authority figure here and you're just

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Speaker 1: doing what the dentist said. That can be helpful as well.

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Speaker 2: Ge.

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Speaker 1: We really hope that was helpful, and that's it. That's

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Speaker 1: our very best answer to help in these tricky situations.

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Speaker 1: If you've got a tricky question, we love answering them

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Speaker 1: every Tuesday on the podcast. Send us a voice note

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Speaker 1: to podcasts at Happy Families dot com dot you or

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Speaker 1: visit the website scroll down to where it says podcasts,

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Speaker 1: click the record button and leave us a message. We'd

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Speaker 1: love to know what your name is, and we're sending

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Speaker 1: the message from as well. That always feels next. We

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Speaker 1: just we like you. We want to know more about you.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from

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Speaker 1: Bridge Media for more information and more resources about making

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Speaker 1: your family happier, visit us at happy families dot com,

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Speaker 1: dot you