WEBVTT - Dr Amanda Porter Part One 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:06.880 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty 0:00:07.000 --> 0:00:09.280 verdicts against all three defendants. 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:11.960 It was absolute shambles, to tell you the truth, just 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:12.880 absolutely really. 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:15.800 Pallous blood on his clothing the day after the alleged. 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:17.760 A top shallow mud bank and it fits Roy River. 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:18.320 Basically. 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:20.040 I think most of the people are used to me 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:21.400 are good people. 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:24.080 I think a really important question we need to ask 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:27.160 is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent. 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:30.720 This is Curtain, a podcast where we call back the 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:33.239 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:36.199 our justice system and ask who are the victims. 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:41.879 I'm Amy Maguire and I'm Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:45.760 for the Foreign Prisoner Support Service. And a warning this 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.720 series contains the names of deceased peoples and has distressing 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:52.520 content that might upset some listeners. 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:56.560 Welcome to Kada in the podcast, and today we've got 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.520 a very special guest in it, someone who I look 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.720 up to particularly in a lot of my research, particularly 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:07.160 recently in this current time where we're looking around black 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:10.760 lives matter, I think it's really important that we learn 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:13.640 from this place first and foremost and I think that's 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:16.959 where our current guest today, her work is so important 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:21.400 around the history of policing, particularly how blackfellows, but also 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:24.720 in ways that we talk about issues of violence and 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:30.120 state institutions. So our guest today is Amanda Porter. I 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:32.479 don't know, Amanda, did you want to describe your first 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.040 your mob in your country first and maybe a bit 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:37.480 about what you or how you came to be in 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:37.960 this area. 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:39.080 Thanks, Amie. 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:42.959 And that's a really a very generous introduction and one 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:43.880 that I'm not worthy of. 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:46.400 So for those who don't know me, my name is Amanda. 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:50.720 I'm of bringy Euan descent and also of settler descent 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:55.520 Greek and Scottish descent, and I grew up on Yapel Country, 0:01:56.240 --> 0:02:00.680 far North Coast in South Wales. And yeah, my family 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:05.640 is connected to you and country through Archie Ferguson and 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:07.720 people on Cabestry Island. 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:12.040 So hello to everyone who's tuning in from there. How 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:12.560 I came. 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:16.080 Into to be interested in this work has been, I 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:18.840 guess my whole life. I've been interested in the ways 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:24.400 in which different populations and different people or police differently 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:30.840 and why so, yes, someone who's white passing, but you 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:33.680 know has grown up seeing all of this. You know, 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:38.720 it was always you know, I was always intrigued by 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:42.880 how you know, the side of the town where my 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:46.200 family lived, you'd see the police, you know, up to 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:49.160 ten times a day, whereas on the side where the 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:53.079 school was, you know, you rarely see the police at all. 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:56.560 And I think we still see this today, like, you know, 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.520 even though now I'm uh, you know, middle class and 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:02.960 working for you know, a white corporation that doesn't pay 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:07.280 any rent, you know, I you know, it's the way 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:12.400 that policing, you know, the way that original and black 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:17.600 communities and especially original black and working class families of 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:19.720 police is very different to the way. 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:21.560 That wealthy suburbs, like. 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.519 Wealthy suburbs in Sydney and Melbourne here where I'm zooming 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:30.400 in from, is a completely different story. 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.760 Amanda is very modest. I want to say for our 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:37.200 listeners in Australia around the world that she's currently calling 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:41.320 to us from Melbourne Law School, having previously been at 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:48.520 u n s w Utes Australian National University, Oxford. So 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.080 one of the reasons we really wanted to have Amanda 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:54.840 on is this is someone who, as Amy said, we 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:58.960 both look up to whose writings we both read and 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:03.960 who clearly knows their stuff. And one thing that has 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:07.320 occurred last week obviously was the thirtieth anniversary of the 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:11.920 Royal Commission into Black Deaths in Custody. Amanda, I'm just wondering, 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.480 you know, thirty years on, what are your reflections on 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:19.599 where we are? And I guess more importantly, one thing 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:22.440 a lot of people have said to me is that 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:26.599 we hear that it's been thirty years, we hear the 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:30.000 number of people who have died since, we hear about 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:34.320 these recommendations, But what would you say are the things 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:39.560 we need to do asap to really start to tackle 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:40.440 this issue head on? 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:44.960 For me, for thirty years, it's just like groundhog Day, 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:49.880 may as well have been, you know, the final may 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:53.080 as well come out down, come out now, and nothing's 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:57.360 happened the recommendations. Still people don't understand that it was 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.279 written for Australians, and it was written for you know, 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:05.279 all Australians, the police, the media, the government bureaucrats, the 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:07.680 you know, so called leaders, and they just haven't been 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:11.360 acted on their you know, today, the Queensland Biel has 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:14.960 passed its completely at odds with all of the recommendations 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.680 right now, the things we need to do make sure 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:22.479 police and prisons are spar away from are out of 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:26.800 Aboriginal lives, everyday lives. And yet nothing has happened. There's 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:33.520 still you know, there's so recommendations that haven't been acted on. 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:37.279 There's you know, one of the for me, the thing 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:43.279 that is sickening and that made me feel ill to 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:48.200 my core last week was the fact that reflecting on 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.159 on on those recommendations and how all of the work 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:54.760 has been done by families, it just it just. 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:57.839 It just makes me feel ill to my core. 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.800 So, you know, one of the recommendations was to decriminalize 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:05.279 public drunkenness and that was you know, a recommendation that 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.160 came out of the interim report to the Royal Commission 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:10.240 and then it came out in the final report in 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:13.760 nineteen ninety one. And you know, how can it be that, 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.359 you know, in Queensland it's still a crime. There's so 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:19.600 many recommendations that say arrest is the last resort. Prison 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.320 as a last resort. It's clear there, you know, throughout 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:24.960 all of the pages and the volumes of this report 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:28.599 and the recommendations that the solution is to keep cops 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:32.560 out of Aboriginal lives, to keep make sure that, you know, 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:38.440 to make sure that we are divesting and defunding castlele solutions, 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:41.680 you know. And I say, I'm sorry that the slipper 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:45.680 shouldn't be because they're not solutions, They're just you know, 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:51.680 part of the festering, you know problem, that's the crux 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:52.039 of all this. 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:58.960 And yeah, you know, I don't know what to say. Really, 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:02.600 it was just such a shit show the last week. 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:07.440 And I'm just bitterly disappointed and can't make sense of 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:08.880 anything at all. 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.560 But you said, like, there's such a disconnect because I 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.920 noticed in the Royal Commission reporting last week it was 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.320 mainstream media or asking about why is this still an issue? 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.560 Why is this why are we still having different custodes? 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:23.040 And then you see what's. 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:25.520 Happening in Queensland today where they're trying to pass this 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:29.880 really draconian legislation which will overseve our black kids again, 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:36.840 where the media have been largely complicit producing propaganda. There's 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:40.000 such a disconnect in the way that that is reported 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:43.320 and that we're seeing it in real time that all 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:45.720 of the solutions are going the opposite way. As you 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:51.240 said towards locking up mobs. So it's yeah, I like 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:55.440 mirror your sort of distress would also you know, disoleete 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:59.040 and I don't know what to even call it. I 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:01.280 just think they don't really It comes down to that 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.240 they don't really talk because they're not taking through. And 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:08.120 then they continually ask families and advocates and activists and 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:10.560 people working in this area, why do we still have 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:11.680 so many deaths? 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:15.800 Yeah, I'm the lost too, I mean, and I'm sorry, 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:18.520 I'm just being really candid in my responses because you know, 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:22.280 you know, the media kind of reporting on it was 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:26.320 just hugely disappointing. I was expecting to see naively, you know, 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.920 justice for Nathan Reynolds, justice for ten your Day, justice 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:33.480 from a zoo trending on social media, and it didn't happen, 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:35.880 you know, when there was the work of starda Were 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.480 Foundation and all of the As I said, it's just 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:43.320 for me inexcusable. It's intolerable that it's families doing the work. 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:46.800 This is a document that was produced so that in 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.120 the hopes that families might be able to heal, and 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.360 there's just we're not not even close yet. Families that 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.000 are the ones doing all the work. So it's families 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:58.640 more so than government, more so, you know, more than 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:01.640 anyone that's you know that thanks to the Day family, 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:06.200 for example, in the state of Queensland that the decriminalized 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:11.000 the public drunkness has finally been decriminalized, and there's there's. 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:13.120 Still so much more work to go. But for me, 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:15.679 that's just inexcusable that that should fall on. 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:21.040 The hands of a family that you know, you know, 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:24.080 and even the way you know, it was even for 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:30.000 me personally disappointing to see that how this isn't recognized 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:31.600 by the mainstream media. 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.280 The you know that there's still this refusal to. 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:39.520 Hear anything but pain and and and I remember that 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:42.000 was the way that it was framed on on the 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:48.520 drum when April, the tendid Day's daughter and the founder 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:51.400 of the Judge Foundation, was was on. It's just a 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:54.800 people only want to hear about pain. They can't see 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:59.679 sovereign actors, they can't see people that are actually doing 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:06.000 all the emotional and intellectual labor. And yeah, as you say, Amy, 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:09.000 the example of the you know what's happening in Queensland 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:13.240 is is is just one of many examples of where 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:17.199 we've got, you know, policy which is completely at odds. 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:22.080 You know, these tough on crime laws that Paliches put 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:24.920 through this morning, it just makes my heart think it 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:29.560 just I don't I don't even have the words like 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.640 and it's just one examples, you know, so many examples 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:39.680 of of carthoral feminism, like so many examples bail policies 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:44.960 that are just troubling. Aspects of that legislation about you 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:49.240 know JEEP, which will expand police powers to allow police 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:53.040 to have GPS ankle bracelets and to allow them to 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:59.040 carry medal detectors. And really this is deeply, deeply troubling 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:03.240 because we know now there is so much evidence there 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:08.680 that you know, it needs to be about decriminalizing you know, 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:14.840 offenses and to and making sure police powers are curbed 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:21.600 not expanded on. And you know, we should be minimizing 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:25.359 the opportunity for police contact with original Tou Australiana communities, 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:27.880 not not thinking about how to maximize it. 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:31.240 And you know, I think it's just this. 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:35.400 I don't know, you know, I've spent a long time 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:40.040 trying to understand why this can happen. You know, going 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.760 back to your point Amy about you know, just how this, 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:46.680 you know, how we can find ourselves thirty years on 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:48.720 from the Royal Commission, when this is still happening. Is 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.160 it that they don't care? Is it that they don't know? 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:57.400 And yeah, I think it's I think it just goes 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:02.560 speaks to the deep ignorance of of the Australian apartheid 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:06.000 states that you know, people don't know this, you know, 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:11.120 because it's just they'd rather believe that whatever racist stereotypes 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:15.760 there are, that there's this refusal to read and to 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:20.440 come to terms with with the true history of of 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:24.000 this nation, that the history of the violence of policing 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:28.319 and the violent foundations and the violent contemporary operation of 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:33.760 of of policing here. And you know, as someone who 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:39.320 researches and teaches policing history, I think it's you know, 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:42.640 speaks volumes to the fact that you know that the 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:47.760 need for queens the Queensland Premiere to to read about 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:51.679 the you know, the frontier, how the foundations of QPS 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:57.480 lie in that you know, genocide and frontier wars and 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:00.960 and and I just think that the iance is so 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:05.920 so deep. But that's really that's the only way I 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:06.960 can make sense of it is. 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:11.120 Ignorance and prejudice. 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:15.760 I have a question that perhaps you could both answer, 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.880 maybe aim if you go first, which is, how do 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:23.080 we keep the mainstream media accountable, you know, and reporting 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:26.640 accurately on these issues, and not just taking sound bites 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:30.280 from politicians, but really doing the work to delve deep 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:35.000 into this issue when ask the experts and check facts 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:40.160 and make sure that they're not perpetuating harm and just 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:42.240 serving their role as the fourth estate. 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:45.160 I mean, I don't even know if I have an 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:47.560 answer for how to keep the mainstream media accountable, because 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:49.400 I feel like the mainstream media in a sense of 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:52.640 doing its job, and its job has often been on 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:54.600 the side of police and the side of control. 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:55.800 And you know why. 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:59.679 Aspirations when you look at particularly around you know, these 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:02.640 law and order responses, they're often around the idea of safety. 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:07.320 But safety for example, white women, of safety for white Australia, 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:11.440 So policing and the media and government they're often on 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:14.160 the same side when it comes to our mobs. And 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:17.200 so I don't even other than the fact that as 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.320 we saw with ten or seven, like Aberiginal mob are 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:23.080 very quick to resist those discourses. And I often find 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.440 like Aboriginal people in this country are the most distute 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.840 media commentators. And if it wasn't for black fellows coming 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:34.480 out straight away and contesting those really racist portrayals of 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:38.400 black kids as criminals and you know, as deviant and 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:43.480 as like these really horrunous policies is justified, then it 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:45.320 would still be up, you know what I mean. So 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:48.080 I think it really lies often in the resistance of 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:52.480 Aboriginal people to these media representations and portrayals. But it's 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:56.760 just often that we don't have a voice in those conversations, 0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:58.720 and so like, I never have a lot of hope 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:00.560 in the mainstream media that they go and change. And 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:02.400 we saw that just in what you know, Amanda was 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:04.360 talking about in the Royal Commission and the way the 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:08.720 Royal Commission anniversary was being reported in ways that they 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:12.680 weren't actually interested in the structure of violence and the 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:16.400 continual oppression that they are complicit in, but just in 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:21.160 hearing again wounds and trauma, you know, and that's all 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:24.760 we were being asked for. And so I think there's 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:31.200 a very different way that mainstream media is reporting. And 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:33.280 I was just thinking about in relation to cops as well, 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:35.680 like they're often and what you said about the you 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.280 know the police propaganda this week about the puppies. You know, 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:41.520 police are still and I think Amanda you could talk 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:45.800 about this too, like they're still seen in very uh 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:50.120 favorable white to Australians, which is really confusing for me 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:53.200 when you look at the actual history of policing and 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:56.520 not just you know history on the frontier, but recent 0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:58.720 history in relation to you know, the Fitzgerald Inquiry in 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:03.920 Queensland and oh this history around police brutality. Yes, I 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:07.280 don't know. You know, Australian still believe that the police 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:10.000 as a whole are good and then have their best 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:12.120 interests in mind in relations of safety. 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:20.280 Yeah, it's really interesting to me the kind of addiction 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:24.360 of the average Australian to the police and the you know, 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.040 blind faith. And I know I can't help but see 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:31.160 it like through the like a historian lens, just because 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:36.120 for me, there always has been two very different policing history. 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:40.400 So like the history of police for settlers was you 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.440 know the night Watch patrol, which was quite literally eleven 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:46.960 of the best behaved convicts and you know, for their 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:51.280 purpose was to look out for you know, the public 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:56.080 safety and best interests of the governor and settlement kind 0:16:56.080 --> 0:17:00.640 of families that were and people the settler popular within 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:05.840 the you know, within Sydney Cove and the growing colony, 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:08.439 and that's that, you know, that's very different when you 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.000 kind of trace the line of what happened there to 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:15.520 the history that happened at the colonial frontier, which was 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:19.240 the Mounted Police and the Border Police and the Native 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:21.840 police and it was you know, not just me, but 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:26.199 says that, you know, Henry Reynolds described the Mounted Police 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:29.480 as one of the most violent organizations in Austraie history. 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.720 But you know that to go back to Martin's question 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:37.560 about the ways to put pressure into flip what's going 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.520 on in the mainstream media, I mean, I don't I 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:42.480 don't know if I even have an answer to that, but. 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:44.400 I mean, I think it's interesting to look at that. 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:49.840 Example of the Queensland you know laws and how that 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:52.000 came to be. And it's that the same thing with 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:56.159 you know, to Amy's point about castural feminism, as I 0:17:56.200 --> 0:18:00.320 think that maybe it's something about media that they something 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:03.560 that's appealing to see the most punitive response pedled out 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.560 the most extreme response, and you know, because when you 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:10.760 think about it, like the you know, both uh you know, 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:16.280 whether it's the the tough on crime laws in Queensland 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:17.200 that was peddled out. 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:20.720 In response to uh, you know, I think there was. 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:25.280 A death involving involving speeding, and speeding is very different, 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:27.080 you know, like it's not I don't know if any 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:30.240 of these laws are actually gonna they're completely unrelated the 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:33.719 proposed laws to the initial response. But it's the you know, 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:36.560 the Premiere Palichet has to you know, come up with 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:42.159 some response, and she's obviously got the Queensland Police Union. 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:44.800 And I mean, and this is this is the bigger 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:47.520 issue than the media, is just the way in which 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:54.280 the police, regardless of what jurisdiction you're talking about, you know, 0:18:55.040 --> 0:19:00.720 have had you know, record budgets for the past god knows, 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.280 and and that as part of that, they have a 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:07.800 very well resourced media and pr unit that's able to 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:11.160 put these messages out and whenever, you know, there is 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:15.960 this you know, human tragedy that occurs, the police union 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:17.720 will be like, well, you know, you know, and again 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:21.000 the most powerful police unions are among the most powerful 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:24.320 in the nation that that have the premieres year to say, well, 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:27.480 these are the things that would make out a lot easier, 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:32.119 and it all just you know, it's all just feeds 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:36.400 off racist stereotypes and deficit discourses that are so deeply 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:40.040 ingrained in the Australian psyche. And you see that, for 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:43.480 example through what Martin was talking about with the with 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:47.400 with you know, the way even research is produced here. 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:51.880 So you know, uh, you know we had I I 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:55.840 confess I didn't see the channel not but you know, 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:59.399 I'm not surprised at the Australian corporate media. You know 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:03.680 we're peddling out you know, the I did see the 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:07.960 clip that Professor Ross Hommel gave it, and that was 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:09.880 that going back to my point, that was actually out 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:14.720 of police union conference and and I just wrote this down. 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.320 He said at this conference, and I quote, I get 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:20.919 emails from people Ross, why don't you talk more about 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:22.440 the Aborigines sick? 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:24.840 They are s I see. I mean that's I'm citing 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.399 it as as he said, they are always the offenders, 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:31.639 well them, Let's be honest. That is a statistical fact. 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:32.280 End quote. 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:36.600 So you know that when I say ingrained, I know 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:39.920 deeply ingrained in the And they can take that down 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:42.800 off their Twitter account, nine can take that down. 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:48.720 But it's not the public record, and you know, and 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:51.040 and it's just even the kind of. 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:54.879 The you can look up this this this full clip 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.080 on the internet, but you know, in in you know, 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:00.639 so it's often I think we're feeling the way that 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:05.480 people frame the problem. For for Ross Hommel, it was, 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.520 you know, kids who are a problem. In his words, 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:11.080 you know, he keeps talking to kids who are a problem, 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:15.320 you know, and you know, high risk children as this 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:16.520 is the language that it's. 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:20.560 Couched in, and in his speech the need. 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:24.480 To to start early and he says as early as five. 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:26.120 And and frankly it makes. 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:30.679 Me terrified because my niece and my nephew live up 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:33.639 in the engine and I just you know, these these 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:37.520 are the that that's the level that we're that the 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:40.879 soul operating up. That's how deep set it is in 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:45.680 the minds of so many Australians about you know, the 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:50.040 deficit that they see when they see black kids. 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:52.760 It's just it says. 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:57.800 You know nothing about you know, the Aboriginal kids themselves, 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:01.000 and it says so much about someone else perception of. 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:04.080 What they think about Aboriginal and black kids. 0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:07.480 Yeah, and you know, you could say, you know, that's 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:11.960 just the example of the you know, but I think 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:16.240 it's hugely, deeply problematic to have anyone that has these 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:21.320 you know, beliefs about Aboriginal kids to be going into 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:23.399 school and I think, you know, in school, you know, 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:25.399 it's important for kids just to have the chance to 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:29.080 be themselves and to be safe. And there's no understanding 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:31.919 as far as I'm concerned that for Aboriginal kids that 0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:34.680 you know, it's not it's not safe to be because 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:38.600 it's re traumatizing for kids, it's you know, they need 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:40.879 a chance just to just to you know, be a 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:44.399 young person like everyone else and to you know, receive 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:47.639 you just learn and enjoy being with friends at school, 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:51.359 like you know, there's a I think it's inexcusable that 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:55.399 there's fifty seven schools in Queensland that are participating in 0:22:55.440 --> 0:22:56.600 this program. 0:22:57.000 --> 0:22:59.840 That was part one of our discussion with Amanda Porter. 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:03.719 Before we bring you part two in the coming weeks, 0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:06.679 I'd like to encourage you just to consider what a 0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:10.520 man to spoke about then about police in schools and 0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:15.800 policing and talking about the way police discuss the criminality 0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:20.840 of children as young as kindergarten age kids, and consider 0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:24.040 that in the context of all we talk about in 0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:27.679 Curtain the podcast until next time, Thank you for your 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:28.600 ongoing support.