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Speaker 1: Hello there, it's Amantha. I'm currently on a Christmas break,

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Speaker 1: so I've handpicked a bunch of my favorite episodes from

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Speaker 1: the last year to share with you. Okay, on with

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Speaker 1: today's best of episode. I read a lot of books,

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Speaker 1: but it's rare to read one that fundamentally changes the

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Speaker 1: way you work. For me, that book was Deep Work

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Speaker 1: by Cal Newport. I read it back in twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 1: and in case you're not familiar with Cal, he's a

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Speaker 1: computer science professor at Georgetown University and also a best

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Speaker 1: selling author. Deep Work completely changed the way I approached

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Speaker 1: my work and made me infinitely more productive and happier

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Speaker 1: at work too, So you could probably imagine that when

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Speaker 1: I heard that Cal has just released his latest book,

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Speaker 1: A World Without Email, to say I was excited to

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Speaker 1: read it was an understatement. I immediately reached out to

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Speaker 1: get Cal back on the show, and I'm so excited

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Speaker 1: to share this chat. If you're keen to dramatically reduce

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Speaker 1: the amount of time you spend in your inbox, and

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Speaker 1: to not just try to do this with standard productivity

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Speaker 1: hacks like batch checking, then I think you're gonna love

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Speaker 1: this chat with Cal. My name is Doctor Ramanatha Inbo.

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Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science

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Speaker 1: consultancy Inventium, and this is how I work, a show

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Speaker 1: about how to help you do your best work. So,

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Speaker 1: given it's been about two years since I first had

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Speaker 1: Cal on the show, I was very keen to hear

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Speaker 1: about new work rituals or habits or processes that he'd

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Speaker 1: been implementing since we last spoke.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think one of the ideas that has clarified

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Speaker 2: in my mind, It's one of the big ideas in

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Speaker 2: the new book, is that when you're thinking about your

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Speaker 2: work and knowledge work, you should really think about yourself

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Speaker 2: as implementing a bunch of different separate processes the things

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Speaker 2: you do regularly in knowledge work, and you want to

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Speaker 2: think about how you implement these. And I've always thought

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Speaker 2: about process oriented workflows. But the big insight I've had

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Speaker 2: working on the new book is one of the main

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Speaker 2: things you want to optimize when you're thinking about these

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Speaker 2: different work processes is reducing unscheduled messaging. So how much

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Speaker 2: unscheduled messages do I have to receive to accomplish this

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Speaker 2: process or that process? And so a lot of my

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Speaker 2: new rituals. A lot of my new processes are seeing

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Speaker 2: to this light of how do I reduce the number

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Speaker 2: of unscheduled messages required to get this thing done or

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Speaker 2: to make progress on this regularly occurring obligation. And so

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Speaker 2: you'll see things in my life now, like when it

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Speaker 2: comes to doing publicity tour with like my US based

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Speaker 2: publicist for my book tour, we created a system using

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Speaker 2: a shared document where opportunities going to the document, questions

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Speaker 2: of me are put in the document. I checked the

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Speaker 2: document twice a week. I would come in and say, okay,

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Speaker 2: I'll do this one. Here's when I can do it.

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Speaker 2: I signed up for this one, and we found a

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Speaker 2: way for my US public see for example, just give

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Speaker 2: one example among many of booking interviews without emailing back

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Speaker 2: and forth. And so I think a lot of my

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Speaker 2: new rituals in the last two years are really built

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Speaker 2: around this idea of how do I reduce unscheduled messaging

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Speaker 2: to get things done?

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Speaker 1: What did your US publicists think about that notion? Because

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Speaker 1: that must be very novel for them.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean the fact that we were publicizing a

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Speaker 2: book about this certainly helps, right, So I could say, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's what it says in the book, But in general,

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Speaker 2: what I find with more structured collaboration processes is that

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Speaker 2: we often think what people really want is accessibility, but

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Speaker 2: it's not really true. What people want is clarity. And

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Speaker 2: if there's not clarity about how a certain collaboration happens,

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Speaker 2: then the default is people want just accessibility, because if

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Speaker 2: they don't know or trust that you're going to answer

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Speaker 2: something or keep track of something, or do something they

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Speaker 2: ask you to do, then what they'll want in the

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Speaker 2: in its stead is just okay, can you just answer

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Speaker 2: my message right away because I have to keep track

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Speaker 2: of this till I hear back from you. Once there's

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Speaker 2: something more structured in its place, people are just as happy.

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Speaker 2: The main thing that you really want to avoid, or

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Speaker 2: I found that people want to avoid, is just lack

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Speaker 2: of clarity. If there's no clarity, then I just want

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Speaker 2: you to answer right away, because otherwise I don't trust

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Speaker 2: something it's going to get done. If there is clarity, Oh,

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Speaker 2: it goes into this document. You checked the document twice

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Speaker 2: a week. Great, I get how that works. Good people

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Speaker 2: tend to be pretty happy with it, and I think

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Speaker 2: that's a there was a key understanding for me is

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Speaker 2: that you're not taking something away from people by placing

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Speaker 2: more structure about your interaction. You might actually be making

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Speaker 2: that interaction much more positive for that person.

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Speaker 1: Now, in your new book, A World Without Email, which

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Speaker 1: I was just saying before we hit record, I loved,

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Speaker 1: I devoured it. I had such high expectations for it,

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Speaker 1: and it still exceeded those expectations. So thank you for

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Speaker 1: running such a brilliant book. But one of the things

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Speaker 1: I appreciated is that you talk a lot about your

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Speaker 1: own processes in the book, and I want to dig

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Speaker 1: into some of those. So I want to start with

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Speaker 1: how you designed your workflow in Trello for your role

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Speaker 1: as the director of graduate Studies. And I was wondering

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Speaker 1: if if you could explain what that looks like exactly

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Speaker 1: and how you went about that design process well.

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Speaker 2: And this was certainly a role that had the threat

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Speaker 2: of generating lots and lots of unscheduled messaging. It's an

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Speaker 2: administrative role where I was both responsive to students, right,

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Speaker 2: so the grad students in our department would come to me,

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Speaker 2: did questions about anything. We're talking about complex logistical issues,

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Speaker 2: visa issues, grade issues, graduation requirement issues, steps required to

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Speaker 2: make sure that they defend their dissertation properly the right

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Speaker 2: things or filing. All of these things fell under my purview.

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Speaker 2: And then there was a lot of university facing back

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Speaker 2: and forth, what is our budget for the grad program

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Speaker 2: this year? What is happening with this particular student's tuition credits?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: So it was a very complex logistical job that we

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Speaker 2: sort of rotate through. So I came at it with

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Speaker 2: the mindset it was a great case study. I came

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Speaker 2: at it with the mindset that I lay out in

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Speaker 2: that book, A World Without Email, which was break us

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Speaker 2: down in the processes, what are the component things that

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Speaker 2: make up this job that happened again and again and

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Speaker 2: for each actually answer the question how do I want

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Speaker 2: to implement it? And that's where I came up with

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Speaker 2: using some of these different tools. So Trello certainly played

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Speaker 2: a big role. Everything that I was responsible for doing,

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Speaker 2: everything I was waiting to hear back from someone on

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Speaker 2: everything I needed to think about more and figure out

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Speaker 2: what it meant. Went onto a Trello board. I had

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Speaker 2: columns for different categories of these tasks. Some was not

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Speaker 2: urgent but need to think about it. Some was Okay,

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Speaker 2: it needs to be done really soon. A really key

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Speaker 2: column on here was waiting to hear back from someone.

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Speaker 2: So if I had sent a note to someone, can

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Speaker 2: you explain this to me? I need an answer to

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Speaker 2: a question, I would be able to keep track of that. Okay, oh,

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Speaker 2: here it is. I see that. That's something I'm waiting

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Speaker 2: to hear back from people. What I'm working on this week.

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Speaker 2: That trailer board became a repository of most of the

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Speaker 2: obligations they went onto that board, and then a few

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Speaker 2: times a week I would use that board, go at it,

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Speaker 2: look at it, organize it, and figure out, Okay, what

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Speaker 2: do I need to be working on in the next

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Speaker 2: few days. And so a lot of this was trying

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Speaker 2: to get stuff immediately out of my inbox and into

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Speaker 2: a system where I could see things all together. I

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Speaker 2: could batch things, I could dispatch things in one big conversation,

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Speaker 2: I could take things off my plate. It really gave

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Speaker 2: me just a visual lay of the land of everything

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Speaker 2: that was on my plate relevant to that role.

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Speaker 1: And so you're still in your inbox because I was curious,

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Speaker 1: what role does email then play for you in your life?

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Speaker 1: Because of these processes and workflows, that you've adopted.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the thing that I worry about is unscheduled messages,

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Speaker 2: not messages in general. I mean communication has to happen

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Speaker 2: to do collaborative work. The thing that I villainize in

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Speaker 2: my book is this notion of what I call the

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Speaker 2: hyperactive high mind, where you work most things out. It's

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Speaker 2: a common workflow where you work most things out with

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Speaker 2: these unscheduled back and forth digital conversations. That's a real

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Speaker 2: productivity killer. It's what I'm trying to avoid because once

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Speaker 2: you're using these ongoing, unstructured ad hoc back and forth

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Speaker 2: digital conversations as the main way that you get things done,

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Speaker 2: if you're doing more than a couple things, it means

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Speaker 2: you have to constantly be tending these communications and inboxes

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Speaker 2: because you're trying to keep up with lots of these

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Speaker 2: ongoing asynchronous conversations. So I don't mind email as a tool.

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Speaker 2: What I do mind is the hyperactive hive mind. So

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Speaker 2: everything I'm trying to do is to get away from

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Speaker 2: having a sort of back and forth unscheduled conversation happening digitally.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Finding the broadcast information emails great. If someone wants to

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Speaker 2: put something on my plate. I'm happy for it to

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Speaker 2: come via email. If I need to set something up

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Speaker 2: with someone, I'm happy to send that via email. But

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Speaker 2: the thing to really avoid is just what do you

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Speaker 2: think about this question? Mark?

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Speaker 1: All right?

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Speaker 2: When should we meet and let's go back and forth?

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Speaker 2: What do do you know anything about what's going on

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Speaker 2: over here with Bob? Can we get some sort of

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Speaker 2: solutions that's sort of back and forth, asynchronous back and

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Speaker 2: forth conversation. That is the real killer of productivity. So

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Speaker 2: that's what I was always trying to minimize.

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Speaker 1: Yes, oh gosh, and I know I can relate to that.

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Speaker 1: And it was so funny. As I was in the

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Speaker 1: process of reading your book, I kind of read it

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Speaker 1: over about a two or three day period. I was

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Speaker 1: thinking about my inbox and there's a particular new product

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Speaker 1: that I'm working on with a colleague, and I was

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Speaker 1: just thinking, I think I've got about six or seven

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Speaker 1: emails about different parts of that product that we're trying

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Speaker 1: to develop sitting in my inbox, and it was doing

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Speaker 1: my head in and I was procrastinating on responding. So

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I need to organize exactly what does she

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Speaker 1: need me to do and how long will it all take?

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Speaker 1: And the book really resonated with me because I think

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Speaker 1: that there are just so many instances where that happens.

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Speaker 1: So given that, like in a typical day, how often

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Speaker 1: would you be in your inbox? Given email does play

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Speaker 1: a role, but it's a much smaller role than people

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Speaker 1: think that it should play in their lives.

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Speaker 2: Well, first I'll just note, you know, speaking to your situation,

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Speaker 2: that would be a perfect example where the right thing

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Speaker 2: to do here, or a much more effective thing to

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Speaker 2: do there would be you have some sort of shared

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Speaker 2: system where all of the information, question task and ideas

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Speaker 2: around that product is all stored and everyone can see it,

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Speaker 2: and then they highly structured as twice a week, twenty

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Speaker 2: minute conversation. That's on the books. It's real time. What

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Speaker 2: are you working on, What happened to the thing you

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Speaker 2: were doing? What do you need for me to get

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Speaker 2: the next thing done? We're all on the same page. Good,

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Speaker 2: We'll talk in two days, no emails, forty minutes of

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Speaker 2: talking in a week, and you could be super productive.

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Speaker 2: But going back to my life, well, first of all,

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Speaker 2: I don't have a inbox singular. I think I have

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Speaker 2: something like six maybe seven different inboxes I'm not a

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Speaker 2: big believer in just having a single catch all email

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Speaker 2: addresses associated with your name. We have different roles, we

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Speaker 2: have different types of work we work on. Not all

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Speaker 2: of this should be, let's say, combined together, right in

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Speaker 2: one inbox. I have many different types of inboxes for

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Speaker 2: many different roles within my life as a writer and

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Speaker 2: a computer scientist. How and when I check them depends

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Speaker 2: on the day, depends on the season, right. So I'll

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Speaker 2: go some days where I'm just locked in working on

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Speaker 2: something hard, no email gets checked. I have other days where, okay,

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Speaker 2: I'm spending a lot of time in some of these

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Speaker 2: inboxes catching up on various announcements or questions that have

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Speaker 2: been sent in Those days will be pretty heavy email.

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Speaker 2: It just depends on what's going on that day. But

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Speaker 2: the key thing is I time block plan. I give

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Speaker 2: every minute of my day a job. I don't go

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Speaker 2: through my day reactively. So when it is I'm going

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Speaker 2: to check various email inboxes is figured out in advance.

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Speaker 2: It's never a default activity. It's never something I fall

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Speaker 2: back on to you say, Okay, what should I do next?

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Speaker 2: I prefer to make those decisions much more intentionally.

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Speaker 1: Do you time block, like literally every chunk of time

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Speaker 1: of your working day, let's say between nine to five.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean so if you use something like my

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Speaker 2: time block Planner product, it's literally a grid and there's

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Speaker 2: different columns in the grid. You start in the first column,

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Speaker 2: you mark off the hours, so all the hours of

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Speaker 2: your workday are there and have boxes for them, right,

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Speaker 2: and you draw boxes. You're blocking off every I'm in

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Speaker 2: a meeting here for these thirty minutes, I'm working on this.

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Speaker 2: For the next two hours, I'm working on this. You

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Speaker 2: really are planning. There is no gaps. Every minute of

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Speaker 2: your day gets a plan, and if you fall off

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Speaker 2: your plan, which happens, you move over to the next column,

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Speaker 2: fix the plan for the time that remains. And then

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Speaker 2: if you fall off that plan, you move over to

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Speaker 2: the next column and you can fix your plan for

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Speaker 2: the time that remains. But at any moment, the idea

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Speaker 2: is that what you're doing with the time that remains

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Speaker 2: in the day is something that you've given some thought to.

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Speaker 2: You're never in a time block planning approach. You're never reactive.

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Speaker 2: You never let the incoming determine what you're going to

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Speaker 2: work on that day, because that will one hundred percent

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Speaker 2: hijack all your time away from the things that really matter.

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Speaker 1: And I'm imagining that you would time blocking your lunch

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Speaker 1: or breaks as well.

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Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, here's why I'm going to take lunch. Here,

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Speaker 2: We're gonna take a break. One of the reasons why

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Speaker 2: people who time block get a bit of a productivity

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Speaker 2: boost is that they time block their breaks. It's a

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Speaker 2: subtle psychological thing. But if you don't plan when your

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Speaker 2: breaks are going to come, then any moment is potentially

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Speaker 2: a time you could take a break. So what happens

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Speaker 2: is you are all throughout the day having to have

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Speaker 2: this argument with your mind, should we take a break now,

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Speaker 2: should we jump on the email now? Should we look

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Speaker 2: on social media now? And if there's no pre plan

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Speaker 2: about when you're going to take those breaks, you're constantly

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Speaker 2: having this argument. You're going to lose that argument more

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Speaker 2: often than you win it, and you end up fragmenting

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Speaker 2: your attention way more so. Even just knowing here's my

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Speaker 2: checking email, here's why I'm just going to zone out

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Speaker 2: for thirty minutes and look on social media. Knowing when

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Speaker 2: that is has the advantage of in the other time,

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Speaker 2: you don't even have to have the debate.

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Speaker 1: Now you describe the personal caanban in your book, can

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Speaker 1: you talk about how you use it in your own life.

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Speaker 2: So I have one of these taskboards for each of

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Speaker 2: the different roles in my life. So when I was

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Speaker 2: a director of graduate studies, that was one board. I

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Speaker 2: have one board for writing. I have another board for

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Speaker 2: my computer science research, and I have another board for

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Speaker 2: I call it like professor. It's class related things and

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Speaker 2: university administration related things, right, so I sort of separate

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Speaker 2: those from research. So for each of those roles, I

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Speaker 2: have a board where I keep track of all the

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Speaker 2: things that I need to be doing and their status.

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Speaker 2: And youre look, well, I can load it up. I

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Speaker 2: have it right here, so let me load it up

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Speaker 2: on my computer. Depending on the board, I have different columns,

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Speaker 2: but I'm looking right now. For example, on my writer board,

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Speaker 2: I have a column called two process. So sometimes you're like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: here's something I need to work on, but I can't

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Speaker 2: even right now figure out what that means. Right, Like

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Speaker 2: I need to figure out a book launch campaign, Like

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Speaker 2: we need to get started on the book launch campaign,

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Speaker 2: and I don't even know what that means other than

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Speaker 2: we need to do this soon. So the two process

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Speaker 2: means here's things that need to be thought through and

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Speaker 2: figured out like what activities they actually relate to. Then

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Speaker 2: I have two different I call them back burner columns,

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Speaker 2: So these are things that they're not urgent, but the

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Speaker 2: things I want to do at some point probably, And

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Speaker 2: I have a couple of these different columns are just

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Speaker 2: kind of categorizing by whether it's related to book writing

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Speaker 2: or whether it's related to sort of more my book

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Speaker 2: business activities. I have a waiting to hear back column,

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Speaker 2: So to me, it's a huge mental relief to know

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Speaker 2: that if I am waiting to hear back from someone

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Speaker 2: about something, that it's written down somewhere, I don't have

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Speaker 2: to keep track of that in my head. Then I

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Speaker 2: have a column for this week, so I'll move cards

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Speaker 2: over to this week when I do my weekly plan. Okay,

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Speaker 2: these are the things that I want to actually get

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Speaker 2: done this week. I look at these boards detail at

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Speaker 2: the beginning of each week, I move things over to

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Speaker 2: the column for what I want to execute this week,

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Speaker 2: and then each day, as I make my plan, I

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Speaker 2: look at these boards, but really focus in on the

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Speaker 2: this week column and say, okay, which of these things

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Speaker 2: am I going to try to fit in today? And

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Speaker 2: so I have a board like this for all my

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Speaker 2: different roles.

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Speaker 1: In your book, you talk about a column in your

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Speaker 1: board that is called to discuss. Can you talk a

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Speaker 1: bit more about the two discuss columns? I found that

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Speaker 1: quite interesting.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that was critical for my director of Graduate Study

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Speaker 2: set up because there was a couple people in that

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Speaker 2: role that I had to talk two weekly. So there's

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Speaker 2: my department chair and there's lots of issues that the

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Speaker 2: department chair is the right person to talk to in

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Speaker 2: that role. And then also there's a program administrator, the

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Speaker 2: graduate program administrator with whom I worked, and so we

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Speaker 2: would meet a couple times a week usually, and so

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Speaker 2: it was sort of a two man job. And what

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Speaker 2: I had with this to Discuss column is I realized

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Speaker 2: I could save a ton of communication if every time

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Speaker 2: I had something I need to ask my department chair

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Speaker 2: or ask my program administrator instead of just shooting off

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Speaker 2: an email in that moment, which in the moment would

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Speaker 2: give me a little bit of relief. But every one

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Speaker 2: of those is a new unscheduled message that's out there

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Speaker 2: and a new unscheduled response that's going to come back,

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Speaker 2: and perhaps even a long back and forth chain of

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Speaker 2: unscheduled messages, which I learned doing the research for my

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Speaker 2: book is Productivity Poison. I would put it under the

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Speaker 2: two discussed column, and I actually had one for each

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Speaker 2: of those two different people. Then whenever I had my

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Speaker 2: next meeting with them, I'd be like, Okay, hold on,

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Speaker 2: I got a lot of things to go through here,

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Speaker 2: and the bam bam bam, bam bam, go through all

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Speaker 2: the things in that list, and we just resolve them

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Speaker 2: so quick because there's a real time back and forth.

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Speaker 2: Bam bam, bam, bam bam. Probably saved many dozens of

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Speaker 2: unscheduled emails per week by just waiting until I got

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Speaker 2: to those next meetings. So that was a great That

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Speaker 2: was a great productivity saver for that particular role.

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Speaker 1: Would you ever come across things that you're like, no,

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Speaker 1: that this is an urgent thing to discuss, or do

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Speaker 1: you think that people may be listening going well, when

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Speaker 1: I fire off an email to someone, I need a

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Speaker 1: response now, do you think that maybe just overestimating what

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Speaker 1: is urgent and what is not actually that urgent.

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Speaker 2: I mean, often when people think they need a response now.

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Speaker 2: It's because they don't want to keep track of it.

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Speaker 2: They say, Okay, I want a response now because I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you're going to answer or not, and

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Speaker 2: I can't. I'm not organized enough to keep track of

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Speaker 2: Like have I heard back from cal about this? So

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Speaker 2: I just I'm going to send you this email and

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Speaker 2: just get a response right away so I can take

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Speaker 2: this off the things I need to worry about. That's

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Speaker 2: usually why people need immediate responses. It's a function of disorganization,

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Speaker 2: not an actual function of urgency. Structure solves this problem.

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Speaker 2: Base Camp, for example, Jason Freed's company, their subject matter

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Speaker 2: experts have office hours. If you have a question for me,

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Speaker 2: wait till my office hours, come to my office hours,

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Speaker 2: ask me in my office hours. They worried that people

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Speaker 2: want it. Put up with the delay. I mean some

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Speaker 2: of these people only did office hours once a week,

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Speaker 2: so you could have up to seven days you had

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Speaker 2: to wait before you could ask someone a question. There

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Speaker 2: are very few complaints because it turned out urgency was

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Speaker 2: It's not really a big issue here. It's just clarity.

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Speaker 2: So if they know, oh, this is how I ask

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Speaker 2: questions on Monday mornings, I go there and ask you

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Speaker 2: this question. Okay, so I'll just have to wait till

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Speaker 2: Monday and then I'll ask you.

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Speaker 1: Let me.

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Speaker 2: People are fine. So again I come back to this

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Speaker 2: a lot clarity trump successibility. We need an urgent response,

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Speaker 2: typically not because this actually needs a response right now,

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Speaker 2: but because I don't want to keep track of it.

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Speaker 1: I do love that idea of applying the academic idea

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Speaker 1: of office hours to a company, and I loved what

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Speaker 1: base Camp for doing. Now I want to talk about outsourcing,

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Speaker 1: because you do write a bit about that in the

404
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Speaker 1: book What have you outsourced in your own work life?

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Speaker 2: I mean outsourcing. It's difficult, right, There's two different responses

406
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Speaker 2: to a common problem. The common problem here is that

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Speaker 2: the average knowledge worker does too much. And not only

408
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Speaker 2: they do too much, but we've created this productivity paradox

409
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Speaker 2: where modern technology made a lot of logistical or administrative

410
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Speaker 2: tasks just easy enough that anyone could do them, and

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Speaker 2: so we just put them on the plate, not of

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Speaker 2: support staff, but just of the people who are also

413
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Speaker 2: doing the frontline work. Right because when you have email,

414
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Speaker 2: now you don't need someone to type thing. Do you

415
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Speaker 2: have a work process or you don't need a typeis

416
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Speaker 2: you you know, we we've moved things onto the plate

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Speaker 2: of the frontline worker. So now the frontline worker has

418
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Speaker 2: way too much work and way too administrative work probably

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Speaker 2: on their plate to actually get a good return from

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Speaker 2: the brain power. So this is a real issue. It's

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Speaker 2: it's the it's called the diminishment of intellectual specializations, a

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Speaker 2: technical term net net. It probably makes us less profitable. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you save money by not having support staff, but you

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Speaker 2: lose money because you have to hire more expensive frontline

425
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Speaker 2: workers to get the same amount of work done. You

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Speaker 2: end up usually worse off. So how can we deal

427
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Speaker 2: with this problem? If let's say you're a solopreneur or a freelancer,

428
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Speaker 2: so you don't you know, you don't have support staff

429
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Speaker 2: and a company that you can you can put work

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Speaker 2: off to. Well, there's there's two responses here. One is

431
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Speaker 2: to outsource things, right, this has to be done, but

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Speaker 2: let me it is paying someone else to do this

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Speaker 2: is going to be net net better because I can

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Speaker 2: produce more valuable things. But the other option is to

435
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,159
Speaker 2: just minimize the amount of things on your plate in

436
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,960
Speaker 2: the first place. And so, I mean I heard someone

437
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,679
Speaker 2: say once I kind of like this idea. Once you

438
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:11,119
Speaker 2: get to the level where you think you need a

439
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,800
Speaker 2: personal assistant, your right response should be I need to

440
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 2: do less, not I need to hire a personal assistant.

441
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,400
Speaker 2: So in my life I've I've felt a tension between

442
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,680
Speaker 2: those two things. I've gone through periods where I've had

443
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:28,000
Speaker 2: assistant types handling more, and I've gone through periods where

444
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,080
Speaker 2: I've just tried to minimize take things off my plate,

445
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,880
Speaker 2: and usually taking things off my plate just not doing them,

446
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,920
Speaker 2: bypassing those opportunities, not doing this particular type of work

447
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,520
Speaker 2: that often work better now. The one exception is that

448
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,879
Speaker 2: there's certain things, especially in my business life as opposed

449
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,000
Speaker 2: to my CS life, that are technical and need to

450
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,439
Speaker 2: be done. And for technical things, I do have people

451
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 2: you know that are better at me. There's I have

452
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,399
Speaker 2: a web person on retainer so that the three dozen

453
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,360
Speaker 2: small issues involving my various websites and technology that comes

454
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,359
Speaker 2: up each week, I can just send those immediately to

455
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,480
Speaker 2: that person that's really worth the money. I have some

456
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 2: similar people who helped me with my podcast that's really

457
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,560
Speaker 2: worth you know, that's really worth the money. So I

458
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,400
Speaker 2: really evolve on this up and down, depending on how

459
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 2: busy I am. But that's the key tension I feel.

460
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 2: Should I do less or do I need help?

461
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 1: What's an example of something that you did take off

462
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 1: your place?

463
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,040
Speaker 2: Okay, so yeah, okay, these are yeah, good question. So

464
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,880
Speaker 2: like with my podcast, for example, I simplified the production

465
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,240
Speaker 2: to the point where there's I didn't need, for example,

466
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,399
Speaker 2: a producer or a production company that I had to

467
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 2: work with the sort of get the files edited and

468
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 2: put together. I said, I'd rather just create a simpler

469
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,439
Speaker 2: format for my podcast where I could just record it

470
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,399
Speaker 2: and edit on the fly and it's ready to go.

471
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: Right.

472
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 2: So now I do have someone that does the ads

473
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 2: for the podcast, though, because that's really annoying. You have

474
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 2: to actually deal with advertisers. You actually have to talk

475
00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 2: to people, You actually have to sign contracts and so

476
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 2: there I'll happily hire someone. But I didn't have a producer.

477
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 2: I took that out even though that's the standard thing

478
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 2: to do, and it wasn't a money issue, it was

479
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 2: a complexity issue. Now you have another person you're dealing with,

480
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 2: you have to get things to them in advance, You

481
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 2: have to explain things. There's more overhead working back and forth,

482
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 2: and so as an examp where I simplified something so

483
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have to worry about that. There's many different

484
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 2: types of opportunities to come my way that I just

485
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,959
Speaker 2: blanket don't do. I don't consult, I don't do advice calls.

486
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,959
Speaker 2: I do very limited speaking because again there's a lot

487
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,440
Speaker 2: of overhead involved with that. Now I could hire people

488
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 2: to help me with that overhead, but I'd rather just

489
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 2: not have the overhead in the first place. I had

490
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 2: someone who was helping me emails that had their own

491
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 2: email address, an assistant that could communicate on my behalf.

492
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,119
Speaker 2: But I found it simpler to actually just close up

493
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 2: the incoming channel, so less emails came through and there's

494
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 2: just less for me to answer. So, you know, this

495
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 2: type of thing shows up pretty often actually in my

496
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 2: work life, where I actually try to constrain things or

497
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,440
Speaker 2: simplify things as opposed to hire someone to handle something complex.

498
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 1: Do you still use a virtual assistant like you write

499
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 1: about in the book.

500
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 2: No, I don't work with her anymore. Yeah, I just

501
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 2: I Instead I simplified things. I simplify things even further

502
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 2: so there's less emails to deal with, and then I

503
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,239
Speaker 2: ended up with more subject matter experts. So you know,

504
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 2: I have my web person who can do a lot

505
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 2: of my internet stuff, and that took a lot off

506
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 2: my plate. And I had my publicist at the publisher

507
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 2: really could handle a lot of the publicity related things,

508
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 2: so I didn't really need the assistant to help with that,

509
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 2: and projects that I was using her for I just

510
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 2: stopped doing. So I was taking that original piece of advice, Hey,

511
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 2: when you need an assistant, maybe you need to do less.

512
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 2: I took that to heart and it's been okay, it's

513
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 2: worked pretty well.

514
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: I want to know what your process was for actually

515
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 1: writing the book. What were some of the workflows that

516
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 1: you had to actually create this book when you were

517
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 1: doing the researching and the actual writing it.

518
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an interesting question. People often ask me about

519
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,439
Speaker 2: my writings, and one of the reasons why it's a

520
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,360
Speaker 2: little bit hard for me to answer is just I've

521
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 2: always been writing books. I mean my entire adult life.

522
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 2: I signed my first book deal right after I turn

523
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,640
Speaker 2: twenty one. There's really no period in my life where

524
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 2: I'm not writing books at the same time as whatever

525
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 2: else is going on. Right, So it's almost like asking

526
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 2: a fish about water. I'm just very used to this

527
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 2: idea that one of the things that I'm always scheduling

528
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 2: time for week in and week out is reading, thinking, writing,

529
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 2: you know, and if I'm not actively working on a

530
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 2: book manuscript, I'm writing articles for magazines, I'm writing longer essays.

531
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 2: So I just am always putting aside a non trivial

532
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: amount of time to work on my book. Now, the

533
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 2: particular systems I use, it's really not that complicated. When

534
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,439
Speaker 2: I read books, I mark them up physically with a pencil,

535
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 2: so it's really easy to go back. I have a

536
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 2: particular format I use, really easy to go back and

537
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 2: find notes. I use online note taking systems typically, ever,

538
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 2: note I've experimented with a few others that actually capture

539
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 2: my various research I'm doing for a book. And then

540
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 2: at some point when I'm ready to write, I go

541
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,199
Speaker 2: chapter by chapter and I pull in the sources I

542
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 2: think irrelevant, I look through my notes, I go for

543
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,479
Speaker 2: a bunch of thinking thinking walks, and I just start writing.

544
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 2: So the tech behind my workflow is relatively straightforward, But

545
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 2: the scheduling is just something I'm so used to now

546
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 2: I'd be very uncomfortable, you know, if I wasn't putting

547
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 2: aside regular time. It's just always in my mind, when

548
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 2: can I get time to write? When can I get

549
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 2: time to think? And I'm always fighting for that.

550
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: Do you tend to do your writing at similar times

551
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: during the day or is it literally just when you

552
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 1: can find time.

553
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,360
Speaker 2: I'm all over the place in my book deep Work,

554
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: I call it the journalistic method of deep work. I'm

555
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 2: just used to looking for good opportunities to write. Oh

556
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 2: my wife's taking the kids to this thing. Great, that's

557
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 2: a period I can write. I don't I don't have

558
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 2: any meetings this morning. Let me write in the morning.

559
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 2: Oh here's a clear afternoon. Why don't I go to

560
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 2: the coffee shop and write. It's something I'm always looking

561
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 2: for good writing times, and I'll schedule times too. Of course,

562
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 2: at the beginning of the week, I'll try to set

563
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 2: aside my writing times, but I always have an eye

564
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 2: for that. I'm alway looking out for what would be

565
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 2: good times. I tend to write in the morning. That

566
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 2: tends to be my mess time. Writing is the one

567
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 2: thing I will do on the weekend. I don't do

568
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 2: normal work on the weekends. I'm a nine to five guy.

569
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 2: But the one exception is book writing. I will do

570
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 2: book writing on a weekend morning because I find it

571
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 2: quiet and a good time to concentrate. So I do

572
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 2: have those preferences. It's typically in the morning, but I'll

573
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 2: do many different locations and it can be quite flexible.

574
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: I remember when I last had you on the show,

575
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: imagery that stuck with me was around the different rituals

576
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 1: that you had for different types of deep work. And

577
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: I remember you describing your writing with the custom made

578
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: kind of library desk that you have in your house.

579
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 1: Is that something that you still do different rituals for

580
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 1: different types of deep work.

581
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I temporarily lost access to that library table

582
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 2: that I had custom built because of the COVID pandemic.

583
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 2: We converted my study into homeschool into a classroom for

584
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 2: the kids because our kids' school is closed for basically

585
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 2: a year. So I then leased, which i'm talking to

586
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 2: you from now. I lease some office space in town,

587
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 2: and I had a moving company. We took all my

588
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 2: books that because I used my books and my library,

589
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 2: I mean I use them all the time. I use

590
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 2: it like a real library. I had all my books shipped.

591
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 2: I mean it's three blocks from my house, but we

592
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 2: had to have a moving van come and I brought

593
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 2: all my books to this this new office space I

594
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 2: leased and I set we set up a library here

595
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 2: and brought in some new tables, so I have some

596
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 2: tables that are they're not as nice as my custom

597
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 2: built table. And brought in my rug and a reading

598
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 2: a leather reading chair. And so I created a new

599
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 2: headquarter because I think ritual is important and having environment

600
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: is important. Ritual is important. We should respect intense cognitive

601
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 2: work is something that we should take very seriously, be

602
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: willing to dedicate money, dedicate time, dedicate overhead to supporting

603
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 2: these type of efforts.

604
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: Was it easy to, I guess, shift that ritual into

605
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 1: a new physical location. Was there anything that you did,

606
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 1: aside from physically get all your stuff into that new

607
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: location to help get into flow more easily in those

608
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: first few sessions.

609
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 2: No, it's been hard. I think it's definitely hard because

610
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,479
Speaker 2: rituals really important, and so that study I was very

611
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 2: used to working in. The Other thing I was used

612
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 2: to doing is I did a lot of work at

613
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 2: coffee shop. There's a coffee shop near my house, and

614
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 2: I would go. I do a lot of my writing

615
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 2: there and it was another ritual. I would do morning writing,

616
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 2: and I would occasionally do like a happy hour session

617
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: of writing too, where you know, maybe you'd have a

618
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 2: beer or something and you're doing more brainstorming. And they

619
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 2: obviously all their seating was closed for the pandemic too,

620
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 2: So I lost my study and I lost my coffee shop.

621
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 2: So it wasn't Yeah, it wasn't easy to try to

622
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 2: shift shift to a new location to try to build

623
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 2: new habits here. The one thing I could still doing

624
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: was my walking ritual. So I do a lot of

625
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 2: thinking walking in my town, and that I could still

626
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 2: do and think, thank goodness I could. And I started

627
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 2: doing a little bit more work outside as well, even

628
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 2: when it's cold. I introduced that as a new ritual.

629
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 2: I'd go for a walk and you would sometimes find me,

630
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 2: and you know, it'd be cold outside and people be

631
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 2: in jackets, and I'd be at the park with my

632
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: lap you know, write a New Yorker piece or something

633
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 2: like that. So I added some more rituals once I

634
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 2: lost those old places to help jump start that creative impulse.

635
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: Hey, there, it's nearly time for a little ad to break.

636
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: But can I ask a favor of you. If you

637
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: are enjoying how I work and you're not one of

638
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: the several hundred people that has kindly left a review

639
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: for the show, I would be so incredibly grateful if

640
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: you could do so. It's a great way of letting

641
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: other people find out about how I work, and for me,

642
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: it's also really lovely hearing listener feedback. It really does

643
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: bring a smile to my face every time. And up

644
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: next after the break cal we'll be talking about how

645
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: you can dramatically reduce the amount of unscheduled communication at

646
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: your organization now in a world without email. You talk

647
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: about delineating between support versus specialist roles within knowledge workers'

648
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: work life, and I was wondering what does that look

649
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: like for you in terms of how you're petitioning your

650
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: time or days around those two roles.

651
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think there's two different types of

652
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: work and knowledge work. There's before I referred to it

653
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 2: as frontline work, but you can think of as specialist work.

654
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,959
Speaker 2: That's the actual application of value to information, the thing

655
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 2: that actually creates the value for the company, the ad copy,

656
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 2: the computer code, the new business strategies, right, the things

657
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 2: that you're selling or the things on which you're receiving funding.

658
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: And then there's all the support work that goes into

659
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 2: keeping the lights on. You know, the timesheets need to

660
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 2: be filed, the taxes need to be submitted, the bills

661
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 2: need to be paid. Right, so there's two different types

662
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 2: of work. There has been, as I called it before,

663
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 2: this diminishment of intellectual specialization, where I believe misapplied the

664
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 2: productivity potential of new technology. So as we went through

665
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 2: the personal computer revolution and the office network revolution and

666
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 2: the smartphone revolution, we got all of these quote unquote

667
00:30:55,120 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: productivity enhancing technology, so ways of implementing certain support activities

668
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: faster and more flexibly and quicker than before. We have

669
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: these computers. A word processor, for example, is much more

670
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 2: efficient than a typewriter. Right, we misapplied this revolution. In

671
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 2: my opinion, what we should have done is use this

672
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 2: revolution to make it cheaper to deploy a support staff,

673
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 2: because now support staff could do their work faster, they

674
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 2: can do it more efficiently. Maybe you don't need as

675
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 2: many support staff to support the same amount of specialist.

676
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 2: What we did instead is we fired the support staff

677
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 2: and so now the specialists can also do the support work.

678
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 2: Net I think that made things worse. Right, It so

679
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 2: diminishes the unbroken time required to actually produce the things

680
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 2: to create the frontline value for the organizations that you

681
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 2: end up having to hire a lot more of the

682
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 2: frontline workers to get the same amount of work done,

683
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 2: and it costs more. Like that added salary is more

684
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 2: than what you saved by firing the support staff. So

685
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 2: I think we need to go back towards more specialization.

686
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 2: And this is just a general trend in economics that

687
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 2: in general, specialization, as long as you can have efficient,

688
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 2: efficient information flow between the specialist units, is almost always

689
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 2: more economically productive than trying to be more general purpose.

690
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: There's actually a whole field of economists called transaction theory

691
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 2: that gets into this notion when thinking about factories and production,

692
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: but it applies to really any type of work. So broadly,

693
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 2: I think we need more intellectual specialization. People should be

694
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: doing less, We should separate support work more from frontline

695
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 2: specialist work. Each of those things should be much more

696
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 2: focused where people can really do what they do really well.

697
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 2: If you're a support specialist, you should be doing that

698
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 2: really well and be really well compensated for that. And

699
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 2: with new technologies, you can probably support a lot of people,

700
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 2: and if you're a frontline specialist, you should be doing

701
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: much less, but doing those things at a higher level

702
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 2: of accountability and be well compensated for it. I think

703
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: that is probably the most economically productive way of doing things. Unfortunately,

704
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 2: almost no organization does that right now. So the best

705
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 2: I can do is in the business I can control,

706
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 2: I try to minimize the amount of support work that's

707
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 2: just necessary. So that goes back what we were talking

708
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 2: about before about simplifying. And in my Georgetown work, I

709
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: really think of myself as it's different roles. It's like

710
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 2: I have two part time jobs. I'm a professor and

711
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 2: I am an assistant to a professor, and I treat

712
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 2: those as two separate jobs. I mean, in a perfect role,

713
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 2: there would be an actual assistant. I have to play

714
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,959
Speaker 2: both roles, but I really want to separate them, all right.

715
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 2: I have my part time job. I'm doing professor stuff,

716
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 2: and when I'm doing that, that's what I'm doing unbroken concentration.

717
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 2: Let's go, let's produce research, let's teach classes. And when

718
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 2: I'm doing assistant work is like, okay, let's do this.

719
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 2: Now we're doing emails and forums and trying to optimize

720
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 2: processes and get rid of unscheduled messages, and I really

721
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 2: treat those almost like two different part time jobs.

722
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: Is there an argument for you asking the university to

723
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: just provide an assistant like the what's the logic in going, Okay,

724
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: now I'm going to play the assistant role of a

725
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: professor as opposed to getting one.

726
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 2: Well, they won't. So I wrote a whole article about

727
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 2: this a couple of years ago for a public the

728
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: Chronicle of Higher Education, which is, you know, an industry publication,

729
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: And I wrote an article that was titled is email

730
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 2: making Professor Stupid? And I really got into this argument

731
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 2: about we place way too much administrative work on professor's

732
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 2: plates and it's unchecked. But the issue is it's kind

733
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 2: of an unresolvable problem. It's a very difficult problem. Universities

734
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 2: would say they don't have the resources. I don't think

735
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 2: that's true. I think well supported professors could produce much

736
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 2: more and be much more effective for the university than

737
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 2: non supported professors. I also think probably a large fraction

738
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: of the work that falls on professor's plates and universities

739
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 2: as not necessary. It's just in a university environment, it's

740
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 2: really more of like a federation. You have all of

741
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 2: these different units. It's kind of way more democratic than

742
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 2: a company. Right, there's not a CEO over university with

743
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: a profit motive that can come in and make big changes.

744
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 2: It's very more democratic at universities, and every unit has

745
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 2: their own objectives and for every unit, getting some of

746
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 2: your time and attention makes their life easier. And so

747
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 2: you just have a bunch of these independent units, all

748
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,879
Speaker 2: trying to do their job as well as possible, all

749
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 2: of them wanting more of your time and attention. Hey,

750
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 2: if you could just figure out this complex form, it

751
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 2: makes our life easier. So professor, figure out this complex

752
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 2: for me. All right, we need this information professor to

753
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 2: do our COI filings this year, and it's a pain

754
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 2: for us to try to put this in the right format.

755
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 2: So we're going to give you a very complicated online

756
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 2: intranet portal you have to figure out and aren't going

757
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 2: to understand, because it'd make our life easier if you

758
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 2: could do that better. Everyone is just trying to pull

759
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 2: from everyone's time and attention with no one looking down

760
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 2: at the whole thing saying, oh, our profits are down

761
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 2: this quarter leave our programmers alone. Like you know, if

762
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:26,919
Speaker 2: you're in a different type of company, it's a different

763
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,399
Speaker 2: type of feel. So I actually think it's a real

764
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 2: problem in universities. I think we have significantly significantly diminished

765
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 2: the cognitive freedom and capacities of the professors, which is

766
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 2: kind of counterproductive. But as I learned after I published

767
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 2: that article, it's not easily fixed.

768
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 1: Us thinking about your university, Georgetown, has anyone at Georgetown

769
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: reached out to you and said, cal can you help

770
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: us fix the problem here at this university.

771
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 2: I had lunch with the dean after that article, so

772
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 2: I think they're sympathetic. It's hard, though, right, I mean,

773
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,760
Speaker 2: it is a hard problem. If I had a university

774
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 2: that I wanted to really increase the reputation of, this

775
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 2: would be my advice. Make this thing a citadel of concentration.

776
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 2: If you come here as a professor, you were going

777
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 2: to think and you were going to teach, and that

778
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 2: is it. You don't even need an email address, like,

779
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 2: we will take care of that for you. We're going

780
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 2: to give you an office. It's esthetically pleasing, like it's

781
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 2: going to be Cambridge in the nineteen twenties, there's going

782
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 2: to be a fire going in the fireplace, and you'll

783
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 2: have brandy in the evening, and the whole thing will

784
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 2: be set around you producing the best thoughts you can

785
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: with your brain. You would put some of the best

786
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 2: talent in the country to a school like that, right,

787
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 2: That's what I would do. It's very hard to go

788
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,479
Speaker 2: back and do that retroactively once you have your huge

789
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 2: university with fifty different units that each have your own constituencies.

790
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 2: I mean, famously, one of the hardest things at universities

791
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,919
Speaker 2: is that once something comes into existence, it's very hard

792
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,280
Speaker 2: to get rid of it. It just becomes a permanent

793
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 2: part of the university landscape. And I see every one

794
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 2: of these units from an attention capital perspective as a

795
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 2: different sink for attention capital, because every one of these

796
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 2: units is going to need some attention capital from other

797
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 2: people in the university to survive. And so it's like

798
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 2: you have so much In a different metaphor, you have

799
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: so only so much petroleum, you know, for your motorized army,

800
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 2: And as you add more and more units, they each

801
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 2: see a little bit more petroleum, Like you're eventually going

802
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 2: to run out right, and your frontline units aren't going

803
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 2: to have much gas left to do their movement right.

804
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 2: There's only so much concentration, attention capital to go around,

805
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 2: but it's very hard to go backwards. But that's my model.

806
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 2: I think the citadel of concentration model is one that

807
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 2: more schools should follow. I think they'd really be punching

808
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 2: above their weight class if they did so.

809
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,720
Speaker 1: For organizations that exist already, should we be thinking about

810
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: making workflow changes gradually to reduce what we're relying on

811
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 1: email for or do we do it all at once?

812
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: What's the ideal way to approach this.

813
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 2: What I think organizations should do is focus first at

814
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 2: the team level. So I think that's the appropriate scope

815
00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 2: at which to make these type of changes. If you're

816
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 2: in a large organization and you try to do workflow

817
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 2: engineering at the organization level, it's difficult. You're not flexible enough,

818
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 2: one size fits all solutions aren't going to work, and

819
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 2: you really run the risk of falling into bureaucracy territory.

820
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 2: And bureaucracy territory can be just as bad, where you

821
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 2: feel like there's these arbitrary roles that you had little

822
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 2: say in and in the end are causing more harmed

823
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 2: and goods, So you really want to avoid that. So

824
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 2: I think the team, which a term I use loosely,

825
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 2: but most organizations have some notion of a team that's

826
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 2: the right level, so a group of people who consistently

827
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 2: work together on consistent outcomes. The right thing to do

828
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 2: right away is say, the hyperactive high mind workflow is

829
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 2: what we're trying to get away from, where we just

830
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 2: figure things out back and forth messages. And the other

831
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 2: thing to do right away is like, let's list out

832
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 2: all the different things this team does. I call them processes,

833
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: you call them what you want, but here are the

834
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 2: things we repeatedly do. Our long term goal will then

835
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 2: be processed by process to figure out how to implement

836
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 2: it without the high mind, without so many unscheduled messages.

837
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 2: It may then take a long time to get through

838
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 2: all those processes. Start with the low hanging fruit. You're

839
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 2: going to have to go back and tweak things. That

840
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 2: could be a long term process to get through all

841
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 2: the different processes, and momentum will build as you get

842
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 2: better and better at it, so that could take a while,

843
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,800
Speaker 2: but your goal up front should become pretty clear in terms.

844
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: Of loe hanging free let's just imagine a typical professional

845
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 1: services organization that's full of knowledge workers. Are there processes

846
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: that you find it tend to be lie hanging for it?

847
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean there's a couple of things. One, meeting

848
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 2: scheduling software has to be the standard. There cannot be

849
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 2: meetings being scheduled with back and forth emails. Well what

850
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 2: about Tuesday? No Tuesdays not too good? What about Wednesday?

851
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 2: I might be free in the afternoon. Is it a

852
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 2: huge productivity sync? We don't realize it. But here's the issue.

853
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 2: Setting up a meeting via email just back and forth

854
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 2: might on average generate let's say six messages, right, So

855
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 2: that's six times someone has to pay attention shift their

856
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 2: context to that email inbox. But the thing about meeting

857
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 2: scheduling is that has to happen kind of quick, right,

858
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 2: Like I don't want to spend a week to set

859
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 2: up a meeting for you. That meeting might be in

860
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 2: two days, Right, So I have to check the inbox

861
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 2: quite a bit each of those messages so that I

862
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 2: see it pretty soon after it comes. So now six

863
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 2: messages might actually generate sixty inbox checks in just a

864
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 2: couple of days. Each one of those inbox checks, breaking

865
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 2: your concentration and initiating a very cognitively expensive context shift.

866
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: Just one meeting, therefore, can be a scheduling one meeting

867
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 2: could be a pretty big cognitive disaster. Now multiply that

868
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 2: over ten or fifteen meetings you're trying to set up.

869
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 2: That simple thing alone can significantly reduce a team's ability

870
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 2: to get things done. So everyone should use meeting scheduling software. Great,

871
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 2: let's do it. You know where my link is, schedule it.

872
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 2: One email meeting gets scheduled, So I think that's low

873
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 2: hanging fruit. Office hours are also low hanging fruit. Any

874
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: sort of small questions, what about this? I don't understand this?

875
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 2: Can we quickly figure out when we want to do that?

876
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 2: Who's going to take on this? As much as you

877
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 2: can divert as possible to just come to my next

878
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 2: office hours. Just come to my next office hours. We

879
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 2: will talk in real time then, not back and forth messaging.

880
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,399
Speaker 2: That is applicable to almost an industry. So do those

881
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,839
Speaker 2: two things, meeting scheduling software and office hours that can

882
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 2: handle eighty percent of small questions, discussions and clarifications. Those

883
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 2: two things alone, for almost any team, will make a

884
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: huge difference with.

885
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: Meeting scheduling software. What are you currently recommending that people

886
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: check out?

887
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 2: Well, there's a bunch of tools that are relatively equivalent

888
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 2: right now. I've used a couple. I've used Acuity in

889
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: the past. At the moment, I'm using Calendly. I like

890
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 2: them both. I mean, maybe Calendly has a slightly slicker interface.

891
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 2: I think Microsoft Suite has its own meeting scheduling link

892
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 2: type software built into it. I mean I occasionally get

893
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 2: links from people that are built out of the Microsoft

894
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 2: Productivity Suite. People like x dot Ai a lot. It's

895
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 2: another meeting scheduling tool for group meetings. Doodles pretty good.

896
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: I think that's kind of a default. The other tools

897
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 2: are getting those, but they're all pretty equivalent. I mean,

898
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 2: it's not a hard thing that you're doing here. You're

899
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 2: just trying to avoid the back and forth to the

900
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 2: point it's so important. Let's say you want to set

901
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 2: up a meeting with someone and for whatever reason, because

902
00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 2: of their personality, you just know that, no matter how

903
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 2: how much you social engineer it, if you send them

904
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 2: a link, they're going to be upset because you're at

905
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 2: a lower station to them to even go through that

906
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 2: software and manually list out fifteen different times they can

907
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 2: choose from. That may seem like, WHOA, that's really inefficient.

908
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 2: That's going to take me ten minutes to list out

909
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 2: all these times when I could just shoot off a

910
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 2: message that says how about Wednesday. But spending fifteen minutes

911
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 2: to list a bunch of times in an email that

912
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 2: that person can then just grab one that is worth

913
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 2: it because fifteen minutes concentrated in the one task is

914
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 2: way less of a cost than six messages you have

915
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 2: to check your inbox ten times for each. So even

916
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 2: if you're just literally manually doing implementing the software by

917
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 2: just listing out a bunch of times laying someone choose it,

918
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 2: it's still a win, because that's how devastating these unscheduled

919
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 2: messages are.

920
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: Now. In the book, you talk about thinking about workflows

921
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 1: and processes with customers and suppliers and potentially just looking

922
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: internal first rather than trying to change things with people

923
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 1: outside the organization. But let's just say we're starting at

924
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 1: the team level and there are a lot of processes

925
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: that involve customers or suppliers. Should we be trying to

926
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: change these? Because I know in your book, you give

927
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: examples of how you've avoided doing that. But then it

928
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 1: was interesting hearing you talk about how you're working with

929
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: your publicist for the book, and you know they are

930
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: an external partner. I guess, so what's your view on that?

931
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 2: So when you're doing individual work, and this might be

932
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,399
Speaker 2: what you're referencing, So you can always start by trying

933
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 2: to just optimize your processes from a personal perspective, given

934
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 2: just what I can control, how can I minimize unscheduled messages?

935
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 2: And I advise in the book if you're doing that,

936
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:44,879
Speaker 2: which you should do because, by the way, even if

937
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,240
Speaker 2: you can't control anyone else in your team, just thinking

938
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:49,240
Speaker 2: that way for your own processes makes a big difference.

939
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 2: Don't advertise it, right, So that was the argument, don't

940
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 2: advertise what you're doing, because it's just going to make

941
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 2: people upset, you know, apologize once they're actually upset. Don't

942
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 2: give them a reason upset about something they didn't realize

943
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 2: they should be upset about. When you're working as a

944
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 2: team on these processes, then of course that's not an

945
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 2: issue because everyone has buy in when it comes to clients.

946
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 2: I do think you need to engineer these protocols. I

947
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:18,800
Speaker 2: do think you need to move away from unscheduled messaging,

948
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 2: and you do need to tell them what you're doing,

949
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 2: but maybe just be careful about how you advertise it.

950
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 2: Never advertise these new protocols from the perspective of making

951
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 2: your life easier. It always has to come from the

952
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 2: perspective of making the relationship better, being more structured, being

953
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 2: more responsive, being able to better serve the client right,

954
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 2: And I do think that's very important to build. In specific,

955
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 2: we should be very clear about how we interact with

956
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 2: each of our clients, how they send questions, how we

957
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,879
Speaker 2: give them updates. Clients love this. It is much more

958
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 2: important to clients that they have clarity about how they

959
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 2: interact with you than it is that they have constant accessibility.

960
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 2: I mean, it is the point that we talked about earlier.

961
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 2: Ability is something that people demand only when there's nothing

962
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 2: else to assuage their fears that something's going to be lost.

963
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 2: So with clients, I think you do need to do

964
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:07,959
Speaker 2: that work.

965
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: In the book, you talk about the thirty X rule,

966
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: which I loved. Can you describe this.

967
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 2: It's a standard idea from outsourcing, thinking that you know

968
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 2: if you're going to do something more than thirty times.

969
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:22,919
Speaker 2: I think this is a year I have that right,

970
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 2: then it's worth automating or outsourcing.

971
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 1: Right.

972
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 2: So if it's something if you're gonna do with that

973
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: much times in the overhead of figuring out how to

974
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,720
Speaker 2: outsource or automate, it is probably worth it. We probably

975
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: don't have to be that specific, but I think the

976
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 2: general idea there is a useful heuristic. If something's going

977
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 2: to happen repeatedly, then it's really worse thinking through what's

978
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 2: our process for this. You know, if something is just

979
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 2: happening one time, then let's not spend too much time

980
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 2: trying to figure out the optimal way to get this

981
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 2: thing done. If it's never going to happen again, it's

982
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 2: a sort of you know, there's some business emergency and

983
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 2: we have to go, you know, figure out how to

984
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 2: solve some issue that's unlikely to come up again. Then

985
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 2: it's less important that we figure out the optimal way

986
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,919
Speaker 2: to do that. But if this happens every month, let's

987
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 2: figure out our rules, all right. This information goes into

988
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 2: a shared doc. We have the shared meeting on the calendar.

989
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 2: That's when it's worth the overhead of trying to put

990
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:11,839
Speaker 2: in place a better process.

991
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 1: Now, when I finished reading A World Without Email, I

992
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: immediately ironically cringe as I say this. I emailed my

993
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 1: CEO my organization, Inventium, and I said, Mish, you have

994
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: to read this book and we have to apply it.

995
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 1: And so with that in mind, where a management consultancy,

996
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:33,280
Speaker 1: we specialize in innovation and productivity, where should we start.

997
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: We are a ten person team, but then we work

998
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: in smaller teams on different projects. Where do we start?

999
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 2: Cal Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, I would say,

1000
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 2: don't cringe about sending the email. The semi provocative title aside,

1001
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 2: the book is really about how to get past the

1002
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,919
Speaker 2: hyperactive high mind workflow. I'm happy for email to be around.

1003
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 2: I don't want to leave voicemails. I don't want to

1004
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 2: fax things, So I'm happy. I'm happy that email is here.

1005
00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 2: What I don't want is to hyper active high mind.

1006
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 2: I don't want to work everything out with back and

1007
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 2: forth messaging. So there's nothing wrong with that's actually a

1008
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 2: good use of email. I am sending you some information.

1009
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 2: You should look at this. Here's something we should discuss

1010
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 2: next time we meet. I think you might like this

1011
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 2: that's a perfect use for email. The wrong use for

1012
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 2: email would be thoughts, question mark, you know, at the

1013
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 2: end of that message, and then you and your CEO

1014
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 2: trying to figure this out with back and forth messages.

1015
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 2: That would be that would be a worse be a

1016
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 2: worst use of email. So where should you start list

1017
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 2: out the processes? What are the things as a management

1018
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 2: consultancy that we do again and again and again. These

1019
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 2: are the core things we have to do to make

1020
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 2: money and keep the business running. Okay, Now, for each

1021
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 2: of these, we can go one by one and we

1022
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 2: don't have to do this all at once. We can

1023
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:39,879
Speaker 2: start with the low hanging fruit. How do we actually

1024
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 2: want to implement these processes? If we don't have an

1025
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,720
Speaker 2: existing answer to that question, the default answer is probably

1026
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 2: the hyperactive hive mind. It's just we just get this

1027
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 2: done by messaging each other. How do we actually want

1028
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 2: to do it? And everyone should have buy in everyone

1029
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 2: involved in this process, Like, Okay, here it is, let's

1030
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 2: write it down somewhere. Here's how we're going to try

1031
00:47:57,880 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 2: to implement this. We'll check back in two weeks. And

1032
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:01,959
Speaker 2: here there's our escape hat. So if like something bad

1033
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 2: happens and the process isn't working. Here's what we do.

1034
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 2: You call me on my cell. Here's to fall back routine,

1035
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 2: and you try it, and you evolve it, and you

1036
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 2: do this process by process every time, trying to minimize

1037
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 2: unscheduled messages. That's the metric. Right In the industrial sector,

1038
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 2: the metric was how do we minimize the man hours

1039
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 2: required to produce the car. In the brain work sector,

1040
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 2: the metric for these processes is how do we minimize

1041
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 2: the number of unscheduled messages that have to be received

1042
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 2: and replied to an order to get this done. That

1043
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 2: is our equivalent of assembly line speed. And you just

1044
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 2: go process by process, write down what you're doing, try it, adjust,

1045
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 2: get something you like, move on to the next. And

1046
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 2: it's simple. And it's hard, because hey, it's hard to

1047
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 2: get these things right. And sometimes the answer is maybe

1048
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 2: we shouldn't do this process, you know, because it's really

1049
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 2: there's no way to do this without lots of interruptions.

1050
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 2: It's not that valuable to us. I'd rather lose this

1051
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,879
Speaker 2: classic client than have to constantly be on beck and call.

1052
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 2: So it's not always easy, but the approach is pretty straightforward.

1053
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: I read in your book. But you're not a fan

1054
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: of auto responders on email, and I've had one for

1055
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:06,839
Speaker 1: a while. And one of the reasons why I have

1056
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 1: one now is that we gosh nearly a year ago,

1057
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: we implemented a four day week at Inventium, and my

1058
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: auto responder tells people that I'm generally not available on Fridays.

1059
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: But you're not a fan of auto responders, So I'm

1060
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: wondering if you can explain why you're not and if

1061
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: you would recommend that maybe I'd just switched that off

1062
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:27,720
Speaker 1: after this interview.

1063
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 2: I would look, if someone complains, you can explain it

1064
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 2: to them. But I think you'll have zero to one

1065
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 2: person complain in the next six months, you know what

1066
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,800
Speaker 2: I mean. I think when it's about am I away,

1067
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 2: am I here, am I whatever, it's best just to

1068
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 2: have your systems and just execute, and you know, if

1069
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 2: someone gets upset, you can explain to them what's going on.

1070
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 2: But I don't think it's necessary to preemptively explain to

1071
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 2: people how you're implementing your system or when you're going

1072
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 2: to be awound or when you're going to be away. Now,

1073
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 2: I think that the fact that we use these auto

1074
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 2: responders and being away one day a week is a

1075
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 2: very mild case. One of my readers sent me a

1076
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 2: much more extreme case recently where someone had to set

1077
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 2: up an auto responder because their power went out or

1078
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 2: something for an hour and it was like, okay, I

1079
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 2: might not have my email back for an hour. When

1080
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:19,760
Speaker 2: you see that, he's like, Okay, you were completely captured

1081
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 2: by the hive mind.

1082
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 1: Right.

1083
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 2: That's like going to the car factory and they're building

1084
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 2: the cars with the lights out to try to save

1085
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 2: money on electricity, and they produce one car a day

1086
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 2: and they're missing a wheel, right, Like it's crazy, right,

1087
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 2: you know that you are working in a terrible way.

1088
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,879
Speaker 2: You're you're you're you're optimizing in the moment convenience over

1089
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 2: actually producing things. That's valuable. Right, But even in your case,

1090
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 2: it's not crazy to have an auto responder. Stuff's not standard.

1091
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 2: But I usually just say just go for it, right.

1092
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 2: I mean, when most people are sending an email, they're

1093
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 2: just happy that it's off their plate and they're not

1094
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 2: sitting there, you know what I mean, And they're not

1095
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:52,839
Speaker 2: unless it's you know, again, one of these situations where

1096
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 2: it's a client and they don't trust you and they

1097
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 2: need a response right away. But in that case, you

1098
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 2: have a bigger problem. You know you need to solve that.

1099
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 2: You need to solve that problem of we need a

1100
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 2: more structured way of dealing with things. But I bet

1101
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 2: you and you should test this. Take off that auto

1102
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,240
Speaker 2: responder and say, I'm ready to apologize fully to anyone

1103
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 2: who says, why did you not answer my Friday email

1104
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 2: on Friday? And I bet you'll have almost no one

1105
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 2: who ever says that to you.

1106
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 1: I'm going to switch it off immediately after this interview. Now,

1107
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 1: I want to know what your next book, what you're

1108
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 1: thinking about for your next book, because I remember when

1109
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: we spoke last time you were thinking about and I

1110
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: think the title did not change your World Without Email?

1111
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 1: So what are you thinking for your next book?

1112
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not sure yet. The thing about A

1113
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:35,879
Speaker 2: World Without Email is that I started it right after

1114
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 2: deep work, So in twenty sixteen I started working on

1115
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: this book. It was the natural follow up. A lot

1116
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 2: of the early interviews in the book were done in

1117
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, and then I put the book on hold

1118
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,800
Speaker 2: the Right Digital Minimalism, which I published in twenty nineteen

1119
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 2: because that topic seemed to really, really timely and then

1120
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 2: I came back to finish a world without email. So

1121
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 2: when we last talked, there was no doubt what I

1122
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 2: was working on, because I had been working on that

1123
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 2: book for years by the time we talked this time around.

1124
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:04,320
Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure yet. So I have some ideas.

1125
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 2: I'm not sure exactly which direction I'm going to go. Typically,

1126
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 2: the year that I publish a book, I start working

1127
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,240
Speaker 2: on the next so that I can distract myself, because

1128
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 2: once a book is out of my hands, I don't

1129
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 2: like that because I can't control it anymore. So I

1130
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 2: like to have something else to occupy me. But this year,

1131
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 2: we had the pandemic, and I put a lot of

1132
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 2: my that same part of my brain. I put a

1133
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 2: lot of that intention into starting a podcast, and so

1134
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 2: I think that that distracted me enough that I didn't

1135
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 2: start a new book yet. So I'm open to ideas. Actually,

1136
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 2: so you let me let me know, let me know

1137
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 2: if I have a couple, but let me know if

1138
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 2: you have a great idea, because I'm still a free

1139
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 2: agent right now.

1140
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 1: I will. And look, my final question for you is

1141
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 1: how can people connect with you? Presumably not over email,

1142
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 1: but how can people connect with you? And get the

1143
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 1: hands on a copy of A World Without Email.

1144
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not super easy to get in touch with,

1145
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 2: but I'm not that hard to find out about. I

1146
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 2: guess that's something. So A World Without Email you can

1147
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 2: find any of the places that you buy books if

1148
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:00,799
Speaker 2: you want to get I write this equally essay I've

1149
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 2: been doing since two thousand and seven. You can find

1150
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 2: it at calnwport dot com so you can sign up

1151
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 2: for my email newsletter and I write about these topics

1152
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,919
Speaker 2: every week and a big audience that listens to it there.

1153
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 2: I also have a podcast called Deep Questions, and I

1154
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,839
Speaker 2: answer it's questions from my readers, and it's about all

1155
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 2: these type of topics. So if if you like this

1156
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 2: type of information, you might enjoy that podcast as well.

1157
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 1: Excellent. I will link to all that in the show notes.

1158
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 1: Cal It's just been an absolute highlight for me. Having

1159
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 1: you back on your work has just influenced me to

1160
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 1: no end in my working life. So thank you for

1161
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 1: your time today and just for everything that you are

1162
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: putting out into the world.

1163
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 2: Well, no, I appreciate it, and you know, I don't

1164
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 2: always get a chance to really geek out about the

1165
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 2: specifics of my systems and how I think about organizing

1166
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,360
Speaker 2: work because for a lot of people, you know, their

1167
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 2: eyes glass over. So I like being among my tribe,

1168
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 2: that is, the fellow productivity geeks out there, So it's

1169
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 2: always a pleasure.

1170
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Cal Hello there. That is eat for

1171
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:03,359
Speaker 1: today's show. If you enjoyed today's episode, why not share

1172
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: it with someone else that you think would benefit and

1173
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 1: maybe get some useful tips to improve the way that

1174
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 1: they work. How I Work is produced by Inventing with

1175
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 1: production support from dead Set Studios. And thank you to

1176
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 1: Martin Nimba who does the audio mix for every show

1177
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 1: and makes everything sound so much better than it would

1178
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 1: have otherwise. See you next time.