1
00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:04,480
Speaker 1: It's a Happy Families podcast with Dr Justin Coulson, where

2
00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,720
Speaker 1: Luke and Suzie parents of three little boys, and this

3
00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:09,800
Speaker 1: is the podcast for those of us who are time

4
00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:11,560
Speaker 1: poor parents. But just one answers.

5
00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,640
Speaker 2: Now, it's an interesting statement that doctor Justin Coulson has

6
00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,919
Speaker 2: written to me recently. It was this, punishing our kids

7
00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:24,360
Speaker 2: makes them more selfish, which is interesting because sometimes we're

8
00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:26,360
Speaker 2: punishing them for being selfish.

9
00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,480
Speaker 1: Well, how does that work? How are we supposed to

10
00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:30,600
Speaker 1: do this parenting gig?

11
00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,720
Speaker 2: I don't know, well, doctor Justin Coulson from happy Families

12
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,560
Speaker 2: dot com do I use loads and loads of resources

13
00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,000
Speaker 2: available to support us parents on that website. I encourage

14
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:41,479
Speaker 2: you to go there. But you're in the room with

15
00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,360
Speaker 2: this now, doctor Justin to talk about this whole idea

16
00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,159
Speaker 2: of punishing our kids making them more selfish?

17
00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, isn't that curious? It really is.

18
00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:51,680
Speaker 4: The kids are fighting with each other, or maybe they've

19
00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,120
Speaker 4: stolen something from the shop down the road.

20
00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:55,120
Speaker 3: You know, when five.

21
00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,600
Speaker 4: Year olds decide that that piece of chocolate looks too

22
00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,720
Speaker 4: good and what do we do as it's the most

23
00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,360
Speaker 4: common form of discipline in Australia. In spite of my

24
00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:05,800
Speaker 4: very best efforts to change this is that we punish

25
00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:06,680
Speaker 4: our kids.

26
00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:08,840
Speaker 3: And I was reading some.

27
00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,560
Speaker 4: Research fairly recently and considering what goes on in the

28
00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:14,880
Speaker 4: mind of a child when they're punished, and it occurred

29
00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:16,959
Speaker 4: to me, the more we punish our kids, the more

30
00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:18,120
Speaker 4: selfish they are.

31
00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:19,440
Speaker 3: I'll give you an example.

32
00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,040
Speaker 4: So I'm a fourteen year old boy, and I grew

33
00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,400
Speaker 4: up in a home. So I mean, I'm fourteen, right,

34
00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,760
Speaker 4: So it's the nineteen eighties, and I've grown up in

35
00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:30,560
Speaker 4: a home where we're not allowed to watch Neighbors or

36
00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:32,240
Speaker 4: Home and Away all the Simpsons because of all the

37
00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:33,200
Speaker 4: bad attitude that's there.

38
00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,880
Speaker 3: You know, we too much sas.

39
00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,240
Speaker 4: And my sister says something that ticks me off, and

40
00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,279
Speaker 4: I look at her and say, Karina, you're.

41
00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:41,200
Speaker 3: Such an idiot.

42
00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,200
Speaker 4: I'm sorry for using that word, but you know, I

43
00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,360
Speaker 4: just I called her an idiot. And my mum comes

44
00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,400
Speaker 4: storming into the kitchen and she said, we don't speak

45
00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:50,320
Speaker 4: like that in this house.

46
00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:52,160
Speaker 3: You need to say sorry.

47
00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,840
Speaker 4: Justin I take a deep breath, I look at my

48
00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,520
Speaker 4: sister and I say, fine, Karina, I'm sorry.

49
00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:03,880
Speaker 3: You're an idiot. And so MoMA, my mum sends me

50
00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,360
Speaker 3: to my room. She says, that's it. Go to your

51
00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,320
Speaker 3: room and you think about what you've done. We don't

52
00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:09,960
Speaker 3: speak like that.

53
00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:11,840
Speaker 4: And so I went to my bedroom and as you

54
00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:13,919
Speaker 4: can imagine, fourteen year old boy sent to his room

55
00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,800
Speaker 4: by his mum. I sit on my bed and I

56
00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,240
Speaker 4: think to myself, you know, Mum's right. I needed this

57
00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:20,880
Speaker 4: time away from my family to.

58
00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:23,400
Speaker 3: To regroup.

59
00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:28,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm an impediment in my family's well being.

60
00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,120
Speaker 3: I'm an impediment to our family's happiness.

61
00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,200
Speaker 4: I've not been a good brother. And because I've had

62
00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,000
Speaker 4: this opportunity to sit in my room, I'm going to

63
00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,000
Speaker 4: be a better human being when I leave.

64
00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:41,399
Speaker 5: Wonderful happens every time, no teenager or no child ever,

65
00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,480
Speaker 5: you know, Supernanny and the whole naughty Corner thing, the

66
00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,600
Speaker 5: stupidest anyway, you.

67
00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:48,959
Speaker 3: Know what I did. I sat in my room and

68
00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,680
Speaker 3: I got selfish. I'd been punished. And who did I

69
00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,000
Speaker 3: think about while I was in my room. I thought

70
00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,919
Speaker 3: about me. I thought about how unfair the world was.

71
00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,960
Speaker 4: I thought about how my mum doesn't understand stand and

72
00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,079
Speaker 4: how upset I was at her. And then I did

73
00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,080
Speaker 4: think about my sister. But I thought about what I

74
00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:06,680
Speaker 4: was going to do to her. When I got out

75
00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:08,840
Speaker 4: of the bedroom and Mum wasn't watching, you know, Mum said,

76
00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:10,800
Speaker 4: don't you ever let me catch me catch you doing

77
00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:12,800
Speaker 4: that again? And I was like, you won't, Mum, don't worry,

78
00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,680
Speaker 4: I'll be much sneaky.

79
00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,000
Speaker 1: That's the thing, isn't it. Because we like I think

80
00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:23,240
Speaker 1: about what we achieve when we punish hard is we

81
00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:25,720
Speaker 1: make sure that they work harder at not getting caught.

82
00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:27,720
Speaker 4: Well, we do that, but what we also do, think

83
00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:32,400
Speaker 4: about the cognitions. When somebody gets you in trouble, you

84
00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,240
Speaker 4: go from being the aggressor or the instigator in a

85
00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,320
Speaker 4: certain situation. I mean, you might have been in the wrong,

86
00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,640
Speaker 4: but now that you're getting in trouble, now that you're being.

87
00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,440
Speaker 3: Punished, you actually become the victim.

88
00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:49,160
Speaker 4: It happens in schools when we punished bullies and we

89
00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,000
Speaker 4: actually make them victims. We punished the kid who did

90
00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,920
Speaker 4: the inappropriate thing, and we make them the victim. It

91
00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,320
Speaker 4: works against what we're trying to achieve. What we want

92
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,000
Speaker 4: to achieve is perspective and empathy. We want to improve

93
00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,000
Speaker 4: them as humans, and all we do is we make

94
00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:09,720
Speaker 4: them self centered, self focused, and feel completely misunderstood and ignored.

95
00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,360
Speaker 1: Now just it's now a good time to pause knowing

96
00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,760
Speaker 1: you and where you come from, because there's people now

97
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,599
Speaker 1: screaming at the radio because they think you're advocating for

98
00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:19,760
Speaker 1: letting them get away with that's.

99
00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:21,160
Speaker 3: Right, we should just let kids do whatever they know.

100
00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:22,080
Speaker 3: That's not what I'm saying.

101
00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,400
Speaker 1: And so it's very specific on the word punish. Yes,

102
00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,919
Speaker 1: is what you're against, But that's not about letting just

103
00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,320
Speaker 1: a child do whatever so that they don't feel bad.

104
00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,200
Speaker 2: So what do we do if punishing is off the table,

105
00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:34,440
Speaker 2: what do we do.

106
00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,039
Speaker 4: We Well, just one more thing before I go to

107
00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,320
Speaker 4: a solution. There's an acronym that I use all the

108
00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,760
Speaker 4: time to emphasize what punishment.

109
00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:42,560
Speaker 3: Does to our kids. We actually get into bed with

110
00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,240
Speaker 3: our kids b ed. We get into bed blame, excuse,

111
00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,880
Speaker 3: and denial. So when we're punishing kids, and you would

112
00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:50,800
Speaker 3: have seen this with your own kids.

113
00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:52,080
Speaker 4: If you're going to get your kids in trouble and

114
00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,920
Speaker 4: punish them, they blame everyone else and they blame you.

115
00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,640
Speaker 4: They make up every excuse in the world, and they

116
00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,359
Speaker 4: deny that there's been a problem in the first place.

117
00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,560
Speaker 4: That's what happens when we use punishment. It just undermines

118
00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:03,200
Speaker 4: the whole thing.

119
00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:03,839
Speaker 1: Now.

120
00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,599
Speaker 4: I know I've said this to you many many times before,

121
00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,680
Speaker 4: but we've got to remember what discipline means.

122
00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,680
Speaker 3: Discipline means to teach, to.

123
00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:15,480
Speaker 1: Teach, to God, to instruct.

124
00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, it's working, fantastic. Discipline means teach God an instruct.

125
00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,520
Speaker 4: It comes from the Latin discipline, which means teach God instruct.

126
00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,800
Speaker 4: If our children do something that is not appropriate, our

127
00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,320
Speaker 4: job is not to get mad at them and hurt them.

128
00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:29,279
Speaker 3: That's what punishment is.

129
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,960
Speaker 4: Our job is to teach them, guide them, and instruct them,

130
00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,960
Speaker 4: which means we need to engage in a conversation with them.

131
00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,320
Speaker 4: We need to engage in perspective taking with them. It's

132
00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:41,960
Speaker 4: not going to work if there's an audience. It's not

133
00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,039
Speaker 4: going to work if they're very emotional, or if we're

134
00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,360
Speaker 4: very emotional. So if there's a drama going on that

135
00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,479
Speaker 4: requires a media intervention, we do need to intervene, and

136
00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,680
Speaker 4: we need to make sure that everybody is safe. Once

137
00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,240
Speaker 4: that's taken care of, we set an appointment with our child.

138
00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,200
Speaker 4: Because we're not quite ready to have a proper conversation

139
00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:00,560
Speaker 4: or they're not, we say we're going to have to

140
00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:02,320
Speaker 4: discuss this a little bit later, when I've calmed down,

141
00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,160
Speaker 4: or when you've calmed down, and we do whatever we

142
00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,599
Speaker 4: need to do to make sure everyone's okay. And then

143
00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,560
Speaker 4: ten minutes later or ten hours later, or even the

144
00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,520
Speaker 4: next day or that night, on the edge of their bed,

145
00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:14,320
Speaker 4: we sit with them and we say we need to

146
00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,039
Speaker 4: talk about what happened. We listen to them, We understand

147
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:19,600
Speaker 4: what was going on, you know, we need to see

148
00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,200
Speaker 4: the full picture. We've had lots of conversations as we've had,

149
00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,159
Speaker 4: you know, these chats where we recognize that as parents

150
00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,400
Speaker 4: we don't see everything that's going on. We need to

151
00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,880
Speaker 4: slow down, understand what's happening in our kids' lives and

152
00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,479
Speaker 4: what was going on for them, and then we need

153
00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,240
Speaker 4: to ask them why they chose to do what they

154
00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,000
Speaker 4: did and what they could have done better next time. Now,

155
00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,760
Speaker 4: this is a far more effective discipline process. It's not

156
00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,200
Speaker 4: quite as exciting. Other people don't get to see us

157
00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,520
Speaker 4: being the parent, you know, because we don't look like

158
00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,080
Speaker 4: we're getting angry at our kids. But our kids learn

159
00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,880
Speaker 4: more more than that. They learn that we are safe,

160
00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,520
Speaker 4: and they learn that we are there to protect their

161
00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,159
Speaker 4: best interests, but also the interests of their siblings, or

162
00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:00,960
Speaker 4: the store owner, the street, or the kid in the

163
00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,159
Speaker 4: school playground. I'm not advocating for no limits. In fact,

164
00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:08,279
Speaker 4: I'm advocating for very clear limits. But we set them

165
00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,720
Speaker 4: with our kids rather than doing things to them.

166
00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:12,640
Speaker 1: One of the things that i've you know, we've been

167
00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:14,720
Speaker 1: dealing with with our boys at the moment is a

168
00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,440
Speaker 1: bit of lying. And a moment I experienced recently was

169
00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:20,520
Speaker 1: that there was no reason for one of our sons

170
00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,320
Speaker 1: to lie like there was no anger. There was nothing.

171
00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,560
Speaker 1: But but I realized the way I asked the question

172
00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,040
Speaker 1: may easily have triggered a I'm going to get into

173
00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,480
Speaker 1: trouble for this response, and so his automatic response was

174
00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,040
Speaker 1: to just cover, to not tell me what was like, No, no, no,

175
00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,360
Speaker 1: you're not You're not in trouble. We're going to talk

176
00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,360
Speaker 1: about the fact that he said a word that we

177
00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:42,239
Speaker 1: never really spent a whole lot of time on saying,

178
00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,640
Speaker 1: don't say that, and so I just wanted to clarify.

179
00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:46,480
Speaker 1: I asked him what he said because I wanted to

180
00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,000
Speaker 1: see if I had heard it right before I went

181
00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,800
Speaker 1: and had this discussion. But he just went straight to

182
00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:53,800
Speaker 1: I need to protect myself. I don't know, I don't

183
00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:55,280
Speaker 1: remember what I said. Oh no, I didn't say that,

184
00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,480
Speaker 1: but it was really highlighted to me how his bad

185
00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,400
Speaker 1: behavior Lane came out of the fact that he thought

186
00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:03,160
Speaker 1: I was out to get.

187
00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,240
Speaker 4: Him right, and he became more selfish in that fear

188
00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:08,560
Speaker 4: that he was going to get punished. When we punish

189
00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,840
Speaker 4: our kids, we make them more selfish. That's really the

190
00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,080
Speaker 4: essence of this. When we sit down and we have

191
00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,680
Speaker 4: these proper conversations with them, when the fear is gone,

192
00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:17,960
Speaker 4: they know they're not going to get quote unquote in trouble.

193
00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,720
Speaker 4: They become more open to learning, They become more open

194
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,200
Speaker 4: to having a good relationship with us, and the discipline

195
00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,440
Speaker 4: actually sinks in. Not just that, but they become more

196
00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,480
Speaker 4: empathic and concerned about the people that we want them

197
00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:32,240
Speaker 4: to be concerned about.

198
00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:34,000
Speaker 3: So good.

199
00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:38,480
Speaker 2: It's a great It's challenging because it's certainly much easier

200
00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,000
Speaker 2: to be reactive as a parent. But I like this

201
00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,760
Speaker 2: idea of actually that teaching, guiding and instructing and developing

202
00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,480
Speaker 2: empathy in our children. Specifically for me as a mum,

203
00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,839
Speaker 2: where Dad is not particularly empathic, I feel a lot of.

204
00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,600
Speaker 3: Responsibility We should have this conversation.

205
00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:57,640
Speaker 1: Words like that.

206
00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,439
Speaker 3: You know again, I want to emphasize this about families

207
00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:01,880
Speaker 3: with boys.

208
00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:02,439
Speaker 5: Particularly.

209
00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,800
Speaker 4: Research tells us that boy's experience to drop in empathy

210
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,960
Speaker 4: around about the time that they go through puberty twelve

211
00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,400
Speaker 4: thirteen or thereabouts, and so it becomes even more important

212
00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:14,200
Speaker 4: that we're having these conversations to draw that empathy back

213
00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,520
Speaker 4: into their lives and help them to take the perspective

214
00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,679
Speaker 4: of others at an age where neurologically and developmentally it's

215
00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:20,720
Speaker 4: harder for them to do it.

216
00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, very good, Doctor Justin Coulson, thanks so much

217
00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,240
Speaker 2: for joining us in the studio and for talking about

218
00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,720
Speaker 2: this big topic about punishing our kids making them.

219
00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:30,880
Speaker 3: More selfish, and we'll have this therapy session short.

220
00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:34,840
Speaker 2: If you enjoy the podcast, please take a moment to

221
00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,640
Speaker 2: rate it on iTunes. When you do that, it increases

222
00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,000
Speaker 2: the visibility of the podcast and helps more people to

223
00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,560
Speaker 2: find it. And if you're not a subscriber, jump onto

224
00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,120
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts and subscribe so that you can hear every

225
00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,320
Speaker 2: episode as soon as it is uploaded. For more information

226
00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,640
Speaker 2: on all of doctor Justin Coulson's books, programs, and podcasts,

227
00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,480
Speaker 2: go to Happy Families dot com dot Au, or if

228
00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,600
Speaker 2: you'd like to have doctor Justin Coulson speak at your

229
00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:04,520
Speaker 2: school or event, go to Justincoulson dot com