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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: answers Now.

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Speaker 3: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson today, a guest on

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Speaker 3: the podcast that I'm so excited to be able to

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Speaker 3: speak with. If I was to put together a list

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Speaker 3: of favorite authors, favorite influencers, people who have done things

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Speaker 3: that are talk worthy, right at the top of the

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Speaker 3: list would be a guy by the name of Daniel Pink.

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Speaker 3: Dan Pink is the author of five New York Times

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Speaker 3: best sellers, including his latest book, The Power of Regret,

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Speaker 3: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward. He also wrote a

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Speaker 3: book that almost everyone in the entire world has read,

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Speaker 3: I'm sure, called Drive. And he had a book just

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Speaker 3: come out in the last year or so as well

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Speaker 3: called When He's Prolific.

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Speaker 1: That's all I can say.

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Speaker 3: He's had a TV show on National Geographic that's been

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Speaker 3: seen in like one hundred countries, writes for all of

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Speaker 3: the big publications in the US and around the world,

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Speaker 3: and has done a whole lot more stuff. And Dan

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Speaker 3: joins me for a conversation about his brand new book,

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Speaker 3: The Power of Regret, How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward. Dan,

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Speaker 3: thanks for being on the Happy Family's podcast. This is

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Speaker 3: an absolute delight.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad to be with you justin thanks for having me, So.

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Speaker 1: Dan, I'm going to show you my phone just here

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Speaker 1: for a sec.

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Speaker 3: It's literally gone blank as I picked it up on

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Speaker 3: the let me find it here. On the twenty fourth

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Speaker 3: of the fourth twenty twenty one, I wrote this little

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Speaker 3: note to myself that I wanted to write a book

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Speaker 3: all about the power of regret. In fact, I've come

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Speaker 3: up with the opener. I wrote, of all the words

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Speaker 3: of tongue and pen the saddestar, what could have been

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Speaker 3: a little couplet. I thought, let's write a book about regrets,

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Speaker 3: the science of regret, examples of people's regret. Should we

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Speaker 3: avoid regret? Or is it our best teacher? I thought,

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Speaker 3: there's something in this. I've got an idea. I reckon

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Speaker 3: it could be a New York Times bestseller. And I

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Speaker 3: regret taking so long to get onto it. But somehow

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Speaker 3: I think that you did a better job than I

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Speaker 3: would have done.

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Speaker 2: You know, I wish you would have done. It would

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Speaker 2: have saved me a lot of grief of writing this.

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Speaker 3: Book, So Dan, so many people say that they don't

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Speaker 3: have regrets. You've touched on that in the book. Why

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Speaker 3: do you think there's saying that that I don't have

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Speaker 3: any regrets and you actually rejected outright, Why do you

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Speaker 3: do that?

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Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about the baseline first, is that everybody

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Speaker 2: has regrets. What we know from sixty years of science

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Speaker 2: in psychology, neuroscience, cognitive science, development of psychology, is that

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Speaker 2: regret is one of the most common emotions that human

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Speaker 2: beings have. It's arguably the most common negative emotion that

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Speaker 2: human beings have. If you don't have regrets, it means

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Speaker 2: you're probably a five year old, or you have some

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Speaker 2: brain disorder or your sociopath But everybody has regrets. So

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Speaker 2: why would people say that right when we know that

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Speaker 2: everybody has regrets? And I think it's a really intriguing

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Speaker 2: question justin I think one of them is I think

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Speaker 2: part of it is is that people think that that

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Speaker 2: is courageous, that that's a sign of courage. I don't

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Speaker 2: have any regrets. You know, I'm bold, I'm courageous, right.

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Speaker 2: I think that's one reason. I think another reason is

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Speaker 2: that people are over indexed on positivity. They think that

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Speaker 2: the way to lead a good life is to have

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Speaker 2: only positive emotions and no negative emotions. And I think

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Speaker 2: another reason is that we don't know what to do

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Speaker 2: with our regrets, so it's much easier to ignore than

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Speaker 2: or bury them. It turns out that we have a

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Speaker 2: half century of science saying that is a colossally bad idea.

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Speaker 2: So what I'm trying to do in part in this

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Speaker 2: book is normalize this emotion of regret because it's normal.

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Speaker 3: There's a parent on page forty four of the book

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Speaker 3: who says one of her great regrets is, and I quote,

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Speaker 3: I yelled at my daughter when she was five on

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Speaker 3: the way to school when she spilled some yogat on

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Speaker 3: her uniform.

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Speaker 1: I really lated to her, and I've regretted it ever since.

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Speaker 1: She didn't deserve that.

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Speaker 3: I upset her so much, and for what a bit

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Speaker 3: of a stain on her uniform. I will never stop

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Speaker 3: regretting that moment. I've never yielded her in that way again.

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Speaker 3: So I learned from that mistake, but I wish I

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Speaker 3: could take that moment back.

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Speaker 1: Now. I read that and I thought two things.

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Speaker 3: Number one, I relate, But number two, if that's the

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Speaker 3: worst thing she's ever done, she must be a pretty

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Speaker 3: good mum.

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Speaker 2: It's an interesting thing about what people regret. Obviously this

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Speaker 2: and I think that tells us something. Okay, so let's

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Speaker 2: let's let's probe that just a little bit. Think about

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Speaker 2: that mom or think about any parent, all right, Think

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Speaker 2: about all the decisions that you make as a parent.

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Speaker 2: Think about all the decisions you made as a parent

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Speaker 2: yesterday or last week or last year. Think about all

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Speaker 2: the actions you took as a parent yesterday or last

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Speaker 2: week or last year. Most of them you me, I

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Speaker 2: don't even remember. Okay. So if you have an action

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Speaker 2: or a decision or somebody that happens to you and

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Speaker 2: not only do you remember it, which itself is amazing,

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Speaker 2: but you remember it and it makes you feel bad,

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Speaker 2: that's a very very very very strong signal. And so

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Speaker 2: my guess with this person, and what is it the

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Speaker 2: signal of? It's a signal of And this is the

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Speaker 2: thing about regret. Regret clarifies what we value and instructs

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Speaker 2: us on how to do better. Now, it sounds I

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Speaker 2: did not interview that person. That was an anonymous entry

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Speaker 2: and among the regrets that I collected, But my guess

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Speaker 2: is that that person has actually used that as instruction

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Speaker 2: for the future. But I think the other thing about

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Speaker 2: it is that it probably raised the question of what

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Speaker 2: she values. And I think what she values this kindness,

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Speaker 2: not only towards her children, but toward toward other people.

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Speaker 2: And so in that sense, this negative feeling is actually

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Speaker 2: incredibly helpful because in this case, it's a message to

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Speaker 2: this parent saying, you know what, I actually value kindness

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Speaker 2: more than I expect, and I've been falling down on that.

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Speaker 2: I need to be kinder more broadly. Second, it's offering

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Speaker 2: her instruction about how to deal with her kids. Now

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Speaker 2: what she could have said, no regrets, I yell up

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Speaker 2: my kid who cares? All Right, that's not a good idea.

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Speaker 2: That's not a good idea because you don't learn of

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Speaker 2: anything from that. And so now I'll tell you it's

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Speaker 2: also a bad idea. I yellt up my kid. Oh

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Speaker 2: my god, I am the worst parent there ever was.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to wallow in that regret. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: rum it. That's a bad idea too. What we want

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Speaker 2: to do is we want to use those regrets as

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Speaker 2: a signal, as information, as data, enlist them, draw lessons

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Speaker 2: from them, and use those lessons to move forward.

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Speaker 3: I want to talk about that as less since in

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Speaker 3: just to say, but first a little bit of autobiography,

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Speaker 3: if I can. My career is built on regret. Uh

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Speaker 3: early literally early mistakes that I made as a father.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't be more grateful for my regrets, couldn't be

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Speaker 3: more grateful for them. And and in the power of

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Speaker 3: regret in your book, you talk a lot about how

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Speaker 3: we can reframe regret. We can look at what that

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Speaker 3: mom did and how she, instead of beating herself up,

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Speaker 3: can say this is a learning opportunity.

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Speaker 1: How does this reframing work?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean what we I mean, what we want

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Speaker 2: to do, as I said before, is find the third

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Speaker 2: way again, don't ignore, don't willow and confront. Now, how

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Speaker 2: do we do that? To me? There's a there's a

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Speaker 2: there's a there's a process that we should go through.

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Speaker 2: It's it's relatively simple, isn't no one and it's rooted

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Speaker 2: in science. Is that no one ever talks about it,

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Speaker 2: no one ever, no one ever taught us how to

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Speaker 2: do it. So the first step, if we can think

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Speaker 2: of it as three stages inward outward forward, inward, outward forward,

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Speaker 2: So inward is your first step is how do you

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Speaker 2: reframe how you think of yourself and and think of

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Speaker 2: the regret. And one of the things that we see

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Speaker 2: is that when we screw up as parents or as

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Speaker 2: people or people who are parents, the way we talk

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Speaker 2: to ourselves is brutal.

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Speaker 1: It's cruel.

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Speaker 2: Our self talk is often lacerating. That's a bad idea.

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Speaker 2: There's no evidence that's effective. What we should be doing

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Speaker 2: in the face of these mistakes is treating ourselves with

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Speaker 2: kindness rather than contempt. Recognizing that our mistakes are part

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Speaker 2: of the human condition. That itself is really important. I've

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Speaker 2: collected regrets from all over the world. Any regret that

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Speaker 2: any parent out that there has, I got it in

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Speaker 2: my database. I mean, you know, our regrets are part

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Speaker 2: of the human condition. The other thing that I think

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Speaker 2: is important for parents is that when you screw up,

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Speaker 2: when you make a mistake, that's a moment in your life.

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Speaker 2: It's not the full measure of your life. That's a

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Speaker 2: moment in your parenting history. It's not the full definition

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Speaker 2: of your parenting history. And so when we do that,

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Speaker 2: that inward look frees us up to do the more

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Speaker 2: cognitive work of making sense of our regret and drawing

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Speaker 2: lessons from it.

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Speaker 3: In the book you talk about at leasting, and if

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Speaker 3: only can you maybe step through those strategies. I feel

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Speaker 3: like they're just so immensely perfectly practical for what a

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Speaker 3: parent can do when they blow it, when they lose

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Speaker 3: it with their kids, or when they're impatient or completely

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Speaker 3: fail to show up.

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Speaker 2: So regret is driven powered by something called counterfactual thinking,

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Speaker 2: that our brains can't imagine events that run counter to

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Speaker 2: the actual facts. And there are two types of counterfactual thinking.

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Speaker 2: There is what psychologists call upward counterfactuals, where you imagine

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Speaker 2: how things could have been better. If only I had

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Speaker 2: married Edward instead of Frank, my life would be better, right,

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Speaker 2: so you imagine not things could be better upward counterfactual.

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Speaker 2: They're also something known as a downward counterfactual, where you

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Speaker 2: imagine how things could have turned out worse, where you say,

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Speaker 2: I regret marrying Edward, but at least I have these

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Speaker 2: two great kids. Okay, so you find the silver line again,

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Speaker 2: And then here's what we know upward counterfactuals. If only

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Speaker 2: regret is the poster child of upward counterfactor rules. If

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Speaker 2: only make us feel worse, but help us do better

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Speaker 2: at least, don't help us do better, but they help

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Speaker 2: us feel better, and sometimes that's okay. And so there

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Speaker 2: are times where you actually want to do it, at

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Speaker 2: least with a regret, just to make yourself feel better

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Speaker 2: and move on. So you could say something like the

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Speaker 2: mommy you were talking about before, I regret yelling at

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Speaker 2: my kid for spilling yogurt on her uniform. But at

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Speaker 2: least I didn't do that a second time. At least

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Speaker 2: I didn't escalate it. At least I apologized, And that

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Speaker 2: can actually mitigate some of the psychological sting.

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Speaker 3: Dan, if you would give timepol parents who feel I've

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Speaker 3: bewhelmed any advice at all, would what would it be?

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Speaker 3: I mean, the role of parenting is it's like Sissyphus

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Speaker 3: and the style right. Every single day we've got to

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Speaker 3: get up and we've got to do it again so much,

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Speaker 3: so much.

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Speaker 1: Of parenting is correction and direction.

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Speaker 3: This so little time for connection, and we get it

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Speaker 3: wrong because we're so busy intensifying our parenting efforts.

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Speaker 1: When you think about all the things.

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Speaker 3: That you read and you'll regret survey, when you think

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Speaker 3: about all the things that like the real message of

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Speaker 3: the power of regret, and you'll fly it to what

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Speaker 3: it feels like to be a parent. I mean, you've

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Speaker 3: got kids yourself, how do you how do you take

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Speaker 3: that Internet into something that's really useful as parents are

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Speaker 3: struggling with the every day of parenting.

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Speaker 2: There are a whole bunch of things justin the people

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Speaker 2: can do here. So let me offer a few sort

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Speaker 2: of practical tips. One of them is that it's very

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Speaker 2: important that we normalize as emotion of regret one of

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Speaker 2: the things that we see, especially with adolescents. And you

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Speaker 2: know this is especially here in the States. I think

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Speaker 2: maybe less so, but still in Australia. Is some serious

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Speaker 2: mental health challenges among young people and teenagers around the world,

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Speaker 2: and I think part of that is that we haven't

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Speaker 2: equipped them well enough to deal with negative emotions. So

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Speaker 2: when they feel a negative emotion, because we haven't equipped them,

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Speaker 2: they look around and say, oh my god, it's like

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Speaker 2: I'm feeling bad right now. I'm feeling crappy right now,

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Speaker 2: but everybody else is so perfect. Wow, there must be

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Speaker 2: something wrong with me, and so what we should do.

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Speaker 2: So here's one parenting tip, and I think it's extremely

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Speaker 2: useful as this talk to your kids about a regret

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Speaker 2: that you have. Tell your kids about a regret that

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Speaker 2: you have, but don't stop there. Tell them what you

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Speaker 2: learn from it, and tell them what you're gonna do

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Speaker 2: about it. And I think that that will trigger, especially

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Speaker 2: for teenagers, a very very powerful and enlightening conversation. So

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Speaker 2: that's one thing I think that parents can do. Another

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Speaker 2: thing that parents can do is think about as they

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Speaker 2: anticipate their regrets. To anticipate their regrets, we know from

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Speaker 2: I did a massive collection of regrets from around the

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Speaker 2: world and found that around the world people seem to

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Speaker 2: have the same four core regrets. So would you anticipate

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Speaker 2: your regrets as a parent? I would really steer them

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Speaker 2: around doing good enough on most things, but actually making

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Speaker 2: sure you avoid these four core regrets was one of them. Is,

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Speaker 2: you know, the regret about not providing stability, huge, huge

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Speaker 2: parental regret, what I call a foundation regret. The regret

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Speaker 2: about not taking a sensible risk, taking an adventure with

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Speaker 2: your family, big regret that parents have. I regret about

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Speaker 2: doing the wrong thing, as we saw with the mom

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Speaker 2: who yet at her kid, and also regrets about reaching out.

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Speaker 2: So if you say, you know what, my kid and

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Speaker 2: it's not going to matter whether we bought strawberry yogurt

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Speaker 2: today or cherry yogurt today, it's not going to matter

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Speaker 2: what Ultimately, you know, if I have a healthy lunch,

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Speaker 2: what my kid is eating for lunch today. Like, there's

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Speaker 2: so many decisions parents make, and most of them you

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Speaker 2: won't remember, but there's some incredibly significant ones that matter

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Speaker 2: a lot. So when you try to anticipate your regrets

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Speaker 2: as a parent, anticipate regrets you might have about not

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Speaker 2: providing stability, regrets you might have about not providing your

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Speaker 2: family opportunities to learn and grow, regrets you might have

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Speaker 2: about taking the low road or not doing the right thing,

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Speaker 2: being immoral, and then regrets that you might have about

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Speaker 2: not reaching out to your kids, but also to everybody

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Speaker 2: else in life.

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Speaker 1: Dan, I love this. You've actually inspired me.

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Speaker 3: I've been having a conversation with my wife Kylie over

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Speaker 3: the last couple of weeks. She wants to have more holidays,

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Speaker 3: she wants to take more vacations, more time away with

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Speaker 3: the family. Because I'm the dad and I'm always worried

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Speaker 3: about how much money we've got and whether we can

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Speaker 3: afford this or we can afford that. I've been sort

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Speaker 3: of thinking my heels are saying, let's just have a staycation.

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Speaker 3: We'll stay home, we'll just visit the beach nearby. It'll

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Speaker 3: be fine. I can't believe I'm sharing this with you,

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Speaker 3: but I regret the conversation I had with my wife

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Speaker 3: the other day, and I feel like I need to

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Speaker 3: go to her and say I'm sorry. We actually we

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Speaker 3: do need to put ourselves into more debt so that

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Speaker 3: we can have that holiday, because I think the kids

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Speaker 3: aren't going to care about the size of the credit

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Speaker 3: card dead as much as they're going to enjoy that

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Speaker 3: opportunity to be away with the family and have that experience.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, that's a tricky one. That's a tricky

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Speaker 2: one because it's in some ways the particular situation that

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Speaker 2: you're describing as sort of a balance between stability and

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Speaker 2: stability and boldness. I don't want to take that lately,

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Speaker 2: what you do have. It's interesting. It's funny you say that.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting to say that I just got an e

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Speaker 2: mail from a reader. This reader is in the US

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Speaker 2: city of Kansas City. I mean literally, like, well, no,

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Speaker 2: not not today, but yesterday. Who said My bigger regret

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Speaker 2: is that no joke about this My bigger regret is

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Speaker 2: that I didn't spend enough money when I when my

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Speaker 2: family was younger, I was too nervous that we were

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Speaker 2: going to go into the poorhouse if we did anything.

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Speaker 2: And now I am. I can't remember his age, but

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Speaker 2: he was, you know, in his sixties, and he actually

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Speaker 2: tragically lost to one of his kids. Now I would

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Speaker 2: do anything to go back in time and do something

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Speaker 2: because I realized that now I have the money, but

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Speaker 2: I don't have any memory. I don't have these memories.

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Speaker 1: Just go to text her to dance.

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Speaker 3: I can renovate the house, or I can go on

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Speaker 3: a holiday, and I think that the kids's gonna.

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Speaker 1: Be gonna be much more.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna tell you which one. Yeah, that's a tough

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Speaker 2: one because you're directly pairing those two things against each other.

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Speaker 2: That said, one of the things that you see, it's funny.

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Speaker 2: Let's leave the world of science for a second and

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Speaker 2: just I can talk about my own experience. I remember

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Speaker 2: when I have three kids. They're now between the ages

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Speaker 2: of nineteen and twenty five, twenty six.

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Speaker 1: Now it keeps changing. Why do they do that?

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Speaker 2: I know, it's amazing. Every year it seems like it's

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Speaker 2: a different number. One of the things that an old

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Speaker 2: boss of mine told me when I first had kids

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Speaker 2: was pay attention. It's going to go really fast. And

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Speaker 2: I'm like, all right, old man, And then I realized, like, god, dang,

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Speaker 2: he was right. I mean, and so is it going

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Speaker 2: to matter all that much if you pay off your mortgage,

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Speaker 2: you know, this year or two years from now, But

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Speaker 2: your kids are only going to be nine and eleven once.

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Speaker 2: So again, I don't want to be I don't want

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Speaker 2: to take this. I don't want to take those kinds

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Speaker 2: of situations that parents have lightly at all. But these

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Speaker 2: are worthy things to think about. And I think more

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Speaker 2: broadly is that if you make these kinds of decisions

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Speaker 2: and it's a mistake, talk to your kids about it.

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Speaker 2: Here's the thing. I mean, you know this from your

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Speaker 2: research and from your own lived experience. I think one

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Speaker 2: thing that parents don't realize is that their kids listen

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Speaker 2: to them way less than they think, and they watched

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Speaker 2: them way more than that they think. All right, That

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Speaker 2: to me is like a central fact of parenthood. And

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Speaker 2: so if you demonstrate these behaviors of normalizing regret, if

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Speaker 2: you show, hey, I'd made this mistake when I was younger,

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Speaker 2: it hurt. I didn't enjoy it, but I learned this

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Speaker 2: lesson and now I'm doing this instead your kids and

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Speaker 2: you show them what you're doing, your kids are going

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Speaker 2: to pay attention to that. Your kids are going to

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Speaker 2: pay attention to that far more than if you wag

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Speaker 2: your finger at them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this has been the best part of the interview.

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Speaker 3: I'm so grateful for what you just sh it. I

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Speaker 3: feel like we just had a little therapy session, Dan.

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Speaker 1: That was beautiful.

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Speaker 3: And I know that we barely know each other and

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Speaker 3: we're talking in a public sphere here with a podcast.

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Speaker 3: But when you reflect on your life, and I'm sure

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Speaker 3: you've been asked this question many times because of the

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Speaker 3: book you've written, Dan, but what stands out to you

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Speaker 3: is seeing dificant regret. Is there anything that sort of

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Speaker 3: that that you're comfortable is closing where you just think, ah, gee,

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Speaker 3: I shouldn't have I shouldn't have said, Yes, I shouldn't

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Speaker 3: have done that thing.

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Speaker 1: What do you do?

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Speaker 2: I have a lot of regrets. I have a lot

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Speaker 2: of regrets. I have many many regrets. Now you know,

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Speaker 2: I have learned over the years and through this research

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Speaker 2: not to let them debilitate me, and and they don't.

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Speaker 2: But but I still have regrets. I'll give you one example.

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Speaker 2: I have a lot of regrets about kindness from when

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Speaker 2: I was younger. And what's interesting is that in all

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Speaker 2: these regrets that I've collected for this book, there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of regrets about bullying, Okay, from younger. I

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Speaker 2: was amazed at how many regrets all over the world

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Speaker 2: where people regret having bullied somebody. They didn't, they don't

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Speaker 2: regret being on the receiving end of the bullying, the

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Speaker 2: people regretting being the bully. Now, fortunately for my psychological health,

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Speaker 2: I was never a bully. But when I was younger,

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Speaker 2: as a teenager, as a university student, even as a

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Speaker 2: young professional, there were instances where I saw people not

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Speaker 2: being treated by well, people being excluded, people not being

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Speaker 2: treated fairly. I saw it, I knew it was wrong,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't say a word. And that has bugged

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Speaker 2: me for decades now, same kind of thing, it's the

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Speaker 2: same kind of thing. What that's a very normal experience

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Speaker 2: that what's the key here is what do I do

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Speaker 2: with that emotion? What do I do with that stomach

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Speaker 2: churning feeling that I'm describing I can't ignore it. I

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Speaker 2: can say no regrets. I'm positive all the time. I

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Speaker 2: never look backward. What's past. This past bad idea. I

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Speaker 2: can also say, oh my god, I am the worst,

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Speaker 2: most wretched, vicious human being that has ever walked the

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Speaker 2: face of earth. I am terrible. That's a bad idea too.

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Speaker 2: What I should be doing is saying, wow, I feel crappy.

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Speaker 2: This makes me feel bad. That's a signal. What's it

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Speaker 2: telling me? And in the in similar to the case

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Speaker 2: with the yogurt mom, what it's telling me and it

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Speaker 2: has helped me is like I actually value kindness more

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Speaker 2: than I might consciously realize. And it also instructs me

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Speaker 2: to to be more inclusive, to stand up when someone's

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Speaker 2: being mistreated, to bring people, to bring people in. And

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Speaker 2: I've really tried that. Now. Had I not reckon with that,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if I would have done that, I

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Speaker 2: you know, I either would have felt really I would

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Speaker 2: have increasingly felt worse, or I would have not learned

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Speaker 2: that lesson. But by dealing with their regrets, we can

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Speaker 2: we can learn things and you and enlist them to

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Speaker 2: be better parents, better employees, better human beings. You know

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Speaker 2: it reminds me a little bit of your first question,

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Speaker 2: which is that when people profess that they have no regrets,

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Speaker 2: I think that part of it is that it is

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Speaker 2: a form of performed courage. They think this is what

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Speaker 2: it means to be a courageous person. But that's that courage.

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Speaker 2: Courage is looking your regrets in the eye and doing

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Speaker 2: something about them. And so you know, and I think

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Speaker 2: that parents who demonstrate courage are good parents. Parents who

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Speaker 2: damonst read courage are teaching their kids valuable, valuable lessons.

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Speaker 1: Dan, this has been just it's been a highlight.

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Speaker 3: What a great conversation. Thank you so much for your

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Speaker 3: generosity in sharing what you have.

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Speaker 1: The book is called The Power of Regret.

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Speaker 3: For people who want more information about Dan Pink and

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00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:20,520
Speaker 3: everything that you.

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Speaker 1: Do, where can they go? What can they do?

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Speaker 2: Good to Danpink dot com, d A N p I

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Speaker 2: MK dot com. We've got a free newsletter, all kinds

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Speaker 2: of videos and all kinds.

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Speaker 1: Of great stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I love it. I received the newsletter as regularly

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Speaker 3: as it comes out. I don't know how often it

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Speaker 3: pops up in my inbox, but I love receiving it. Dan,

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Speaker 3: thanks so much for being on a Happy Family's Podcast.

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Speaker 3: It's been a real delight to be with.

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Speaker 2: You, a pleasure. Thanks for having me, Justin.

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Speaker 1: That was Daniel Pink.

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Speaker 3: You can find out all about Dan Pink by going

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Speaker 3: to his website, and we'll also link to that and

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Speaker 3: his books in the show notes. Ah Man, I've got

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Speaker 3: to say just before we wrap up the podcast. I've

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Speaker 3: interviewed a whole lot of people for this podcast in

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Speaker 3: a whole range of different ways, but talking to Dan

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Speaker 3: Pink is one of the highlights of my life and

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Speaker 3: of the podcast. What an absolute on an absolute superstar.

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Speaker 3: So glad that he was able to join me on

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Speaker 3: the podcast a real thrill. I hope you enjoyed that

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Speaker 3: as much as I did. All the details are in

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Speaker 3: the show notes. As I've mentioned already, I'm sort of gushing,

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Speaker 3: ared I. The Happy Family's Podcast is produced by Justin

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Speaker 3: Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer.

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Speaker 3: If you'd like more information about making your family Happy It,

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Speaker 3: please visit us at Happy families dot com.

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Speaker 2: Do you