1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: What would you be doing right now if you couldn't 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: listen to this podcast, if you didn't have your phone 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: or computer at hand, how would you entertain yourself right now? 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: Would you be reading a book instead, or maybe staring 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: out the window daydreaming. It's almost unthinkable today to sit 6 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: through a long commute in total silence, or to work 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: out without your favorite music or podcast in your ears. 8 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: But comedian and co host of The Imperfects Ryan Shelton 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: decided the benefits of having a smartphone in his pocket 10 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: at all times wasn't worth the trade offs. So how 11 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: did he do what so many of us can't imagine? 12 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: And what did he learn along the way. My name 13 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist and founder 14 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: of Behavior chain consultancy Inventium, and this is how I 15 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: work the show about how to help you get so 16 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: much more out of the hours in your day. For 17 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: the next few weeks, I am deep diving into my 18 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: guests habits and rituals around health. We will be covering 19 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: physical health, mental health, and emotional health. And in case 20 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: you didn't know, my new book, The Health Habit has 21 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: just hit bookshelves in Australia. If you are stuck in 22 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: a cycle of unhealthy habits, then the health Habit will 23 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: help you design a personalized, science backed plan to change 24 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,559 Speaker 1: your habits for good. Now onto my chat with Ryan, 25 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: which starts with him describing what first led to him 26 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: re examining the relationship he had with his mobile phone. 27 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 2: It was really just the feeling that I'm sure everyone 28 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: gets at one time or another where I feel like 29 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,559 Speaker 2: the phone was using me as opposed to me using 30 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 2: the phone. And I'm lucky in the sense that I 31 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 2: don't have a job where I really rely. 32 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 3: On my phone. 33 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 2: So when I talk about this, I'm conscious of the 34 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 2: fact that there are a lot of people who have 35 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 2: jobs and they need to have their email on them 36 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 2: all the time, and they need to be in contact 37 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 2: with people, or if it's for family reasons or for 38 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 2: whatever it is. In my situation, I realized that I 39 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 2: didn't actually need a lot of the things that were 40 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 2: on my smartphone, and so for years I wanted to 41 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 2: switch to a flip phone to just try and disconnect, 42 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 2: and I was sick of scrolling. I was learning so 43 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 2: much through the podcast that we do learning, and from 44 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 2: everything I was reading, I was learning so much about 45 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 2: the damage that screens and scrolling and social media was 46 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 2: doing to me and how it was ruining my taking 47 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 2: me out of the present moment. And where it really 48 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 2: came to a head was I was in Europe, and 49 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 2: I just like, we've all done this, and it doesn't 50 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 2: have to be in Europe to do this. But I 51 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 2: was in Europe on a beach and I, for no 52 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 2: reason picked up my phone and I just got sucked 53 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 2: into looking at Instagram and then I literally looked up 54 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 2: ten centimeters and there's the most beautiful beach in the world, 55 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 2: and like, what the fuck am I doing? This is insane? 56 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: And that was a bit of a not like urgent 57 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 2: wake up call, but it was a wake up call 58 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 2: enough for me to go, Okay, let's properly figure out 59 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 2: how I'm going to do this. So what I did 60 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 2: was I got a phone, a flip phone by an 61 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 2: Australian company called Opal. Actually I started with a Nokia, 62 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: but I'll jumped to the bit that actually worked better 63 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 2: for me. Got this phone called an Opal flip phone. 64 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: This company makes phones for children and for senior citizens. 65 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: So you're right in the demographic. 66 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 3: An old child is exactly what I am. 67 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 2: And so the good thing about this particular phone was 68 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: that it had maps, it had WhatsApp, and it had 69 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 2: messages obviously and phones. So I was like, oh, well, 70 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 2: I've got WhatsApp's good. I need WhatsApp because I've got 71 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 2: lots of groups of people. I don't want to lose 72 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 2: contact with people. I still want to be connected to people, 73 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 2: but I don't want to have the temptation of social 74 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: media and the Internet and everything in my pocket at 75 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 2: all times. And then I also then got an iPad Mini, 76 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 2: so the iPad Mini, which, as I learned from this 77 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 2: guy on the internet, that was like, it's an easier 78 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: thing to carry around if I also, if I know 79 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: that I'm going to need a ticket, like a ticket 80 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 2: for a concert, or if I need I know I'll 81 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 2: need emails somewhere or whatever, I just take that put 82 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 2: it in my bag. And even though it's in my 83 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: bag and I've got it, it's not my habitual motion 84 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: of putting my hand into my pocket pulling. 85 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,559 Speaker 3: Out my phone. That is gone. 86 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,239 Speaker 2: I have to actually go into my bag and it's 87 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 2: a harder, it's increasing the barrier essentially. So I did 88 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 2: that for a while and it worked. It was incredible. 89 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 2: So what I found was that when I would walk 90 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 2: with just my flip phone and I had no entertainment 91 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 2: with me. It's probably the second day I was doing it, 92 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 2: and I was walking to meet a friend of mine 93 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,799 Speaker 2: called Rick for dinner, and the walk was about forty 94 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 2: five minutes. And usually if I would walk forty five 95 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: minutes to meet someone for dinner, I would do a podcast, 96 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 2: listen to a podcast, maybe music something, because I wouldn't 97 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 2: walk in silence because. 98 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 3: That's psychotic, right. 99 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 2: I wouldn't like entertain myself with the world that would 100 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 2: be mad. 101 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 3: So you find a podcast and you just like get entertained. 102 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 2: It's great. I love podcasts, obviously I have one. But 103 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 2: because I didn't have podcasts on my phone, I was 104 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 2: forced to just walk in silence, and I got bored 105 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 2: very quickly. So I would call someone, and I. 106 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 3: Would call like. 107 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: I would call friends, or I would message back someone 108 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 2: or whatever it might be. But at least I was 109 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 2: talking to people. But then majority of the walk I 110 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 2: was just walking in silence. And the more I just 111 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 2: walked in silence, yes, I was bored, but I was 112 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 2: so excited to get to dinner. To see Rick, because 113 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, something to do that will be great, 114 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 2: you know, actually some stimulation. And that was like a 115 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 2: bit of a light bulb moment because I realized, oh, 116 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: this is good. I'm more appreciative of Rick now because 117 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to it. It's like a reward for 118 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,239 Speaker 2: getting through the stillness to actually get to a place 119 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: of And then the more I learned about it and 120 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 2: read about it, I learned, you know how good stillness 121 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 2: is for the brain. You know, we all know this intellectually, 122 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 2: but it's very hard to do. So I sort of 123 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 2: realized that, oh, my new entertainment is people Like people 124 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 2: are my entertainment now, whether I'm calling someone on the 125 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 2: phone or I'm messaging them or I'm seeing them in 126 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 2: person and being present with them. That is replacing podcasts 127 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 2: and music and YouTube and whatever I was getting sucked into. 128 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 2: So anyway, I started doing I was doing this, and 129 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: I was doing it more and more and more, and 130 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 2: I was really loving it. I called the phone my 131 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 2: smug phone because I felt extremely smug while the people 132 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,679 Speaker 2: were on their smartphones and I was just sitting quietly 133 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 2: by myself in silence, like a smug dickhead. But I 134 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: was noticing the effects, Like there was so many benefits 135 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 2: of doing this. It's hard to know if it was 136 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,119 Speaker 2: just the phone, because I was also doing other things, 137 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 2: so it wasn't like a pure experiment. But the thing 138 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 2: I noticed more than anything is my clarity of thought 139 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 2: in that time, For the two hundred and something days 140 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: I did this, I felt you know that that movie 141 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 2: with Bradley Cooper where he like takes some drug and 142 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: he's like, all of a sudden uses one hundred percent. 143 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 3: Of his brain or something. Yes, it was that. 144 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 2: It felt like I was using as like parts of 145 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 2: my brain were like switching on, and I just felt 146 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 2: so clear, like clear minded. I was having so many 147 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 2: good ideas. It was incredible. It was incredible, And the 148 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 2: feeling from it was was I felt calmer, I felt karma. 149 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. 150 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: So given that, why after two hundred and something days 151 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: did you go back to your iPhone? 152 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: Because the most annoying part of well, really the only 153 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: annoying part of the flip phone experience is messaging people. 154 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 2: You're out of the if you're an Apple user, you're 155 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 2: out of the blue bubble. You know you're you're you're 156 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 2: coming up as grain bubbles, you can't be in I 157 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 2: message groups, but also just physically typing on those phones 158 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 2: is it's like predictive text like it's it's really cumbersome, 159 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 2: really annoying to the extent where I found myself not 160 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 2: writing back to people as my which as I would, 161 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 2: because I couldn't be bothered doing the messaging. So eventually 162 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: that just became too annoying. I found myself being more 163 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 2: disconnected from a lot of people because of that, and 164 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 2: I thought, Okay, I'm going to try and go back 165 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 2: to the iPhone, but with a whole new set of rules, 166 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: sort of trying to emulate the smug phone experience on 167 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 2: the iPhone. So I essentially restored my iPhone back to 168 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: factory resets, like you know, back to its bare bones. 169 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: I deleted all the apps that I could that Apple 170 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 2: allows you to delete, and then I only put the 171 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 2: apps on like the filtration system. For the criteria for 172 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 2: apps to get back on the phone was very strict. 173 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 2: It had to be things that would that were like 174 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 2: they were like tools. So no entertainment on the phone zero. 175 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 2: So now on my phone, I have an iPhone and 176 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: the only things on here now are like. 177 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 3: My calendar, maps, weather. 178 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 2: Tasks, obviously, WhatsApp, messages, phone Uber That's pretty much it. 179 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 3: And then I'm. 180 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 2: Peloton because I have to have that for my Apple 181 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 2: Watch to connect to the Peloton through the phone. That's 182 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 2: slightly annoying, but yeah, I never look at it, but that, yeah, 183 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 2: that other and then there's just like photos and camera 184 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 2: and the normal Apple apps. But that's all I've got, 185 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,199 Speaker 2: And so it means that, I mean, I still habitually 186 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 2: check my phone when I don't need to because I'm 187 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 2: still getting. 188 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 3: Messages and all that sort of stuff. 189 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 2: But I'm not stuck on my phone anymore because there's 190 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 2: really not that much to do on there. Now. 191 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: I'm curious as to how you how you kind of 192 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: capture and organize your thoughts. I know that you're a 193 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: massive productivity apps nerd like me, and I'd love to 194 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: delve into what is your system for organizing these thoughts 195 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: that obviously you have so much time for these thoughts 196 00:10:58,360 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: to come out now as well. 197 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 2: Currently, what I do is I use a my task 198 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 2: app is called to doist, and to Doist has a 199 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 2: widget on the iPhone that means on the lock screen 200 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 2: there's like a little ad thing and so if I 201 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 2: have I have any thought idea, someone tells me about 202 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 2: a movie or a book, or I was talking to 203 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 2: you before about you know, keynote speaking, if you give 204 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 2: me some advice, I'm like, okay, I just put it 205 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,559 Speaker 2: in there. It means that I can put that into 206 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: my task AAP. It sits in the inbox, and then 207 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 2: whenever I have time at home or whatever, I go 208 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 2: through the inbox and then I sort the things into 209 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 2: the correct buckets. But it just means that when I 210 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 2: have the thought, I don't have to go into my 211 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 2: phone and find new ad new task and stuff. I 212 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 2: can just do it quickly without getting stuck into my phone. 213 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 2: So once it's in the inbox, then I have I 214 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 2: use Notion and I use Obsidian, which kind of seems 215 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 2: counter intuitive a little bit because they're kind of similar 216 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 2: bit different. But I'm only new to Obsidian, so I'm 217 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 2: still I can't see myself replacing Notion with Obsidian. It 218 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 2: seems too maniacal to me. But I love Obsidian for 219 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 2: storing all my ideas, So I use Obsidian to store 220 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 2: every idea I have, every idea, even like last night. 221 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: This is gonna be embarrassing. But last night I said, 222 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 2: this thought has popped on my head. These are the 223 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: thoughts that pop int your head when you're not listening 224 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,599 Speaker 2: to anything. I said to jam, I was like, I 225 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 2: wonder if anyone's ever done like a video on YouTube 226 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 2: where and then they might have done this, haven't checked 227 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 2: YouTube video on YouTube where they've taken scenes from Indiana 228 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 2: Jones and put sound effects of him farting in serious 229 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 2: scenes and called it Windiana Jones. So like, I'll probably 230 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 2: never do that, but that goes in obsidian. Like I like, 231 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 2: I just love the idea of my legacy to be 232 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 2: like thousands of ideas and that someone will one day 233 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 2: just discover them and go like, oh, look at all 234 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 2: these ideas, and then someone can make the Windyanna Jones video. 235 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 2: So yeah, So ideas and then also advice like quotes 236 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 2: or things about life, like notes about life, whether it 237 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 2: be things from books or things I hear on a 238 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 2: podcast that would be helpful in some way. It all 239 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 2: goes into obsidian and people people notes ideas or going 240 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 2: to obsidian. 241 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: What do you mean people go into obsidian? 242 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 2: So like if if I it's either people I know 243 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 2: or people who are written the authors of a book 244 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 2: or whatever. So then so like Rick Rubin will have 245 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 2: his own Obsidian note. And then anytime, because you can 246 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 2: link notes in Obsidian, anytime I write a note that 247 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 2: involves rec Rubin, it links back to him. It's just 248 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 2: a fun way to connect them all really. Or if 249 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 2: it's like someone I know, they'll if they if I 250 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 2: have happened to make a page for them. And then 251 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 2: and they've got kids, maybe I'll write their kids' names 252 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 2: in there or something like that, just to remember there 253 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 2: as a resource. So that's Obsidian. And then the Notion 254 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 2: I use for like longer form writing. 255 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: Do you have a specific filing system in Obsidian in 256 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: terms of when like for the different ideas, different categories people. 257 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: How does that work? 258 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 2: No? But I do in in recently in notion and 259 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: in to doist in and in a finder as well. 260 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 2: Now I've moved to you know what's his name? Yeah, 261 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 2: I go, I've moved to power. 262 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: So can you explain para for people that are not 263 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: not familiar with that acronym? 264 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 2: So I've never had to do this before, but I'll try. 265 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 2: It's really really good and simple. But I think because 266 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: the way we've learned how to file files or to 267 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: organize files in the past from when we've grown up 268 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 2: with computers is you have your fall, which is like work, personal, health, exercise. 269 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 2: You know, the huge categories, and then if you ever 270 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 2: want to find something, you have to go like six 271 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 2: levels through folders to find the thing, even if it's 272 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 2: the current thing you're working on right now. Of course 273 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: you can favorite them in some apps and you can 274 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 2: have them. But what power does is power is an 275 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 2: acronym for projects areas resources, archive, and so the idea 276 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: is that anything you're working on right now, anything that 277 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 2: is currently in your world, is a project. So it 278 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 2: might be painting the fence, it might be writing a 279 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 2: pilot for a TV show, it might be recording an 280 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 2: episode of your podcast with Ryan Shelton or whatever it 281 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 2: might be. You know, an episode would be a project. 282 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 2: And so you put all those projects in projects, obviously, 283 00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 2: and then within each of those projects, there's a bunch 284 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 2: of either files or tasks or whatever, and everything that 285 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 2: has to do with that project lives in that folder 286 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 2: when you complete that project. So when this episode is 287 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 2: released and it's done, you move that whole project to archive. 288 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 2: And then so that means that whatever you're working on 289 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 2: right now is always in projects really quick to get 290 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 2: to really obvious. Then areas are like bigger, long term 291 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 2: things that never end. So it might be like health, 292 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 2: it might be money, it might be the whole podcast. 293 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: It might be you know, the podcast which is on 294 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 2: for a long time, might be family, whatever it is. 295 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,239 Speaker 2: So these are projects that have no end date. Projects 296 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 2: in p are projects that do have an end date, 297 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 2: and they'll eventually be moved to archive. But the things 298 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 2: in the areas in area will never be moved out 299 00:16:55,520 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 2: of area unless you stop worrying about your health or whatever. 300 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 2: Resources in R is I don't use it much in 301 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 2: the way that he describes it, but I think that's 302 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 2: for like quotes things I put in obsidian, So like 303 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 2: I guess it would be ideas and yeah, things that 304 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 2: you want to like use for other projects that you 305 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 2: might do. 306 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 3: One day. So you might like read a book about 307 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 3: lacrosse and. 308 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 2: You think, okay, well this is a really interesting thing 309 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 2: about lacrosse, and you learn all this stuff about lacrosse 310 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 2: and you put it in resources under I don't know 311 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 2: books or lacrosse whatever, and then oh no, then one 312 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 2: day you interview someone who's a lacrosse, and you're like, oh, 313 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 2: I read that book about lacrosse, and you go to 314 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 2: the resources tab and you find it and you use it. Yeah, 315 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 2: and then archive obviously is where everything goes once it's finished, 316 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 2: usually projects. So yeah, I've been using that and it 317 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 2: is so good, so so good. 318 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: Something I was curious about. I think one of the 319 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: things that you're known through for your work on The 320 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: Imperfect is having vulnerable conversations. And a few years back 321 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 1: you shared one that you had with your best friend 322 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: Hamish Blake around how I guess how you were feeling, 323 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: and feel free to correct my words, but I guess 324 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: feeling almost ashamed that you weren't more happy for him 325 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: in his achievements, and I guess the jealousy that you 326 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: were experiencing in your friendship. And it was, I would imagine, 327 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: like a really really hard conversation to sort of think 328 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 1: about having. And I was curious as to how you 329 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: prepared for that conversation. 330 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, so that conversation that I had with him 331 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 2: off air, you mean the world? Yeah, So I well, 332 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: there were sort of two parts to it. The first 333 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 2: part of it was I started this podcast with Hugh right, 334 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 2: and so we've got the imperfect about asking people to 335 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:05,360 Speaker 2: be vulnerable. And one of the one of the biggest 336 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 2: vulnerable things that I could think of that I could 337 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 2: talk about was this issue I had which had never 338 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 2: It wasn't like a big deal. It was sort of 339 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 2: like one of those things bubbling in the background of 340 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 2: my mind and in my body, I guess for years, 341 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 2: and wasn't something that affected haymisson my relationship or friendship 342 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 2: at all. Like we'd so so close, we'd do so 343 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 2: many things together, but because we'd started this podcast, you 344 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 2: you know. 345 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 3: No, she didn't even suggest it. I was like, I 346 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 3: feel like i'd. 347 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 2: That would be a really helpful thing to talk about 348 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 2: because I'd spoken to you about it. And he was like, 349 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 2: oh God, like that's such a that would be such 350 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 2: a common thing, being envious of your more successful friend 351 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 2: who who is doing better in the field that you 352 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,959 Speaker 2: want to be doing well in. And he's like, if 353 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 2: you're ever comfortable talking about it, that would be really powerful, 354 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 2: And I knew he was right, but that meant that 355 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 2: I had to talk to Hamish about it. So really 356 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 2: the podcast was a thing that motivated me to actually 357 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 2: talk to him about it, because if I didn't have 358 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: the podcast. I don't know if I ever would have 359 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 2: spoken to him about it, yeah, because I don't think 360 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 2: I would have had the reason to, which is maybe 361 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 2: counterproductive to say out loud, because I encourage everyone to 362 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 2: have these conversations, create a podcast. Well everyone does have 363 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 2: a podcast now anyways, so he actually, you've got no excuses. 364 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. So I had this conversation. 365 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 2: The way I prepared for it, I guess, was just 366 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 2: and that like the way I prepare for any presentation 367 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,959 Speaker 2: or a pitch or whatever is to talk to myself 368 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 2: on my voice memo. So I would practice it and 369 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 2: rehearse it in a way that because I wanted to. 370 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 2: I wanted it to sound I wanted to come out 371 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 2: in an empathetic, caring way, not that I was. It 372 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 2: wasn't even necessarily a controversial thing I was saying to 373 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 2: Hamish at all, because the things I was saying were 374 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 2: all my bad. It wasn't anything he'd done wrong. So 375 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,959 Speaker 2: from that point of view, it wasn't nerve wracking like 376 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 2: I was worried what he would say or how he 377 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 2: would react to my accusations. Like there was nothing like that. 378 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 2: So from that point of view, I wasn't terrified, but 379 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 2: I was nervous because it was vulnerable. It's saying the 380 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 2: thing that you never thought you'd say. And I think 381 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: even more so with guys. Maybe that's a generalization, but 382 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 2: and for Hamish and I it's like, it's not like 383 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 2: we shy away from talking about serious things. We've always 384 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 2: done that. But our friendship is fun like it's we 385 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 2: laugh a lot, and it's like we we love each 386 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 2: other and find each other funny. So so as soon 387 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 2: as one of us starts talking seriously, it's like feels odd. 388 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 2: And I went to a restaurant with Haymes for this 389 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 2: and we were sitting at this restaurant. It was actually 390 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 2: quite a quiet restaurant. It's a stupid place to do it. 391 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 2: But I got to like later in the in the 392 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 2: in the thing, and I I said to him, I said, hey, 393 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 2: I wanted to talk to you about something. 394 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 3: And I just I feel sick even saying it now. 395 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 2: But I started talking and he's, you know, beautiful person 396 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 2: that he is. Just listen, didn't say anything, just listen, 397 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 2: let me get it out. And spoke to him about 398 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 2: all this how I was feeling. I'd been working with 399 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 2: him for years and years we started. We were in 400 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 2: high school together. We stayed at each other's house at 401 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 2: high school, watch Monty Python together. We were, you know, 402 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 2: for all intents and purposes, we were at the same level. 403 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 2: You know, we were equals. And then his career took 404 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 2: off like it did obviously, and then we were working 405 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 2: side We were we were working side by side in 406 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 2: a company together. We were having lots of success and 407 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 2: it was all going really well. But him personally was 408 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 2: going so well, having so much success. I mean, his 409 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 2: radio show with Andy was the biggest radio show of 410 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 2: all time in Australia. And he was not only going well, 411 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 2: but he was so good at what he was doing. 412 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 2: Like it's not even like I could It's not even 413 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 2: like I could say to myself, yeah, he's doing well, 414 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 2: but it's just for it's it's for kids, you know. 415 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 2: It's like it's genuinely something that I really loved. Which 416 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 2: is even tougher because it was really tough because he 417 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 2: was he was getting so much praise, so many accolades, 418 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 2: buying nice houses, you know, doing these things. I was like, oh, 419 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 2: and I was feeling these pangs every time, like pangs 420 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 2: of envy every time something exciting would happen, and I 421 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 2: would of course say, that's be excited for him. But 422 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 2: if I'm honest, I wasn't truly truly stoked for him 423 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 2: because I wasn't getting it for myself. And as a 424 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 2: result of that, I wasn't able to be properly happy, 425 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 2: like genuinely authentically happy for my best friend while he's 426 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,719 Speaker 2: doing the things that we dreamed of as kids. And 427 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 2: so I said all this stuff to him at this dinner, 428 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: and I think I won't say what he said, because 429 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 2: that was, like, you know, that was our stuff. But 430 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 2: he was just very appreciative, I think, even to understand 431 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 2: why I wasn't so pumped for him, and he wasn't 432 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 2: necessarily surprised, Like it's not that shocking that I would 433 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 2: be a little bit envious of how he's going. I 434 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 2: think we're always most of us are conscious of that 435 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 2: when something great happens to us, and if there's someone 436 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 2: else in our life that wants the same thing, you're 437 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 2: conscious of not making too much of a big deal 438 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 2: about it. Like if if you get married, if you're 439 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 2: getting married and then you know your friends trying to 440 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 2: find a partner and they cut you know, you don't 441 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 2: want to rub it in. So he was always very 442 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 2: conscious of that. So because of that, we rarely spoke 443 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 2: about all the great things that they were achieving and doing. 444 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 3: I think he was conscious of the fact that I. 445 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 2: Was anyway, there was this huge block for years, and 446 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 2: as a result, I barely listened to the radio show 447 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 2: because I just it was too I don't want to 448 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 2: say triggering, but it was too. 449 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 3: Confronting, I think. 450 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 2: So when we had the conversation, it was it was 451 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 2: like this lot, this weight had been lifted for me 452 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 2: at least, and I think for him a little bit 453 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 2: as well. And I think since then, it's not like 454 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 2: our relationship changed that dramatically because we were already really close, 455 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 2: but I think it just it did make us closer, 456 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 2: I think, And I feel like now because we're not 457 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 2: working together at the moment, I feel like the longer 458 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 2: we don't work together, the more. And also probably has 459 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 2: something to do with the fact that my. 460 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 3: Podcast is going well. 461 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 2: So I don't mean, you know, so it's like I 462 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 2: feel more relaxed about that. But even if it wasn't, 463 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 2: I feel I'm happy that he knows that I felt 464 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 2: that because I think he now can understand. He understands 465 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 2: why I was behaving in the childish way that I 466 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 2: was behaving, and he's probably well, he's definitely more aware 467 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 2: of that now. But also now that I've said it, 468 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 2: I'm more aware of it now. I listened to their 469 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 2: podcast much more than I used to, even if like 470 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 2: there are times where I wish. 471 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 3: I had what he had. 472 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 2: I wish I could, wish I could get my own 473 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 2: TV show, I wish I could have all these things. 474 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 2: There's still so many things that I haven't got. But 475 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 2: the other part of it, actually, now that I say, 476 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 2: now that I think about it, the other big part 477 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 2: of this that helped me really get through that was 478 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 2: me figuring out my purpose statement and realizing that having 479 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 2: this like huge epiphany realization that if I got everything 480 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 2: I ever dreamed of, it wouldn't make me happy. If 481 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 2: I got everything that Hamish had, it wouldn't automatically make 482 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 2: me this happy person. Once I realized that and then 483 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 2: started like reshifting my not reshifting, shifting my mindset for 484 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 2: the first time and thinking about, like. 485 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 3: Why do I do what I do? 486 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 2: What do I really what's really going to make me 487 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 2: a happy person? Because if it's not getting my own 488 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 2: TV show and being the funniest man in the world 489 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 2: and having billions of dollars, Like, if those things aren't 490 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 2: going to make me happy, you know, in the long term, 491 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 2: then what is? And when I realized that the thing 492 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 2: that actually makes me happy from doing what I do, 493 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 2: it's bringing joy to other people. And when I can 494 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 2: make a video on Instagram it can make someone just 495 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 2: as joyful as if I spent three years making my 496 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 2: big and TV show. When I realized that it meant 497 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 2: that I had more, it felt. I felt I had 498 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 2: so much more control over my happiness and my destiny, 499 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 2: my career because all of a sudden, I wasn't waiting 500 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 2: for permission to be happy. So yeah, so it was 501 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 2: sort of easier to be happy for Hamish because I 502 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 2: was like, oh, I don't I don't need the things. 503 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 2: I don't need all the success and the accolades and 504 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 2: the praise like I thought I did. It's always nice 505 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 2: to get the things, but I don't need them like 506 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 2: I thought I did. 507 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: We will be back soon with Ryan talking about where 508 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: he ended up with thinking about his purpose and what 509 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: it was. If you're looking for more tips to improve 510 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: the way you work and live. I write a weekly 511 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: newsletter where I share practical and simple to apply tips 512 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: to improve your life. You can sign up for that 513 00:28:55,360 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: at Amantha dot substack dot com. That's a month dot 514 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: substack dot com. Where did you land in terms of 515 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: what what is your purpose that you now think of 516 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: day to day? 517 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 2: Well, so I kind of I had this epiphany and 518 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 2: then I that's when I met Hugh and he introduced 519 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 2: me to a guy called Ben Crow. 520 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 3: Have you ever been Crow on this podcast? 521 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: No? I haven't. 522 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 3: No, he's great. 523 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 2: So I met with him. I was very lucky to 524 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 2: have coffee with him, and he spoke to me about 525 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 2: a few things, spoke to me about shame and purpose 526 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 2: and actually my epiphany about well not even epiphany, but 527 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 2: my realization about my shame was connected in some ways 528 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 2: to not being good enough compared to like Hamish. So 529 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 2: I had this sort of shame that I wasn't good 530 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 2: enough to have my own show. I didn't deserve it 531 00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 2: because look, how you know, Hamish is successful, he's funny, 532 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 2: he deserves it, but I'm not as good as him. 533 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 2: So and it's proven because I haven't been given the 534 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 2: same opportunities as he has. So I'm not good enough. 535 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 2: That was my shame. So I figured that out. But 536 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 2: then Ben also encouraged me to come up with a 537 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 2: purpose statement. And there's a great video that he sent 538 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 2: gave to me, which I can give to you, which 539 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 2: you can. 540 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: Share with it. 541 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 2: It's like a five minute, really simple video which can 542 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 2: help you figure out what your purpose statement is. It's 543 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: like a five minute condensed ted talk that some guy did. 544 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 2: And what I came up with pretty quickly. Well, the 545 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 2: way I came up with it was I sort of 546 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 2: thought like, well, and I'd already discovered this because this 547 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 2: is why I reached out to Hugh. But when I 548 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 2: was having this sort of thinking about like what is 549 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 2: my purpose? Why am I doing what I'm doing If 550 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 2: it's not about getting the big show, not about making money, 551 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 2: not about getting awards, Like what is it? I remembered 552 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 2: the story that Hugh told me when he first when 553 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 2: I first met him, like I never met him before obviously, and. 554 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 3: I was at a cafe. 555 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,479 Speaker 2: He came up and said hi to me, introduced himself 556 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 2: and he said I just want to thank you for 557 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 2: your Instagram videos. 558 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 3: And I was like, oh, okay, thanks God. 559 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 2: He used to make I don't do it anymore, but 560 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 2: he's to make all these really silly Instagram videos. 561 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 3: And he said, my name's Hugh. 562 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 2: I have a company called the Resilience Project, and I 563 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 2: do talks to people helping them with their mental health 564 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 2: with preventative evidence based tactics, essentially to help people be happier. 565 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 2: And I was like, I was so impressed. It's like, gee, 566 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 2: that's a noble profession, Like what a cool thing you're doing. 567 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 2: And he said, yeah, well, often, you know, to do 568 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 2: those talks, I have to be in a good mood. 569 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 3: I have to be. 570 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 2: Happy somewhat, and often I'm not, Like if I've had 571 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 2: a hard day or something's gone wrong, then I'm not 572 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 2: in a good place. I need to somehow get myself 573 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 2: into a good place so I can do these talks. 574 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 2: And he said, what I'll more often than not do 575 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 2: is go to your own Instagram watch your videos, and 576 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 2: it puts me in a good mood to be able 577 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 2: to do the talk. And that's the thing I thought 578 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 2: of straight away. I was like, well, that that's a 579 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 2: good purpose, like to give people that to make someone 580 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 2: feel some sort of joy or happiness or distract them 581 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 2: from their pain in some way for a moment. That's 582 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 2: something that I can do right now. I don't need 583 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 2: to pitch a TV show to get that. And that's 584 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 2: something that isn't like it motivates me. And it's actually 585 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 2: that when people tell me that stuff, that's actually way 586 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 2: more impactful than. 587 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 3: Mate, you're really funny, because like, what use is that? 588 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 2: Like it's funny, but I want to know how the 589 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 2: funny makes people feel and if it makes them feel 590 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 2: good or better for a second, that's so inspiring and 591 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 2: that's like motivating. So my purpose statement is to spread 592 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 2: joy through creativity and inspire others to do the same. 593 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 2: So that's the thing that I try. I now put 594 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 2: everything I do does it? Does it serve that purpose? 595 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 2: And if it doesn't, then I'm not interested really. 596 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: That I imagine, Like it's so hard, like coming up 597 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: with a purpose statement like that. It's you know, the 598 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: way you describe it. 599 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 2: It's easy when you watch this video. Yeah, watch this video. 600 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 2: It breaks it down in a simple way. 601 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, we'll definitely share that. That's thank you 602 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: for sharing that. The last thing I wanted to ask you, 603 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: I mean, you've you've been doing the imperfect podcast for 604 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: I want to say four years, five years, And I mean, 605 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan of the show, and like crazy, 606 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: there's not many podcasts that I that I have on 607 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: my must to listen to. At least there's a lot 608 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: that I dabble in, but The Imperfect I listen to 609 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: almost every episode much. 610 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 3: Wow. 611 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: I just I love it. I love what you do. 612 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering, like, over so many year of doing 613 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: it and so many interviews and so many amazing conversations, 614 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: what are the ones, like the stories or even the 615 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: strategies that you've heard that have stuck with you and 616 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: impacted you the most. 617 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:15,839 Speaker 2: I should have a good answer for this, because people 618 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 2: always ask me, and I always think, shit the question again, I. 619 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 3: Don't, but the one that does. 620 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 2: There's lots, really, but often like because of what I do, 621 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 2: the people who come in and talk who are in 622 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 2: the comedy industry or performers are often the ones that 623 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 2: resonate with me the most. Glenn Robins. Glenn Robbins talked 624 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 2: about I used to love the panel and he was 625 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 2: on most. 626 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 3: Weeks, and. 627 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 2: I used to just think that he is so funny 628 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 2: on the panel. He is just his dryness, his timing, 629 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 2: his I don't know, just his tone is just delicious. 630 00:34:58,600 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 3: I love Glenn. 631 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,359 Speaker 2: I love him a person as well, Like I got 632 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 2: to know him now and and and he's on the 633 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 2: podcast he talked about his like crippling insecurity when it 634 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 2: came to performing and particularly on the panel like the 635 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 2: Working Dog guys. Had to really convince Glenn to do 636 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,439 Speaker 2: that to be on that show, because he didn't think 637 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 2: he'd be able to keep up with the like you know, 638 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 2: Rob and Tom, and they're very very you know, smart people, 639 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 2: like they probably very well read interest in lots of 640 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 2: different areas. And I would be just as I'd be 641 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 2: terrified going on a show like that with those guys. 642 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 2: As much as I adore them and admire them, I 643 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 2: would be very intimidated by the not being smart enough 644 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 2: to be on it. And when he was saying all 645 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:56,240 Speaker 2: this stuff, I really related to that fear. But knowing 646 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 2: how scared he was of doing that show and how 647 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 2: good he actually that was quite validating. I think to 648 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 2: me to know, like, because I don't do panel shows 649 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 2: really ever, but if someone asked me to do it, 650 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 2: I'd be terrified, Like I did Spicks and Specs twice, 651 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 2: like in the early days did. Thank God you hear 652 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 2: a couple of times and just terrifying because I'm just 653 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 2: so used to writing and editing and having complete control 654 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 2: over everything. 655 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 3: That was really. 656 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 2: Scary because on a podcast it's different. You know, you 657 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,240 Speaker 2: don't there's no audience there. You can edit it afterwards. 658 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 2: If I say something stupid, I can take it out. 659 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:40,919 Speaker 2: All that podcast is different. But yeah, live show where 660 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 2: I don't have control of the editing, all that terrifies me. 661 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 2: But to hear Glenn talk about it in that way 662 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:48,800 Speaker 2: really helped. 663 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine, Ryan, I think I have to 664 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: let you go, Like I could talk for hours more. 665 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: I've just I've so enjoyed this conversation. 666 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me on so lovely. 667 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: Thank you for all the stories that you've brought. It's 668 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 1: so inspiring, like the journey that you've been on. Plus 669 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: your love of productivity apps is also very inspiring. So 670 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 1: thank you so much, Thank you, Amantha, Thank you so 671 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,879 Speaker 1: much for listening to How I Work. If you want 672 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,360 Speaker 1: more Ryan in your ears, listen to his brilliant podcast 673 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: The Imperfect, which is one of my personal favorites, and 674 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: you can also follow him on Instagram, where he posts 675 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: relatively infrequently. If you enjoyed today's episode, I would love 676 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: to ask a favor. Click follow on the podcast app 677 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 1: that you're listening to this on, and if you're feeling 678 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: really generous, leave a review for the show. Following this 679 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: podcast and leaving reviews helps How I Work find new listeners, 680 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: and your support is one of the things that makes 681 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: this podcast possible. Thank you for sharing part of your 682 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,839 Speaker 1: day with me by listening to How I Work. If 683 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: you're keen for more tips on how to work better, 684 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: connect with me. Tell me via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm 685 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: very easy to find. Just search for Amantha Imba. How 686 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: I Work was recorded on the traditional land of the 687 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: Warrangery people, part of the Cool and Nation. I am 688 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 1: so grateful for being able to work and live on 689 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 1: this beautiful land, and I want to pay my respects 690 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: to elder's past, present and emerging. How I Work is 691 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. 692 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,799 Speaker 1: The producer for this episode was Liam Riordon, and thank 693 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 1: you to Martin Nimba who did the audio mix and 694 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise.