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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Family's podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent.

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Speaker 1: They just once answers MEW.

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Speaker 3: Lately, I've been doing a lot of resilience workshops, lots

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Speaker 3: of parents worried about their kids resilience. There's one topic

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Speaker 3: that I bring up in that resilience workshop that gets

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Speaker 3: parents one of two things, either very very excited or

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Speaker 3: very very upset, nervous, worried and anxious. The topic is

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Speaker 3: risky play. Risky play and Kylie you can understand both.

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Speaker 3: Right as soon as I start saying it's good for

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Speaker 3: your children to do things that are risky, you can

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Speaker 3: see why they might hesitate. They might pause and say.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but are you talking about leaving your kids with

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Speaker 2: some matches and paper? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, that's what camping is.

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Speaker 2: For climbing the climbing frame on their own.

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Speaker 3: I'm a bit boring. I'd like more risk than that.

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Speaker 3: Let's speak about climbing frames for a sec. When you

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Speaker 3: were a youngster, back in the olden days, old before

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Speaker 3: computers BC, what was your favorite piece of playground equipment?

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Speaker 2: It was this massive pine tree in the back of

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Speaker 2: my school playground.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, just pause right there. Note I said playground equipment,

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Speaker 3: and you have gone straight out of the playground to

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Speaker 3: the tree. I love that this was not prescripted. You

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Speaker 3: didn't know the question was coming. Tell me more about

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Speaker 3: the pine tree. Why'd you like it so much?

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Speaker 2: It would have been maybe seven stories high, like it

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Speaker 2: was massive, and it had these beautiful big bows just

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Speaker 2: stretching out, which felt like the miles. As a little kid,

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Speaker 2: and me and my friends would climb up and we

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Speaker 2: would whoa, woh.

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Speaker 1: Ooh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa.

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Speaker 3: Hang on, you're at school and you're climbing trees. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that was allowed.

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Speaker 2: That was allowed.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: And we would each claim about and that was our bedroom,

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Speaker 2: and we used to take some pine leaves and pine

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Speaker 2: needles and swim the floor because there was no grass underneath,

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Speaker 2: that was all dirt. And then we'd use the pine

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Speaker 2: cones and we'd make, you know, different things to eat.

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Speaker 2: It was just so much fun. Like that is honestly,

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Speaker 2: hands down my favorite childhood memory. Justin yes, what was

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Speaker 2: your favorite playground equipment when you were a kid?

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Speaker 3: Hey, thanks so much for asking.

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Speaker 1: My favorite? I had a couple.

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Speaker 3: Do you remember those?

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Speaker 1: I think that you would call it a merry go.

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Speaker 2: Round, a chuck up spinning thing.

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Speaker 3: Well, it wasn't so much a chuck up thing. I'm

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Speaker 3: going to get to that in a sec. It was

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Speaker 3: the thing where you'd get i don't know, five or

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Speaker 3: ten kids sitting on it, and then one person would

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Speaker 3: hold the handrail and just run as fast as you

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Speaker 3: could and spin as fast as you could. And it

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Speaker 3: was just delightful to stand on that thing and push

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Speaker 3: it around in a circle as fast as you could.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if anyone got sick on it, but super.

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Speaker 2: So all the time.

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Speaker 3: So we also had this thing at a park near

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Speaker 3: my house. It was kind of like a little sphere

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Speaker 3: and you could climb into it and there was a

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Speaker 3: handle in the middle that you could spin the handle

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Speaker 3: that was the vomitron.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's disgusting, spin around.

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Speaker 3: And also at the park where near where I grew

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Speaker 3: up in Niagara Park, just off Gilda Drive, there was

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Speaker 3: a park there and it had what felt at the

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Speaker 3: time to be the biggest slide in the world. Just

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Speaker 3: down the road from my grandma and grandpa in Cardigan

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Speaker 3: Street in Auburn, there was a park as well, just

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Speaker 3: next to Duck Creek, and they had a slide. So

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Speaker 3: the big slide near where I drew up, it followed

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Speaker 3: the land as the land slid down. It just went

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Speaker 3: down the land, so you could always just get out

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Speaker 3: of the slide and put your feet on the ground.

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Speaker 3: Whereas the one in Ann and Pops it had the

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Speaker 3: tallest ladder of any slide I've ever seen in any

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Speaker 3: playground in history.

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Speaker 1: It was huge. That were my favorites.

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Speaker 3: Oh and big swings, not the little playground swings like.

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Speaker 1: We have now.

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Speaker 3: Back in my day. I can't believe I just said

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Speaker 3: that we used to have swings and they were so

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Speaker 3: big that you couldn't reach the person as they swung

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Speaker 3: back to you because they were swinging so high. We

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Speaker 3: don't do any of that sort of stuff anymore. And

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Speaker 3: the reason that we don't have that sort of playground

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Speaker 3: equipment anymore is because people are worried that the risks. Well,

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Speaker 3: I think counsels are worried that somebody's going to get

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Speaker 3: sued because an arm will be broken, or a leg

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Speaker 3: will be broken, or somebody's going to get knocked unconscious

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Speaker 3: because a piece of steel hits them.

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Speaker 1: As this merry go round spins around really fast.

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Speaker 3: But here's the thing didn't really happen that much. Kids

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Speaker 3: figured it out.

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Speaker 2: I remember a couple of kids breaking their arms on

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Speaker 2: the monkey bars when I was growing up. But when

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Speaker 2: you look at the number of children that went through

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Speaker 2: the school, or.

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Speaker 3: The hours of play on those monkey.

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Speaker 2: Bars, exactly, it was such a minute minority. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: just a minority, it was tiny.

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Speaker 3: Okay, unplanned question, how serious is it when your child

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Speaker 3: breaks an arm? Like, is it that big of a deal?

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Speaker 2: It's not.

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Speaker 3: No, it's a story for the rest of your life. Like,

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Speaker 3: we really do worry about this stuff, and I'm not

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Speaker 3: sure that we're worried about the right kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: I want to talk about this idea of risky play

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Speaker 3: that is risky is played that involves heights, that involves speed,

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Speaker 3: that involves the potential for impact, play that involves independence,

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Speaker 3: and just for find I'm going to throw in play

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Speaker 3: that involves tools. And the central point that I want

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Speaker 3: to make here is that when we grew up, it

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Speaker 3: wasn't called risky play.

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Speaker 2: It was just played.

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Speaker 1: It's exactly what it was. We've sanitized play. We've sanitized

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Speaker 1: the life.

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Speaker 3: The learning, and the opportunity out of play.

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Speaker 2: When I went to preschool, so I was four years

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Speaker 2: old and I still have vivid memories of the workbench.

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Speaker 2: It was supplied with all the clamps that we needed,

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Speaker 2: the nails, the hammers, and it was all there so

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Speaker 2: I could hammer all the different recyclable items onto a

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Speaker 2: piece of wood and then take it home and show

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Speaker 2: my mom and dad proudly what I had made.

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Speaker 3: Parents are struggling so much with the idea of risky

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Speaker 3: play that the Canadian Pediatric Society has put a list

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Speaker 3: together of how you can teach parents to do risky

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Speaker 3: play at home. Wow, and I know there's a wow

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Speaker 3: factor there, but I also, based on the conversations that

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Speaker 3: I'm having in various halls and teaching rooms and conferences

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Speaker 3: around the country, I want to go through this list

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Speaker 3: with you. We have limited time for it, so I

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Speaker 3: am going to go quickly, but feel free to interject

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Speaker 3: wherever you want. They've highlighted how you can do risky

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Speaker 3: play at home.

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Speaker 2: But here's the struggle though, there's no risky play anywhere allowed.

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Speaker 3: That's why is where it's got to happen.

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Speaker 2: So parents follow suit right of.

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Speaker 3: Course, but with the very best of intentions, we just

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Speaker 3: don't want our kids to get hurt.

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Speaker 1: It's horrible when you can get hurt. It really is.

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Speaker 3: We had a daughter who fell off. It wasn't even

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Speaker 3: a monkey bar, but it was that kind of thing

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Speaker 3: and she broke her arm. We didn't realize for a

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Speaker 3: few hours.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't a few hours, okay, maybe half an hour.

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Speaker 1: And you guess what.

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Speaker 3: She's got a great story about how she fell off

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Speaker 3: while we were down at the VLLA Drome show.

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Speaker 2: By the time I saw her ten minutes later, because

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Speaker 2: I'd sent her to the car, her arm was completely.

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Speaker 3: Bowed right, it was broken.

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Speaker 1: It was ugly.

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Speaker 3: Here's how you encourage risky play at home. Ideally, some

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Speaker 3: of the kids don't break a leg or break an arm,

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Speaker 3: but something they might, and that's where the fun is.

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Speaker 1: Playing at height.

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Speaker 3: The Canadian Pediatric Society says that means that you give

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Speaker 3: your children opportunities to climb and jump and balance at height.

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Speaker 3: And note there's no suggestion that there needs to be

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Speaker 3: soft fall or a rubber mat underneath them.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting again. I just had another visual. One of

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Speaker 2: the play equipment options at my school when I was

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Speaker 2: in grade one and two was this balancing beam. But

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Speaker 2: it wasn't a balancing being close to the ground, like

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Speaker 2: it was a full probably a meter and a half

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Speaker 2: off the ground. Like when I fell, I couldn't like

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Speaker 2: I didn't reach the height of the balancing beam.

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Speaker 3: I was doing that when I was a kid. Once

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Speaker 3: my dad said, look, it just didn't have fun. But

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Speaker 3: if you fall and break both your legs, don't come

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Speaker 3: running to me. Playing at speed that involves maybe riding

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Speaker 3: a bike at high speed, or sliding or running. We

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Speaker 3: used to do cardboard box sliding down steep hills with

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Speaker 3: the kids. We'd get like a refrigerated box, sit on

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Speaker 3: the box and just slide down this grassy hill. When

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Speaker 3: we were living in Woongong. There was a great spot

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Speaker 3: for it. And we've also as the kids got older

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Speaker 3: gone ice blocking so much fun. Sit on a block

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Speaker 3: of ice that you can buy from wherever you buy

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Speaker 3: wholesale ice. Sit on the block of ice and slide

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Speaker 3: down a grassy hill. Play involving tools supervised activities involving

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Speaker 3: an axe, saw, knife, hammer, or ropes. I mean camping.

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Speaker 3: That's why kids love camping. Here's the next one that

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Speaker 3: they suggest. Play involving potentially dangerous elements. In other words,

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Speaker 3: playing near fire or water. I remember being on a

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Speaker 3: hike with the kids once and we found a waterfall

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Speaker 3: and just watching the kids scramble over these jagged rocks

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Speaker 3: near the base of the waterfall and thinking this is

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Speaker 3: so good. They're climbing over these jagged rocks and.

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Speaker 1: This could go really badly. But here's the critical thing.

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Speaker 3: They take the risks that are appropriate for them, and

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Speaker 3: they learn how to navigate.

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Speaker 1: And judge the risks.

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Speaker 3: Rough and tuble play, so there's wrestling play, fighting, fencing

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Speaker 3: with sticks, play with risk for disappearing or getting lost.

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Speaker 3: The Canadian Pediatric Society say that exploring play spaces neighborhoods

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Speaker 3: or woods without adult supervision or in the case of

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Speaker 3: young children with limited supervision, like hiding behind the bushes,

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Speaker 3: is good for them. There are two others, play involving impacts,

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Speaker 3: so you could crash into something or someone, maybe repeatedly

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Speaker 3: and of course only for fun. And lastly, vicarious play.

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Speaker 3: Vicarious play is experiencing the thrill of watching other, often

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Speaker 3: older children, engaging in risky play.

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Speaker 1: I love the list.

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Speaker 2: Another visual I went to my cousin's house one day

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Speaker 2: I probably was about eight, and she had a brand

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Speaker 2: new set of roll escapes. The problem was she lived

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Speaker 2: at the top of this really steep driveway, so there

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Speaker 2: was nowhere to roll the skate.

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Speaker 1: That's brilliant.

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Speaker 2: I had never a pair of roller skates, and I

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Speaker 2: spent probably three or four hours trying to master roller

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Speaker 2: skating down the driveway.

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Speaker 1: That's fantastic.

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Speaker 2: I think my bum must have been so black and

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Speaker 2: blue by the end of that day.

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Speaker 3: I need to make a quick note. We do need

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Speaker 3: to make sure when we consider that list, that what

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Speaker 3: we're encouraging our children to do is developmently appropriate. So

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Speaker 3: there's a great line that I picked up from Jonathan

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Speaker 3: Hats after Babel Substack. He said, you want your kids

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Speaker 3: to be as safe as necessary, not as safe as possible.

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Speaker 3: So we do need to still recognize that there are risks.

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Speaker 3: That's why it's called risky play, and it needs to

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Speaker 3: be developmentally appropriate. A four year old can't do what

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Speaker 3: a fourteen year old can, and we shouldn't encourage that.

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Speaker 2: I loved what you said before about the fact that

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Speaker 2: as we allow our children the opportunity to spread their

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Speaker 2: wings a little bit and engage in risky play, they

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Speaker 2: will take the risks that are appropriate for them. Yes,

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Speaker 2: and as adults, it's really important that we don't don't

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Speaker 2: squash that inner voice and push them to do things

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Speaker 2: beyond their capacity within reason.

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Speaker 3: One other thing that I need to emphasize, and that's

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Speaker 3: this pushing point. We've got to allow our children the

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Speaker 3: option of saying no. So this is not about us

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Speaker 3: making them do risky play. This is about creating an

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Speaker 3: environment where they have the capacity to take risk. It's

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Speaker 3: about agency or autonomy. We need to be careful with pressure.

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Speaker 3: We didn't have adults pushing us to be risky when

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Speaker 3: we were kids. We just went and played case in point.

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Speaker 3: And I think I've shared this story before. Last Christmas,

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Speaker 3: we spent some time with my parents on the New

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Speaker 3: South walest Central Coast. My parents have a boat and

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Speaker 3: they have a donut that you can tie to it

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Speaker 3: not for eating, a doughnut that you can lay on

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Speaker 3: and lay behind the boat and zoom around. And our

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Speaker 3: youngest Emily, who at the time was nine, was terrified

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Speaker 3: this was risky for her. She was going to put

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Speaker 3: a life jacket on, hold on to the doughnut and

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Speaker 3: then get whipped around the water and then.

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Speaker 2: Fall into the jellyfish infestive water.

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Speaker 3: There are millions of big jellyfish in the water. And

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Speaker 3: so we put her on the donut and said, promise,

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Speaker 3: we're not going to knock you off. We just want

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Speaker 3: you to get used to it. She was happy to

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Speaker 3: do that if she had a sister on either side

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Speaker 3: of her, and the doughnut was big enough for the

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Speaker 3: three of them to lay there. And after about thirty

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Speaker 3: seconds she was like, I like it. And then she

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Speaker 3: started to give us directions faster, faster. She wanted the speed,

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Speaker 3: she wanted the impact, she wanted the thrill, she wanted

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Speaker 3: the risk. She just needed to acclimatize to it.

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Speaker 1: Now. She did not fall off.

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Speaker 3: We made sure that while we gave her a lot

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Speaker 3: of fun, we kept it just to a level where

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Speaker 3: she could barely hang on.

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Speaker 1: But she hung on.

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Speaker 3: The critical thing here is that we are now going

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Speaker 3: to go back there next year, because she's dying. Every

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Speaker 3: time she gets the chance, Poppy wink and we go

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Speaker 3: on the boat again, she's dying to get on there.

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Speaker 3: She still doesn't want to fall off, but as she

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Speaker 3: gets bigger, as she has more experience with it, she

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Speaker 3: will continue to push those boundaries until she's delighted to

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Speaker 3: fall off and hopefully there won't be any jellyfish in

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Speaker 3: the water.

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Speaker 2: So you've got five tips for parents who are struggling

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Speaker 2: to engage in risky play.

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Speaker 3: Let me dive into these five things right before I do.

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Speaker 3: Research evidence shows some people are listening to this saying, yeah,

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Speaker 3: but I've got an anxious child. I can't do this

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Speaker 3: for them. Risky play, according to recent research, helps children

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Speaker 3: overcome anxiety disorders and the cognitive distortions that go along

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Speaker 3: with them.

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Speaker 2: Anyone who's done something hard knows the thrill that comes

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Speaker 2: from having achieved it, like you get to the other

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Speaker 2: side and you're just.

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Speaker 3: You're pumped, yep, and anxious children they don't get pumped

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Speaker 3: until they've overcome it. So they see something that has

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Speaker 3: some uncertainty, they don't know how to tolerate it. They

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Speaker 3: do tend to interpret ambiguous situations quite negatively, and they

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Speaker 3: underestimate their ability to cope if the situation has some

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Speaker 3: level of uncertainty around it. In risky play, kids practice

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Speaker 3: dealing with strong, ambiguous emotions. Because thrill and excitement are

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Speaker 3: also interpreted as fear and terror, they learn how to

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Speaker 3: cope with that. They learn how to deal with situations

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Speaker 3: that abound with uncertainty, and it shows them that they're

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Speaker 3: resilient and capable of coping when things go wrong. The

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Speaker 3: research shows that children with more opportunities for risky play

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Speaker 3: have lower internalizing symptoms that you would consider characteristic of

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Speaker 3: anxiety disorders.

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Speaker 1: Just had to say that.

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Speaker 3: So let's dive into what we can do to encourage

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Speaker 3: our kids to be playing in ways that are good

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Speaker 3: for them, that is, that are risky see above. Number one,

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Speaker 3: say yes, like don't be the parent says, oh no,

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Speaker 3: you can't do that.

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Speaker 1: Just say yes.

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Speaker 3: Number two, be outdoors because outdoors lends itself to risky

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Speaker 3: play much more than being indoors on carpet staring at

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Speaker 3: the TV.

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Speaker 1: Number three.

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Speaker 3: Encourage sports and rough and tumble play and time near water.

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Speaker 3: Obviously safety does need to be a factor, but look

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Speaker 3: for opportunities to be outside and move your body.

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Speaker 1: Number four. Get rids screens.

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Speaker 3: Number five get out of the way. Just get out

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Speaker 3: of the way. Stop controlling. I don't want to minimize

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Speaker 3: the significance of breaking an arm, but breaking arms are okay.

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Speaker 3: Of course it's painful. Of course there's stress associated with it,

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Speaker 3: but breaking an arm is okay. The kids can take risks.

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Speaker 3: There's nothing more exciting than climbing up on the roof

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Speaker 3: and jumping into the pool.

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Speaker 2: A handful of years ago, our eldest convinced me to

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Speaker 2: jump out of a plane with her. Yes, I may

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Speaker 2: have been saying what I thought might be my last

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Speaker 2: prayer that morning before I left to get in that bus,

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Speaker 2: and at the end of it, she asked me if

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Speaker 2: I was glad I did it, And the reality is

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Speaker 2: I wasn't. I actually wasn't.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't expecting any I didn't.

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Speaker 2: I didn't love the way my body felt in that space.

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Speaker 2: Does that mean that I'm completely risk averse. No, There's

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Speaker 2: plenty of things that I'm happy to do that still

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Speaker 2: leave me feeling really, really anxious in the moment. But

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Speaker 2: I've worked out what my tolerance level is in relation

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Speaker 2: to what I'm willing to put myself through. I'm still

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Speaker 2: willing to do hard things, but there are some things

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Speaker 2: that I just know is not worth the payout.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's a really really good point.

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Speaker 2: And so yeah, I just think we help our kids

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Speaker 2: to recognize there are some things that are worth pushing

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Speaker 2: through and there are other things that if this is

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Speaker 2: too much for you.

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Speaker 1: That's okay, yep. Agency matters.

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Speaker 3: Let's wrap up with a quote from Roll Dah who said,

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Speaker 3: the more risks you allow children to take, the better

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Speaker 3: they learn to take care of themselves. If you never

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Speaker 3: let them take any risks, then I believe they become

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Speaker 3: very prone to injury. Boys should be allowed to climb

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Speaker 3: tall trees and walk along the top of high walls

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Speaker 3: and dive into the sea from high rocks. The same

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Speaker 3: with girls. I like the type of child who takes

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Speaker 3: risks better by far than the one who never does.

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Speaker 3: The research is pretty clear when you let your kids

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Speaker 3: take risks, they become more physically developed, They are more

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Speaker 3: emotionally resilient, they develop more social skills, they're better at

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Speaker 3: risk assessment, they're more creative in terms of the way

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Speaker 3: they solve problems, their mental health improves, and they have

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Speaker 3: a sense of agency autonomy over their lives. It's just

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Speaker 3: so valuable. We really hope that you've enjoyed the conversation today.

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Speaker 1: I know we've gone over time. It's such a great topic, though,

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Speaker 1: isn't it.

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Speaker 3: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rwland from

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Speaker 3: Bridge Media. If you'd like more information about making your

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Speaker 3: family happy. We'd love for you to join us at

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Speaker 3: happy families dot com dot a U check out our

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Speaker 3: brand new product. It's called FELT. It's part of the

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Speaker 3: Happy Families membership. FELT stands for fostering emotional learning together.

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Speaker 3: It's all available at happy families dot com dot