1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:00,320 Speaker 1: Well. 2 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 2: It is a heartbreaking story which Matt Cunningham broke on 3 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 2: Friday that shocked many across the Northern Territory. A contractor 4 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 2: working on the Northern Territory government's troubled Acacia IT project 5 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 2: was reportedly subjected to bullying and harassment in the workplace 6 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 2: before his sudden death last month. Now, Sean Joyce's family 7 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 2: say that he was trying to lead a team that 8 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 2: was constantly overworked and burnt out in the months before 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 2: he died as they tried to implement the three hundred 10 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 2: and twenty one million dollar IT system in NT hospitals 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 2: that was running several years over time and tens of 12 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 2: millions of dollars over budget. But his attempts to warn 13 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 2: his superiors about the devastating impacts of their demands fell 14 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 2: on deaf. Years now, his sister, Kara Joyce is now 15 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 2: bravely speaking out, calling for answers and some change in 16 00:00:54,960 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 2: the work in the workplace following her brother using away. Now, 17 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 2: Caara joins me on the line right now. Good morning 18 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 2: to Kara. 19 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 3: Good morning Katie. 20 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 2: I just want to firstly start by saying how sorry 21 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 2: I am for your loss and you know, thank you 22 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: for bravely coming on the show this morning. 23 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 3: Well, thank you for that, Caara. 24 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 2: Can you tell me a bit more about your brother 25 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 2: and what kind of person he was, Yes. 26 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 3: Sure, Sean was quite quietly spoken, gentle and kind. He 27 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 3: also understood what it meant to be a leader. He 28 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 3: understood his responsibility to people and that it was the 29 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 3: people doing the work. And it's been quite lovely to 30 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 3: hear the stories of people coming forward about Sean and 31 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 3: how he helped them, not just in the workplace but 32 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 3: outside of the workplace, and there's been a consistent narrative 33 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 3: that he gave them his time and he understood them 34 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 3: and understood that in doing that he would get the 35 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 3: best out of people. And he did it because he 36 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 3: was a kind person. Dahn was his home. He moved 37 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 3: there into the twenty nineteen and he wanted to stay. 38 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 3: So you know what he was doing, he knew it 39 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 3: was important. 40 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 2: Kara, you've described his experience on the Acacia project as 41 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 2: absolute hell. Can you help us understand what he was 42 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 2: going through on a day to day basis? 43 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 3: Sure, As I said, Sean's work was really important to him. 44 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 3: So it was a major part of his life and 45 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 3: the culture in the workplace doesn't invite the healthy challenging 46 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 3: of ideas. Nepotism's led to a lot of people being 47 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 3: promoted way beyond the skill set, and this means that 48 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 3: complex problems are often oversimplified and anyone that questions them 49 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 3: is pushed out, and this often happened to Sean. Another 50 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 3: dimension that added some complication was that Sean had entered 51 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 3: into a relationship with a person in. 52 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: The workplace a few years ago. 53 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 3: And I have no issues with this there we're consenting adults, 54 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 3: but the relationship with witness to be quite controlling outside 55 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 3: of the workplace, and this billed into the workplace. I 56 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 3: have heard stories of and Sean did report back to 57 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 3: me that if female staff were seen in his office, 58 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 3: he would be berated by a variety of mediums. And 59 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 3: it became even more problematic when this relationships out and ended, 60 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 3: because the behavior is what I can only describe is abusive. 61 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 3: And this occurred in the workplace during work hours, and 62 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 3: I believe that there is an obligation, a legal obligation 63 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 3: on the senior leaders to address this, and this wasn't done, 64 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 3: and in fact, some of the senior leaders participated in 65 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 3: the charade and I have questions, my family have questions 66 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 3: that if the genders were reversed in this situation, would 67 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 3: we be so easily dismissing it, or would we name 68 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 3: it for what it was. 69 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: Can you shed some light on his treatment in the workplace. 70 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 2: I mean you've touched on some of it there and 71 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: some of the concerns, but I mean tell us a 72 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 2: little bit more about being some of the demands placed 73 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: upon him and others if you're able to, Yeah. 74 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: Sure, so. 75 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 3: There are a lot of good people on the project, 76 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 3: but often it was left to the capable people to 77 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 3: shoulder the majority of work. As I said, Sean cared 78 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 3: for people. So if he recognized other people were being 79 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 3: burnt out, people with families with small children, he had 80 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 3: a huge breadth of skill set and he would step 81 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 3: up and he would carry that. And he did raise 82 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 3: issues about burnout for other stuff. But it was quite 83 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 3: obvious to all of us that he was taking on 84 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 3: a lot of work and that was never managed at all. 85 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 2: Do you believe what happened to your brother is a 86 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 2: symptom of bigger problems here? 87 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: Absolutely? Absolutely. 88 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 3: I don't think that Sean is the first person that 89 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 3: this has happened to I just think that he is 90 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 3: the latest. I do believe that the program have a 91 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 3: long history of just moving the problem along, pushing people out, intimidating, 92 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 3: and that needs to be addressed. 93 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 2: Did Sean ever feel supported or safe enough to report 94 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 2: what was happening? And I mean it doesn't sound as 95 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: though he did, But I mean, would others feel safe 96 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 2: enough to be able to speak up? I guess is 97 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 2: what I'm getting to as well. 98 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 3: I mean, I can't speak on behalf of others, but 99 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 3: Sean and I did have conversations, and the problem was 100 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 3: was who do you go through when you are in 101 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 3: a senior role like that? Who's going to listen? And 102 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 3: previous attempts to escalate had fallen on deaf years. So 103 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 3: if someone in a senior position is feeling like that, 104 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 3: I can only imagine what it must feel like for 105 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 3: the workers. 106 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 2: CARAA, why have you decided to speak out? I mean, 107 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: to me, it is clear that it is the love 108 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: that you've got for your brother, the connection that you've 109 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 2: got for your brother, and not wanting to see somebody 110 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: else go through this. 111 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 3: That's exactly right. So our family understand that the Shan's 112 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 3: gone he's not coming back, but we keep asking the 113 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 3: question that if nothing is done, who's going to be next? 114 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 3: So we're hoping that in speaking out we can have 115 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 3: a bit of transparency, as it's critical in addressing the 116 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 3: issues that not only magnified Shaun's distress but also enabled. 117 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: A culture of poor behavior that's. 118 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 3: Been able to persist for far too long with the 119 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 3: onus on the victims to remove themselves from the situation. 120 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 2: This system has been plagued with issues right from the 121 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 2: get go. But in light of what has happened in 122 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 2: your family's situation, and in light of the issues that 123 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 2: continue to seem to happen, what changes do you want 124 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 2: to see here? 125 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 3: So I do believe there needs to be a cultural overhaul, 126 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 3: and I understand that that's a really challenging, complex thing 127 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 3: to do. However, I think it starts with leaders that 128 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 3: have a history in actually understanding modern day organizational psychology 129 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 3: and how that can be implemented in a way to 130 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 3: get the best out of workers and to keep people safe. 131 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 3: Because this project is really important for all territorians, and 132 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 3: it's not just because of the sunken costs, because at 133 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 3: its core, the idea of a unified system is going 134 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 3: to improve the health outcomes, quality of life and contribute 135 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 3: to a sustainable health system, but it shouldn't come at 136 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 3: the cost of people. 137 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, do you know or do you have any idea 138 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: what kind of investigation is now underway or if there 139 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: is sort of further you know, internal inquiries happening at 140 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 2: the moment as a result of your brother's loss, and 141 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 2: you know the impact that is had on staff as 142 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 2: they try to deliver what you have described is a 143 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: really important system. 144 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 3: Absolutely, I'm aware that there is an investigation. I don't 145 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 3: have any insight as to what it involves, and I 146 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 3: don't really have any updates, but we're really hopeful that 147 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 3: whatever is occurring is comprehensive and yield not only answers 148 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 3: for my family, but also long lasting results for the workplace. 149 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 2: I understand that the Parliamentary Accounts Committee is going to 150 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 2: be looking into the acacia it system. My understanding is 151 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 2: that they'll be looking into it, you know, from the 152 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 2: perspective of how long it is taking to get up 153 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 2: and running and the cost. But do you think that 154 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 2: needs also that the Parliamentary Accounts Committee need to look 155 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 2: at your brother's situation and what's happened here. 156 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 3: I actually think it's bigger. I love my brother, but 157 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 3: it's bigger than Sean. I think that they need to 158 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 3: look at the culture that led to his distress, because 159 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,479 Speaker 3: it's probably also behind why the program has an inability 160 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 3: to implement and squander. 161 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: Tax paid dollars. 162 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 3: I think that they will find that it is a 163 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 3: big cultural problem. 164 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: A lack of capability. 165 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 3: It does not matter how amazing the product is that 166 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 3: you're implementing. If you don't do it well and you 167 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 3: don't have the right people, it's not going to work. 168 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: Kara, what change do you want to see from the 169 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 2: Northern Territory government and the agency involved, and what do 170 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 2: you hope comes from your decision to really bravely speak out. 171 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 3: I want them to understand that the people doing the 172 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 3: work matter, that they are the ones that get things done. 173 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 3: And I want to see more protections for workers, more 174 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 3: respectful workers, and a culture where having robust conversation isn't demonized, 175 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 3: but it's encouraged that we understand that that's what leads 176 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 3: to collaboration, what leads to efficient, effective use of tax 177 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 3: payer dollars. 178 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 2: Kara, I really appreciate you speaking to us this morning. 179 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 2: I appreciate you giving territorians some further insight into what 180 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 2: is going on, but I you knows as a woman 181 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 2: with brothers myself who I love dearly, I appreciate you 182 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 2: and you having the honesty and the bravery to be 183 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 2: able to speak so beautifully about your brother and speak 184 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 2: up for your brother. 185 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 3: Thank you, Katie, I really appreciate it. 186 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thanks so much for your time today.