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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, this idea that awards and awards, ceremonies and these

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Speaker 2: extrinsic rewards need to be given merit awards or whatever

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Speaker 2: they are, is just so toxic.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: We have got a doozy of a listener question this week.

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Speaker 2: I love this question. I'm so excited that it's come through.

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Speaker 2: It's comes through from Lisa. Oh, by the way, Hi,

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Speaker 2: I'm Justin and I'm Curly, and we're the parents of

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Speaker 2: six daughters aged from seventh through to early twenties. And

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Speaker 2: I'm the founder of Happy Families dot com, dot you,

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Speaker 2: and this is the Happy Family's podcast. Every Tuesday we

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Speaker 2: answer your questions. Can I read the question? Go for it?

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Speaker 2: I'm so excited, Lisa has said, Hi, I'm just after

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Speaker 2: your thoughts and advice. My daughter never gets school assembly awards,

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Speaker 2: but she lives by the graduate outcomes of respect, achieve

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Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera at school and definitely at home.

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Speaker 2: She's disappointed and confused and wonders why they can't make

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Speaker 2: it fair and why some kids have got the award twice.

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Speaker 2: I get that kids need to learn disappointment, and I

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Speaker 2: have told her that not everyone gets surprised. But how

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Speaker 2: do I say it in a way that she'll get

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Speaker 2: it and be happy in her own skin and help

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Speaker 2: her to accept that she is good enough? I love

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Speaker 2: this question, Lisa. I've got some things to say.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you've opened a whole cannon worms, Lisa.

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Speaker 2: So what do you reckon, honey? Before I dive in,

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Speaker 2: because obviously my plate is full of things that I

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Speaker 2: can talk about here. Our kids go to schools where

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Speaker 2: there are awards because it's kind of what happens in school,

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Speaker 2: full stop, end of story. It's very hard to find

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Speaker 2: a school where it doesn't happen, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And obviously, with such a huge age range of children,

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Speaker 3: we've experienced lots of different ways of rewarding our children

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Speaker 3: at school, all.

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Speaker 2: Of them which I'm opposed to, by the way, Yes,

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Speaker 2: every single one. I hate them all and I'm probably

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Speaker 2: not telling you how strongly are I feel about it

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Speaker 2: enough when I say I hate the whole.

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Speaker 3: But the latest one has really it's really in your face.

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Speaker 3: Oh gee, I hate this one so the school that

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Speaker 3: the kids go to at the moment, they have a

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Speaker 3: gold behavior standard. So they have a behavior chart in

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Speaker 3: every classroom and you have gold standard, silver, bronze, and

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Speaker 3: then you're below the ladder. Wow, and the children actually

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Speaker 3: have to move themselves along that ladder depending on their behavior.

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Speaker 2: So everyone can see where every child is.

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Speaker 3: Everyone can see it, and that you know, each individual

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Speaker 3: child has to move their own.

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Speaker 2: Now the kids are going to a school where this happens.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know this.

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Speaker 3: So the culminating impact of this is that every day

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Speaker 3: it's recorded whether or not they're a gold standard child.

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Speaker 3: If they are a gold standard child for twelve months consecutively,

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Speaker 3: they are awarded a gold hat. So when we move

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Speaker 3: to the school at the beginning of term four, I

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Speaker 3: saw all of these kids at the school with gold hats. Well,

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Speaker 3: I went to buy uniforms and the kids wanted a

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Speaker 3: gold hat because all their friends had a gold hat,

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Speaker 3: and I couldn't find these gold hats. I had no

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Speaker 3: idea about the system or what this was all about,

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Speaker 3: so I had to buy them a blue hat. Well,

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Speaker 3: when you go to the school, you have to spot

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Speaker 3: a blue hat. It's a very very obvious that you're

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Speaker 3: not part.

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Speaker 2: Of the group. Wow.

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Speaker 3: And so it wasn't until we'd been at the school

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Speaker 3: for probably a month and a half or so I

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Speaker 3: made friends with one of the mums and we got

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Speaker 3: talking about it, and I discovered what the gold hat

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Speaker 3: was all about. Her children had been gold standard children

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Speaker 3: for three terms. At the end of term three, they

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Speaker 3: actually pulled their children out to go on a trip

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Speaker 3: around Australia, and as a result, their children didn't receive

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Speaker 3: a gold hat because they hadn't been at school for

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Speaker 3: four terms.

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Speaker 2: Well, they weren't gold standard. Then if they're not at

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Speaker 2: school the whole time, they can't be gold standard.

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Speaker 3: Meantime, our child had been a gold standard student for

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Speaker 3: the higher term for and then had to sit in

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Speaker 3: the awards ceremony for all of the children who would

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Speaker 3: receive their gold standards, and she couldn't understand why.

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Speaker 2: They all got gold hats and she didn't get one

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Speaker 2: because she'd only been a gold student for a term,

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Speaker 2: because she'd only been at the school for a term. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so I hate, hate, hate, hate. I'm sitting here listening

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Speaker 2: to you say this, and it's devastating, it really is.

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Speaker 2: I didn't actually know, so our kids go to a

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Speaker 2: public school, but private schools do this as well. But

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Speaker 2: our kids go to the public school down the road,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't know that this is what they're subjected to.

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Speaker 2: And I'm just so to any teachers from the school

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Speaker 2: that our kids go to who are listening, it's not

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Speaker 2: a personal thing. I don't dislike you. I'm grateful for

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Speaker 2: what you do for our kids. Any teacher who's listening,

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Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for teachers. They're extraordinary. But this idea

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Speaker 2: that awards and awards, ceremonies and these extrinsic rewards need

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Speaker 2: to be given merit awards or whatever they are, is

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Speaker 2: just so toxic, you know what. I'm hearing the gold

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Speaker 2: old hat story and comparing this with Lisa's situation where

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Speaker 2: she's got a daughter like ours who would be the

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Speaker 2: gold standard but just hasn't been picked. And I'm thinking, well, that's.

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Speaker 3: Well, the justification is you can't give everyone one, right?

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, because then the people come out of the

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Speaker 2: woodwork saying, oh, you know, kids, these days everyone gets

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Speaker 2: a prize. Can't have everyone getting a prize.

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Speaker 3: We can only give two awards this term, which.

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Speaker 2: I just think is and gosh. But I'm thinking about

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Speaker 2: the kids that don't get it. Not only the kids

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Speaker 2: who like ours or like Lisa's child, who have done

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Speaker 2: really well, but there are practical or logistical reasons why

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Speaker 2: they're not being awarded the gold hat or the gold

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Speaker 2: star or the merit award. But I'm thinking about the

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Speaker 2: kid who has a lousy day at school, or comes

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Speaker 2: from a family that is disadvantaged or struggling, or has

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Speaker 2: ADHD or is on the spectrum, or a kid who

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Speaker 2: for whatever reason is just not doing that well at

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Speaker 2: school and every single day he and it's usually a boy,

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Speaker 2: sometimes it's a girl, but statistically it's more likely to

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Speaker 2: be a boy, watches all the other kids move there

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Speaker 2: there markers to gold, and he or she moves to

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Speaker 2: silver or bronze or doesn't even get to move it

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Speaker 2: at all.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but you could ask any child in a class

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Speaker 3: and they'd be able to tell you who the below

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Speaker 3: the ladder student is, and they'd be able to tell

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Speaker 3: you why, right, you know, and the perception that that

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Speaker 3: creates on that child, and the way not only do

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Speaker 3: their peers treat them.

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Speaker 2: For the teachers, but the teachers possibly treat them. When

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Speaker 2: I talk to teachers honestly about this. I mean, every

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Speaker 2: now and again, I'll meet teachers who are like, oh no, no,

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Speaker 2: they're they're the students that I give much much more

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Speaker 2: love to, much more attention to. And I believe many

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Speaker 2: teachers when they say that I really do. But a

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Speaker 2: lot of teachers have also said my perfect answer is

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Speaker 2: that I do it. But the reality of being in

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Speaker 2: a class and dealing with everything is it's really hard

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Speaker 2: to give those students that need it the most everything

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Speaker 2: that they do actually need. And I just I look

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Speaker 2: at it and I think what this does is that

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Speaker 2: it promotes anger and resentment, which is what Lisa's daughter

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Speaker 2: is experience. Is obviously what ours experience, what the mum

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Speaker 2: that you talked about experience, And any parent who's got

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Speaker 2: a child, particularly a non neurotypical child, would be watching

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Speaker 2: their kids absolutely burn with anger and resentment and a

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Speaker 2: sense of unfairness.

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Speaker 3: Defeat though, defeat, like, what's the point?

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Speaker 2: Exactly, what's the point? And this is why I'm a.

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Speaker 3: Good person and nobody notices me.

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Speaker 2: So what's the point? And kids start to hate school?

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Speaker 2: And it's because of these extrinsic motivators. I've got so

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Speaker 2: many things that we need to talk about, but our

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Speaker 2: time is already running out. This is what happens when

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Speaker 2: you get us it when you get me started on

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Speaker 2: one of these topics. So let's let's take a quick break,

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Speaker 2: and when we come back, I'm going to talk about

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Speaker 2: why this is a problem and what we can do

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Speaker 2: about it as parents, especially for Lisa.

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Speaker 1: It's a Happy Families podcast for a happier family.

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Speaker 3: Try a Happy Families membership, because a happy family doesn't

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Speaker 3: just happen.

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Speaker 2: Details at happy families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers now and.

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Speaker 2: Hope to daily.

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Speaker 3: So once Justin gets off his soapbox, we might actually

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Speaker 3: give you some answers on how you can help your daughter.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm not on a soapbox. I'm on my research box.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about what the data tells us. So here's

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Speaker 2: what we know from research. When it comes to kids

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Speaker 2: who get awards at school every now and again, it's

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Speaker 2: the kids who are standouts, right, the kids who are

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Speaker 2: absolutely the top of the tree. They definitely get their

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Speaker 2: fair share of awards, if not more. And most people

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Speaker 2: would say, well, that's only right, that's only fair. They

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Speaker 2: are absolutely the very best students. But you know who

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Speaker 2: else gets the awards the most who it's the kids

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Speaker 2: that the teachers feel need a boost. But here's what

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Speaker 2: the research shows. You get a kid who is to

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Speaker 2: go back to the gold hat, you know, the gold, silver, bronze,

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Speaker 2: and then the below the ladder thing, the kids who

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Speaker 2: are below or the kids who are on bronze, and

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Speaker 2: then they start getting awards. And you know what, the kids,

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Speaker 2: all including the one who gets the awards, start to think.

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Speaker 2: They think, you're just doing this to make me feel

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Speaker 2: better about life, because I'm not actually very good. But

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Speaker 2: there's this huge co right in the middle that doesn't

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Speaker 2: get anything at all. So it becomes an exercise in cynicism.

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Speaker 2: There's a whole bunch of kids that just give up

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Speaker 2: and say, O, I'll never get it because I'm not

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Speaker 2: a standout and I'm not a child who's challenging and difficult.

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Speaker 2: And then there's the child who's at the bottom who's going, yeah,

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Speaker 2: but I only got it because you're trying to make

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Speaker 2: me feel good. And what ends up happening is it's

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Speaker 2: not just bad because motivation decreases. It's not just bad

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Speaker 2: because the people who don't get the awards feel lousy,

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Speaker 2: like Lisa's daughter or like our daughter. It's also bad

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Speaker 2: because for the kids who really care about the awards,

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Speaker 2: this turns into a mad scramble to defeat their peers.

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Speaker 2: They see their peers as an enemy. Yeah, I've got

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Speaker 2: to be better than them so that I can get

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Speaker 2: the award. And I don't like them because they always

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Speaker 2: get the award. It actually gets in the way of good,

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Speaker 2: high quality relationships.

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Speaker 3: Well, I know that you could talk for about another

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Speaker 3: I don't know three weeks on this topic, but Lisa

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Speaker 3: wants some answers. How is she going to help her

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Speaker 3: daughter deal with this challenge because the reality is she

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Speaker 3: can't actually leave the situation right She's at school. This

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Speaker 3: is the school that they're dealing with. And more times

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Speaker 3: than not, no matter what school you go to, you're

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Speaker 3: going to deal with a system of awards. So how

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Speaker 3: do we help families who are watching their kids get

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Speaker 3: crushed by the award system because they don't get noticed

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Speaker 3: because they're the kids in the middle.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this ties in with what the research tells us. Okay,

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Speaker 2: the research says that awards and rewards teach kids to

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Speaker 2: do whatever they can to get the award, but not

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Speaker 2: actually focus on the process. They're folks on the outcome,

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Speaker 2: not the process. And I guess the fancy way of

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Speaker 2: saying that is that the award is not going to

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Speaker 2: alter the emotional commitment to the underlying behavior, not going

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Speaker 2: to alter the cognitive commitment to the underlying behavior. I

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Speaker 2: don't want to be a good person because it's good

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Speaker 2: to be a good person. I want to be a

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Speaker 2: good person because I'm going to get the good citizen

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Speaker 2: school award. Or I don't want to be to do

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Speaker 2: well academic in class because it's good to do academically.

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Speaker 2: I want to do well to get the award.

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Speaker 3: Well, we've had a few times where the kids have

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Speaker 3: come home and said, so and so got an award

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Speaker 3: for you know, being a good school citizen or whatever,

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Speaker 3: and they're a bully in their school playground.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because the teacher's trying to pump up that kid's

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Speaker 2: size and change their behavior that way. I think that

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Speaker 2: the best thing to do, Lisa is say to your child,

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Speaker 2: what kind of person do you want to be? And

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Speaker 2: does the teacher's evaluation of you affect your understanding of

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Speaker 2: whether you're that person or not. Now that's a really

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Speaker 2: big idea for a five year old or a seven

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Speaker 2: year old to get a hold of. But if we

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Speaker 2: can teach that to our kids. What we're essentially saying

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Speaker 2: is the teachers giving out awards. But do we care

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Speaker 2: what the teacher thinks? Or do we care what we

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Speaker 2: think and what our friends think and what our family thinks?

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Speaker 2: Who do I wantry?

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Speaker 3: I know I was a five year old and a

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Speaker 3: seven year old my teacher was more important to me

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Speaker 3: than my parents. At some point I knew more than

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Speaker 3: that my parents didn't didn't they?

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Speaker 2: Well, in your parents' case, yes.

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Speaker 3: Oh, but my teacher said yes.

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Speaker 2: Set every seven year old ever, I really, I mean,

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Speaker 2: we've grappled with this with our own children. I don't

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Speaker 2: think there's an easy answer except to say the teacher

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Speaker 2: isn't seeing everything. And I'm not interested in how many

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Speaker 2: awards you get. I know you'd like the award, do

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Speaker 2: some emotion coaching. Winning the award would be amazing. What

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Speaker 2: would you do if you won the award? Would it

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Speaker 2: change anything?

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Speaker 3: And then I like that question because the reality is

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Speaker 3: having that award is not going to change a thing.

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Speaker 2: No, you're still the same person whether you win the

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Speaker 2: award or not. So what kind of a person do

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Speaker 2: you want to be? And that's a really hard conversation

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Speaker 2: to have with the little kids, but I think that's

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Speaker 2: the conversation that we need to be having.

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Speaker 3: Well. The great thing is that when you're a good

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Speaker 3: person and you do something good, you feel good about

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Speaker 3: it immediately. You're not waiting at the end of the

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Speaker 3: week to get an award that proves that you're a

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Speaker 3: good person. And if we can help our children to

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Speaker 3: recognize those feelings as they do good things, they actually

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Speaker 3: get an instant reward.

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Speaker 2: Can I just say I think that we need to

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Speaker 2: universally around the country. We need to cancel awards ceremonies,

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Speaker 2: We need to get rid of merit awards. And if

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Speaker 2: you want to acknowledge kids, rather than having the teachers

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Speaker 2: acknowledge them, wouldn't it be great to have a day

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Speaker 2: where the kids acknowledge themselves and you bring all the

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Speaker 2: parents in from class one B or one A or

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Speaker 2: three G or whatever the class is called, and they

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Speaker 2: have a day where they get to show to their

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Speaker 2: parents or to the school community what they're proud of

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Speaker 2: about themselves.

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Speaker 3: Oh I love that idea.

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Speaker 2: Maybe they've learned how to train a dog to walk

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Speaker 2: on its hind legs, or maybe they've learned how to

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Speaker 2: program a computer, or how to build this or do that.

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Speaker 2: And imagine if they could show up in front of

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Speaker 2: the class and show everybody what they're proud of the

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Speaker 2: stuff that they do outside school, or maybe it's the

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Speaker 2: stuff that they do at school, But if they could

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Speaker 2: talk about what they're proud of that teachers aren't seeing.

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Speaker 2: We get to see the humanity of the kids. We

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Speaker 2: get to see what they care about, we get to

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Speaker 2: see their strengths. I'm proud of this. I reckon that's

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Speaker 2: going to help kids to feel much better about who

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Speaker 2: they are than handing out these little cardboard cutout that

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Speaker 2: say merit award. Well.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if it's going to catch on cheerwish would,

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Speaker 3: but I just I love the idea of being able

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Speaker 3: to see children for their individuality instead of trying to

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Speaker 3: fit them in this little box that school's you know,

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Speaker 3: silk school curriculum is all about.

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Speaker 2: I'm calling for a revolution. Join us, join us, Let's

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Speaker 2: march the streets, Let's close down the schools so we

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Speaker 2: can get rid of award ceremonies. Lisa, I don't know

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Speaker 2: if we answered your question or not, but what an

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Speaker 2: important conversation. Even if it's just that we're highlighting the

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Speaker 2: the damage that can be done by these awards, Hopefully

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Speaker 2: a conversation with your daughter will improve things a little bit.

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Speaker 3: If you've got a question that you'd like us to

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Speaker 3: have a conversation about, please send them to podcasts at

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Speaker 3: Happy families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 2: That's podcasts with an s at happy families dot com

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Speaker 2: dot you. We might not give you great answers, but

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Speaker 2: we'll definitely talk about the research.

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Speaker 3: We'll have a great conversation, we'll talk.

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Speaker 2: About what's happened with our kids, and maybe we'll give

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Speaker 2: you some ideas for how to make your family happier.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is as always, produced by Justin

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Speaker 2: Roland from Bridge Media, with Craig Bruce as our executive producer.

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Speaker 2: If you enjoy our conversations, please leave a rating and

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Speaker 2: review at Apple Podcasts. It's those ratings and reviews that

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Speaker 2: help other people to find out about the podcast to

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Speaker 2: make their families happier. And if you'd like more info,

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Speaker 2: for how you can join us in our Happy Families

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Speaker 2: membership and get access to loads more hints, tips, tricks, hacks,

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Speaker 2: and whatever it takes to make your family function more

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Speaker 2: smoothly and happier. Please join our Happy Families membership. You

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Speaker 2: can find the info at happy families dot com dot

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Speaker 2: a u