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Speaker 1: The content of today's podcast is for mature audiences. Parental

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Speaker 1: discretion is advised. Australian school students are among the most

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Speaker 1: bullied in the world, with parents who have lost children

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Speaker 1: to suicide warning that they won't be the last unless

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Speaker 1: all governments commit to urgent change. Today. This is the

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Speaker 1: Happy Famili's podcast Real Parenting Solutions, every day on Australia's

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Speaker 1: most downloaded parenting podcasts. We are Justin and Kylie Coulson.

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Speaker 2: The school year is starting around the country either last

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Speaker 2: week or this week, depending on which state you're in,

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Speaker 2: and in light of the tragic deaths of several children,

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Speaker 2: most of whom were barely into their first year of

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Speaker 2: high school, we really wanted to tackle this tricky subject

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Speaker 2: and hope that we can arm families with some tools

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Speaker 2: to help navigate the challenges that arise when groups of

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Speaker 2: children get together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just the end of last year was horrible.

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Speaker 1: The number of headlines that came up, just story after

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Speaker 1: story of beautiful kids who should be with us, who

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Speaker 1: are not. Our family's obviously been affected by the loss

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Speaker 1: of life far too soon, and so my heart just

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Speaker 1: broke when one story after another landed. Studies are indicating

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Speaker 1: that one in six Australian children are on the receiving end,

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Speaker 1: maybe even as many as one in five or one

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Speaker 1: in four, depending on which study you look at, on

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Speaker 1: the receiving end of being bullied in the last few

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Speaker 1: days to the last week. That's during the school term

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Speaker 1: we're talking. We're at the top of the table. I

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Speaker 1: guess that's not a good way to look at this one. Though.

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Speaker 1: We have more bullying in our schools reported than the US,

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Speaker 1: the UK, New Zealand, Canada and other similar Western nations.

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Speaker 1: Seventy percent of kids aged twelve to thirteen. Seventy percent

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Speaker 1: say that they have experienced bullying. This is a big deal.

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Speaker 2: It's probably an obvious question, but I'm going to ask

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Speaker 2: it anyway. What defines bully behavior?

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Speaker 1: I don't think it is an obvious question. A lot

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Speaker 1: of parents get this wrong. They understandably get defensive, uptight,

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Speaker 1: and concern whether the child has a bad time with

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Speaker 1: somebody in their peer group. But just because somebody's had

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Speaker 1: a playground squab or if there's been a one off disagreement,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean it's bullying. Bullying has quite a specific definition,

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Speaker 1: and researchers generally agree on this, which is unusual because

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Speaker 1: most researchers don't agree on too many things. But the

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Speaker 1: definition of bullying is a pattern of repeated, intentional aggression

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Speaker 1: where there's a power and balance, and it comes in

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Speaker 1: all sorts of different forms. So you've got physical bullying,

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Speaker 1: which is the old school I'm going to flash your

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Speaker 1: head down the toilet sort of thing that I grew

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Speaker 1: up with in the nineteen eighties. Or just hitting, kicking, shoving,

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Speaker 1: damaging property, stealing things. That's your physical kind of bullying.

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Speaker 1: You've got verbal bullying, which is your name calling and

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Speaker 1: your teasing and the threats and insults that people spray

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Speaker 1: at one another. You've got social bullying. Social bullying is

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Speaker 1: really insidious. This is the I'm going to tell everybody

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Speaker 1: things about you kind of bullying, and it really really hurts.

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Speaker 1: It's excluding someone from a group, or it's manipulating relationships

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Speaker 1: so that somebody looks bad. And of course, with technology

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Speaker 1: out of the last decade and a half two decades,

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Speaker 1: we've now got cyber bullying, which is using tech two

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Speaker 1: harass or intimidate or humiliate someone. And that might not

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Speaker 1: just be saying horrible things online. It could be posting

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Speaker 1: embarrassing photos or videos and spreading rumors and getting everybody

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Speaker 1: to gang up on somebody online. So that's pretty much

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Speaker 1: where we'd land in terms of a definition of bullying.

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Speaker 1: It's repeated and its intentional aggression in one of those forms.

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Speaker 2: In preparation for this podcast, you sent me an article

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Speaker 2: that was written by professor Michael Bernard. He used to

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Speaker 2: be at the University of Melbourne, and he said that

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Speaker 2: the top three forms of bullying behavior that we see

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Speaker 2: are being made fun of, deberately, leaving people out, and

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Speaker 2: nasty rumors. Yeah. And when I read that, I thought,

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Speaker 2: I don't think there is a single person on the

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Speaker 2: planet who would not have experienced any one of those

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Speaker 2: three things at school at some point.

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Speaker 1: Oh, you totally. I mean this is life, right. Relationships

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Speaker 1: are tricky and people do and say things that are

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Speaker 1: unkind to other people. What we're talking about here, though,

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Speaker 1: is not just that somebody gets left out, or that

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Speaker 1: somebody is made fun of, or that somebody has something

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Speaker 1: horrible said about them behind their back. It's repeated and

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Speaker 1: it's intentional. The intention is I'm going to hurt you.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to make you pay a price. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to make you suffer, and this is the best way

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Speaker 1: that I can do it.

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Speaker 2: And I guess my point is that everyone having experienced

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Speaker 2: that kind of behavior. I'm not suggesting incessant behavior, but

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Speaker 2: has experienced that knows what it feels like, knows what

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Speaker 2: it feels like to sit in that place. And I

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Speaker 2: really struggle to understand why, if you know what it

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Speaker 2: feels like, you would want to inflict that kind of

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Speaker 2: pain on somebody else.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's brutal. I mean, there's one central word that

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Speaker 1: I would use that describes why bullying happens. There will

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Speaker 1: be some academics and scholars who would disagree with this

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Speaker 1: as an assessment, but from my view of human nature,

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Speaker 1: human relationships, my reading of the research, and my own

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Speaker 1: personal experience, as well as what we've seen in our family,

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Speaker 1: and my years of traveling around the country in and

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Speaker 1: out of schools and hearing these conversations again and again

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Speaker 1: and again, my sense is that bullying primarily occurs, primarily,

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Speaker 1: not always, but primarily occurs as a result of a

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Speaker 1: young person's desire for status. Status is an indicator of

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Speaker 1: how powerful you are, and the higher your status, the

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Speaker 1: more people will defer to you. The more you can

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Speaker 1: get away with, the more stuff happens. Status is the

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Speaker 1: primary motivator for bullying.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if I agree with that. I actually

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Speaker 2: think for me, I think it's hurt people. Hurt people,

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Speaker 2: And while social status might be the outward motivator, deep down,

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Speaker 2: every one of these children is lacking something in their lives.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, look, that's fair. It's not necessarily a disagreement like

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Speaker 1: you think that it is. Research from the National Institutes

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Speaker 1: of Health shows that some studies have found that bullying

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Speaker 1: is associated with lower socio economic status, including economic disadvantage

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Speaker 1: sorry and poverty and low parental education. So it can

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Speaker 1: be a desire to gain status and push people around.

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Speaker 1: What's really interesting, though, ask me who is most likely

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Speaker 1: to do bullying, low status or high status kids.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's high status one hundred.

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Speaker 1: You didn't mean to no, Yeah, And so what's really

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Speaker 1: going on here is these kids are basically saying, I'm

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Speaker 1: demonstrating my power, I status, my dominance by pushing you around,

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Speaker 1: by inflicting pain, by hurting, and I'm maintaining my position

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Speaker 1: at the top of the totem pole because if I

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Speaker 1: do this, everyone else will be too afraid to challenge

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Speaker 1: where I'm sitting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when I think about it, like literally nine times

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Speaker 2: out of ten, these kids are at the top of

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Speaker 2: the social ltda. They don't have to prove anything, and

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Speaker 2: yet there is this sense that they need to.

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Speaker 1: So pulling it back to what you highlighted, being deliberately

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Speaker 1: left out or being made fun of or having rumors

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Speaker 1: spread about you in so many ways, and I don't

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Speaker 1: want to I want to be careful with the way

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Speaker 1: that I say this. These things hurt. You've highlighted that,

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Speaker 1: we've already covered that, But when you look at them

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Speaker 1: in isolation and you say, hmm, somebody making fun of you,

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Speaker 1: how serious is that really? In some ways, you could

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Speaker 1: say it's not that big of a deal, depending on

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Speaker 1: what your mindset is and how you feel about yourself

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Speaker 1: and how other people respond.

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Speaker 2: So I feel like when we talk about bullying behavior,

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Speaker 2: there's actually two sides to the coin. There is a

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Speaker 2: need to help children who have this desperate need to

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Speaker 2: be at the top of the social ladder learn what

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Speaker 2: would be deemed as appropriate and I'm going to say kind.

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Speaker 2: It just comes down to being kind kind behavior. But

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Speaker 2: on the other side, we've got the children who are

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Speaker 2: the recipients of this really bad behavior.

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Speaker 1: I would say the victims rather than the recipients. But

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Speaker 1: I know what you mean.

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Speaker 2: I just I don't love using victim like as as

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Speaker 2: soon as we use that word, what we essentially do

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Speaker 2: is take away it is a disempowered individual's power. I

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Speaker 2: get it, and they are being victimized. But as soon

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Speaker 2: as I believe I'm a victim, then I have no choice.

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Speaker 2: And so the second part of this problem is how

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Speaker 2: do we empower children across the country, across the world.

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Speaker 2: How do we empower them to have enough understanding that

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Speaker 2: they can protect themselves against other people's negative behavior.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're really good at encouraging upstanding, not bystanding, that is,

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Speaker 1: having people come to somebody's aid if they're being bullied.

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Speaker 1: We do a reasonable job of identifying bullies, and we

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Speaker 1: do a so so job, depending on the school, the context,

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Speaker 1: the environment, a so so job of what's often called

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Speaker 1: re education. It's typically called restorative practice in schools, and

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Speaker 1: I think there are some advantages to it. There are

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Speaker 1: also some things that don't work out so well. I've

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Speaker 1: seen it done absolutely terribly badly. So let's pick up

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Speaker 1: on what you've highlighted. After the break, I'd like to

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Speaker 1: share five things that we can do to help kids

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Speaker 1: who are being bullied, or who have been bullied, or

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Speaker 1: who may be bullied, to be emotionally strong, to be

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Speaker 1: resilient in the face of of that bullying, so that

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Speaker 1: we don't keep seeing the headlines that we're seeing. Bullying

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Speaker 1: causes emotional distress, It's associated with academic difficulties, physical health problems,

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Speaker 1: and significant social challenges Kylie. In the second half of

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Speaker 1: our podcast, we're going to look at five things that

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Speaker 1: we can do to help our children, if they have

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Speaker 1: been if they are being or perhaps if they ever

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Speaker 1: are going to be bullied.

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Speaker 2: Number one, absolutely imperative. We listen, we believe, and we

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Speaker 2: validate our children when they come home and tell us

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Speaker 2: stories that are painful.

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Speaker 1: If some if one of our children is experiencing pain

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Speaker 1: in a school context, or maybe it's it's sport or

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Speaker 1: little athletes or a drama or whatever it is that

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Speaker 1: they're doing after school, if a child came home and

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Speaker 1: they were not believed when they said things aren't going

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Speaker 1: so well the kids are giving me a hard time,

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Speaker 1: or if we weren't noticing their demeanor as they came in.

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Speaker 1: I can't think of much that would be more damaging, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: more damaging, more discouraging than for parents to not be

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Speaker 1: there with the kids. Fortunately, I don't think that happens often,

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Speaker 1: but to me, this is critical. We can't progress things

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Speaker 1: at all unless the kids know that they've been seen

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Speaker 1: and heard in value, there's some connection, and that we've

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Speaker 1: listened to them and believed them and let them know

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Speaker 1: it's not their fault, like actually be there in the

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Speaker 1: moment with them.

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Speaker 2: We talk about helping our children feel empowered. Number one

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Speaker 2: is all about giving children power.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, totally, So for me, that's it. That's the

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Speaker 1: first thing we need to do. If your child says

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Speaker 1: that have been bullied, just listen to them except what

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Speaker 1: they've said. Let them know that sounds like it's really hard.

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Speaker 1: This is sounding pretty awful and it sounds quite serious.

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Speaker 1: What else can you tell me? And just listen?

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Speaker 2: Number two document This.

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Speaker 1: Isn't necessarily too complex. Basically write down what they tell you.

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Speaker 1: If there's anything online, take screenshots, take photos on another device.

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Speaker 1: Please note, if there's anything explicit involving underage children, be

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Speaker 1: very very careful with what you do because there are

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Speaker 1: laws against it and you could be charged if you

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Speaker 1: have something on your device. It's absolutely absolutely imperative though,

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Speaker 1: that you document what is going on so that if

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Speaker 1: things accelerate, if things are amplified, you've got things noted

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Speaker 1: from the very outset. Just make sure you know where

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Speaker 1: you write this stuff down.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's important that our kids understand and

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Speaker 2: know that if anything anything behavior wise comes up on

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Speaker 2: their screen that they have concerns about, don't delete it

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Speaker 2: before you go and talk to an adult. We've had

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Speaker 2: too many times we've heard or our children have come

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Speaker 2: to us and told us after the fact and there's

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Speaker 2: nothing left.

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Speaker 1: We had a minor skirmish last year that occurred with

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Speaker 1: one of our kids. Everything was deleted and I was like,

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Speaker 1: if you delete stuff, we can't work on this with you,

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Speaker 1: Like it makes it so much harder. So keep documentation,

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Speaker 1: make sure that it's handy, know what you've written, know

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Speaker 1: where you've written it, and make sure that you don't embellish.

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Speaker 1: Just keep it really really simple.

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Speaker 2: Number three, it's really important to include the.

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Speaker 1: School, yeah, or whatever organization is the third party here.

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Speaker 1: So if there's somebody who's bullying your child, whether it's

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Speaker 1: a school or a church, or down at the local

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Speaker 1: surf club, whatever wherever, just make sure that you let

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Speaker 1: them know straight away, Hey, this is going on. We've

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Speaker 1: taken some notes, we've listened to our child, we believe

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Speaker 1: our child, and we want to work with you on

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Speaker 1: finding a solution here.

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Speaker 2: So, going back to that comment I made earlier, hurt people,

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Speaker 2: hurt people. One of the things that I have strived

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Speaker 2: to live by throughout my parenting is the acknowledgment that

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Speaker 2: there are no bad kids. Our kids are all having

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Speaker 2: an experience and life can be really really tough on them,

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Speaker 2: especially when they feel like they don't have choices. You know,

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Speaker 2: parents break up and a loved one dies, like there

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Speaker 2: are so many things that they literally have no control over.

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Speaker 1: Still, I mean, you do this so much better than me.

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Speaker 1: I get very, very frustrated when I see intentional cruelty,

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Speaker 1: when I see injustice, it really fires me up. You

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Speaker 1: do this so well, where sometimes it's just kids being clumsy.

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Speaker 1: They're jealous because somebody likes somebody and that person responded

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Speaker 1: to their friend rather than to them. They're upset because

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Speaker 1: somebody got a better grade or somebody has nicer skin.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've got six daughters, right, We've been through

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Speaker 1: it all, and from my point of view, when somebody

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Speaker 1: is going to be that petty, I kind of get

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Speaker 1: a little bit agitated. You're really great at saying their

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Speaker 1: kids they're learning, they're clumsy, they're struggling with this, let's

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Speaker 1: just give them the benefit of the doubt and support

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Speaker 1: them through it. I know I'm supposed to do that,

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Speaker 1: but as a parent watching my own child suffer, it

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Speaker 1: can be really really hard.

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Speaker 2: And so while I'm not about making excuses for people,

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Speaker 2: I think that it's really important for our kids to

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Speaker 2: be able to take other people's perspectives in the case

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Speaker 2: of severe or bullying in general. Again, I'm not making

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Speaker 2: excuses for bad behavior, but I think it's important for

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Speaker 2: us to all be able to show a little bit

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Speaker 2: of grace towards one another, because when we're not able

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Speaker 2: to do that, life is really really hard.

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Speaker 1: And the reality is there are not that many sociopaths

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Speaker 1: out there. So if a child is behaving in a

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Speaker 1: challenging way, dig deep enough and you'll find out what's

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Speaker 1: going on. It's just very hard to do that, and

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Speaker 1: usually you need to have the school doing that or

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Speaker 1: some other, some other party getting involved in it.

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Speaker 2: Number four, help your children build coping skills.

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Speaker 1: Okay, what I'm going to say now is kind of provocative.

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Speaker 1: It can be a little bit challenging.

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Speaker 2: I've got a few provocative things of my own.

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Speaker 1: Gets back to that whole idea that you were saying

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Speaker 1: that there is no victim as such, that in and

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Speaker 1: of itself is provocative. But I guess, I guess what

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Speaker 1: I would say is this, The way that you approach

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Speaker 1: a situation determines the degree to which that situation impacts you.

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Speaker 1: And if you can help your children to not be

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Speaker 1: overwhelmed by what is going on from a bully perspective,

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Speaker 1: then your children are going to do better. Yes, bullying

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Speaker 1: is bad, but something that is bad is not the

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Speaker 1: same as catastrophic. And if you can cope with bad

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Speaker 1: and not take it personally, then there is a chance

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Speaker 1: that you're going to be able to ride out this store.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Obviously, the more people that are involved, the more intense

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Speaker 1: it is, the more it's following you home, the more

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Speaker 1: it's into every nook and cranny of your life, the

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Speaker 1: harder it is for that to occur. In other words,

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Speaker 1: it moves from being bad in some cases to being catastrophic.

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Speaker 1: But if you can utilize the power to choose that

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Speaker 1: you've got to identify the difference between negative thinking and

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Speaker 1: having a positive mindset, identifying well, yeah, that is bad,

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Speaker 1: but worse things can happen if you've got that intrinsic

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Speaker 1: capacity to cope, can recognize that it's really about them

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Speaker 1: and not about you, and if you can minimize social media.

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Speaker 1: Research shows I'm not trying to be insensitive here. Research

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Speaker 1: shows that a good ninety percent of kids feel like

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Speaker 1: they can manage if they can bring the right mindset

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Speaker 1: to it. I consistently say on this podcast, trauma is

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Speaker 1: not a result of the events that happened to you.

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Speaker 1: It's a result of whether you do or do not

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Speaker 1: process those events healthily or how you process Ye, it's

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Speaker 1: how you process them, that's right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. We've been reading a book called Essentialism by Greg

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Speaker 2: McEwan over the last few weeks, and I've been writing

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Speaker 2: down a handful of his quotes, and when you put

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Speaker 2: them in light of what we're talking about, they're so powerful.

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Speaker 2: He said, when we forget our ability to choose, we

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Speaker 2: learn to be helpless. We can either make our choices

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Speaker 2: deliberately or allow other people's agendas to control our lives.

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Speaker 2: And the ability to choose cannot be taken away or

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Speaker 2: even given away. It can only be godden. So, in

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Speaker 2: light of what we're talking about in relation to giving

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Speaker 2: our children the capacity to cope with these challenging behaviors

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Speaker 2: when they arise, the powerful and empowering thought is I

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Speaker 2: get to choose. I get to choose whose voice I

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Speaker 2: listened to. I get to choose whose opinion weighs most

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Speaker 2: heavily in my life. Is it the kid down the

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Speaker 2: street who doesn't know a bar about me and they've

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Speaker 2: decided to send, you know, some vicious rumors about me?

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Speaker 2: Or is it my mum and dad who love and

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Speaker 2: adore me? Is it my grandparents who have you know,

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Speaker 2: showered me with love? Is it my uncle and auntie

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Speaker 2: who you know have been with me when I've been really,

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Speaker 2: really cranky and they still love me. Is it those

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Speaker 2: people that I spend lots and lots of time with?

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Speaker 2: Or is it the kids at school who couldn't give

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Speaker 2: to hoots about who I am or where I came from?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the great challenge, and you and I are on

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Speaker 1: the same page. Here we agree, of course, that the

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Speaker 1: tremendous challenge is that you can help your child to

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Speaker 1: say I am worthy, I'm good enough, I feel love.

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Speaker 1: I'm in a wonderful environment that's supportive and healthy. But

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Speaker 1: now I'm about to step back into the lions down.

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Speaker 1: I have to go to school where these people are

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Speaker 1: ostracizing me, they're hurting me, they're doing these things. And

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Speaker 1: this is why I mean the snitches. Get stitches is

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Speaker 1: the thing that kids will say, and yet it's so

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Speaker 1: vitally important that they tell somebody, a trusted adult so

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Speaker 1: that action can be taken. Otherwise it really does feel

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Speaker 1: like they're going back into the furnace every single day.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't minimize the significant challenge and frankly, the terror

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Speaker 1: that some kids feel when they go to confront their bullies.

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Speaker 1: Yet again for another day, because sometimes this stuff is

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Speaker 1: really really hard to stamp out.

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Speaker 2: Lastly, number five, the.

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Speaker 1: Number five is get professional help. Sometimes this stuff is

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Speaker 1: just too serious and you might need to go and

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Speaker 1: get help. Kids' helpline is their parent line, is their lifeline?

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Speaker 1: Is there one three double one fourteen? That's thirteen eleven fourteen.

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Speaker 1: If this conversations brought anything up for you where you

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Speaker 1: feel like you need help, Please contact one of the

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Speaker 1: many bullying and mental health services that are available online.

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Speaker 1: You might look at Beyond Blue as well. We'll link

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Speaker 1: to them in the show notes. And you may even

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Speaker 1: want to talk to your kids about it. Tough topic

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Speaker 1: and I really hope that something that we've said will

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Speaker 1: be helpful. There's just there's no easy way through it.

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Speaker 1: But research shows that helping kids to know that they

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Speaker 1: don't have to be overwhelmed by it and that it

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to be catastrophic. By focusing on validating their

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Speaker 1: feelings and then working on helping them to find value

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Speaker 1: in themselves and the things that they do, it seems

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Speaker 1: like from a research point of view, they can do okay.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from

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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. If you'd like more information and more resources

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Speaker 1: about making your family happier, visitors at happy families dot

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Speaker 1: com dot a u