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Speaker 1: But this was offsite. I was encouraging folks to instead

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Speaker 1: of the invitation just being an email invitation to write

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Speaker 1: a handwritten letter, to invite folks to have it like

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Speaker 1: to try and use whatever analog things we can to

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Speaker 1: cultivate a sense of enchantment around how we're gathering.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 2: used by the world's most successful people to get so

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Speaker 2: much out of their date.

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Speaker 3: I'm your host, doctor Amanda Invera.

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Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium,

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Speaker 2: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date.

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Speaker 2: My guest today is doctor Jason Fox. I've known Jason

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Speaker 2: for the best part of a decade, and like me,

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Speaker 2: he is a scientist at heart and has a bias

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Speaker 2: for strategies that are grounded in research. So Jason travels

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Speaker 2: all around the world, although not at the moment, helping

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Speaker 2: leaders from cover such as Microsoft, Sales Force, McDonald's, and

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Speaker 2: Toyota in the area of motivation design. Jase is also

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Speaker 2: the best selling author of The Game Changer and How's

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Speaker 2: a Leader Quest, and in twenty sixteen was awarded.

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Speaker 3: Keynote Speaker of the Year.

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Speaker 2: So this is the second time I've had Jase on

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Speaker 2: the show, and being a fellow Melbourneite, we are both

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Speaker 2: now in lockdown, although when we recorded this interview a

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Speaker 2: few weeks ago we were not.

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Speaker 3: We were free.

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Speaker 2: So in this chat we talk a lot about how

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Speaker 2: Jace has changed the way he works during COVID, and

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Speaker 2: we also talk a lot about virtual experiences, and we,

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Speaker 2: I guess, go behind the scenes of the virtual keynotes

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Speaker 2: and workshops that Jase has been delivering this time, which

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Speaker 2: I think is really interesting to kind of get an

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Speaker 2: insight into that from a speaker slash facility a point

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Speaker 2: of view. So on that note, let's go to Jase

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Speaker 2: to hear about how he works. Jace, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Good to be back.

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Speaker 3: This is so novel.

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Speaker 2: Doing a face to face interview. I want to say,

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Speaker 2: it's been four or five months since.

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Speaker 3: I've done one of these.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah. And we got our social distance too, which is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we are we're separated, I reckon by a couple

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Speaker 2: of meters, definitely one point five meters so yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and you know the room it's definitely there's it would

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Speaker 2: have to be eight square meters.

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Speaker 1: I think the police come back. We're going to We're

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Speaker 1: going to be fine.

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Speaker 2: We totally are, even the restrictions are kicking back in

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Speaker 2: Melbourne where we're recording this interview from so we obviously spoke.

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Speaker 2: I want to say a year and a half, agoy,

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Speaker 2: I reckon, is that right?

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Speaker 1: I don't know time, time is. Time has gone super

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Speaker 1: warpped in these times. You know, this is this whole

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Speaker 1: notion of temporality about our subjective experience of time. I

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Speaker 1: don't even know, like most days, I don't even know

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Speaker 1: what day it is these days. But yes, it's been

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Speaker 1: a while, though it's been a while.

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Speaker 2: And look, something I've been enjoying doing on the podcast

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Speaker 2: at the moment. I'm in a phase where I'm reaching

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Speaker 2: back out to guests that I really love from the

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Speaker 2: past and seeing how have their ways of working changed.

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Speaker 2: And I know that you're always reflecting on how you

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Speaker 2: work and trying to improve and refine, and it's been

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Speaker 2: kind of like an interesting period for you, and that

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Speaker 2: I think you've had a lot of time to be

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Speaker 2: thinking about new things and experimenting with new things. So

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Speaker 2: I want to start by looking at this kind of

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Speaker 2: routines and rituals. I know you're really big into setting

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Speaker 2: different rhythms for different periods of time, and as the

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Speaker 2: notebook falls off my lap, let's delve into that. So

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Speaker 2: I want to know should we start small, like with

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Speaker 2: a day, or should we start big like with a quarter?

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Speaker 1: This is really good, I will just jump into it.

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Speaker 1: I love that point about like that. I do a

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Speaker 1: lot of reflecting. I'm probably do more reflecting than I

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Speaker 1: do actual working, which is good. That's what you'd want

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Speaker 1: a Wasard philosopher to be doing. At the time of recording,

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Speaker 1: it's two days after the winter solstice here, the mid

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Speaker 1: winter solstice. So the sun, sorry, the planet has literally

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Speaker 1: done a bit of a turning point and it's all

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Speaker 1: but around the sun. And I like to kind of

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Speaker 1: thematically attach or kind of ground opportunities to shake up

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Speaker 1: the way that I do things, and so the solstice

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Speaker 1: is a good time to do this. With everything that's

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Speaker 1: happened since the last solstice December twenty third, we've had bushfires,

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Speaker 1: global pandemics, and all sorts of things that have happened.

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Speaker 1: It's been it's been pretty rough, and for some time,

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Speaker 1: like in my own industry, I've been thinking what do

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Speaker 1: I want to do. I don't know. I think I'm

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Speaker 1: having a midlife crisis, or like one of my myriad

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Speaker 1: existential crises is I'm figuring out what the heck that

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Speaker 1: I'm doing. But in amongst this, I've taken this time

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Speaker 1: to kind of pause and reconsider the rhythms that I'm in.

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Speaker 1: And there's something exciting that I'm finding that I'm you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a new thing I'm about to experiment with. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if it's going to work. We'll let you

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Speaker 1: know in a year and a half time when I

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Speaker 1: come back on the podcast. But so here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: We both love deep work. We both love the notion

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Speaker 1: of being really conscious about the time that we protect

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Speaker 1: sacred time for work. At depth, we are very good

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Speaker 1: at managing our distractions. We're very good at having a

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Speaker 1: level of meta cognitive awareness around what's working, what's not working.

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Speaker 1: I know that you're extremely good at, you know, staying

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Speaker 1: on top of sleep, and I tried to kind of

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Speaker 1: have a sensibility around you know, physiological state. And so

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Speaker 1: there's like we're in a pretty good space. And I

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Speaker 1: imagine a lot of your listeners too, after you know,

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Speaker 1: sticking with you for some time, I've probably picked up

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Speaker 1: a fair few bits of insight regarding that. Certainly, what

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Speaker 1: I'm what I'm finding now is there's this kind of

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Speaker 1: I've noticed that I have an allergy, and an allergy

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Speaker 1: is an exaggerated response to something that probably goes, you know,

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Speaker 1: beyond what is normal. So some people have like literal

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Speaker 1: allergies to pollen or things like that. I have allergies

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Speaker 1: to concepts. And so one of the concepts that just

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Speaker 1: flaares my allergies is this word discipline. And whenever someone

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Speaker 1: says discipline, I just like flare up. And there's part

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Speaker 1: of me that, just like the trickster in me or something,

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Speaker 1: just wants to kind of be all fluid and be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: spontaneous or whatever it is. And so recently I was

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Speaker 1: doing this interview series and Information Overload, and the previous

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Speaker 1: person set forth the questions for me, and they've written

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Speaker 1: this article on the discipline and I kind of promptly

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Speaker 1: ignored it because I had the word discipline in it.

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Speaker 1: I since had a look at it. And what this

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Speaker 1: guy is doing is he kind of organizes his week

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Speaker 1: on ten day cycles. And so how this works in

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Speaker 1: terms of a ritual and.

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Speaker 3: Rhythm is ten days, ten business days.

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Speaker 1: Ten days, just ten days. So what he's trying to

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Speaker 1: do is desynchronized from the typical weeks. So he has

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Speaker 1: these ten day rhythms, which he calls a decade because

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Speaker 1: previously a decade would refer to ten days, not ten years.

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Speaker 1: And he would start with a day of absorbing news

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Speaker 1: and like getting a sense of what's going on the world,

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Speaker 1: basically living like a normal person, and then he'd kind

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Speaker 1: of on that day map out what what what this

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Speaker 1: ten day rhythm would be like. And in the ten

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Speaker 1: day rhythm, he would have different focuses for each day.

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Speaker 1: Can you believe it, I've forgot his name, William van

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Speaker 1: Dervek in an event, So the different focuses might be

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Speaker 1: a reading day, and that would be every spare moment

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Speaker 1: you spend reading. There's a different like a play day,

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Speaker 1: a make day, a create day. And I kind of

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Speaker 1: like that because I fall into this trap sometimes of

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Speaker 1: being very optimistic in the morning about what I can

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Speaker 1: achieve and then getting through to four pm realizing I've

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Speaker 1: only done tempercent of my to do list, and I

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Speaker 1: curse my optimism, and I say, this is why you

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Speaker 1: know I shouldn't hope and you know, embrace despair into

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Speaker 1: the night and then reset the cycle in again each day.

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Speaker 1: And what happens in the process is a lot of

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Speaker 1: really good things that I'd love to be doing, like

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Speaker 1: learning I'm learning the tubbler at the moment, which is

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Speaker 1: an Indian hand drum, and there's working on the next book.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of bigger projects that don't necessarily fit

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Speaker 1: in you know, optimized day to day rhythms. Even if

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Speaker 1: you're to schedule time to work on it, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: quite fit as a conscious thing that flares up because

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Speaker 1: I always almost always seems to be other more important, salient,

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Speaker 1: emergent things to kind of tackle. But with this focus,

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Speaker 1: it allows you to say, okay, today's reading day, every

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Speaker 1: spare moment, I'm going to try to read, or today's

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Speaker 1: a make day, every spare moment you can try to make.

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Speaker 1: So what I've done is taken that inspiration. But for me,

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Speaker 1: I can't I can't really fathom desynchronizing from a seven

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Speaker 1: day work week because there's just some things that happen

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Speaker 1: on like I know, on Saturdays, I'm probably going to

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Speaker 1: be you know, there might be maybe a social thing.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I know that on Sundays there's house

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Speaker 1: things to do, like you know, cleaning up the house

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Speaker 1: and groceries and things like that. I know on on

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Speaker 1: Mondays is kicking on. So I've got this, I've got

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Speaker 1: this thing, a seven day rhythm that I love to

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Speaker 1: play with, and I'm trying to link this to the

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Speaker 1: lunar cycle. So we've got the full moon every twenty

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Speaker 1: eight days or roughly, and so that's four weeks of seven.

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Speaker 1: So hear me. You guys can't see this as you're listening,

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Speaker 1: but Ametha gives good back channeling of with a face,

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Speaker 1: express essions and something as so, as I say, in

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Speaker 1: a cycle, it's great to see your reaction. So so

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Speaker 1: here here's what it looks like. As you know, I

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Speaker 1: choose one word each year to serve as as a

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Speaker 1: fuzzy contextual beacon and to kind of do a lot

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Speaker 1: of heavy lifting amidst complexity. And my word this year

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Speaker 1: is barred. A bard is a entertainer, a traveldor. And

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Speaker 1: I was trying to go bring more enchantments. Originally it

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Speaker 1: was about doing more gatherings, but COVID nineteen is put

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Speaker 1: a stop to dash that except for online mode. But

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Speaker 1: so here's what it looks like. I have different modes

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Speaker 1: that I cycle through. So on Mondays and on Saturdays,

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Speaker 1: I'm in barred mode, and this is where I am

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Speaker 1: outward looking. I'm more social. On Mondays, I kind of

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Speaker 1: do a lot of online social stuff like that is

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Speaker 1: the one day that I do social media. I don't

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Speaker 1: really like social media, but if I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: paying attention, I'm finding I'm actually finding that there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of sense to be found some folks on Twitter

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Speaker 1: in terms of a sense making thing. I'm finding it's

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Speaker 1: useful to dip in there, but I don't want to

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Speaker 1: be subsumed or drowned in it, so I try to

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Speaker 1: curtail it to the day. It's also Mondays out a

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Speaker 1: day I get on top of emails, I interact with

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Speaker 1: folks as socializing in Internet sense. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I'm

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Speaker 1: in wizard mode, and that is where I embrace the

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Speaker 1: disposition of someone who's prioritizing intellectual pursuits. And so this

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Speaker 1: is like deep work, but it's allowing myself to stay

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Speaker 1: in deep work beyond the deep work session, well not

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Speaker 1: really beyond I'll do the deep work, but then I

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Speaker 1: might have queued up some I need to read some

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Speaker 1: nonfiction things, or I need to kind of do some

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Speaker 1: more highlighting there. So I'm kind of I'm staying in

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Speaker 1: the zone as much as possible. And what it also

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Speaker 1: means is if people are trying to schedule social things

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Speaker 1: or going out to dinner on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursdays or

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Speaker 1: whatever it is, I'm probably more likely to summon the lofty,

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Speaker 1: arrogant hermit like wizard mode and decline Fridays and Sundays

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Speaker 1: my druid days and a driviid. And this is, for

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Speaker 1: want of a better term, as someone who's very connected

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Speaker 1: to nature, very in tune into the rhythms and flows,

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Speaker 1: and it's probably more likely to emphasize maintenance activities instead

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Speaker 1: of making or socializing. So on Fridays, I'll make sure

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Speaker 1: I get some extended time in nature, Kim, and I

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Speaker 1: might go for a hike or something. I'll also I

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Speaker 1: would also, you know, tie up blue sands and just

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Speaker 1: do good restorative, rejuvenative activities. And on Sunday that's kind

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Speaker 1: of like a home day, like where I'm just consciously

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Speaker 1: at home, reading, pottering away in the garden, cooking and

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Speaker 1: doing things like that. And I'm finding that, in addition

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Speaker 1: to all the savvy stuff when it comes to productivity

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Speaker 1: and deep work, having these thematic overlays to the week

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Speaker 1: allows me to embrace different dispositions. That means that when

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Speaker 1: it comes to you know, super deep work, yeah, Tuesdays

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Speaker 1: on Thursday is going to happen. When it comes to socializing,

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Speaker 1: I can kind of say, oh, sorry, I can't do

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Speaker 1: it today, but how about we catch up on Saturday,

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Speaker 1: or how about on Monday and so on and so

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Speaker 1: and then there's there's two other elements coming back to

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Speaker 1: the moon. On a new moon, which is where it's

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Speaker 1: the darkest moon, I go into trickster mode, and that

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Speaker 1: is a trickster mythologically is someone who inverts paradigms and

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Speaker 1: kind of plays with tries to enter a meta rational

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Speaker 1: or transrational perspective to ask the questions, are these things working?

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Speaker 1: You know what's working? What needs to be tweaked? How

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Speaker 1: can we tweak err in destiny in fatim I don't

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Speaker 1: believe in destiny in fate, by the way, But and

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Speaker 1: then full moon I embraced the lunatic element of things

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Speaker 1: that's where lunatic come from, and that's where I go

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Speaker 1: full mode, and that's where I have permission to what

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Speaker 1: anyone who's read Julia Cameron's The Artist Away would would know.

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Speaker 1: As artist states, that's where I just I simply play.

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Speaker 1: I do, I do whatever comes to my mind. And

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Speaker 1: so in this way, I have a kind of version

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Speaker 1: of the discipline that doesn't feel like I'm being disciplined.

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Speaker 1: It feels like I'm being playful. I'm role playing each

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Speaker 1: day of the week as an overlay to ensure that

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Speaker 1: I'm seeing and tending to all the elements of life.

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Speaker 3: Very interesting.

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Speaker 2: I'm fascinated by that and encourage that you didn't go

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Speaker 2: for the.

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Speaker 3: Ten day cycle.

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Speaker 2: I just feel like that would be so hard putting

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Speaker 2: on essentially, like this ten day stencil onto a world

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Speaker 2: that is built around a seven day cycle or a

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Speaker 2: monthly cycle. What I think is interesting. I like how

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Speaker 2: it's very proactive. It's like you're taking control around what

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Speaker 2: is your headspace, your mood, your outlook on the various

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Speaker 2: different days. And I would imagine that organizing your days

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Speaker 2: like that, there's probably less context switching, which is obviously

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Speaker 2: good for output and getting deeper into whatever zone that

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Speaker 2: you're in. But what I'm wondering is, like, how do

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Speaker 2: you deal with the real world coming in because you

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Speaker 2: have clients, and clients are not paying attention to the

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Speaker 2: moon's cycle or your weekly cycle, so are you? Because

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Speaker 2: I find like I'll have my own descent. And I'm

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Speaker 2: curious about the allergy to the word discipline, because I've

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Speaker 2: probably in conversation used the word discipline maybe seven or

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Speaker 2: eight times in the last twenty four to forty eight hours.

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Speaker 2: But like, I find when things get in the way

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Speaker 2: of my routine, worst case scenario is I feel resentment towards, like.

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Speaker 1: To the person, yeah, towards.

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Speaker 2: The thing that is getting in the way, whether it

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Speaker 2: be a meeting or an event or something like that.

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Speaker 2: So I want to know, how does the real world

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Speaker 2: fit with this proact?

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Speaker 1: You love it? Oh, the real world? Yeah, that's good. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I encounter this world occasionally. Yeah, there's kind of the

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Speaker 1: response to the discipline thing. I remember the Simpsons episode

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Speaker 1: where the Simpsons family has this trampoline that they want

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Speaker 1: to get rid of, and they have it out there

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Speaker 1: and they're trying to give it way for free, and

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Speaker 1: no one's taking it, so they have the idea to

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Speaker 1: lock it up, and as soon as they lock it up,

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Speaker 1: when the criminals comes through to kind of pick the

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Speaker 1: lock and then to steal it. It's like this this

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Speaker 1: kind of invert like like whenever I hear discipline, I'm like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: and I'm already thinking about how I can wheezel my

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Speaker 1: way out of it. But if I hear like, you know,

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Speaker 1: complete freedom, you know, and stuff like that, I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we probably want to get some sort of rhythm or

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Speaker 1: pattern or order to it. So it's it's at both

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Speaker 1: and that I'm trying to embraces as it relates to

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Speaker 1: the real world. There's this magical thing that clients can do,

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Speaker 1: and that is to throw money at me, and then

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Speaker 1: I make allowances. So if they're if they're trying to

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Speaker 1: book some work in and they've paid the upfront deposit,

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Speaker 1: then I will acquiesce and you know, but this is

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Speaker 1: again it comes back to it's more dispositional than disciplined.

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Speaker 1: So it's like, what's the perspective and stance that I

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Speaker 1: take here. It's if people are you know, if people

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Speaker 1: I mean wizard mode and someone's wanting to book in

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Speaker 1: a meta facilitate an off site or do a keynote

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Speaker 1: to distributed audience or whatever it is. You know, like

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of harumphing in my mind. But if they're

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Speaker 1: also you know, lovely and I can see what they're

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Speaker 1: doing is good and they're you know, paying the deposit,

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Speaker 1: then I'll make some allowances. And so it kind of works.

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Speaker 1: It kind of just works like that in a way,

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Speaker 1: like I just it's it's like you fluidly move around

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Speaker 1: the things that emerge in life, but as for all

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Speaker 1: the other spare moments on those days, it just means, okay,

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Speaker 1: I know, I kind of know where my bias or

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Speaker 1: where my skew is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So it's kind of like you'll you'll make allowances.

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Speaker 1: It's like having a like a like a it's like

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Speaker 1: principles that like hover around. They allow you to make

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Speaker 1: like that you can check into. So something's emerging on

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Speaker 1: a day and you think, oh, okay, does really fit

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Speaker 1: into the rhythms Because I know from a zoomed out perspective,

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Speaker 1: if I was to look at the patterns of my

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Speaker 1: life over the period of years, I know that I

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Speaker 1: can typically get to the end of the year and

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Speaker 1: think well, you only got out to nature twice and

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Speaker 1: this year, like you identify have someone who likes going

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Speaker 1: for walks in the forest, but you only needed twice,

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Speaker 1: or well, you know, here goes another year and you

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Speaker 1: haven't learnt any music or musical instruments. So it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like that. It allows me to check in with

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Speaker 1: that sensibility from the matter.

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Speaker 3: And I want to know on.

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Speaker 2: A day to day level, where you're you're in bad

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Speaker 2: mode or wizard mode or whatever the mode is for

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Speaker 2: the day. Are you other like morning rituals or routine

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Speaker 2: to almost get into that headspace or mindset.

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Speaker 1: Not so much. And by the way, this is this

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Speaker 1: is I mean, anyone can think about this through their

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Speaker 1: own lens, Like I've chosen some rather mythic archetypes here

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Speaker 1: for this. Kim's done this where she's gone with simple

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Speaker 1: things like read day, make day, play day and things

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Speaker 1: like that, which kind of again like the disposition is

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Speaker 1: still there. As for me, most of my rituals stay

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Speaker 1: the same day to day, Like there's a process of

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Speaker 1: making a pour over coffee in the morning where I

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Speaker 1: hand grind the beans and that kind of centers me.

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Speaker 1: I do my morning pages in the morning. First thing

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Speaker 1: seven to fifty words. I switched back to seven fifty

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Speaker 1: words dot com. My friend Buster Benson pioneered that, and

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Speaker 1: it seems to be optimized to create that beautiful flow

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Speaker 1: state of writing where I just write whatever gibberish. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: some insights emerge. I then segue from that into.

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Speaker 2: The deals, so that that's about like half an hour,

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Speaker 2: typically more about.

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Speaker 1: Twenty minutes it would take me if I'm doing it properly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and what does properly mean?

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Speaker 2: Like for those that are not familiar with the concept

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Speaker 2: of morning pages.

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Speaker 1: So morning Pages is Julia Cameron who wrote a book

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Speaker 1: called The Artist's Way, which is a book on creative recovery.

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Speaker 1: It's the morning Pages is kind of a wa for

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Speaker 1: me personally. Other people might have other experiences of it.

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Speaker 1: It's a way of I don't necessarily do meditation very well.

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Speaker 1: I don't sit if I will if I see I'm

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Speaker 1: not really I'm more doing a contemplative practice than a

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Speaker 1: meditative practice. This morning pages if you're doing it well.

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Speaker 1: And by doing it well, I'm talking about writing in

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Speaker 1: a flow like way that's neither hurried nor rushed, but

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Speaker 1: it's a continuous flow. The seven fifty words. Dot com

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Speaker 1: lets you know how many distractions you've had, Like when

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Speaker 1: you're writing supports for a number of time, that shows

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Speaker 1: you a graph too, so you can see your words

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Speaker 1: per minute as you're doing it. It's kind of nice

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Speaker 1: training wheels to kind of encourage that movement and flow.

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Speaker 1: And most days it honestly feels really tedious. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: what the hell am I doing sitting here writing this?

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Speaker 1: I should actually be writing the other things. But what

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Speaker 1: it does is it helps to surface patterns. And I'm

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Speaker 1: in this practice of checking with after I've written my

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Speaker 1: morning pages. I was check in with what I wrote

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Speaker 1: the same day last year, or the year before or

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Speaker 1: the year before that, and it's it's it's it's like

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Speaker 1: both fascinating and incredibly disappointing to see that, Oh, I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm indulging in the exact same narrative. Like so, for example,

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Speaker 1: four five days ago, I was whining about this web

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Speaker 1: developer that I'd hired to help me out with some

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Speaker 1: things of working my personal website and stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: and then I was like, why am I doing them

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Speaker 1: too generous? I kind of ended up paying him one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent of the fees because I was just feeling

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Speaker 1: really sorry for him because all the other things had

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Speaker 1: to look at my thing. I was doing the exact

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Speaker 1: same thing last year with the web developer in the US.

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Speaker 1: I remember that, Yeah, became pregnant with twins. They didn't

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Speaker 1: exit like and this insight gives you, like, ah, what's

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Speaker 1: the pattern going on here? And then you can start

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Speaker 1: inquiring us to what is the unmet need here or

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Speaker 1: what's the conflict of values or the hidden commitments and

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Speaker 1: that might just spark some insights that then translates into

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Speaker 1: the different way that you might approach your day, or

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Speaker 1: some different sensibilities that you might surface or left, or

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Speaker 1: at least a more of a sense of wisdom or

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Speaker 1: self knowledge.

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Speaker 3: We're saving money on web developments.

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Speaker 1: Possibly I want.

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Speaker 2: To shift gears now into looking at virtual experiences, and

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Speaker 2: I'm really interested in this area. So both of us

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Speaker 2: do a lot of keynote speaking, get involved with a

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Speaker 2: lot of events, and pretty much in March, I would

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Speaker 2: imagine all your bookings or my bookings were canceled or postponed,

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Speaker 2: as were my teams. Probably similar for you, very weird time.

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Speaker 2: But then gradually, I'd say over the last two to

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Speaker 2: four months, there's been this huge amount of virtual events

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Speaker 2: and experiences that you know, both of us respectively have

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Speaker 2: probably been asked to deliver and facilitate. And I want

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Speaker 2: to know how you're thinking about these things and maybe

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Speaker 2: sort of really practical note, what are some of the

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Speaker 2: things that you've been trying and that have been working,

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Speaker 2: and equally, what are some things that maybe haven't been working.

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Speaker 2: So let's let's maybe start with, Yeah, what are some

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Speaker 2: of the things that you've been experimenting with? And I

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Speaker 2: don't know if we want to break this down into

432
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,720
Speaker 2: keynotes versus workshops.

433
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe we'll peek in this. So let's go with

434
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 1: the things that I don't just in general, like things

435
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 1: that I don't think are working. So well, let's do that.

436
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: I kind of during all the hustle and everything of

437
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 1: that time, I just kind of took a back seat.

438
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: There's some folks that are really looking forward that this

439
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,400
Speaker 1: landscape kind of requires a reimagining, as some companies are

440
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 1: considering maybe no one needs to come back to the

441
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 1: office and maybe everyone's going to be working from home.

442
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: There there's some big questions that brings up around what

443
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 1: does it mean? I mean if an event simply about

444
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: exchanging information. There are much better ways of doing that.

445
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: There's collaboration software out there that does that infinitely better.

446
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 1: And so it brings back to the question why we

447
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: gather and and you know, and what the world might

448
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: look like with regards to gatherings in the future. And

449
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: I think there's this introm phase that many folks are

450
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 1: going through right now where they investing in a heap

451
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: of production stuff like the best cameras, the best microphones,

452
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 1: the best lighting and all this like whiz bang stuff,

453
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 1: which is beautiful, beautifully misses the point. Like it it

454
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 1: just eclipses the point. It's like it's nice, it's great,

455
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 1: it's nice to have, but like it misses the point

456
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: of gatherings. And so what I've seen not working so well.

457
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 1: It's highly orchestrated, overly produced, almost like static video productions

458
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: where you're having a bunch of people passively watch a

459
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: video streaming on you know, via zoom thing. And it

460
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: just the potential of what we're seeing now. And I

461
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 1: just facilitated an online off site last week, and even

462
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 1: though it's in many ways more work than gathering in

463
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 1: the real life, and you don't get all the intangible

464
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 1: benefits of hanging out in the room together and staying

465
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: at the bar late at night and doing things that

466
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 1: it Also, this online mode opens up new levels of participation,

467
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 1: like there are gradients of participation, So for really introverted folks,

468
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: I'm seeing much more diversity of voices and perspectives and

469
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: inputs and an online event because you've got the chat thread.

470
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: The chat thread becomes like a cheeky back channel where

471
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: you know, if you're cultivating it in a nice way

472
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 1: and not trying to be too professional serious, some really

473
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 1: good perspectives and questions and insights can emerge.

474
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 2: I want to just pause them and dig into that

475
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 2: a bit deeper, like how do you what are your

476
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 2: tricks go? I feel like you've got good tricks and

477
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 2: good kind of provocative questions to elicit good and interesting

478
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 2: questions and comments from.

479
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: Oh, this is a great question. I love it. It's

480
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: so nice to you know, compare notes for another facilitator,

481
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: and I'd be keen to hear yours as well, because

482
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: like this is still new territory, so the program itself,

483
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: like a lot of this comes into program design, and

484
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 1: that the key thing that many clients will have because

485
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: they're so nerve, they'll want control, they'll want to fill

486
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 1: things with content. They're like, want to know what's going

487
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 1: to happen, who's speaking when, they want to come up

488
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: the Excel run sheet down to the last minute around

489
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: who's doing what, And I'll just feel like some hollow

490
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 1: orchestrated performance instead of what we really need to do

491
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: is embrace and cultivate a kind of generative ambiguity, and

492
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: that requires a clear establishment of context. But say this

493
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 1: was offsite. I was encouraging folks to instead of the

494
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 1: invitation just being an email invitation, to write a handwritten

495
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 1: letter to invite folks to have it like, to try

496
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: and use whatever analog things we can to cultivate a

497
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 1: sense of enchantment around how we're gathering. And then it's

498
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,479
Speaker 1: almost like the flipped classroom. Most of the homeworks down

499
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: at home, so there's any strategy documents and PDFs, people

500
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: can read that. And then and then you're hearing the

501
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: kind of perspectives that you don't normally get to hear.

502
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: And part of the charm of this, again counterintuitive, is

503
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 1: I'd be encouraging the sessions to not be recorded, to

504
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 1: be literally you had to be their type thing because

505
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: then it allows for much more real and open thinking

506
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: and draft conversations instead of polished, perfected, you know, bland

507
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 1: safe conversation interesting, which.

508
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 2: Is so counter to how I'm finding clients are thinking

509
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,679
Speaker 2: about it because they're thinking, how can we maximize value

510
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 2: for this investment. We can record it and let everyone

511
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 2: access it. And the reality is I mean, like how

512
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 2: many people watching.

513
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 1: This, like let alone sit through? Like you know, Oh,

514
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: that's the other thing too. I'd say that online events,

515
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 1: you don't want to go for more than half a day.

516
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 3: Definitely not No.

517
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: I mean even with a normal workshop, it's like half

518
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 1: a day's max. But like online, there's an additional level

519
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 1: of fatigue. So we're thinking, you know, it's a different approach.

520
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: But one thing we did last week was we integrated

521
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: a fireside chat. So one of the lovely things about

522
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 1: real life off site. I shouldn't say real life because

523
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: it's now you know, virtual online is still part of

524
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 1: real life. But one of the things about an in

525
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 1: person off site is that there is the conversation that

526
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: happens in the gaps between the programs, what happens after

527
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 1: the dinner, which is where some really lovely things can emerge.

528
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: And so we had this thing where people change their

529
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 1: backgrounds to a fireplace. We had whiskeys and stuff going on,

530
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: and we had this improvised open conversation facilitated that had

531
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: anyone chime in wherever in the conversation meanded as it

532
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: would in real life. And it was a beautiful thing

533
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: for the team to rally together around this. And I

534
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: guess I mean there's lots of nuances. I mean, in

535
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: terms of the actual strategy sessions itself. We used a

536
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: combination of Mirror, which is an interactive whiteboard with Microsoft teams.

537
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: We're going to do use zooms, but at the last minute,

538
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: the chief technology officer said that we're not la or

539
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: to because I don't have the so we switched to that.

540
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: I'm sure the technology of the software itself will change

541
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: and evolve over time, but it's more like, I think

542
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: it's more the remembering that if it's going to be

543
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: about information exchange, if it's going to be about making decisions,

544
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: embrace the asynchronous comms of collaboration software. But if we're

545
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: going to gather people together for an event, it's the

546
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: opportunity to have the rare conversations we don't normally get

547
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: time to have. It's the opportunity to ask each other

548
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: the questions we're asking ourselves and to kind of stay

549
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: in the tension of ambiguity a little bit longer to

550
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: see what might.

551
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 2: Emerge about what what are the questions? How are you

552
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 2: eliciting good questions and comments, or any questions and comments

553
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 2: for that matter. Particularly, I'm interested in the keynote environment

554
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 2: where you might have hundreds of people online. Yeah, and

555
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 2: I just feel like you're very good at making people

556
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 2: feel comfortable and giving them the space to actually think

557
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 2: about what they want to ask. So how's that transferring

558
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 2: into the online world for you or the virtual world?

559
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: Okay, cool, Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, it's a

560
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: great question. I did do something in Holland recently it

561
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: which is so I love the magic of technology, you know,

562
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: the fact that we can beam in too. It's super,

563
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: super wonderful. Typically they book in an hour slot, so

564
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: that that time is pretty tight, you know, for a

565
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: stupid keynote. I've had an hour and a half sometimes,

566
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: but our seems to be the most common time for me.

567
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: So that would translate into I would usually telegraph in advance,

568
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: you know, like I guess the arc of a keynote

569
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: would be something like some super salient, making it really relevant,

570
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: giving a sense of the perspective. I usually do Q

571
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: and A at the two third mark. I never finished

572
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: with questions. I always I do questions at the two

573
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: third mark because I want to, like, in a sixty

574
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 1: minute thing, I'd love to allow at least fifteen minutes

575
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: of Q and A, possibly twenty minutes if it's online.

576
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: And the reason is I see that the role of

577
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: keynote speaking in this form is about establishing context, providing

578
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: provocations and ways of seeing, maybe throwing them a model

579
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: if that helps as a framework. But then, like the

580
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: real chum thing that differentiates you know, you and I

581
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: from the many myriad of pool string speakers that have

582
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: practiced and rehearsed a polished presentation that they just hit

583
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: play on and deliver is we can answer the questions

584
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: that emerge like this is the real strength and charm.

585
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: And I feel like there's something so lovely about an

586
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: online event where you have such more of a direct

587
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: connection with that I've personally found. I can't look at

588
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: the chat we know too much whilst I'm speaking, I

589
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: get super distracted, but occasionally I might throw a little

590
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: bit in between and go there, Like there's a few

591
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: things I've done, just a quick aside. There's one thing

592
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: I'd love to experiment with. I saw someone saying that

593
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: we now have the power to pre record a session

594
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: the keynote bit. Give them that, but hang out in

595
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: the chat room with them whilst they recorded version of

596
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: you as speaking and then interact with folks, and.

597
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 3: Like, that's cool.

598
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: I love that. Like it's like we can be in

599
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: two places at once now. So the content itself, yeah,

600
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: hit play and that, but then be amongst it and

601
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: like be chatting and responding to folks whilst you are

602
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: also on screen, and then and then switch to the

603
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: camera of you as you are now and play in

604
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: that space. I love it.

605
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: That's interesting. I think it's also not something I've considered

606
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: until now, but it's an interesting business model where right

607
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 2: now you and I would charge for the event in

608
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 2: terms of a keynote. But it's kind of interesting to go, well,

609
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 2: imagine if we had our kind of you know, four

610
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 2: to five stock standard keynotes that we typically deliver, that

611
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: maybe might vary by twenty percent on any given day

612
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 2: and like the pre record is for sale, but then

613
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: live questions commentary.

614
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 3: That's kind of interesting.

615
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: It would be. I mean, it then kind of suggests

616
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: that we build a repertoire of like curriculum or content bits,

617
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: which would be interesting. I mean, I find that twenty percent, though,

618
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: is just so key for making it seem like I

619
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: don't know. And also, now that I think about it,

620
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: I would be cringing so much at watching a video

621
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: of myself the worst. But anyway, we're going on a

622
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: questions the questions then as the question there's a few

623
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: things I do. I mean, I usually just try to

624
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: soften it up. I mean, I try to demonstrate humility

625
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: early on, even though you're trying to do that as

626
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: an expert.

627
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 3: How do you do that?

628
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: Well, there's some some things like prefre q and a

629
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: I'd be saying that hopefully you guys have been priming

630
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: some questions up. I'm just going to if the platform

631
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: allows upvoting of questions, we do that or otherwise I'll

632
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: have someone locally on the client side kind of choosing

633
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: questions to feed past human So it's like a like

634
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: a community manager that someone there can play that role.

635
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: Then I'll say this is usually where good questions go

636
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: to die, because no doubt there are some really beautiful

637
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: questions here that glimpse into a richer complexity of which

638
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: I'm going to do a terrible tempt at answering. But

639
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: you might be able to offer, at best some perspective

640
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: that could be useful to some. So let's see how

641
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: we go. And that kind of like, uh, I don't

642
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: know that seems too I get really uncomfortable by the

643
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 1: notion of an expert, like some expert consultant, coming expert

644
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,399
Speaker 1: speaker from the outside, getting a you know, tiny bit

645
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: of context and then having all the answers, but to

646
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 1: play in the space said, look, we're going to have

647
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: some conversation off with perspectives. I think that just it

648
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: just like Q and A is a misnomer, but like

649
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: questions and perspectives, I think that works for me. I

650
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 1: like playing with I like like early on the piece,

651
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 1: there's some pretty typical questions that I love. Just they're

652
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 1: almost like hand grenades that I throw into the client side,

653
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,439
Speaker 1: and they're there are things like, you know, if we're

654
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: to do a bit of an anxiety heat map within

655
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: the organization, where where are our biggest sources of delusions

656
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: of progress. Delusion of progress is one of the concepts

657
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: I talk about, and that usually starts to get people

658
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: warmed up around where they see a disproportionate amount of

659
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: time being wasted that doesn't contribute to meaningful progress. I

660
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 1: also like to ask the question what are we most

661
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: pretending or what are we pretending to not know? And

662
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: that's a bit of a paradoxical question, but usually get

663
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 1: some conversation emerging. I then will often and will.

664
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 2: This space, sorry, will this be pre event or will

665
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 2: this be in amongst the Q and a conversation.

666
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 1: I'm pretty skeptical about people's ability to think about stuff

667
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: pre event, like it's pretty optimistic and there's usually drowned

668
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: in like it's the marketing hype of an event itself.

669
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 1: But once we're there together, to plant these deeper, unexpected

670
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: questions and then just to give some time for it

671
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: to simmer a little bit usually then has people in

672
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 1: a position where they kind of want to give voice

673
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: to some stuff that's interesting.

674
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 2: So it's kind of almost starting the conversation by identifying

675
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 2: your problems and frustrations, which is always easier for people

676
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: to identify rather than thinking about questions and or solutions

677
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 2: or things like that.

678
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: Yes, I would say that, yeah, getting that done earlier,

679
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 1: and then in the simmer it's then where people are

680
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: like in that tension and then thinking, oh what about this.

681
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 1: It's like, you've got to make their problems not their problems.

682
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: You've got to make whatever angsts and stuff they're experiencing

683
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: super salient early on, so they're having more time thinking

684
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: about that and allowing more time for a potential question

685
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: to emerge. I mean, when you throw to questions, you

686
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: will undoubtedly get an extrovert jumping into the frayer to

687
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: rescue you from the awkwardness of like sitting there and

688
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: waiting for a good Q and A. But then it's

689
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 1: kind of cool to be playful and say, you know, okay,

690
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 1: that was a lovely rescue question to warm us up

691
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: and thank you for that. But I'm curious as to

692
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: anyone has a spicy question. You know, it's something that

693
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: they're sitting on that thinks this is a bit of

694
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,919
Speaker 1: a zinger. I mean, I personally love these like what's

695
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: saying Like, I'm like, what's something that you think of?

696
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: This might be a little bit spicy. I don't know

697
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: how this is going to land. There's anyone want to toss

698
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: a hand grenade back to me or something, you know,

699
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: And it's just.

700
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 3: Like and will people take that invite?

701
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, totally. You just try to call like whatever

702
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: I'm speaking to an audience. The first folks I'm trying

703
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 1: to win over is the kind of the black sheep,

704
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 1: the skeptical folks in the room, the arms folded type folks.

705
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: If you can kind of win them over, because a

706
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: lot of folks will just be on your side, they'll

707
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: love you and want you to do it. But if

708
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: you can win them over, how are you.

709
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 3: Winning them over? Like what strategies? Are you deliberately using?

710
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: Deliberate pattern disruption at the start? So what doever you

711
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: hallucinate that they might be expecting the path to go

712
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: kind of zag in a moment that takes them into

713
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: a new territory. So you know, if the event is

714
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 1: marketed as a motivational event, I'll say quite early on

715
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: in the piece that a lot of it seems to

716
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: be that the world of motivational speakers is overly fraught

717
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: with extroverted alpha males, a big teeth talk about her

718
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 1: in this concepts like big hereodacious skulls and throbbing targets

719
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: and it's all very linear and all very Look. You know,

720
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 1: I was young and then I dreamed of becoming a

721
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 1: baseball and now I look at me, I'm an Olympian

722
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,359
Speaker 1: or whatever. You know. It's just like that kind of

723
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: just it gets like it's like our few is not

724
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: like that, you know. Yeah, And then in the Q

725
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 1: and a bit, demonstrating that no, we can actually handle

726
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,280
Speaker 1: difficult questions like this is cool. We actually we're enlivened

727
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: by them. We don't want to get boring questions like yeah,

728
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: how are.

729
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 2: You thinking about the first I'd say three to five

730
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 2: minutes of a virtual experience? And I asked because I've

731
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 2: been thinking about this a lot in the last couple

732
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 2: of weeks. So one of the people I invited back

733
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 2: on the show was Rachel Botsman, who I know she

734
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 2: is amazing, Like yeah, and I'd intended for one hour

735
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 2: ish chat to be about her ways of working, but

736
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 2: we ended up spending the whole hour talking about how

737
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 2: she's thinking about the design of virtual experiences.

738
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 3: And it was for me, it was such a.

739
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 2: Thought provoking chat, and I mean, Rachel's amazing, and so

740
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 2: we talked about keynotes, we talked about to teaching at Oxford,

741
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: and a concept that stuck with me from that interview

742
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 2: is this idea that she'll think about the first few

743
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 2: minutes as settling the room, and she'll be thinking about,

744
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 2: you know, from the audience's perspective, they probably just come

745
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 2: straight from a meeting, and they're probably rattled or still

746
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 2: thinking about something, or you know, frustrated about something, or

747
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 2: in another headspace, and so she thinks about what can

748
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 2: she do to kind of create the right state and

749
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 2: almost settle people into.

750
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 3: The hour or so that she's about to lead them through.

751
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 2: So I'm curious, like, how you've been thinking about those

752
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 2: first few minutes.

753
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: I love that It's good you're drawing attention to what

754
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,720
Speaker 1: would probably happen subconsciously. So like, if I think about

755
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 1: what normally happens the first five minutes of a virtual keynote,

756
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: it's like people are still arriving, people are checking in,

757
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: people are downloading updates.

758
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 3: What are they doing during those awkward two or three minutes.

759
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 1: We're hanging, Like we're doing a good hang. I'm like

760
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: seeing people as they're logging in I'm saying hello by

761
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 1: their name. If I'm usually in gallery mode, so if

762
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: I see something cool or something like that, I'll kind

763
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: of speak to the person if they have their cameras

764
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: on or something like that, and otherwise I'm kind of

765
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,839
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'll telegraph this, but I'm just consciously

766
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: I'm saying, this is just philla. We're just hanging for

767
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 1: another bit, and then I'll talk about random stuff like

768
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: like I don't know, whatever comes to mind, what tea

769
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 1: I'm drinking. Like really, it's kind of like observational humor.

770
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: I guess a little bit, but it's not consciously, so

771
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: I'm just kind of I'm demonstrating being comfortable and at ease,

772
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: and I'm kind of foreshadowing some stuff like we'll settle

773
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: into this in a little bit. I'll kind of kick

774
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: off into official modes soon, but before we do, it's

775
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 1: anyone been reading any good books lately or just maybe

776
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: like if you guys are sitting in arriving, just put

777
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: in a word or two into the chat threat what's

778
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 1: your mood, what's your vibe at the moment, see if

779
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 1: you get creative the words too, Like I'd go with

780
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: I'm feeling numinous right now and a little bit zephyrous,

781
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 1: I don't know, or a bit bit you know, phlegmatic

782
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 1: or something, and you just kind of like that would

783
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,360
Speaker 1: kind of like get some people like putting in words

784
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:20,919
Speaker 1: and you're starting to kind of tease in a little

785
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,240
Speaker 1: bit of a chat thread and stuff. Then as I'm

786
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: seeing the words there and saying hey, and by the way,

787
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 1: like the chat thread. I love. It's like the cheeky

788
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 1: back channel like when I, I don't know if you

789
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: guys get this, but when I'm in a conference and

790
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: you get some like I don't know, some speaker up

791
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: there that's obviously has a very high opinion of themselves

792
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: and you know, believes their own bs and they're kind

793
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 1: of they're they're sermoning awave. It's charismatically and confidently. I

794
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 1: love sitting on the table where you get the people

795
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 1: kind of muttering to each other and passing notes. And

796
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: that's what I want this chat window to be. So

797
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: at any point in time, if you're seeing anything, if

798
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: you think there's any things, or even if you want

799
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: to throw in a reference or a different perspective, do it.

800
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: Because this is all of us this is our event together,

801
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm kind of as much as possible

802
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: just trying to communicate ease and decenter myself from it

803
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: and to see this as more of I'm a provocateur

804
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 1: and this kind of shared experience together and.

805
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 3: Kind of remove the higher rch.

806
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally, Yeah, I like that.

807
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 3: I like that.

808
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,240
Speaker 2: I'm going to think about incorporating that into what I'm doing.

809
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 2: But before we kind of like shift into the final

810
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 2: thing that I want to talk about, is there anything

811
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 2: that like we have it We've obviously I feel like

812
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 2: we've just skimmed the surface really on virtual events. But

813
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 2: anything that you have been like this is a killer strategy.

814
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 2: I've discovered this, this is working for me.

815
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 1: No, not yet. I feel like we're all still stumbling

816
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 1: in their space. My hope so are with all this stuff.

817
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 1: Is that Number one, we're going to get so much

818
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 1: more savvier at collaborating and working in distributed teams, like

819
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 1: it just makes sense distributed cognition, like we can actually

820
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 1: we can do this. Secondly, I think it would make

821
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: like I'd love to think that we're going to be

822
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 1: much more conscious and intentional about when we do gather

823
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 1: in person we're going to be like, okkay, if we

824
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: do need to bring people together, what are we going

825
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: to do? No, we're not just going to choke the

826
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: meeting up with all this content. Maybe like how are

827
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: we going to make the most of this experience? So

828
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 1: therefore we're going to see more enchantment, more more of

829
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: a sense of, I don't know, stepping into more of

830
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: the complexity of emergence when we gather people together. And

831
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: the third thing is, I'm pretty sure that we're going

832
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: to get good at doing these online events in a

833
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: way Like I guess, I guess there's not really a

834
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 1: killer strategy, But I guess something that I'm really loving

835
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: about the online event context is it's different to a

836
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: real life one in that the pomp and the ceremony

837
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,439
Speaker 1: is pretty much stripped away, and so therefore we're down

838
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: to a bunch of folks. We're all sitting behind our computers,

839
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: and it kind of allows true thought, knowledge, thought leadership,

840
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: or true knowledge to kind of emerge. Like it's like

841
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: all the Haler tricks that happen with the you know,

842
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 1: the presenter skills and stuff like that. You know, there's

843
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: still an element there in terms of shaping the messaging,

844
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: but I just feel like we get closer to enabling

845
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: real curiosity to flourish. And so it's not really an

846
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:17,399
Speaker 1: answer to your question, but there are some things I'm

847
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: hopeful for and it's going to be emerging this space.

848
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, cool.

849
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 2: Well, what I want to kind of finish, which is

850
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 2: talking about apps and gadgets. I feel like there are

851
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 2: a few people in my life who I know are

852
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 2: always going to have amazing tech recommendations for me, and

853
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 2: you are definitely one of those people. I feel like

854
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 2: most times we would catch up if it's like a

855
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 2: bit of a like work chit chat catch up. I've

856
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 2: discovered a new app that I'm very excited to try,

857
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:49,879
Speaker 2: so I.

858
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 3: Want to know for you.

859
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 2: And even just before we started recording, you was showing

860
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 2: me your new iPad and what are they called a

861
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 2: magic keyboard? Yeah? Yeah, oh my gosh, Like, what an

862
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 2: amazing typing experience.

863
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,399
Speaker 3: I'm loving that so good, so good.

864
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: You know what I love about that experience too, is

865
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 1: it doesn't translate to if you're looking at like a

866
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: table of features to compare with other keyboards, you can't

867
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 1: describe the feeling of like the way the key depresses

868
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: and the sound like the gentle soft sound of it,

869
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,919
Speaker 1: and they's just the feeling of it. It's just it's

870
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 1: it's beautiful. And there's a quote from Scott Belski wrote

871
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: Making Ideas Happen and what is it?

872
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:27,439
Speaker 3: The middle?

873
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 1: The messy middle, and whereas in Making Ideas Happen he

874
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: was talking about how we'll naturally gravitate to tools that

875
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: we find esthetically pleasing, so like we'll use a good journal,

876
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: we'll use our favorite pen, we use a keyboard like this,

877
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 1: and so yeah, so when you when you tried it

878
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: and you could, you know, I saw that experience in you.

879
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, this is so good. You're the technology

880
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 1: person for me. By the way, I was just saying,

881
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: if you're still wearing.

882
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 3: Your my aura, No, I'm I'm ringless.

883
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 2: I haven't won the aura for quite a while actually,

884
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 2: but yeah, I'm I'm marginally less disciplined with sleep at

885
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 2: the moment.

886
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 3: So but also when I'm so.

887
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: You don't want to ruin your stats, I.

888
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 3: Don't want to ruin those stats.

889
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 2: Oh god, I think I was having trouble sinking the

890
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 2: ring and then I just gave up when I moved house.

891
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 1: So cool.

892
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 3: So let's tell me, tell me what.

893
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: You're and what you like the thing. I'm just like,

894
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 1: the thing is hot in the moment and we're just

895
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: talking to you before that, Hey dot com. I got

896
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: my invite this morning. Haven't had time to practice that yet.

897
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 1: I haven't even set up the account, but I'm very

898
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: excited by I'm.

899
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 2: So, I'm so excited about hay dot com. And just

900
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 2: for people that don't know about hay dot com, which

901
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 2: I mentioned is probably a lot of listeners haven't heard

902
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 2: about it, although who knows. By the time this goes

903
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 2: to air, maybe a lot of people will have just

904
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 2: some context like who created Hey dot com?

905
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 3: Why you excited about it?

906
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 1: Yeah? Sure. So the folks at base camp base camp

907
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,839
Speaker 1: as a collaborative project management tool, but also base Camp

908
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 1: led by a couple of founders that are very opinionated

909
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: in the tech space, and that is a good thing.

910
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 1: They have thoughts about remote work. They've written a book

911
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: called remote they put it read a book called rework.

912
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: I kind of generally speaking, like the philosophy they bring,

913
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: and so the philosophy with this email app is really questioning,

914
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: like you know, there's no trackers, no ads, and all this,

915
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,879
Speaker 1: like the whole One feature I do know of is

916
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 1: that there's a screener, and so the first time anyone emails,

917
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: you get to choose do you want to hear from

918
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: this person or not? And it just seems like one

919
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: of those obviously hack on this is hasn't always been

920
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: the case, because I just get all sorts of sneaky

921
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: news letter sign ups that I don't remember ever signing

922
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: up for a period in my other inbox, so probably

923
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 1: we need to check in there. I mean, I did

924
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 1: use Superhuman, I'm still using Superhuman, but I'm finding like

925
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: I'm just not using it as much as I thought

926
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 1: I would, which is interesting. So see what hayes like.

927
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: The main things I want to talk to you at

928
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 1: the moment is, I don't know if anyone's talk to

929
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: you about roam research yet.

930
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 2: You have mentioned this to me, but I haven't gone

931
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 2: down and explored it.

932
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,400
Speaker 1: Well, the wait list is I think, I don't know.

933
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: I think it's open now or the wayless is that?

934
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: But Rome is.

935
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 3: And how do we spell that R A M.

936
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 1: Like I'm roaming around the place Rome Research. It's and

937
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 1: then now there's another another thing called Obsidian dot MD

938
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 1: so obscenian, like the rock obsidian stone. It's a I've

939
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: never heard of a this is what dwarfs mine and

940
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: the deepest, darkest things not mytheral. Okay, So the thing

941
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: about these is like there's a school of thought that

942
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 1: we've been mired in for most of time, which has

943
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,880
Speaker 1: been the ever note or the notion camp, where if

944
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 1: you're doing knowledge management, you're sorting things out into categories,

945
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: you're creating hierarchies and all that Rome is more of

946
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: an emergent structure. It allows you to use bidirectional links,

947
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: which means you link to a word or a phrase

948
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: and the links go two ways. Kind of hard to describe,

949
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: much easier to experience. But for anyone who feels like

950
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: that most knowledge management tools are too structured and too ordered,

951
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 1: they might enjoy this type of approach, which means you

952
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,760
Speaker 1: can just start collecting notes anywhere, start being super messy

953
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:16,439
Speaker 1: in your knowledge management process, and then patterns will start

954
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 1: to surface and start to emerge. So that's exciting me.

955
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 2: What about note taking Because when I did a little practice,

956
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:23,240
Speaker 2: was that bear?

957
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: No, that was ia writer. That was actually what I

958
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 1: was going to say, but I decided to dis dismiss it.

959
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 3: No, no, no share because that was not.

960
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 1: So Ia Writer and Ulysses ia Writer. That's right. I

961
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 1: actually really love ulysses so Ulysses a similar app. Both

962
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 1: of them are wonderful. They're minimalist writing apps, and the

963
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: beautiful thing about it is on the iPad at least

964
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: also and on the laptop itself, you can actually just

965
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: go full screen and as you're writing, you can even

966
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 1: choose a focus mode, which means that the sentence that

967
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: you're writing is highlighted, but everything else is kind of

968
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 1: grayed out. And for those of us that kind of

969
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 1: right in medium to long form, it's such a beautiful experience.

970
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,879
Speaker 1: So I'm enjoying that. But otherwise most of the other

971
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: things are kind of fairly disorganized and chaotic. But I've

972
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 1: kind of got this elegant sufficiency with a few apps

973
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:15,879
Speaker 1: that I use.

974
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:16,720
Speaker 3: Awesome.

975
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:22,240
Speaker 2: I love that, Okay, Jace, it has been enlightening and fascinating.

976
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 2: As always, final question, if people want to find out

977
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 2: more about what you're doing, connect.

978
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:29,399
Speaker 3: With you in some way, what is the best way

979
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 3: to do that?

980
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, it's so nice to hang with you.

981
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: Fox dot Substack dot com is where I'm currently directing

982
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,280
Speaker 1: folks whilst I figure out the next developer for my website.

983
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: So Fox dot substack dot com is where I'm sharing

984
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: the latest of my thinkings. You can find most of

985
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 1: my stuff there and does it.

986
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 3: I'll link to that in the show notes.

987
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 1: JA, thank you being a pleasure lovely Thanks Mameta.

988
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 2: Hi there, that is it for today's show. If you

989
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 2: like this episode, why not share it with someone else?

990
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 2: And maybe you're filling in the mood to leave a

991
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 2: review today on Apple podcast orever you listen to this show,

992
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 2: So thank you if you've already left a review, like

993
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 2: I've had almost four hundred reviews or something like that,

994
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 2: so that is absolutely super awesome, And thank you if

995
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 2: you've done that or if you plan to do that today.

996
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:17,839
Speaker 3: So that's it for today's show and I will see

997
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 3: you next time.