1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: As we know, well, there's been a lot of discussion 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: about this social media ban for those under the age 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:10,319 Speaker 1: of sixteen, and yesterday the Coalition Senator Matt Canavan had 4 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: said that he was unsure if he was going to 5 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 1: support the Albanzy government's social media ban for kids under sixteen. 6 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 1: This well, they've dubbed it world leading policy has received 7 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: broad supporting principle, but parliamentarians have had little time to 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: scrutinize the legislation and privacy has emerged as a key 9 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: concern for the opposition. Now, I've made it very clear 10 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,279 Speaker 1: on the show that I certainly see some real issues 11 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: with this. And joining me on the line right now 12 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:40,959 Speaker 1: is Senator Matt Canavan. 13 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,599 Speaker 2: Good morning to you, morning Katie. Good to be back 14 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 2: talking to you. 15 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, good to have you on the show. It's been 16 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: a while, senator. Now I have seen you in the 17 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: national media all throughout the week talking about your concerns 18 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: when it comes to this social media ban, and I've 19 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: thought to myself, that is exactly what I'm thinking. I 20 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: think that there are a lot of worries when it 21 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: comes to this band. But where are we ash with 22 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 1: it right now? Has it passed through the Senate. 23 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 2: No, it has not to my knowledge, that hasn't passed 24 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 2: through the House of Representatives yet. It was being debated 25 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 2: there last night and possibly again this morning. I I'm 26 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 2: back of it, and it's focusing on the Saturate over 27 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 2: to the Senate before the end of the week. The 28 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 2: last sitting schedule sitting day is Thursday. So look, if 29 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 2: you've got the numbers in the Senate, you can always 30 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 2: do what you want. And as it stands, there is 31 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 2: the numbers to pass this bill. I think it's far 32 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 2: too rushed, and I will be moving amendments to try 33 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 2: and make it better. But it looks like there's been 34 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 2: a deal done. 35 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: Matt. What are your worries about this legislation and about 36 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: this ban? 37 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 2: Lookie, you mentioned the privacy elements that's up there. Perhaps 38 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: one that doesn't get talked about enough, I think is 39 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 2: the blunt approach here, which effectively cuts out the role 40 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 2: of parents. I actually I do support some restrictions on 41 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 2: young people accessing social media. There's clearly arms associated with that, 42 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 2: but I just think that government should be there to 43 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 2: help parents, not replace them. And there is some positive 44 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 2: uses of social media too, and so Florida has had 45 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 2: a similar law go through in the last year, but 46 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 2: they've carved out a situation where fourteen and fifteen year 47 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 2: old children can access or can establish a social media 48 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 2: account with parental approval. So I'll be moving similar amendments 49 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 2: to that that seek to provide an opportunity for parents 50 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 2: to be involved and allow children to use social media. 51 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 2: I think perhaps the defaults being know is a better approach, 52 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: and then if there's good reasons in certain circumstances, kids 53 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 2: of an elderly age, maybe kids with learning disabilities, it 54 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: might be some evidence brought forward to us about that 55 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 2: that with parental approval that could be allowed. I just 56 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: think that would be more flexible approach. The problem, of course, 57 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 2: we've got. Then. Another reason I'm worried and against it 58 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 2: at the moment is how rushed it's been. And the 59 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 2: government has already said that they'll rule out digital ID. 60 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: Now you might have seen that, but the very fact 61 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 2: we're making last minute, on the run amendments of this legislation, 62 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 2: this world leading, as you said, legislation, indicates to me 63 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 2: that it would be much more prudent to take a 64 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 2: breath to bring this back next year. Keep in mind 65 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 2: this bill does not come into effect. Even if we 66 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 2: pass it this week, nothing will change till twenty twenty six. Yes, 67 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 2: the provisions of the bill don't come into effect until 68 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 2: January twenty twenty six, more than thirteen months away. Why 69 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 2: the rush, Well, call me cynical, Katie, but I think 70 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 2: a bunch of politicians here want to look like they're 71 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 2: doing something before an election. That's what's happening here. I 72 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 2: think that's great for the politicians, but it could have 73 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 2: really perverse outcomes for the rest of us. Has to 74 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 2: verify their age, their identity to maintain a social media account. 75 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been wondering the same. I'm like, are they 76 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: trying to distract us from cost of living? What are 77 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: they doing exactly here? And I totally agree we certainly 78 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: need to be looking more closely in the way in 79 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: which things are happening on social media. We've seen terrible 80 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: ramifications to some of the behavior that does happen on 81 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: social media. But I also really firmly believe that it 82 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: is a parent's job to educate their children as well, 83 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: you know, into the harms that can be caused from 84 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: social media. And then I also have worries as well 85 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: Senator that you know, like kids can still contact each 86 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: other through gaming platforms and to other various other ways, 87 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: so if there is a bullying scenario, it's not going 88 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: to totally cut that out. 89 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: Well, exactly right, And it's not just that our parents. 90 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 2: You can have a perspective of the parents should be 91 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 2: in primarily responsible for government, But the simple fact is 92 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 2: less parents are activated involved, who will not solve this problem. 93 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 2: I have no confidence at all that a government bureaucracy 94 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 2: that blanket blunts laws passed in Canberra will somehow miraculously 95 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 2: remove this issue. That's not how real life works. Because, 96 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 2: as you say, my kids are pretty savvy. Same you know, 97 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 2: I just I love this story. My eight year old 98 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 2: Tom end of the day, Katie that issues bluntly told 99 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 2: me she knows all my passwords because she watches me 100 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: when I put her asleep, and she said it very brazenly. 101 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: And you know that's what they do. They are very 102 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 2: very good, and you've got to be vigilant. You've got 103 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 2: to be on the ball. And I worry that this 104 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: approach seems to think, look, govern's have solved it. You 105 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 2: don't have to worry about it. We'll sort it out 106 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 2: for you. You know, not only is it wrong, but it's 107 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 2: also just going to be ineffective because the kids will 108 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 2: find a way around. So we have to use some 109 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 2: tools that government can give us, some default options, some 110 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 2: guiding principles, and then activate parents to play that role 111 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 2: supervisor and ensure that we have better outcomes for our 112 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 2: children when they use technology. 113 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: Well, then the other scenario is that you know what 114 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: happens then if they do find a way around it 115 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: and they're using Snapchat, for example, something bad does go 116 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: on there, and then they're too frightened to tell their 117 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: parents or to tell anybody about it because they feel 118 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: as though they're doing the wrong thing and breaking the law. 119 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: And you know, heaven forbid that they then do something 120 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: really drastic because they feel as though they've gotten themselves 121 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 1: in a city situation that they can't get out of. 122 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 2: It's a good point, it's a good point. I just 123 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 2: don't think there's going to be any perfect outcomes here. 124 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 2: I think perhaps the tendency for political leaders to try 125 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 2: and try and tell people a pair of tale somehow 126 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 2: they can make it all better. But we simply not 127 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 2: gaff We certainly not going to eradicate it from technological means. 128 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 2: We have to find a way of managing it and 129 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 2: minimizing it as much as possible, and I do think 130 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 2: there is a way where a bill here could help 131 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 2: parents do that. And as I say, I keep coming 132 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 2: back to, I'm not against some restrictions, some default provisions. 133 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 2: It's just that this bill is very blunt, it's very rushed, 134 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 2: and worse than just being incorrect, it could be completely ineffective. 135 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: So, Senator, from your perspective, what are your next steps 136 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: in terms of those amendments and what are you really 137 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: going to be pushing for. 138 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 2: Well, I mentioned one, they're the parental responsibility pro finding 139 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 2: a way to put parents back in the bill, so 140 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 2: I'll be moving that. So basically my role is to 141 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 2: try and make the bill better. That's something pretty confident 142 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 2: it will go through this week. That's more inestimation of 143 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: how this is going. I'd love to suggest that somehow 144 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 2: the soaring rhetoric of speeches in the Senate can change 145 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 2: people's views at last minute, but that's not really how 146 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 2: it works. But I can put things on the table, 147 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 2: I can get as much support for as possible, And look, 148 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 2: we have already had a win with the digital ID 149 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: being ruled out. That was something I and others were pushing. 150 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 2: That's something the government has also said. It will over 151 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 2: provide more oversight on the E Safety Commissioner, who will 152 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 2: be responsible for writing how your age will be verified. 153 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 2: So that's a positive step as well as one of 154 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 2: my amendments. Another one, I think all the data collected 155 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 2: to verify your age should be destroyed at the moment. 156 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 2: There are some loopholes which could allow companies to maintain 157 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 2: that data if they get your consents, but we all 158 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 2: know that consent given over online sometimes is a little cursory, 159 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: so I would like to remove that as well, So 160 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 2: I'll push those things. I do think there's been lots 161 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 2: of people activated by this. I've taken some of these 162 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 2: ideas from comments on social media. I've ronically myself, so 163 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 2: there's been a lot of community interest and just trying 164 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 2: to do my job to scrutinize this legislation in the 165 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 2: limited time i've got. 166 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: You know, the big question I've got is like, has 167 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,559 Speaker 1: anybody actually spoken to kids about how they use social 168 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: media and spoken to those at that age. I know 169 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: you and I have we've got kids probably at that 170 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: age but I just think to myself, has the Prime 171 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: Minister sat down and asked them to speak to him 172 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: frankly about it? 173 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 2: Look, I can't speak to the Prime Minister, but it's 174 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: an excellent point. There's a young kid called Leopolizi who 175 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 2: at a very young age, with parental supervision, started up 176 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 2: a political news channel on Twitter, the six news. It's 177 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 2: called Yep, and he does a great job a lot 178 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 2: of people. He breaks his broken stories in politics and 179 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 2: he's now he's now seventeen. But ironically he interviewed the 180 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 2: Prime Minister when he was fourteen on Twitter and how 181 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 2: the Primister wants to ban other fourteen year old and 182 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 2: doing the same. And I've spoken to him about his 183 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 2: experience and how positive that was for his development. As 184 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 2: I said, he did it with rental supervision, and he's 185 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 2: a great success story. I wanted to get him along 186 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 2: to the Senate inquiry on Monday and he was keen 187 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 2: to come along, but he had cool and couldn't make it. 188 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, that's you know, because we've done this 189 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 2: so rush. No we haven't. We haven't spoken to any 190 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 2: children in the Senate inquiry and why not? Why not 191 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 2: have some examples like Leo or others that have had 192 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 2: negative outcomes, if they want to come forward, we could 193 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 2: have had the time to look at those things. And 194 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 2: I say there's no rush for this bill not starting 195 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 2: for thirteen months anyway. That's yeah, we're going to happen. 196 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: Look, it doesn't seem as though it's going to happen, 197 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: And I'll be really fascinated to see how it all 198 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: does roll out and whether it makes a difference or 199 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: whether we wind up in a situation where we've got, 200 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: you know, young people that are still jumping online and 201 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: finding those loopholes and what it's all going to mean. 202 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: Well, thanks for taking interest in it. Great to good 203 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 2: to catch up. 204 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for your time, and no doubt we'll 205 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: find out more and certainly hear more over the coming 206 00:09:58,320 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: days when it comes to this legislation. 207 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 2: Thanks Cady Gay say bye.