1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: Bunjelung Cargottin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os. It's Thursday, 8 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 2: the fourteenth of December. I'm Sam, I'm Zara. A change 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 2: in how Australian workplaces must prevent sexual harassment came into 10 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 2: effect on Tuesday. Now importantly, it will enforce proactive measures 11 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 2: by employers to limit future sexual harassment cases. We're going 12 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 2: to unpack what this all means and what might be 13 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 2: different in your workplace. But first, Sarah, what is making 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 2: headlines this morning? 15 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 3: At an emergency meeting yesterday, the United Nations passed a 16 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 3: resolution demanding a quote immediate humanitarian CEASEPIRE in Gaza. The 17 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 3: resolution is not legally binding. Australia was among one hundred 18 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 3: and fifty three member states that voted in favor of 19 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 3: the resolution. This comes after it abstained from a vote 20 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 3: on the same issue in October. The US and Israel 21 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 3: led a group of ten countries that voted against the motion. 22 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 2: The Arctic region has recorded the warmest surface air temperature 23 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 2: ever according to the Arctic Report Cards. The Arctic region 24 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 2: is warming faster than the rest of the world, and 25 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 2: the summer period this year from July to September was 26 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 2: the hottest summer ever recorded. 27 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 3: American actor Andre Brower has died age sixty one. The 28 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 3: Emmy winning actor was known for playing Captain Holt in 29 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 3: Brooklyn ninety nine and Detective Frank Pembleton in homicide, Life 30 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 3: on the Street. 31 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 2: And Today's Good News. The Geminid's media shower will light 32 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 2: up the skies across the world, Australia included, and that's 33 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 2: an important point over the next couple of nights. The 34 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: annual meteor shower will peak around today and tomorrow and 35 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 2: can be viewed in areas far from city lights. This 36 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: media shower comes from an asteroid that was discovered in 37 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 2: the eighties. The shower is expected to last a couple 38 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 2: of hours and the best chance of seeing them in 39 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 2: Australia will be at around two or three a m 40 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 2: depending on the stage. So Tuesday this week marked the 41 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 2: first time that Australia's Human Rights Commission had the power 42 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 2: to investigate if companies are not just responding properly to 43 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 2: allegations of sexual harassment after they happen, but also taking 44 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 2: proactive steps to protect their employees. 45 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 3: What do you mean there by proactive steps? 46 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 2: So this is really the kind of crux of the 47 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 2: difference in this week to last week. For example, in Australia. Previously, 48 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 2: we've had this conversation around sexual harassment in the workplace 49 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 2: as quite a reactive one. So we've acknowledged that there 50 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 2: are guidelines and many professional bodies have their own regulations 51 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 2: as to how people should behave at work, but it's 52 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 2: mainly been after an event has taken place that the 53 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 2: real power hours of the law come into force, things 54 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 2: like investigations and consequences. That's when we see them after 55 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 2: something's happened. 56 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 3: Or an allegation exactly made. 57 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, so now Australian businesses could actually be investigated if 58 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 2: they're believed to not be implementing specific proactive measures to 59 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 2: limit sexual harassment in the workplace. A really interesting way 60 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 2: I've seen this being framed in some reports is that 61 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: we're moving from this idea of zero tolerance to zero harm. 62 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 2: So instead of not being tolerant of an act taking place, 63 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 2: we're trying to prevent that act from ever taking place 64 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 2: in the first place. Interesting, and so the way the 65 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 2: law plans to do that is through this idea of 66 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 2: a positive duty, and that's the obligation on employers to 67 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 2: prevent harassment from occurring in the workplace again, rather than 68 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: just reacting once it's actually occurred. As to who's policing that, 69 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 2: it's going to be the Australian Human Rights Commission. They're 70 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: going to be in charge of investigating and enforcing the 71 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 2: use of this positive duty in the workplace. 72 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 3: I mean, it sounds very logical, but it also sounds 73 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 3: kind of difficult to make happen. How did this rule 74 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 3: come about? 75 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 2: So the positive duty was legislated as part of the 76 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 2: anti discrimination laws that passed Federal Parliament in December last year. 77 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 2: And then after that passed in December, there was kind 78 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: of this roadmap that was laid out, and I think 79 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 2: one of the primary reasons why there was a gradual 80 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 2: roadmap and the changes this week. Part of that is 81 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 2: to give employers time to adjust their practices in light 82 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 2: of the law, because some of them, including this one, 83 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 2: really do impact the way that employers are compelled to behave. 84 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: So the part of the law that we're focusing on today, 85 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 2: so this idea of a positive step towards protecting employees 86 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 2: and equally importantly the ability of the Human Rights Commissioner 87 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 2: to investigate a workplace that hasn't done. That only came 88 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 2: into effect on Tuesday this week. Okay, but if you 89 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 2: go back even further than December last year, when those 90 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:59,239 Speaker 2: anti discrimination laws passed, the recommendation to introduce proactive anti 91 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 2: harassment measure into law, that was actually part of a 92 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 2: suite of recommendations made by the Human Rights Commission in 93 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,679 Speaker 2: the Respect at Work Report handed to the Australian government 94 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: back in twenty twenty, and that was the report that 95 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 2: found a need for safer and more respectful workplaces across 96 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 2: the whole country and found that this idea of a 97 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 2: positive duty could make a difference. 98 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 3: And kind of zooming out because obviously there is a 99 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 3: problem that has tried to be rectified with these new laws. 100 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 3: What did the Respect at Work Report actually tell us 101 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 3: about the state of sexual harassment in Australia. 102 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 2: So ultimately that report found that workplace sexual harassment was prevalent, 103 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 2: and it was prevalent across all industries' locations and at 104 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: every job level. It largely cited a twenty eighteen national 105 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 2: survey that founds that one in three respondents had experienced 106 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 2: sexual harassment at work in the last five years. Rates 107 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 2: of harassment were found to be higher amongst women and 108 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 2: young people. 109 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 3: So against the backdrop of those extremely damning but i'd 110 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 3: say completely surprising numbers, came this idea that employers need 111 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 3: to be taking steps before an incident, not after. How 112 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 3: does that actually practically play out in a workplace? 113 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 2: So there's not really going to be a specific type 114 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 2: of proactive measure that workplaces need to take. It's not 115 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 2: like a ten step guide that everyone needs to do. 116 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 2: It's going to be up to each workplace to determine 117 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 2: what's best for their personnel. And I think what that 118 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 2: is is a recognition that workplaces are really different and 119 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 2: the programs, if they are to be as effective as possible, 120 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 2: they need to take into account the different factors like 121 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,359 Speaker 2: how big the workplace is, the type of work that 122 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 2: they do. But also what resources and costs are associated 123 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 2: with implementing the programs. As for those programs, what we 124 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 2: do know is they could take the form of education 125 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 2: and training to improve employee awareness of sexual harassment or 126 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 2: the distribution of other awareness materials to workers. Another important 127 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: part of these proactive measures is the measures to limit 128 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 2: incidents of victimization. And in this context, victimization is the 129 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 2: idea of threatening someone in the workplace, and we know 130 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: that victimization can happen in the workplace when someone's thinking 131 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 2: about coming forward with an allegation. And by consciously addressing 132 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 2: victimization at work, it's hopes that more people feel comfortable 133 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 2: to come forward and lodger complaint. 134 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 3: I don't mean to sound cynical, but we're talking here 135 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 3: about private companies being made to take proactive steps, some 136 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 3: that have deeply ingrained cultures, you know, huge companies. How 137 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 3: does something like that actually get enforced. 138 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 2: Well, that's the task ahead of the Human Rights Commission, 139 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 2: And what they've said is that they can't just pick 140 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 2: a business and order the business. They have to investigate 141 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 2: a business on a reasonable suspicion that a breach has happened. 142 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 2: And the way that they're going to gather whether there's 143 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: a reasonable suspicion of a breach. Could be from a 144 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: number of avenues. It could be from a complaint from 145 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 2: an employee to the Human Rights Commission. It doesn't have 146 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 2: to necessarily even be an employee. It could be another individual, 147 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: or it could be under a referral from another public agency. Interestingly, 148 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 2: they also specified that media reports about a business could 149 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 2: also lead to an investigation being commenced. 150 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 3: Was there any clarification around business sizes, like does this 151 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 3: equally apply to a business, say of our size where 152 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 3: we've got just under twenty people, the same as it 153 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 3: would you know, one of the big four. 154 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 2: It equally applies to every business, but the expectation on 155 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 2: what proactive steps need to have been taken is different. 156 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 2: And that's where that admission comes in of you know, 157 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 2: ways of small business and not expected to have as 158 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 2: thorough or. 159 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 3: Without an HR department. 160 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 2: But nor would we need to have recommendations on how 161 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 2: to act on a building site if we don't have 162 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 2: a building site as part of our business. So that's 163 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 2: where they'll beat that kind of personalization and discretion applied. 164 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 2: I would say that there is a higher expectation the 165 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 2: bigger the company, it's about how much resources they have available. 166 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 3: I think it's definitely an interesting conversation. I think it 167 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 3: also goes to this idea that we as a society 168 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 3: are moving more towards prevention. You know, things like affirmative consent, 169 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 3: positive duty, all of these concepts about really trying to 170 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 3: minimize the harm before it happens, not taking steps after 171 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 3: it already has happened. Definitely one to keep an eye on. 172 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 3: And Sam, thanks for explaining. 173 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: That's all I've got time for on today's edition of 174 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: the Daily ODS. I hope everyone's getting through the week 175 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 2: as we head towards the end of the year. We'll 176 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 2: be back again in your years tomorrow morning. Until then, 177 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 2: have a great day.