WEBVTT - Why some big brands pay no tax

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this is this is the.

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<v Speaker 2>Daily, This is the daily. Ohs oh, now it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning and welcome to the Daily os Is Tuesday,

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<v Speaker 2>the seventh of October. I'm Billie fit Simon's. I'm Sam Kauzlowski, Netflix,

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<v Speaker 2>AGL and Virgin Australia. What do these companies have in common? Well,

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<v Speaker 2>they generate hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue each year,

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<v Speaker 2>but they paid no company tax in the twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 2>three twenty four financial year. That's according to the Australian

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<v Speaker 2>Tax Officers Annual Corporate Tax Report released last week. So

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<v Speaker 2>how can this be? We will break down everything you

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<v Speaker 2>need to know in today's podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>This topic, Billy, has always fascinated me because it's not

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<v Speaker 1>actually even unique to Australia. There are large corporations all

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<v Speaker 1>over the world. Every year or so a story comes

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<v Speaker 1>out that they paid no corporate tax, and there's this

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<v Speaker 1>question of how can you bring in this much money

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<v Speaker 1>and not pay tax when you and I pay income

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<v Speaker 1>tax and we have an understanding of tax rates, So

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<v Speaker 1>why don't we start by exploring the differences though, between

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<v Speaker 1>the tax that you and I pay, which is individual

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<v Speaker 1>tax and company tax rates.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, so we all know. You know what tax is.

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<v Speaker 2>The most familiar one for all of us would be

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<v Speaker 2>the pay as you go tax that comes out of

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<v Speaker 2>our paycheck every cycle.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's what.

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<v Speaker 2>Employees pay the government. But what we're talking about today

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<v Speaker 2>is what employers pay the government in tax. So that's

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<v Speaker 2>the companies and it's called company tax. But the thing

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<v Speaker 2>about company tax is that the businesses only need to

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<v Speaker 2>pay tax on profits. So it's not what they earn

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<v Speaker 2>in revenue each year, it's what they earn in profit.

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<v Speaker 1>So if they take away the dollar figure, that's the

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<v Speaker 1>expenses that they laid out that financial year, and they

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<v Speaker 1>take that number away from the revenue number, that cream

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<v Speaker 1>on the top is the profit exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And so what's interesting, and I think what is quite

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<v Speaker 2>controversial every time this topic comes up, is that you

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<v Speaker 2>could have a company that is earning hundreds of millions

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<v Speaker 2>of dollars in revenue every year, but if the company

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<v Speaker 2>isn't earning a profit, once it takes into account how

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<v Speaker 2>much it costs to run the company, that's when they

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<v Speaker 2>don't need to pay any company tax. In Australia, and

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<v Speaker 2>another thing in Australia, which is kind of recent it

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<v Speaker 2>only came about during COVID, is that Australia lets companies

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<v Speaker 2>carry forward losses into future years. And so what that

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<v Speaker 2>means is that a big loss in one year could

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<v Speaker 2>be spread out to reduce tax to zero over several years.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's play that out. So let's say that you

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<v Speaker 1>lost one hundred dollars in year one, and in the

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<v Speaker 1>second year you made one hundred dollars. You could say

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<v Speaker 1>to the tax office that in that second year you

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<v Speaker 1>actually broke even, Yes, because you'd lost one hundred dollars

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<v Speaker 1>the year before. You're carrying that forward and using it

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<v Speaker 1>to deduct from those beautiful profits you made in the

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<v Speaker 1>second year, exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And so it's kind of like a tax loophole, but

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<v Speaker 2>also not because it's very legal.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's above board.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And there are lots of these kind of rules,

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<v Speaker 2>like the carry forward rule, that allow companies to structure

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<v Speaker 2>their affairs in such a way that they pay little

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<v Speaker 2>or no tax for many years. I think one thing

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<v Speaker 2>that you can compare it to is tax deductions for

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<v Speaker 2>individuals for employees. Think of it like that. But obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>once you're dealing with hundreds of millions of dollars. It's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot more complex and there are so many more

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<v Speaker 2>different rules that apply. And I think what's important to

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<v Speaker 2>remember is that there's no suggestion that any of these

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<v Speaker 2>big companies have done anything wrong by not paying company tax.

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<v Speaker 2>It's completely allowed. But I think it's something that not

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<v Speaker 2>many people know about, so it's just a great literacy

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<v Speaker 2>angle for us to explain.

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<v Speaker 1>And the other important bit of this chat is to

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<v Speaker 1>remember that we're not talking about companies paying no tax

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<v Speaker 1>at all across the board. We're talking about the company

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<v Speaker 1>tax on profits, but companies still pay other taxes like

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<v Speaker 1>payroll tax or GST.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes. I have to admit when I first learned about

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<v Speaker 2>this many years ago, and I was like, oh my god,

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<v Speaker 2>companies are paying no tax. What the hell? Yeah, And

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<v Speaker 2>I was so confused about that. But yes, it's important

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<v Speaker 2>to say that's actually not true. We're just talking about

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<v Speaker 2>company tax, but things like GST or even payroll.

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<v Speaker 1>Tax, which is normally state based.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, but companies also have to pay payroll tax, which

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<v Speaker 2>is an employer tax that's different to the pay as

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<v Speaker 2>you go tax. It's all very complicated, but it's not

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<v Speaker 2>true that they're not paying any tax.

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<v Speaker 1>At all the other important part of this discussion. So

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<v Speaker 1>you've taken us through this idea that if a company

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<v Speaker 1>is operating at a loss, if they're spending more than

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<v Speaker 1>they're making, then they're not paying any company tax. That

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't necessarily mean the company is failing. I mean, think

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<v Speaker 1>about those names that you rolled out at the top, Netflix, AGL,

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<v Speaker 1>virgin Those are all brands that are you know, at

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<v Speaker 1>least from their boards and CEOs, they're heading in the

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<v Speaker 1>right direction.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know who taught me about this, tell me

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<v Speaker 2>you thank you. When I first started working at TDA

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<v Speaker 2>and started learning about the world of business and everything,

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<v Speaker 2>I remember you telling me that companies don't immediately need

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<v Speaker 2>to start making a profit. You know, you're playing a

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<v Speaker 2>long game here, and so it is not unusual that

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<v Speaker 2>businesses will often operate at a loss in specific years

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<v Speaker 2>for good reasons. For example, they might be expanding their

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<v Speaker 2>business and they might be planning to make profits or hopefully.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean all businesses will be planning to make profits

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<v Speaker 2>in a future year, but it might just take a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of years to get there.

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<v Speaker 1>Can I add one layer of complexity to that. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>Sometimes even investors or shareholders like on the stock market.

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<v Speaker 1>They might actually be disappointed if a company is making

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<v Speaker 1>too much profit because it's showing that they're not using

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<v Speaker 1>that money to put it in growth opportunities. And a

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<v Speaker 1>dollar in the bank can get interest and that's really

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<v Speaker 1>good and secure. But a dollar being used by an

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<v Speaker 1>innovative company to do something that makes their market share bigger,

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<v Speaker 1>that might result in three dollars. And so, yeah, profit

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<v Speaker 1>is a really interesting idea.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I remember the last time that we spoke

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<v Speaker 2>about companies paying no company tax on the podcast, we

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<v Speaker 2>talked about well for that specific year, we were talking

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<v Speaker 2>about Quantus paying no tax, and it was during the

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<v Speaker 2>years of COVID and they were operating at big losses.

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<v Speaker 2>But now as of this pass report, they are paying

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<v Speaker 2>company tax. So it just shows that again, you can

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<v Speaker 2>be making a loss one year, the next year you

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<v Speaker 2>can be making big profits and again paying company tax then.

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<v Speaker 1>And what investors always want to see is growth and

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<v Speaker 1>whatever form that growth is in is very important to them.

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<v Speaker 1>Remind us why we're talking about this today though.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So the reason we're talking about this today is

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<v Speaker 2>because the Australian Tax Office released its annual Corporate Tax report.

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<v Speaker 2>Now that is a report where it covers private and

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<v Speaker 2>public companies that are making at least one hundred million

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<v Speaker 2>dollars every year. I look to see if the dally

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<v Speaker 2>Os was there. Unfortunately, we're not quite there.

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<v Speaker 1>One of these years, one of these years we are

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<v Speaker 1>going to be interrogated on the corporate tax report. Not

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<v Speaker 1>quite yet.

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<v Speaker 2>So any company that is making one hundred million dollars

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<v Speaker 2>or more in revenue in Australia is included in this report,

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<v Speaker 2>and it revealed that more than a quarter of these

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<v Speaker 2>big companies did not pay any company tax. Now, if

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<v Speaker 2>you're not familiar with this kind of story, you might

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<v Speaker 2>be thinking that's quite a lot. More than a quarter

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<v Speaker 2>of companies in Australia making over one hundred million dollars

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<v Speaker 2>a year aren't paying company tax. But that's actually the

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<v Speaker 2>lowest percentage of companies paying zero tax in the past decade.

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<v Speaker 1>And when you're talking about these companies that are making

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<v Speaker 1>over one hundred million, are these companies that we've heard of,

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<v Speaker 1>Are these companies that we engage with or are they

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<v Speaker 1>you know, miscellaneous massive maybe mining companies that we don't

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<v Speaker 1>have much interaction with as consumers.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I mentioned some of them at the top.

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<v Speaker 2>There was AGL, Virgin. There was also Toll the shipping

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<v Speaker 2>company Ticketmaster, one that I'm sure many of us are

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<v Speaker 2>familiar with and what I found interesting. So we've mentioned

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<v Speaker 2>that the threshold to be included in this report is

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred million, but some of these companies are literally

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<v Speaker 2>making billions of dollars but they still paid no company tax.

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<v Speaker 2>One that we have talked about is Netflix. They made

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<v Speaker 2>more than a billion.

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<v Speaker 1>Dollars just in Australia, just.

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<v Speaker 2>In Australia, and justin revenue, again not profit, but they

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<v Speaker 2>paid no company tax. And what's interesting and quite controversial,

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's safe to say, is that a company

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<v Speaker 2>like Netflix, which is a multinational company, they are not

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<v Speaker 2>playing around with the rules in tax systems in single countries,

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<v Speaker 2>but they also get to play around with it across

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<v Speaker 2>all countries that they operate in. So it's a very

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<v Speaker 2>different company to something like Virgin Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's spell that out a little bit more.

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<v Speaker 2>So.

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<v Speaker 1>What you're talking about there is the idea that Netflix

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<v Speaker 1>Netflix Australia has an Australian company that is fully owned

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<v Speaker 1>by Netflix Worldwide and where Netflix Worldwide is registered and

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<v Speaker 1>it's based that will have an impact on how much

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<v Speaker 1>tax they pay. Yes, got it?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, And I'm not necessarily saying Netflix, but I'm saying

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<v Speaker 2>that some companies, some multinational companies, could be moving profits

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<v Speaker 2>or revenues around to pay less tax in certain countries.

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<v Speaker 1>And so this is part of the debate that government,

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<v Speaker 1>successive governments, both labor and liberal have had over many

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<v Speaker 1>decades now, which is the idea that if you're earning

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<v Speaker 1>money from Australians but then sending that money overseas straight away,

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<v Speaker 1>that's another way to not pay corporate tax. What should

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<v Speaker 1>the rules be there? And no one really has had

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<v Speaker 1>a clear answer to that question. I mean one of

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<v Speaker 1>the companies that this comes up with a lot is

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<v Speaker 1>measure and the number of Australian businesses that spend money

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<v Speaker 1>on Facebook ads for example, if you look at the

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<v Speaker 1>receipts of those ads, then it'll say Dublin on it

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<v Speaker 1>and it goes straight to Ireland and that's where that

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<v Speaker 1>business is based out of and so they have to

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<v Speaker 1>be accountable to Irish tax laws but not Australian. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>it's worth noting that Meta says that they are compliant

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<v Speaker 1>with all Australian tax laws, and the ATO is a

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<v Speaker 1>very powerful institution in chasing up these companies, and all

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<v Speaker 1>of this is above board. And I think that's the

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<v Speaker 1>recurring interesting point here, Billy, is that no one's breaking

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<v Speaker 1>rules here. The rules are set up to allow for

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<v Speaker 1>companies to structure themselves in these ways.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it's interesting that you bring up that the

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<v Speaker 2>ATO is, you know, really focusing on compliance, because that

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<v Speaker 2>is the reason that when I mentioned earlier that it

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<v Speaker 2>is the lowest percentage of companies paying no company tax.

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<v Speaker 2>The reason for that is because they have increased their

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<v Speaker 2>investment into making sure that all companies are being compliant.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's through these tax avoidance bodies that they set

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<v Speaker 1>up with in the ATO that take forensic examinations of

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<v Speaker 1>companies to make sure that they're paying the tax that's

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<v Speaker 1>owed to the ATO exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And investment into that task force has increased in recent years.

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<v Speaker 2>And so yeah, like I said, this is the first

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<v Speaker 2>time in eleven years. Well I didn't say this stat

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<v Speaker 2>this is a new stat So the first time in

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<v Speaker 2>eleven years that the number of entities paying no tax

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<v Speaker 2>has dropped to below thirty percent, and that number of

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<v Speaker 2>eleven years, that's just when this report started, so it's

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<v Speaker 2>basically the first time on record that it has dropped

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<v Speaker 2>to below thirty percent. So it just shows that it

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<v Speaker 2>is working. It is above board, but there is a

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<v Speaker 2>real focus on compliance at the moment. It's above board

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of this report, right, but as we know,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, there are potentially dodgy things happening, not what

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<v Speaker 2>we've talked about today, but outside of what we're talking

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<v Speaker 2>about today.

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<v Speaker 1>It's an area of the law and of the economy

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<v Speaker 1>that people spend their entire lives trying to work through,

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<v Speaker 1>work in and work around.

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<v Speaker 2>That we've just tried to explain in a ten minute

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<v Speaker 2>podcast on a Tuesday morning, So.

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<v Speaker 1>Possibly go wrong. Billy, thank you so much for taking

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<v Speaker 1>us through that very complicated area, but one that always

0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:31.400
<v Speaker 1>grabs the headlines and we thought it was worth explaining.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you, and that's all we've got time for you

0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:36.240
<v Speaker 1>on today's episode of The Daily OS. We're going to

0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:38.679
<v Speaker 1>be back in the afternoon with some headlines. If you've

0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:41.760
<v Speaker 1>got any questions left over from this discussion, just shoot

0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.480
<v Speaker 1>us a dm over on our Instagram. We've got TDA Finance,

0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:48.760
<v Speaker 1>our brand new finance newsletter and a good place to

0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.000
<v Speaker 1>try and break down some extra questions you've got from

0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.280
<v Speaker 1>today's episode. We'll speak to you later in the afternoon.

0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:59.680
<v Speaker 1>Until then, have a great day. My name is Lily

0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:03.120
<v Speaker 1>Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda Bunjelung Calkatin woman from

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<v Speaker 1>Gadigol Country.

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<v Speaker 2>The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

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<v Speaker 2>the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to

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<v Speaker 2>all Aboriginal and Torrestrate island and nations. We pay our

0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.240
<v Speaker 2>respects to the first peoples of these countries, both past

0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:17.840
<v Speaker 2>and present.