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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, it's okay for kids to have a fairly limited

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Speaker 2: food range and be learning to like a wide variety

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Speaker 2: of foods across their whole childhood and sometimes even into

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Speaker 2: their teenagers and into adulthood.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't always happen before they're five.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My Mum

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Speaker 1: and Dad.

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Speaker 4: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson. I'm the parenting expert

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Speaker 4: on chenil on Mind's Parental Guidance, the author of six

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Speaker 4: books about raising happy families, and the host of the

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Speaker 4: Happy Families podcast. Today, a conversation that parents of anyone

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Speaker 4: who has you know, when the kids they only eat

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Speaker 4: the one food, or they won't eat anything, or they

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Speaker 4: decide that they're going to do this new thing with

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Speaker 4: their food and that doesn't involve eating it, it's just

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Speaker 4: playing with it because they don't like what you've cooked.

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Speaker 4: The I don't like that conversation. Today we're talking about

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Speaker 4: fussy eaters, picky eaters, same same. And I've got somebody

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Speaker 4: to chat with me about this that I think is

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Speaker 4: just going to be so helpful. Deb Blakely is an

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Speaker 4: Accredited Practicing Dietitian. That's the official title and APD. It

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Speaker 4: matters because it means that Deb's done all the right

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Speaker 4: work to get all the right qualifications to give us

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Speaker 4: answers to this. And Deb runs Kids Dig Food. What

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Speaker 4: a great name for a business. Hey, Deb, thanks for

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Speaker 4: joining us on the Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Justin, I'm really pleased to be here. This is

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Speaker 3: a topic that's very close to my heart, as you probably.

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Speaker 4: Know I do. So let me start with what I

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Speaker 4: think is the number one important question to ask around

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Speaker 4: picky eating. And we're talking about kids from one to twelve, right,

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Speaker 4: We're not talking about adolescents, because things get a little

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Speaker 4: bit murkier there. We're just talking about once the child

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Speaker 4: is off the breast, or at least not fully breastfed,

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Speaker 4: through to their adolescent years, being a picky eater. I

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Speaker 4: was doing some research on this a few weeks ago.

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Speaker 4: It actually wasn't really a thing until the nineteen seventies.

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Speaker 4: Like history shows, parents didn't think much about what their

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Speaker 4: kids ate at all. In fact, they got mad at

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Speaker 4: the kids for trying to eat all the food that

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Speaker 4: was on the table. Everything the kids were always hungry toy.

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Speaker 4: It's all about master chef for kids, right, and and

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Speaker 4: we care a lot. So what would you say are

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Speaker 4: the main reasons that kids become a bit picky about

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Speaker 4: their food?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, I think the first thing to remember, if

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Speaker 2: we're thinking about what happened, you know, say, I'm a

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Speaker 2: child of the seventies, so you know, the difference is

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Speaker 2: that parents are navigating a very different feeding environment, a

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Speaker 2: food landscape today.

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Speaker 3: It's totally different.

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Speaker 2: You're right, you know, we had you know, if you

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Speaker 2: think about what might have been in your lunch box

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Speaker 2: when you were a kid, it.

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Speaker 4: Was pet of sandwiches, peanut, but of sandwiches that's all

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Speaker 4: I had.

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Speaker 2: In apple and you know, so there's a lot of difference.

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Speaker 2: There's different perceptions about what kids need to eat. You know,

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Speaker 2: we've got parents really feeling like they're they're being judged about.

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Speaker 3: What's in what their child's eating or what's in the

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Speaker 3: lunch box. You know. Social media has got a lot

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Speaker 3: to say for.

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Speaker 2: That, and I think we you know, kids essentially are

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Speaker 2: the same as they were in the set eventies in

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Speaker 2: terms of how they navigate food. I think what's changed

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Speaker 2: is our expectation has changed of what children should be doing,

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Speaker 2: and I put should very much in averted commas there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I love the way you say that, because I'm

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Speaker 4: thinking back to like, my mum was always a good cook,

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Speaker 4: I thought, but it was standard meat and free vegs

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Speaker 4: for dinner, and the steak when we had steak was

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Speaker 4: cooked well done. I mean there was no such thing

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Speaker 4: as a rare steak or a medium rare steak back then,

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Speaker 4: and we expected it was just bangers and mash. It

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Speaker 4: was sausages and some veggies or something like that. And

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Speaker 4: I think you're right that expectation. I hadn't considered that

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Speaker 4: until you said it, and I love that little insight,

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Speaker 4: just such a little quirky acknowledgment. Is there an age

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Speaker 4: where we should expect pickiness? Like? Is there an age

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Speaker 4: were kids start to get really picky? And then conversely,

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Speaker 4: is there an age where they start to expand their palates?

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Speaker 4: Should we expect at a certain age they'll get over

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Speaker 4: them get over themselves in their pickiness.

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Speaker 3: Well, I give this.

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Speaker 2: Answer with a caveat that every child is different, and typically, however,

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Speaker 2: though we do see children around that sort of one

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Speaker 2: to two maybe three age group they've transitioned to solids.

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Speaker 2: The parents might have experienced like a bit of a

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Speaker 2: honeymoon period where they ate everything for the first few

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Speaker 2: months of eating solids and they think, oh wow, my

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Speaker 2: kids are really wonderful eater, and then all of a

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Speaker 2: sudden they start dropping foods or they start getting a

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Speaker 2: bit pickier. Interestingly, it's usually around the time a week

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Speaker 2: if we look at a child's growth chat where growth

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Speaker 2: trajectory starts to slow a little bit, so they're coming

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Speaker 2: out of that really rapid growth phase of the first

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Speaker 2: year of life. And also, you know, I guess you've

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Speaker 2: probably got other experts that can explain it better than me.

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Speaker 2: There's also this time of differentiation of you know, I'm

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Speaker 2: my own person. I'm learning that I'm different to my parents,

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Speaker 2: and I can crawl over there and Mum can't do

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Speaker 2: much about it, and you know, and so there's this

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Speaker 2: independence factor I think that plays in as well. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, but typically children will become more picky into

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Speaker 2: the second and third year of life, and then you know,

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Speaker 2: typically over the you know, the many years to come,

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Speaker 2: they will slowly start to expand back out.

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Speaker 3: Some kids never really display much picky eating at all.

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Speaker 2: Some kids stay quite diverse in their food range, and

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Speaker 2: they'll eat anything that the parents give it give them,

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Speaker 2: and then you know, there's it's a spectrum, so you know, obviously,

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Speaker 2: you know there's kids who are super picky, kids who

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Speaker 2: are super relaxed, and everything in between. And I guess

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Speaker 2: the difference is how parents navigate that time in relation

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Speaker 2: to how their child is navigating it too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you, deb. It's probably important to pause here

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Speaker 4: as well and just acknowledge and highlight that some kids

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Speaker 4: do actually have some specific sensitivities, they have additional needs,

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Speaker 4: or there may be medical reasons for that fussiness around

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Speaker 4: food as well, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And certainly as a APD are working the area

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Speaker 2: of pediatrics and family nutrition, that is part of our assessment.

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Speaker 3: So we would delve into what are.

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Speaker 2: The reasons or are there reasons why a child is displaying,

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Speaker 2: you know, tippicky eating behaviors, And sometimes there is a

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Speaker 2: medical cause or another kind of cause. It could be

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Speaker 2: anything to do with the head or neck area, teething, reflux,

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Speaker 2: cleft and lip.

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Speaker 3: Palette, tongue and lip ties, all.

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Speaker 2: Of those, anything that kind of interrupted that child's ability

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Speaker 2: to eat or maybe it was painful at one time

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Speaker 2: and then we've got I guess the area that our

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Speaker 2: team works a lot with nowadays is parents who are

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Speaker 2: struggling with kids who are more extreme picky eaters. And

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Speaker 2: we often see this in neurodiverse kids, so kids who

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Speaker 2: are whose brain works differently to the majority of the population.

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Speaker 3: And I guess the most common types.

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Speaker 2: Of neurodiversity where we see more extreme picky eating is

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Speaker 2: kids with autism and ADHD for example, not exclusively, but

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Speaker 2: you know a lot of those kids.

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Speaker 3: Do have challenges with eating.

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Speaker 4: With picky eating, Yeah, things like sensory processing disorder and

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Speaker 4: that kind of thing as well.

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Speaker 3: And absolutely and.

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Speaker 2: In fact, you know, I said with picky eating, but

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Speaker 2: we actually don't like to call it picky eating because

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Speaker 2: it is quite a lot more complex than just that.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's a lot of things at play for

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Speaker 2: those kids, and you know, we really need to look

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Speaker 2: at the big picture for them to support them to

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Speaker 2: do the best that they can do, and also the

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Speaker 2: families to navigate what is often a very very stressful

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Speaker 2: experience of feeding a child who will only eat white

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Speaker 2: and brown and foods.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, after the break, we're going to talk exactly

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Speaker 4: about that. I want to know how we can help

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Speaker 4: our kids when they only eat the yellow stuff or

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Speaker 4: the white stuff, the white breads, the past of the spaghetti,

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Speaker 4: that kind of thing. We're also going to find out

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Speaker 4: the biggest mistakes the parents make when the kids are

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Speaker 4: being fussy. It's coming up on the Happy Families podcasts.

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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 5: US Screens Creating Tension at Home Betweens, Teens and Screens

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Speaker 5: is a webinar to guide families to healthy, safe superscreen solutions.

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Speaker 5: Bye today at Happy families dot com, dot au slash shop.

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Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 4: poor parent who just wants answers Now today. My special

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Speaker 4: guest on the podcast is Deb Blakely, an accredited practicing

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Speaker 4: dietitian and the owner the CEO of Kids Dig Food.

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Speaker 4: You can find everything about Deb and her work online

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Speaker 4: Kids Dig Food, and we'll link to Deb's resources in

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Speaker 4: our show notes. Let me move towards a conclusion. Let's

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Speaker 4: get to the practical side of things here. So I

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Speaker 4: want to make a guess the majority of people who

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Speaker 4: are listening to this podcast. While we certainly have a

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Speaker 4: lot of families who are raising kids who are not neurotypical,

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Speaker 4: majority still fall into a neurotypical category. So let's menagine

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Speaker 4: that we've got a fairly standard family and one of

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Speaker 4: the kids is just being a little bit picky, a

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Speaker 4: bit annoying about food. Can you talk about the biggest

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Speaker 4: mistakes that typical parents in a typical family with a

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Speaker 4: quote unquote typical child make when their kids are being fussy?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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Speaker 2: Look, the first thing that we see is usually pressure.

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Speaker 2: So when we do our assessment of a family, what

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Speaker 2: we're looking at is to find out, I answer that question,

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Speaker 2: why is this child struggling with food? And to do

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Speaker 2: that we ask lots and lots of questions, and typically

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Speaker 2: what we find is there is a disconnect between in

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Speaker 2: that family feeding relationship that involves pressure, some kind of pressure.

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Speaker 2: So either the parents trying to do the child's jobs

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Speaker 2: of eating, the child being given maybe too much leeway

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Speaker 2: to do a lot of the deciding around food and eating.

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Speaker 3: Maybe there's it's just a bit of a free for all.

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Speaker 2: And typically that's because parents have kind of just gotten

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Speaker 2: to a stage where they just go, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what to do anymore, and so they're

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Speaker 2: bouncing around between lots of different parenting styles around feeding

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Speaker 2: which are maybe not suited to, you know, to a

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Speaker 2: child developing a healthy relationship with food. So the pressure

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Speaker 2: is one comparison comparing one child with another.

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Speaker 3: All of our kids are different, you know.

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Speaker 2: I guess one of the worst things you can possibly

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Speaker 2: say is, oh, come on, you know your brother's eating it.

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Speaker 2: Why can't you well, that child is having a completely

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Speaker 2: different experience with that food than their sibling is. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, avoiding comparison and just the worry. You know,

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Speaker 2: we see so many parents fueled by worry in this.

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Speaker 2: They kind of get into a spiral, a spiral of

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Speaker 2: worry which then increases their likelihood that they're going to

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Speaker 2: place pressure on their child.

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Speaker 3: And that pressure could be subtle, or it could be

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Speaker 3: more overt, you know, be more overt.

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Speaker 2: Kinds of pressure is you know, you'll stay at the

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Speaker 2: table till you've finished every bite.

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Speaker 3: It could be you know, you're going to have that

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Speaker 3: for breakfast.

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Speaker 2: If you don't finish it, it could be oh, just

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Speaker 2: in negotiating just one more bite, or you know, if

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Speaker 2: you have this then you can have ice cream. All

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Speaker 2: of that stuff does not help the child develop a

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Speaker 2: healthy relationship with food. And you know, one of my

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Speaker 2: key I guess models role models as a dietitian and

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Speaker 2: as somebody working in the air of family nutrition as

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Speaker 2: Ellen Sada, a dietitian and family therapist in the States,

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Speaker 2: and her one of her key quotes is when the

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Speaker 2: joy goes out of eating, nutrition suffers. So if the

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Speaker 2: joy is going out of eating in your family, then

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Speaker 2: that's an indication that things aren't going so well, and

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Speaker 2: that would be one of the reasons that I would say, Okay.

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Speaker 3: Well, if you're feeling really really down in.

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Speaker 2: The dumps about this, if you're approaching meal times being

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Speaker 2: feeling anxious and worried about what you're going to do,

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Speaker 2: then that's a sign that you actually might need a

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Speaker 2: little bit of help, and hopefully a help from from

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Speaker 2: an expert rather than the next door neighbor or grandma

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Speaker 2: who's fed in a totally different way.

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Speaker 4: Deb What are your top three solutions for pickie eaters?

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Speaker 2: Okay, so, first of all, we need to trust our children.

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Speaker 2: We need to trust that they're going to be able

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Speaker 2: to learn to like new foods.

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Speaker 3: As they get older.

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Speaker 4: That's hard, that's really hard when they're only eating pasta.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah, and it's likely not always going to happen

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Speaker 2: as quickly as we want it to or as you know,

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Speaker 2: Facebook or Instagram or whatever thinks that you know, other

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Speaker 2: we kind of you know, look at other kids and go, oh,

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Speaker 2: my kid isn't eating that.

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Speaker 3: So trust is really important. Never bat kids into a corner.

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Speaker 2: So we always want to be able to be serving

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Speaker 2: them some foods each meal or snack that are.

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Speaker 3: Familiar to them that we know that they're going to like.

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Speaker 2: Because if we back foods into a corner, particularly are

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Speaker 2: really cautious, kids are really independent, you know, must do

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Speaker 2: it my way or myself kids, it's not going to

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Speaker 2: end well.

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Speaker 3: And the third thing would.

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Speaker 2: Be to provide opportunities for kids to explore food that

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Speaker 2: the parents eat, and because over time they will learn

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Speaker 2: to like a wider variety of foods and typically they

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Speaker 2: learn to like the foods that their parents like to eat.

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Speaker 2: It's likely going to happen more slowly than we hope.

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Speaker 2: And that we come back to that regional comment when

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Speaker 2: we're talking about you know, with you know, we don't

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Speaker 2: have to be foodies, and in historically we haven't had

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Speaker 2: as wide a variety of foods available to children as

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Speaker 2: we do nowadays compared to say, thirty years ago. And

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Speaker 2: you know, kids, it's okay for kids to have a

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Speaker 2: fairly limited food range.

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Speaker 3: And be learning to like a wide variety of.

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Speaker 2: Foods across their whole childhood and sometimes even into their

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Speaker 2: teenagers and into adulthood.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't always happen before they're five.

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Speaker 4: I'm so glad you said that. I didn't like avocados

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Speaker 4: until I was in my thirties. I didn't like oysters

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Speaker 4: still i was in my thirties. I didn't like olive

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Speaker 4: sills in my forties. Like your tastes change as you

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Speaker 4: mature and you expand your palette throughout your life. So

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Speaker 4: I'm so glad you said that. We could have talked

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Speaker 4: for hours. This is such a fun conversation for people

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Speaker 4: who want more, because there's so much more we could

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Speaker 4: have talked about. Where can they go to find your resources?

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Speaker 4: How can you help them with their fussy eating issues.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, at the.

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Speaker 2: End of last year, Justin I launched an online course.

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Speaker 2: It's a video based course contents about two hours. It's

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Speaker 2: called feeds Your Picky Eater Without Going Crazy, And that

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Speaker 2: little course is really for any parent who is just

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Speaker 2: struggling with picky eating, not really knowing what to do next.

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Speaker 2: It is typically for parents of kids age.

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Speaker 3: One to twelve. How much is that is that it's

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Speaker 3: twenty seven dollars.

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Speaker 4: That's cheap, So I'm going to say cheap as chips.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if she wanted to make it. We

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Speaker 3: did want to.

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Speaker 2: I purposely made it as economical as I could. I

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Speaker 2: want it to be available to as many parents as possible.

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Speaker 3: Our team.

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Speaker 2: If you feel like you need a little bit more help,

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Speaker 2: our team does see families all across Australia.

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Speaker 3: Tellyhealth.

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Speaker 2: We were doing Tellyhealth before COVID, but we're certainly doing

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Speaker 2: a lot.

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Speaker 3: More of it now.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, so they would probably be the first places

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Speaker 2: that I'd.

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Speaker 3: Recommend that you go.

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Speaker 4: Well, a twenty seven dollar course sounds great, so Sally

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Speaker 4: Health for families who are dealing with significant challenges will

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Speaker 4: be even better. Deb Blakely, a credited practicing dietitian and

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Speaker 4: the founder and CEO of Kids Dig Food, will link

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Speaker 4: to all of those resources in the show notes. Thanks

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Speaker 4: so much for joining us for this conversation. Thanks justin

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Speaker 4: the Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roulotte from

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Speaker 4: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. If you'd

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Speaker 4: like more information about making your family happier, you can

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Speaker 4: get well a whole swathe of resources at Deb's website,

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Speaker 4: Kids Dig Food. We'll link to that like I said,

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Speaker 4: or visit Happy families dot com, dot a you tomorrow

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Speaker 4: teaching children to apologize on the podcast. We're also going

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Speaker 4: to have a conversation next week about whether or not

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Speaker 4: kids should play with guns, and a whole lot more

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Speaker 4: on the Happy Families podcasts. Visit happyfamilies dot com dot

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Speaker 4: a you for more