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Speaker 1: Already and this is the daily This is the Daily OS.

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Speaker 2: This is the daily ohs oh, now it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily ODS. It's Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: the twenty ninth of May. I'm emma, i'm zara. This week,

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Speaker 2: an expert panel handed the government a list of recommendations

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Speaker 2: aimed at reducing eating disorder rates in young people.

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Speaker 3: The prevalence of eating disorders in young people between ten

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Speaker 3: and nineteen is up eighty six percent since twenty twelve.

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Speaker 2: It comes after eating disorder survivors and support advocates met

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Speaker 2: with politicians and social media bosses in September last year.

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Speaker 2: Now they're calling for legislative reform and changes to the

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Speaker 2: way young people use social media. We'll have more in

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Speaker 2: the Deep Dive, but first, Zara. What's making headlines.

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Speaker 1: An Israeli air strike has killed forty five Palestinians in

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Speaker 1: a camp for displaced civilians in Rafa Gaza. Israel's Prime

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Speaker 1: Minister Benjamin Natanyahu said it was a quote tragic accident.

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Speaker 1: It comes after the International Court of Justice ordered Israel

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Speaker 1: to halt its offensive in Rafa on Friday.

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Speaker 2: Victorian Premier de Cinta Allen says the State government has

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Speaker 2: appointed Australia's first Parliamentary Secretary for Men's Behavior. The new

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Speaker 2: role is aimed at addressing gender based violence and will

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Speaker 2: focus largely on the influence of online and social media

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Speaker 2: on boys and men's attitudes towards women. The position will

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Speaker 2: be filled by Victoria's current Parliamentary Secretary for Mental Health

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Speaker 2: and Suicide Prevention, Tim Richardson.

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Speaker 1: Spain has announced funding for military aid to Ukraine worth

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Speaker 1: one point six billion Australian dollars. Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelenski

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Speaker 1: met with Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez, where the pair

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Speaker 1: signed a new security agreement. The deal includes an additional

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Speaker 1: eight point two billion dollars for Ukraine by twenty twenty seven.

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Speaker 1: It comes amid Russia's ongoing invasion of the country. President

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Speaker 1: Zelenski said he was quote grateful to the Spanish Parliament

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Speaker 1: for supporting Ukraine.

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Speaker 2: And today's good news. The Queensland University of Technology is

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Speaker 2: working to develop a breakthrough treatment for Parkinson's disease. Parkinson's

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Speaker 2: is a degenerative neurological disorder that causes a person to

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Speaker 2: lose control of their movement. There is currently no effective

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Speaker 2: treatment for Parkinson's. However, QUT scientists are developing a drug

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Speaker 2: that could slow the disease and in some cases stop

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Speaker 2: it completely. The drug would target patient's gut, ecosystems and

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Speaker 2: the body systems that connect the human braincuntgut. Before we

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Speaker 2: get into today's deep dive, just a heads up that

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Speaker 2: we'll be discussing eating disorders and more specifically some of

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Speaker 2: the triggers that exist for eating disorders in the social

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Speaker 2: media world. So if you don't I don't feel up

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Speaker 2: to listening to that today, this might be one to miss.

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Speaker 1: And we spoke on the podcast last year about these

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Speaker 1: talks that had been convened in Parliament House. They were

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Speaker 1: called round tables, and the idea was that they were

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Speaker 1: bringing together people with lived experience of eating disorders, survivors,

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Speaker 1: advocates and social media bosses. Can you just give everyone

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Speaker 1: a bit of refresher as to what actually went down?

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Speaker 2: Yep. So in September, as you mentioned, we had all

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Speaker 2: these stakeholders meeting in Canberra to talk about eating disorder

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Speaker 2: rates in young people and specifically the relationship between young

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Speaker 2: people eating disorders and social media. So the panel, the

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Speaker 2: roundtable coincided with the release of new research from Melbourne

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Speaker 2: UNI which found TikTok shows over two hundred percent more

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Speaker 2: appearance based videos, over three hundred percent more videos about dieting,

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Speaker 2: and over three thousand percent more videos about eating disorders

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Speaker 2: to people with an eating disorder and those without.

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Speaker 1: Wow, I feel like there's a lot to unpack there

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Speaker 1: about you know, algorithms and how information is served up.

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Speaker 1: So we will dive into that shortly, but I do

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Speaker 1: just before we go on, and want to understand a

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Speaker 1: bit about the context to eating disorders in Australia. What

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Speaker 1: are the stats, what do we understand about the scale

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Speaker 1: of the issue.

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Speaker 2: So the Butterfly Foundation, and they're the national eating disorder

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Speaker 2: advocacy group charity, they released a report in February which

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Speaker 2: found more than one point one million Australians are currently

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Speaker 2: living with an eating disorder and that's a twenty one

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Speaker 2: percent increase on data from twenty twelve. So the Butterfly

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Speaker 2: Foundation also pointed to a specific rise in eating disorders

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Speaker 2: among young people, so the fifteen to nineteen age group

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Speaker 2: that is now the most likely age group to have

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Speaker 2: an eating disorder, whereas in twenty twelve it was people

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Speaker 2: aged twenty to twenty four who were most likely okay.

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Speaker 1: So it's clearly a really prevalent issue and deeply concerning

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Speaker 1: that that age cohort is getting even younger. How does

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Speaker 1: that tie into the specific roundtable conversations that happened in camera.

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Speaker 2: So Zoe Daniel is an independent federal MP. She actually

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Speaker 2: led the initiative after concern about the prevalence of eating

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Speaker 2: disorders and growing questions about this role of social media,

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Speaker 2: its relationship with body image and harms to young people.

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Speaker 2: So she launched this roundtable with the Butterfly Foundation in September,

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Speaker 2: and that facilitated talks between lawmakers, advocates, and Meta, which

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Speaker 2: owns of course Facebook and Instagram.

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Speaker 3: And from that they formed a series of working groups

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Speaker 3: and they've been away working on policy changes and potential

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Speaker 3: leaders that government and the platforms could pull to keep

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Speaker 3: young people safer online, particularly when it comes to body

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Speaker 3: image and body dissatisfaction.

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Speaker 1: Something I've picked up You've said Meta quite specifically, but

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Speaker 1: you referred earlier to the fact that TikTok is showing

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Speaker 1: these really elevated levels of disordered eating content. Why was

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Speaker 1: TikTok not there?

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Speaker 2: This was a really noticeable absence and one that was

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Speaker 2: discussed at the time. We actually spoke to Vashi Yajman.

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Speaker 2: She's a youth mental health advocate. She was part of

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Speaker 2: the round table, and here's what she told TDA at

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Speaker 2: the time.

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Speaker 4: It was quite concerning that TikTok wasn't there, and considering

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Speaker 4: they have over a billion users now and also are

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Speaker 4: really playing a big role in perpetuating disordered eating buddy

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Speaker 4: image issue and eating disordered behaviors as well, So I

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Speaker 4: really do think that they should take some ownership and

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Speaker 4: recognize that they hold such a great amount of power.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So that was September and we're now at the

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Speaker 1: end of May and we've got this list of recommendations

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Speaker 1: from the panel. What has that panel actually said, What

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Speaker 1: did all of this work kind of amount to.

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Speaker 2: So there are twenty one recommendations that have been handed

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Speaker 2: down this week and they span a few key areas,

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Speaker 2: including themes like changes targeting social media algorithms as well

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Speaker 2: as legislative reform, so proposals to actually change the law

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Speaker 2: to make social media a safer place for young people

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Speaker 2: at risk of eating disorders. And it is worth saying

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Speaker 2: here that while Meta participated in those discussions, in those

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Speaker 2: meetings in Canberra, its representatives didn't contribute to the recommendation's list.

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Speaker 2: Now this is because Meta said it would be a conflict.

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Speaker 1: Of interest, so interesting, and I mean that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: But I guess it's also worth remembering that these recommendations

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Speaker 1: might mention targeted social media change, but that doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: mean that platforms themselves have to endorse those ideas. They're

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Speaker 1: obviously private companies and can do whatever they like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot of people got a bit

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Speaker 2: excited when these recommendations were handed down because I personally

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Speaker 2: I thought that that meant that there was some kind

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Speaker 2: of an endorsement from Meta, but they were not part

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Speaker 2: of those final recommendations. So I'll take you through some

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Speaker 2: of the proposals that stood out to me. One included

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Speaker 2: giving Australian authorities more powers to demand social media platforms

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Speaker 2: remove pro eating disorder content.

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Speaker 1: Talking about the removal of content. The only other time

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Speaker 1: I've heard that has been in the context of the

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Speaker 1: E Safety Commissioner talking about taking down violent content. Are

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Speaker 1: we talking here about the same powers that E Safety

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Speaker 1: Commissioner exactly?

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Speaker 2: So it would be about giving safe the E Safety

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Speaker 2: Commissioner more powers to compel social media platforms in the

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Speaker 2: same way as like you're saying, with violent content, to

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Speaker 2: take that content down, that pro eating disorder content.

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Speaker 1: What actually is pro eating disorder content?

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Speaker 2: So the roundtable experts actually did define this content as

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Speaker 2: anything that glorifies or encourages eating disorders or extreme weight loss,

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Speaker 2: or even content discussing low BMI. So that's body mass index.

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Speaker 2: It's a metric that's been broadly criticized by plenty of organizations,

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Speaker 2: including the Butterfly Foundation themselves, as being this kind of

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Speaker 2: outdated and even harmful metric. But we do still see

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Speaker 2: social media content kind of sprooking BMI.

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Speaker 1: That is the you know, specific content that people might

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Speaker 1: be finding themselves. But another matter here is algorithms, right,

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Speaker 1: because what you choose to access and what you are

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Speaker 1: shown or given is another matter altogether.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we can't have a conversation about social media algorithms.

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Speaker 2: So the panel did recommend this idea of functions on

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Speaker 2: social media platforms, so technology that would be built into

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Speaker 2: apps to allow users to filter out harmful material from

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Speaker 2: their social media feeds. So a kind of opt out

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Speaker 2: assurance that you could say, I don't want to see

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Speaker 2: any content about weight loss trends or diet challenges or

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Speaker 2: any kind of you know, quote unquote fitsbo content that

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Speaker 2: might be particularly triggering or harmful to someone with a

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Speaker 2: diagnosed eating disorder.

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Speaker 1: But I mean that technology already exists because you can

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Speaker 1: hide certain keywords on social media so that you can't

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Speaker 1: see comments of that nature, and that's to kind of

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Speaker 1: stamp out trolling. But clearly there is that technology already.

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Speaker 2: The emphasis here is on making it easier for users

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Speaker 2: to do that, so you know whether or not you

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Speaker 2: can fiel to certain things out from your feet at

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Speaker 2: the moment that might not be abundantly accessible or clear

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Speaker 2: to a lot of users. So this recommendation emphasized making

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Speaker 2: it really easy for someone to scroll to the top

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Speaker 2: of their feed, hit a button, and opt out of

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Speaker 2: something quickly. Platforms in terms of algorithms, would also, under

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Speaker 2: these recommendations, be required to improve the diversity of the

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Speaker 2: types of bodies that users are seeing in their feed

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Speaker 2: what the algorithm is serving up. So we're talking about

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Speaker 2: diversity of size, race, gender, ability to improve the I

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Speaker 2: guess user experience of the type of passing.

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Speaker 1: How does that work in practice?

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Speaker 2: Though impact no idea.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems really difficult because to do that, I mean,

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Speaker 1: algorithms are fueled by AI, and they're fueled by a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of kind of technological advancement that I can't

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Speaker 1: even comprehend. And so I wonder if you'd have to

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Speaker 1: be like tagging or having some opened up a whole

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Speaker 1: other that it would be an AI technology.

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Speaker 2: And as much as you know an algorithm can serve

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Speaker 2: you up back to back to back content of the

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Speaker 2: same body type of person or the same profile of person,

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Speaker 2: maybe then you know it can go the other way.

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Speaker 2: There was even a transparency recommendation which I found interesting,

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Speaker 2: urging social media companies to share their data about their

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Speaker 2: algorithm about their content with researchers and also to offer

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Speaker 2: financial support to develop knowledge around body image.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, very interesting. I think many many calls have been

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Speaker 1: made for social media platforms to be more transparent about

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Speaker 1: how their algorithms work, and so far that has been

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Speaker 1: ignored on almost every occasion. Exactly but always good to

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Speaker 1: you know, have that reiterated. You did mention there that

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Speaker 1: the panel had focused on improving outcomes for young people specifically.

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Speaker 1: Were there any age specific recommendations though.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so there were several proposals specifically targeting users under eighteen,

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Speaker 2: and one of the most interesting recommendations to me was

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Speaker 2: one that included calls to restrict young people's access to

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Speaker 2: beauty filters.

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Speaker 1: I think this is so interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so anyone under eighteen would not be able to

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Speaker 2: access the filters on TikTok and Instagram that, as we've

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Speaker 2: all seen change the shape of your face, changed, the

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Speaker 2: shape of your features, the size of your features, the

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Speaker 2: colors of your features, your eyes, your hair, you know everything,

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Speaker 2: the like plastic surgery look of all these filters that

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Speaker 2: people just commonly use. So it would mean if this

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Speaker 2: recommendation was taken up, that a hypothetically sixteen year old

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Speaker 2: goes on Instagram the filters that you and I can use,

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Speaker 2: this sixteen year old cannot use. And I think it's

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Speaker 2: really interesting when you think about how those filters kind

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Speaker 2: of play into your subconscious sense of self and body image.

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Speaker 1: I think that one is fascinating and I haven't heard

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Speaker 1: that before, and it's so so true that, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it distorts your image from the get go and the

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Speaker 1: very purpose of it.

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Speaker 2: Everyone can probably think of that one person they follow

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Speaker 2: who always uses that filter, and it's almost like, because

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Speaker 2: they use that filter so much, you kind of forget

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Speaker 2: what they really look like. They probably feel a certain

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Speaker 2: pressure to never stop using that filter because that's what

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Speaker 2: people think they look like. But on the age stuff,

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Speaker 2: you know, we've heard so much said about age verification

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Speaker 2: in the last few weeks. Experts on this eating disorder

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Speaker 2: panel also backed that age verification to restrict young people

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Speaker 2: from opening a social media account. So, you know, ongoing discussion,

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Speaker 2: they're a lot of momentum.

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Speaker 1: I mean, as you said at the top, these are

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Speaker 1: just recommendations. What the government and what big tech ONTs

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Speaker 1: to do with them is another matter together. So what

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Speaker 1: actually happens from here with these recommendations.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So Zoe Daniel, the Independent MP, we actually heard

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Speaker 2: some of her voice at the top of the episode.

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Speaker 2: She launched the panel and will now present the findings

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Speaker 2: to federal government ministers across relevant departments so health, mental

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Speaker 2: health communications, to in her words, have a look at

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Speaker 2: the recommendations and see what lawmakers think is workable and

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Speaker 2: practical that will make a difference to people. So you know,

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Speaker 2: that means discussions with the government around which of these

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Speaker 2: recommendations it thinks could be implemented in a practical sense

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Speaker 2: as well as bigger conversations about social media's duty of

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Speaker 2: care to users. And so from there we might see

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Speaker 2: legislative changes, we might not.

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Speaker 1: I mean, ultimately the power lies with the government. What

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Speaker 1: have they said?

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Speaker 2: Federal Communications Minister Michelle Roland has welcomed the recommendations. She

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Speaker 2: said that the government wants to reduce the harm caused

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Speaker 2: by social media and that doubles down on the message

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Speaker 2: that we've heard from the government over recent weeks. Roland

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Speaker 2: said that the government is currently reviewing the Online Safety Act.

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Speaker 2: That's the legislation that sets out sort of protections for

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Speaker 2: users online, and that will include looking at how to

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Speaker 2: address body image. Basha Yajman, the lived experience advocate who

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Speaker 2: we heard from a little earlier. She's responded to the

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Speaker 2: recommendations and told TDA that she wishes she could have

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Speaker 2: had her social media algorithm diversified at the peak of

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Speaker 2: her eating disorder, so gives us a bit of a

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Speaker 2: sense of what it could mean in the real world.

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Speaker 2: She said that algorithms can make young people feel like

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Speaker 2: they can't escape from diet related content.

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Speaker 3: It's really important them.

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Speaker 4: We're holding people at China Pool who actually have the

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Speaker 4: authority and the power to do something.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. If this

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Speaker 1: episode has brought up anything for you, you can always

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Speaker 1: contact the Butterfly Foundation on one eight hundred three three

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Speaker 1: four six seven three. It's one eight hundred three three

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Speaker 1: four six seven three. Thanks, thank joining us, and we'll

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Speaker 1: be back again tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 3: Bujelung Kalkadin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 3: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 3: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest

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Speaker 3: Rate island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 3: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.