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Speaker 1: When you kill every moment that you could potentially be

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Speaker 1: alone with your thoughts by looking at a screen. So

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Speaker 1: every time you're in line, every time you're waiting for

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Speaker 1: the subway, when someone gets up at dinner and goes

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Speaker 1: to your bathroom and you're waiting for them to come back,

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Speaker 1: I've had every single moment like that. You look at

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Speaker 1: a screen. What you do is you put yourself into

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Speaker 1: a state called solitude deprivation where you're never alone with

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Speaker 1: your own thoughts. And we know that this is actually

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Speaker 1: really unhealthy. It's probably going to make you anxious. It's

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Speaker 1: also probably going to retard your ability to have sort

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Speaker 1: of self development or professional insights or breakthroughs.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of

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Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an

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Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, and I'm

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Speaker 2: obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day. Back

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Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen, a friend of mine who's actually been

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Speaker 2: on this podcast, Jason Fox. But I had to read

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Speaker 2: a book called Deep Work by Cal Newport. The premise

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Speaker 2: of the book is that the best way to get

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Speaker 2: more meaningful work done is by working deeply in a

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Speaker 2: state of high concentration without distractions on a single task. Yet,

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Speaker 2: given all the digital distractions and interruptions that exist in

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Speaker 2: the average workplace, Cal argues that many of us have

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Speaker 2: lost this ability and spend the majority of our day

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Speaker 2: doing shallow work, which is non cognitively demanding work such

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Speaker 2: as responding to email an instant messenger. Now, as soon

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Speaker 2: as I started reading Deep Work, I realized that I

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Speaker 2: had a big problem. I was effectively running my days

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Speaker 2: on shallow work and fitting bits of deep work in

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Speaker 2: amongst it, which was not a great strategy given that

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Speaker 2: I am a classic knowledge worker in that people pay

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Speaker 2: me and invent him for our ideas and our thinking.

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Speaker 2: Since reading Deep Work, I have been a huge cal Newport,

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Speaker 2: and his latest book, Digital Minimalism, is equally brilliant, which

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Speaker 2: looks at the impact of technology in our personal lives.

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Speaker 2: So this new book of his Digital Minimalism, actually prompted

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Speaker 2: myself and my husband to embark on a thirty day

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Speaker 2: digital de clatter, which I'll talk more about in another episode.

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Speaker 2: And you know, despite being someone who I feel has

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Speaker 2: a pretty healthy relationship with technology. Digital Minimalism definitely made

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Speaker 2: me see my relationship with technology in a very different light.

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Speaker 2: So on that note, it's probably a good time to

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Speaker 2: introduce my guest today, who is none other than Cal Newport.

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Speaker 2: Cal is a computer science professor at Georgetown University, and

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Speaker 2: he's the author of six best selling books, including most

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Speaker 2: recently the New York Times bestseller Digital Minimalism Choosing a

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Speaker 2: Focused Life in a Noisy World. Cal's work has been

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Speaker 2: published in over twenty languages and has been featured in

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Speaker 2: The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The New Yorker,

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Speaker 2: The Washington Post, and The Economist. Now, it's probably an

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Speaker 2: understatement to say I was excited for this chat because

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Speaker 2: I am a complete and ut offangirl of Cal's, and

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Speaker 2: it's fair to say that his work has had such

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Speaker 2: an enormous impact on the way that I work. So

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Speaker 2: in this interview we cover a bunch of different aspects

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Speaker 2: of the way Cal approaches his work, ranging from his

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Speaker 2: different deep work routines through to how he builds in

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Speaker 2: solitude and brought him into his days. So over to

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Speaker 2: Cal to hear about how he works. Cal, Welcome to

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Speaker 2: the show.

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Speaker 1: It's my pleasure.

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Speaker 2: I want to start by talking about deep work because

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Speaker 2: I've heard you talk about the benefits of creating a

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Speaker 2: deep work ritual, and I was wondering if you could

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Speaker 2: describe what your deep work ritual currently looks like in

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Speaker 2: your own life.

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Speaker 1: Well, so I differentiate between the types of deep work,

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Speaker 1: which is actually an innovation that came after my original

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Speaker 1: book came out. This is sort of an evolution of

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Speaker 1: some of the ideas from the book, because I realized

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Speaker 1: there's different types of deep activities that benefit from different

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Speaker 1: types of rituals. So, for example, when I'm writing, I

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Speaker 1: have a ritual built around writing that's quite specific. I

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Speaker 1: actually have in my house. I had a custom library

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Speaker 1: table built that was reminiscent of the tables at the

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Speaker 1: university library where I used to work as an undergraduate,

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Speaker 1: with sort of brass library lamps next to the dark

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Speaker 1: wood bookcases. And I have a ritual for writing where

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Speaker 1: I clear off that whole desk and I just have

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Speaker 1: those bright lights shining right down on the custom desk.

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Speaker 1: It's just me and my computer. But that's very different,

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Speaker 1: for example, than when I'm trying to solve a theoretical

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Speaker 1: computer science proof where the rituals I use almost always

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Speaker 1: involve various walking routes around my town, and so I

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Speaker 1: really differentiate, now what the ritual is the best match

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Speaker 1: the character of the cognitive effort.

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Speaker 2: That's fascinating. How well, and I love the sound of

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Speaker 2: this custom made library table as well. That's really cool.

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Speaker 2: How how did you like how did your deep work

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Speaker 2: routine evolve to that? In terms of getting to the

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Speaker 2: insight that you need different rituals for different types of

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Speaker 2: deep work.

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Speaker 1: I think what what was bothering me at some point

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Speaker 1: is that I realized that the rituals I had built

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Speaker 1: were centered on only one type of deep work, and

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Speaker 1: then when I was getting to other types, I was

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Speaker 1: feeling either I wasn't really counting it as deep work,

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Speaker 1: or I was feeling frustrated. And so my memory was

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Speaker 1: I really had my deep work rituals built around solving proofs,

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Speaker 1: because that was at the core of my job as

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Speaker 1: a professor, and so a lot of what I needed

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Speaker 1: to do, for example, for writing, like reading hard things

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Speaker 1: or taking notes or actually sitting down and writing chapters

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Speaker 1: wasn't being captured by the same rituals I would use

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Speaker 1: to solve proofs, and I was just getting really frustrated

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Speaker 1: and I would say, Wow, you know, I didn't really

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Speaker 1: deep work this week, and I said, wait a second,

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Speaker 1: actually I did. No. I just was too narrow in

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Speaker 1: my definition. And so I think it was just reacting

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Speaker 1: to that frustration in my own life that I realized, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I have to be more broad when thinking about what

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Speaker 1: deep work means.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And how do you know if you're actually

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Speaker 2: doing deep work, like if the activity that you are

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Speaker 2: working on constitutes deep work, Like I've heard you have

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Speaker 2: conversations I think on other podcasts where you discuss the

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Speaker 2: difference between being in flow versus doing deep work, which

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Speaker 2: has had Is that something you're able to elaborate on.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's an important distinction. I think the right way

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Speaker 1: to think about it is under the category of different

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Speaker 1: types of deep work. Some of what's under that category

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Speaker 1: might induce a flow state, some of it might not,

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Speaker 1: so they're not the same thing, but they're also not

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Speaker 1: completely different. So the type of deep work that creates

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Speaker 1: a flow state tends to be where you're applying a

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Speaker 1: well known skill to somethingly demanding. But you really might

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Speaker 1: get into a flow of you know, I'm writing and

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Speaker 1: I'm in a flow, or I'm sort of making I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking through a proof and I'm starting to make progress

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Speaker 1: on it. I just feel completely engaged. But another type

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Speaker 1: of important deep work is when you're trying to learn

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Speaker 1: something new or improve a skill, which requires a deliberate practice,

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Speaker 1: where you're stretching yourself, paste your comfortable because you're constraining

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Speaker 1: really hardless stay to try to learn a new idea

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Speaker 1: that you've never known before, to learn a new tool.

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Speaker 1: That is by definition actually kind of the opposite of

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Speaker 1: a flow state. When you're in a state of deliberate practice.

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Speaker 1: The honors Erickson, who really helped innovate the research and

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Speaker 1: deliberate practice is very clear that it's unpleasant. You don't

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Speaker 1: lose track of time when you're trying to learn something new.

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Speaker 1: You actually are quite aware of every minute because it's hard.

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Speaker 1: But that's also deep work, and so it's just a

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Speaker 1: broad umbrella. Some deep work you feel great, you lose

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Speaker 1: track of time. Some you're white knuckling it because it's

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Speaker 1: really hard. But the fulfillment you're going to get is afterwards,

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Speaker 1: when you're knowing that you did something, you did something difficult.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to ask. When I read Deep Work a

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Speaker 2: couple of years ago, I remember being struck by the

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Speaker 2: insight that I had somehow let shallow work take over

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Speaker 2: my life, and I simply tried to fit in bits

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Speaker 2: of deep work in amongst it. I'm sure I'm not

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Speaker 2: alone in reaching that insight, and I've since completely transformed

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Speaker 2: the way I work and get so much more out

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Speaker 2: of my days. And I want to know for you,

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Speaker 2: have you always been a naturally deep worker or was

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Speaker 2: this something you had to build or create into the

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Speaker 2: way you work.

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Speaker 1: I had always been a natural deep worker, in part

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Speaker 1: because of the field in which I worked, and so

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Speaker 1: training as a theoretical computer scientist, my world was a

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Speaker 1: world in which concentration was just openly considered to be

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Speaker 1: the most important skill. This is what you were judged on,

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Speaker 1: this is what you were rewarded for. No one could

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Speaker 1: care less about busyness. Busyness was actually probably a sign

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Speaker 1: that you weren't a very good theoretician. People had prod

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Speaker 1: in the number of hours they could spend staring at

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Speaker 1: a whiteboard, and so in this sort of esoteric field

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Speaker 1: I was in, deep work was at the core of it,

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Speaker 1: and so I really understood it. The insight that really

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Speaker 1: surprised me, however, is when I discovered that deep work

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Speaker 1: is just as important in almost every other knowledge field

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Speaker 1: as well. And so for me, the process of coming

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Speaker 1: to write that book Deep Work was sparked by the

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Speaker 1: process of saying, Okay, well, for me, concentration is really important,

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Speaker 1: but what's important in other fields? And keep coming up

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Speaker 1: with the same answer, the sort of discovery that this

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Speaker 1: thing that I thought was pretty narrow that applied to

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Speaker 1: only a small number of rarefied jobs turned out to

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Speaker 1: be core to almost everything in the knowledge economy.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious about the idea that's interesting for you that

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Speaker 2: you have always been a deep worker, and I would

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Speaker 2: imagine that a lot of people that have read Deep

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Speaker 2: Work probably we're probably stuck in a similar work routine

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Speaker 2: to where I was, where the majority of my day

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Speaker 2: was shallow work, even though I am a knowledge worker.

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Speaker 2: What if you're seen to be the most effective ways

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Speaker 2: for people to break the shallow work cabit.

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Speaker 1: Well, the first step is just the vocabulary. So if

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Speaker 1: you don't differentiate between what is deep work and what

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Speaker 1: is shallow work, it's very very easy to just get

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Speaker 1: into a world of busyness right. If you don't differentiate

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Speaker 1: between these two activities, then the only metric you have

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Speaker 1: is am I working harder? Am I not? And this

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Speaker 1: is the trap that a lot of people fell into

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Speaker 1: in the last ten or fifteen year in this age

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Speaker 1: of sort of very low friction communication and internet accessibility,

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Speaker 1: is that it just work is work, and either you're

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Speaker 1: working a lot or not. It was very easy to

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Speaker 1: be very busy and think that that was good. But

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Speaker 1: once you have the terminology of deep work and shallow

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Speaker 1: work and realize that in most jobs, at most levels,

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Speaker 1: deep work is what moves the needle, right, Deep work

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Speaker 1: is what gets you promoted. Deep work is what gets

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Speaker 1: you more revenue as a company. Deep work is what

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Speaker 1: actually produces value in the knowledge context, and shallow work

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Speaker 1: just hurts that. Once you make that distinction, then suddenly

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Speaker 1: you become incredibly uncomfortable if you notice that you're doing

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Speaker 1: almost no deep work, because in knowledge work, the main

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Speaker 1: manufacturing process is mine's concentrating to produce information with more value.

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Speaker 1: If you are not doing that, there's something probably problematic.

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Speaker 1: You're not producing value. You just talked about producing value

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Speaker 1: doing logistics about producing value. You're planning about producing value,

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Speaker 1: and so step one is getting the vocabulary right. Once

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Speaker 1: you have the vocabulary right, people get a hunger for well,

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Speaker 1: I want to do the deep work, and so something

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Speaker 1: as simple as just well, let me keep track of

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Speaker 1: how much I'm doing can be incredibly powerful because if

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Speaker 1: deep work is the main activity that actually creates new

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Speaker 1: value in almost any position, at almost any level, and

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Speaker 1: you see that you're doing two hours of a week,

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Speaker 1: then suddenly instead of thinking, Wow, aren't I great, I'm

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Speaker 1: really hustling, you look at this and say, what in

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Speaker 1: the world is going on? This is sort of a

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Speaker 1: degenerate setup. I've ended up and I'm spending almost no

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Speaker 1: time actually trying to produce things that are valuable and

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Speaker 1: that can give you the big spark you need to

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Speaker 1: make big changes because it's it's not easy. It's not

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Speaker 1: easy to push back against the cold the business. So

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Speaker 1: you need something like that to really help break you up.

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Speaker 2: Have you found that just that inside alone is enough

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Speaker 2: to spark behavior change.

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Speaker 1: Well, it sparks the hunger. I've been at that point.

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Speaker 1: It's helpful. It's helpful to have some meals to serve

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Speaker 1: to assaciate that hunger and let me mention two things

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Speaker 1: real quick that in the aftermath of deep work coming

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Speaker 1: out readers have reported to be very important for you know,

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Speaker 1: are at least very useful in practice for satiating a

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Speaker 1: new hunger for deep work. One is scheduling deep work

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Speaker 1: in advance on your calendar, treating it and protecting it

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Speaker 1: like any other meeting or appointment. So once it's on there,

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Speaker 1: that time is taken up you have to plan around it.

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Speaker 1: If someone tries to schedule something during that time, you say,

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Speaker 1: already have a thing. People are used to the social conventions,

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Speaker 1: run meetings, and appointments. If someone tries to get in

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Speaker 1: touch with you during one of these blocks and they're

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Speaker 1: upset because hey, why didn't you get back to me,

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Speaker 1: you can say, well, I had a thing from twelve

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Speaker 1: to two like you really do. Treat it like you're

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Speaker 1: going to the dentist or on in a meeting right

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Speaker 1: where you can't be reached. That's really helpful. So then

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Speaker 1: in advance people can start putting this time and locking

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Speaker 1: it in and then forcing themselves to work around the

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Speaker 1: anchor time to try to fit in the other shallow work.

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Speaker 2: That's useful.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that's useful I've been hearing from readers

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Speaker 1: is having a conversation with your supervisor or if you

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Speaker 1: work for yourself, sort of have this conversation with yourself

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Speaker 1: where you say, this is what deep work is, this

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Speaker 1: is what shallow work is. Both are important for the organization.

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Speaker 1: What's the ratio I should be shooting for in a

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Speaker 1: typical forty hour work week? How many of those hours

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Speaker 1: should be deep work for shallow work? And the answer

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Speaker 1: will be different for different jobs, right, But you get

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Speaker 1: an answer, and then you work backwards and say, okay,

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Speaker 1: what changes might we have to make so that we

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Speaker 1: can accomplish this goal that we decided together was going

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Speaker 1: to optimize the value I produced for the company. So

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Speaker 1: it's a way of approaching deep work with the people

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Speaker 1: you work with that is positive, saying how can we

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Speaker 1: use this idea and agree on how to do it

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Speaker 1: together to make more value, as opposed to what most

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Speaker 1: people do, which is negative, which is stop bothering me,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to answer an email. Stop scheduling me

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Speaker 1: in meetings, right, which just tends to make people defensive.

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Speaker 1: So those two things scheduling deep work like meetings and

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Speaker 1: appointments and two agreeing on a deep to shallow work

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Speaker 1: ratio are things I've been hearing from readers to be

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Speaker 1: really effective for getting more of this in to your life.

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Speaker 2: That's great. I love that question to ask your boss,

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Speaker 2: and I must say I personally have had great success

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Speaker 2: with just blocking out deep work in the diary. Generally,

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Speaker 2: almost every morning in my diary just has a do

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Speaker 2: not book sign over it, which I've personally found very

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Speaker 2: effective and funnily enough, the thing that I found hardest

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Speaker 2: to apply from deep work was you write a bit

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Speaker 2: about having a ritual to end your day and shut

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Speaker 2: down your work day, and I've never been able to

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Speaker 2: make that stick. But I'm wondering if you could describe

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Speaker 2: how your workday ends, because I've found that quite fascinating

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Speaker 2: and I'm not sure or if it's changed since since

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Speaker 2: writing the book.

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Speaker 1: No, it's more or less still the same. So the

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Speaker 1: idea of a work shutdown ritual is that when you're

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Speaker 1: done with work, you want to go through the potential

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Speaker 1: open loops, right, So make sure that anything that is

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Speaker 1: on your mind but not actually in a system where

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Speaker 1: it's going to be dealt with and scheduled, gets into

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Speaker 1: a system where it's going to be dealt with, scheduled.

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Speaker 1: Get everything out of your mind. I used to, depending

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Speaker 1: on what's going on in the week, I'll often at

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Speaker 1: this point check my calendar, check my task, check my plan.

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Speaker 1: Make sure that okay, I'm on track. I've got a

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Speaker 1: plan for the week. They know what I'm doing. I'm

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Speaker 1: on track to get things done. I'm not missing anything.

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Speaker 1: So that there's no open loops, no concern. Make your

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Speaker 1: last look at the inbox. There's nothing lurking there that's

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Speaker 1: an emergency. Right then you shut it down. So you

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Speaker 1: and I recommend having at first a phrase. You say

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Speaker 1: whatever you want it to be. The idea being that

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Speaker 1: once you've done the shutdown and you've said whatever the

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Speaker 1: phrase is, if later in the evening your mind starts

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Speaker 1: to bother you right and say, you know, like maybe

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Speaker 1: we're missing something. Maybe we should go back and think

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Speaker 1: some more about this, you can say, you know what

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Speaker 1: I said the phrase. I wouldn't have said the phrase

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Speaker 1: if I had it checked on everything and made sure

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Speaker 1: that I trusted our plan. So there must be a

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Speaker 1: plan I trust. I don't have to think about it anymore.

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Speaker 1: And what people experience is when they do the shutdown routine,

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Speaker 1: and that kind of pushback on the ruminations. After a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks, that urge to ruminate and think about

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Speaker 1: work after work is over starts to really diminish, which

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Speaker 1: allows them to have a much more sort of present

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Speaker 1: and relaxed evening.

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Speaker 2: It's so true, it's so true. It's funny. In my

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Speaker 2: own life, I just I can't seem to crack that.

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Speaker 2: I always am struggling to resist the temptation to hop

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Speaker 2: back onto my computer after my daughter's in bed. And

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Speaker 2: I wanted to ask, like, did becoming a parent, which

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Speaker 2: obviously happened for you quite a few years ago, did

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Speaker 2: that change the way that you approach your work and

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Speaker 2: particularly deep work habits.

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Speaker 1: Well, in some sense, my deep work habits made it

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Speaker 1: easier to make the transition to be a parent because

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Speaker 1: the way I used to work, you know, I trained

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Speaker 1: myself that I have work hours, and I want to

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Speaker 1: get the most of those work hours, and I'm going

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Speaker 1: to structure the day. It's going to be intense, depth,

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Speaker 1: really organized, shallow, have a shutdown when it comes time

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Speaker 1: to be the shutdown period. For whatever reason that that

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Speaker 1: was really appealing to me. I used to plan as

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Speaker 1: a grad student, I'd plan my day around my wife's

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Speaker 1: work schedule. So I was like, I want to use

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Speaker 1: every minute that she's at work to get as much done.

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Speaker 1: But then I don't want to be one of the

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Speaker 1: grad students who sort of was lazy during the day

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Speaker 1: and then has to be on campus all night. I

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Speaker 1: want to be home with her and doing other sort

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Speaker 1: of things. So I have this tight schedule. When I'm working,

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Speaker 1: work really hard. When i'm done, be done. So then

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Speaker 1: once we had kids, that kind of worked really well.

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Speaker 1: So I was like, Okay, when I'm at the office,

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Speaker 1: I'll work really hard. But then I was already used

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Speaker 1: to the idea that when I'm done, I can shut

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Speaker 1: down completely. And now shutting down completely wasn't just well,

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Speaker 1: it's just kind of relaxing when I'm home doing what

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Speaker 1: I want to do. Of course, now it's kind of,

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Speaker 1: you know, it keeps things off my mind when I'm

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Speaker 1: home running around doing childcare. But it fits really well.

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Speaker 1: And so this notion if I want to work deeply,

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Speaker 1: really intense, keep the shallow work incredibly organized and contain,

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Speaker 1: and when I'm done, when I'm done incredibly compatible with

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Speaker 1: being a parent.

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Speaker 2: It all sounds very logical work when you work and

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Speaker 2: don't work when you're not at work. Something I want

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Speaker 2: to shift on to, which you write about in Digital

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Speaker 2: Minimalism is the value of solitude and boredom. I guess

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Speaker 2: which you know. Like again, like when I was reflecting,

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Speaker 2: when I was reading the book and reflecting on my

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Speaker 2: own life, it's quite scary to think about how infrequently

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Speaker 2: I was feeling bored and how infrequently I would imagine

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Speaker 2: a lot of people experience boredom because there's just constant inputs,

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Speaker 2: and I'm curious to know how. And you write a

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Speaker 2: bit about this in the book. How do you experience

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Speaker 2: solitude and boredom? How do you create those states in

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Speaker 2: your own world?

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Speaker 1: Well, so, just to provide a little bit of background,

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Speaker 1: some context on the shift from Deep Work to Digital

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Speaker 1: Minimalism before getting to the specific question. Basically, Deep Work

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Speaker 1: was this book that was about focus in the workplace

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Speaker 1: and how technologies had unintentionally made that more difficult. And

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Speaker 1: so one of the big reactions I got the Deep

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Speaker 1: Work was Okay, maybe this is true, like what you're

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Speaker 1: saying about tech and what it's doing in the workplace,

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Speaker 1: But what about tech and our life outside of work,

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Speaker 1: because people in the last couple of years in particular,

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Speaker 1: were really beginning to feel that their life outside of

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Speaker 1: work was being taken over by screens in a way

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Speaker 1: that was making them uneasy, right, And it wasn't that, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I hate what I'm doing when I look at the screen.

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Speaker 1: It was the fact that they were looking at the

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Speaker 1: screen so much. It was almost like they were losing

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Speaker 1: their autonomy, that their whole life was getting eaten up

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Speaker 1: by just glance after glance after glance at the screens

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Speaker 1: was making them anxious, making them unhappy. I was keeping

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Speaker 1: away from friends and family, and so digital minimalism was about, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what's going on with this unease in our personal relationship

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Speaker 1: with tech, so outside of work, outside of things like

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Speaker 1: email and slack, and what can we do about it?

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Speaker 1: And so getting back to your question. So that's one

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Speaker 1: of the ideas I talked about in digital minimalism, is

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Speaker 1: that when you kill every moment that you could potentially

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Speaker 1: be alone with your thoughts by looking at a screen.

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Speaker 1: So every time you're in line, every time you're waiting

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Speaker 1: for the subway, when someone gets up at dinner and

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Speaker 1: goes to your bathroom, and you're waiting for them to

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Speaker 1: come back. I've had every single moment like that. You

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Speaker 1: look at a screen. What you do is you put

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Speaker 1: yourself into a state called solitude deprivation where you're never

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Speaker 1: alone with your own thoughts. And we know that this

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Speaker 1: is actually really unhealthy and it's probably going to make

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Speaker 1: you anxious. It's also probably going to retard your ability

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Speaker 1: to have sort of self development or professional insights or breakthroughs.

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Speaker 1: We really do need regular time spent alone with our thoughts,

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Speaker 1: which is why I recommend that you get that in

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Speaker 1: your life. And so what's the easiest way to do

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Speaker 1: that is my suggestion is most days, do at least

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Speaker 1: one or two things without your phone. And that simple

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Speaker 1: thing I go on one errand and I do whatever

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Speaker 1: one thing around the house each day where there's no

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Speaker 1: ear buzz, no phone. Something as simple as that can

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Speaker 1: have a major impact on your cognitive health, anxiety levels,

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Speaker 1: and happiness.

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Speaker 2: What does that look like in your life in terms

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Speaker 2: of incorporating, you know, moments of solitude and space to

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Speaker 2: be bored.

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Speaker 1: Well, I reject this idea, which is actually quite recent,

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Speaker 1: that you need to have a phone with you all

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Speaker 1: the time. You know, this notion that the phone's always there,

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Speaker 1: you're always looking at it. We're used to it, but

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Speaker 1: it's quite arbitrary, it's quite contrived, and it's quite recent.

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Speaker 1: And so I spend large parts of my day without

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Speaker 1: a phone handy, So I do walks, exercise. When I'm

436
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 1: at home, I typically my phone will be in my

437
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 1: bag somewhere. So I don't accept this premise that I'm

438
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,679
Speaker 1: like in an emergency room doctor that needs to be

439
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 1: accessible at all times on a communication device and so on.

440
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 1: You once you change your mindset to one where it's

441
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,159
Speaker 1: I use my phone to do various things, but it's

442
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,359
Speaker 1: not something I always have with me, you just naturally

443
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 1: get lots of solitude. So throughout my day there's just

444
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,679
Speaker 1: lots of times with just me alone with my thoughts

445
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,199
Speaker 1: because I don't have easy to traction nearby. And so

446
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 1: something as simple as that, think of the phone as

447
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,200
Speaker 1: a tool you occasionally use, not a constant companion, can

448
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,680
Speaker 1: really make a big difference in terms of getting more solitude.

449
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 2: It's such an interesting idea leaving your phone at home

450
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,919
Speaker 2: or in the glove box. And I must say, like

451
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 2: during the month of March, my husband and I both

452
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 2: read Digital minimalism before the month started, and we used

453
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,879
Speaker 2: that month as a digital declutter month, and something that

454
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 2: we both consume a lot of is podcasts. And I

455
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 2: really became aware of this habit where in any moment

456
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 2: where I could have been experiencing solitude, like I generally

457
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 2: spend the hours of six to seven am either walking

458
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,399
Speaker 2: or at the gym or exercising or moving in some way,

459
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,680
Speaker 2: podcasts and my AirPods would be glued in my ears.

460
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,200
Speaker 2: But one of the changes I made in the last

461
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,120
Speaker 2: month is actually going, well, what if I just spent

462
00:22:55,160 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 2: that hour in silence? And it just made things completely different.

463
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 2: I found that some of my best ideas were coming

464
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,639
Speaker 2: to me at that point where I was previously just

465
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 2: consuming stimulus. How do you delineate between these moments where

466
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 2: there's no input going in other than your own thoughts

467
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,120
Speaker 2: versus feeling like it's okay to have some stimulus going in,

468
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 2: Like I'm not sure if you're a podcast list or

469
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 2: I know that you're a big reader, but how do

470
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 2: you kind of delineate that time? I guess I.

471
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 1: Mean it's a good question because I do like podcasts.

472
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,439
Speaker 1: I am a big reader. I try to get rid

473
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 1: of the idea that it's a default activity. It's something

474
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 1: I guess I think of as I look forward to

475
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: our schedule. Right, So instead of being a default activity,

476
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 1: I guess I'm more active about putting aside when am

477
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 1: I going to get input? What input is it going

478
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 1: to be? So if I know, for example, I have

479
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 1: a lot of yardwork to do, yeah, maybe I'll say, great,

480
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to listen to this particular podcast as could

481
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 1: be good. On the other hand, I say, oh, I

482
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,959
Speaker 1: have a walk coming up, and say, you know, walking

483
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: my kid to school and I'm going to walk home alone.

484
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 1: I won't listen to a podcast. Then I've just become

485
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: used to. I really like that solitude. And so it's

486
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 1: not that there's a hard and fast rule, but I

487
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 1: plan when I'm going to do stimuli, and you know,

488
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: I have to think about it, right and say do

489
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: I want to listen to something or not? Do I

490
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 1: want the silence or is there something I think this

491
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 1: might be a good chance to listen to something. Same

492
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 1: thing with my commutes when I come to campus. Probably

493
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 1: about half the time I think. In the other half

494
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 1: the time I listen, and you know, I don't have

495
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 1: a precise heuristic that says this is when I do

496
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:31,439
Speaker 1: this and this is when I do the other. But

497
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 1: I just keep in mind that both are possibilities and

498
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: that it's worth thinking about in any given moment which

499
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 1: one I want to do.

500
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's nice being delivered about it. I feel like

501
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 2: for so many people it's just a habit to put

502
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 2: in earphones and just start listening when there's no other

503
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 2: stimulus that could be coming their way. And on the

504
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 2: topic of habits, I think this was a blog maybe

505
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 2: that you wrote a few months ago around habits versus workflows,

506
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 2: which I found really interesting because I think in the

507
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 2: productivity space there's such an emphasis on different hacks and

508
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 2: quick fixes, whereas you write about the importance of actually

509
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: reviewing your workflow, and I was wondering if you could

510
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 2: expand a bit on what you meant by that concept

511
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 2: and maybe give some examples of what are the different

512
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 2: workflows that you have in your own working life.

513
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,959
Speaker 1: I think this is a key distinction to understand some

514
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: of the issues we have in workplace productivity and how

515
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:33,479
Speaker 1: we might eventually solve them. So to me, a habit

516
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 1: is something you put in place for how you interact

517
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 1: with your work, so maybe when you check your email,

518
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 1: or your methods you use for organizing your email, or

519
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: maybe your personal planning, like how you plan out your

520
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 1: day or keep track of what you need to get done,

521
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: whereas workflow is the underlying either explicit or implicit system

522
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 1: that specifies how work gets done, so how obligations are

523
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: assigned to execute it and tracked. A lot of times

524
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: we think about habits, but it's actually the underlying workflow

525
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: that's causing the problem. So the key place, I think,

526
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: the key example where this distinction comes up is when

527
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: it comes to email overload. So to me, the big

528
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 1: problem with email is this underlying workflow that says, the

529
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,159
Speaker 1: way that we work in our organization is that we

530
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 1: maintain this sort of ad hoc, ongoing unstructured conversation using

531
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: email inboxes, and it's very flexible, it's very convenient if

532
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:29,719
Speaker 1: we all just kind of keep hey, you get that

533
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 1: what's going on over here, and that this is how

534
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: we're going to work. Is how we're going to pass

535
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 1: tasks off to each other, how we're going to follow

536
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 1: up on things. It's how we're going to communicate with people.

537
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: It's just we're going to have this ongoing, unstructured conversation.

538
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: Now you can have a lot of habits on top

539
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: of that workflow to try to tainment. So maybe you

540
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 1: don't check email all the time, and maybe you have

541
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: some nice folder system for organizing emails moving to a

542
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 1: to do list. But until you change that underlying workflow,

543
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 1: there's nothing that's going to solve the need in such

544
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 1: environment to check email a lot, spend a lot of

545
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: time doing email. And so like when I'm out there

546
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: talking about the problem of email overload, people really want

547
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: to just focus on the habits. They think, well, we

548
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 1: could just change some norms about how often we check email,

549
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 1: or batch it or let people know that we're not

550
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: going to respond right away, that we can solve all

551
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 1: the problems we're having. But often the underline issue is

552
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: that there's this workflow that depends on ongoing email communication

553
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: to get anything done. And so if you want really

554
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: systemic change, you have to replace that with something better.

555
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 1: And so I think organizations have to think about this,

556
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: and I think individuals can think about this in their

557
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 1: own life as well. To what extent are you rearranging

558
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 1: the deck chairs on the sinking Titanic when you're building

559
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 1: more complicated systems for an underlying workflow that's just inevitably

560
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: going to keep you overwhelmed or not doing what's important.

561
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: And so I like that distinction. There's the underlying decisions

562
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: about how tasks and obligations are identified as sign tracked

563
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 1: and executed, and then there's what you do on top

564
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 1: of that to help sort of interact with those workflows.

565
00:27:58,680 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: And those are two different things.

566
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 2: And what are some workflows that are true for your

567
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 2: own working life.

568
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an interesting question because, like often when I'm

569
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: talking about workflows and habits, it's relevant primarily at the

570
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: level of organizations, right, And so this is the difference

571
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 1: between two software development teams, one that just people are

572
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 1: on slack all day and the other where they use

573
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 1: an agile methodology like scrum. It's really explicit about here's

574
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 1: who's working on what. We put it on this board,

575
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: we can see its status. We have synchronous meetings, we

576
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,880
Speaker 1: do them twice a day. This is how we assign things.

577
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: They have a really structured workflow. Because of that structured workflow,

578
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: they don't need to be on slack all day. But

579
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: without that structured workflow, they need to be on slack,

580
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: because how else are tasks going to get passed around

581
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: or things checked on in terms of like in your

582
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: individual life. I mean, one way to think about it,

583
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: I suppose is in terms of processes or systems that

584
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: you use for identifying tasks and making sure they get

585
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,959
Speaker 1: done or assigning them. So sometimes these can be pretty subtle,

586
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: but a concrete example is like on my book tour

587
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: which I'm which I'm on now for digital minimalism, there's

588
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: a lot of bookings that have to happen, and so

589
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: I thought about the underlying workflow of well, what's the

590
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: what's the right way to actually sort of get things

591
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: identified and scheduled and information to me? And we built

592
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: a system with the publicity team where I could identify

593
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: time when I'm available. They then had access to those

594
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: parts of my calendar. They could then book things directly

595
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: on the calendar with all the information I need. I

596
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: could if I book something else, that time would get

597
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: blocked off. And we rebuilt the workflow that minimized back

598
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: and forth communication required to you know, accomplish the goal

599
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: of getting the proper things like this interview scheduled, for example.

600
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: And so that might be an example of working on

601
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: the underlying workflow as opposed to just the upper level

602
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: habits of like how often do I check my emails

603
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: about when things are being scheduled?

604
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 2: And do you have I guess on top of your workflows.

605
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 2: What are some of the most useful habits or productivity

606
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 2: systems or weekly rituals that you do to keep your

607
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: weak organized and flowing. Well.

608
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: Well, I'm a big believer in both weekly and daily planning.

609
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: I think you need to spend time to understand the

610
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: contours of your week, what's happening on each day, what

611
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: day is really crowded, what days have open space, so

612
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: that you can start moving things around at that scale

613
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,239
Speaker 1: and recognize, hey, Monday is pretty open, that's probably going

614
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: to be a good time to make a lot of

615
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: progress on this hard thing, even though that hard thing's

616
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: not due till Friday. But you're seeing on the calendar

617
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: that Wednesday and Thursday have a lot of meetings, right,

618
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: and so looking at the whole week and trying to

619
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: plan out what's going to happen when I think that's important.

620
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: Believer in time blocking on a particular day, give your

621
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,479
Speaker 1: time a job. Here's the hours I have available, what

622
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: am I doing with this hour? What am I doing

623
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: with this thirty minutes? What am I doing with this

624
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: three hour block? Give your time a job as opposed

625
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: to just approaching your day with a generic to do list.

626
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: You're much more effective at getting things out of your

627
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: day if again, you look at the free hours of

628
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: the day and reconfigure them, move them around, and figure

629
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: out how can I get the most out of this?

630
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: And then I often am a believer in ad hoc

631
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: sort of systems and rituals that match what's going on

632
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: at the time. And so if you have, let's say,

633
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: a big event coming up, do you have to do

634
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: a lot of planning for you might just say here's

635
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: what I'm doing. It's thirty minutes after launch every single day,

636
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: thirty minutes every single day just checking in, moving things,

637
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: seeing what's going on or whatever. Right, But this idea

638
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: of having temporary systems that you put into place to

639
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: help you make a lot of progress on important, non

640
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: permanent things in a way that doesn't have you just

641
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: completely an ad hoc looking at a tasklic type mode.

642
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: So if you do weekly planning, daily time blocking, build

643
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: temporary systems and rituals as needed for temporary but large

644
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: obligations that usually combines to help you get a pretty

645
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: effective use of the time available.

646
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 2: And can I ask with time blocking because it's something

647
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 2: I've experient mented with myself, and I feel like the

648
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 2: cognitive biases that either cause you to overestimate or underestimate

649
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: how long something takes, I've found can be my downfall

650
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 2: with time blocking. Where let's just say I've completely overestimated

651
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 2: how long something will take, but I've set aside three hours.

652
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 2: I finished it in an hour and a half, and

653
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 2: then like, what, like, how does that work in your world?

654
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: Right? Well, I mean I should say it. The bigger

655
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: point is that one of the nice things about time

656
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: blocking is that it's practiced to make you better at

657
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: estimating how long things take because there is some pain

658
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: to when you get it wrong. It requires some extra

659
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: effort and so you have an to try to get

660
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,719
Speaker 1: it right, and you get a lot of feedback. So

661
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: you see, consistently not giving myself enough time for this

662
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: type of activity, you get that feedback or I'm always

663
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: giving myself too much time, So that gets better. But

664
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: then what do you do in the moment, Well, if

665
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: you don't give yourself enough time, then you know if

666
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: you keep going till you finish what needs to get done,

667
00:32:58,240 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: and then you just adjust your schedule for the rest

668
00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: of the day, which is fine. And one of the

669
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: ways that people get time blocking wrong is they think

670
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: that it's a game where you win the gold medal

671
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: if you never have to change your schedule. But there's

672
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 1: actually no prize you get for getting your schedule exactly

673
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: right and never having to change it. You probably might

674
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: have to change it three, four or five times. The

675
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: goal is not to have a perfect schedule, it's to

676
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: always have some intention about what you're doing with the

677
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: time that remains of the day. Same thing if you

678
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: under schedule, so you have a couple options here. You

679
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: could add something new, or you could take advantage of

680
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: that time just to relax, or to do something that's

681
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: going to give you a dogative rest like that's actually

682
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: kind of a nice scenario. But the point I always

683
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: make about time blocking is that, regardless of what you do,

684
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: having a good understanding of how long things take is

685
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: crucial because if you don't, regardless of you're time blocking

686
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: or not, you're just going to keepetting yourself in the

687
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: trouble and you're going to keep having colliding deadlines. You're

688
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: going to keep having late nights, You're going to keep

689
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: having these sort of stressful moments when you realize, ah,

690
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: a lot still needs to get done and I'm not there.

691
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: And time walking trains you to better appreciate how long

692
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: things take and then otherwise just be comfortable with the

693
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: fact that you might have to change your schedule several

694
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: times about the day and that that's not negative, that's

695
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: actually how the system works.

696
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like the idea of actually taking a break.

697
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 2: And I've heard you talk about the concept of deep

698
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: breaks because I feel like people don't really think that

699
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 2: much about what constitutes a break, what they do in

700
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 2: a break, how long a break goes for. So can

701
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 2: you describe this concept of deep breaks and what they involve.

702
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 1: So, if you're doing a deep work and you're taking

703
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: a break, you're going to return the deep work. You

704
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: should be careful about the break, and so you want

705
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: to avoid, for example, in a break, exposing yourself to

706
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: other but similar type of work because now you're going

707
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 1: to contact shift and so you want to be really careful.

708
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,959
Speaker 1: If you're writing an article, you don't want to during

709
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: a break, maybe read or think about a related article.

710
00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: It's just too close, and now you're kind of contact

711
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: shifting to that other article, and it's going to be

712
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: hard to come back. You also want to avoid open loops,

713
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 1: exposing yourself the loops that you can't close during the break.

714
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,720
Speaker 1: And so this is what's dangerous about looking at email.

715
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: For example, in a fifteen minute break, you're going to

716
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:14,839
Speaker 1: see a lot of things that you can't get to,

717
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: a lot of emails you can't quite answer. Open loops

718
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:22,240
Speaker 1: really eat at our attention and reduce our cognitive capacity

719
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: going forward. So a deep break, you want to avoid

720
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: looking at similar type of work or open loops. And

721
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,280
Speaker 1: so you can look at stuff, for example, that's completely

722
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: unrelated to work. You know, you can read an article

723
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: about your local sports team is probably not gonna be

724
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: a big deal. You can go for a walk, you

725
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: can read a book, a chapter from a book, or

726
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: a magazine article that's completely unrelated to your work. These

727
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: type of things are fine. You can talk to people

728
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 1: you know, non work related conversations. All that's fine. Those

729
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: would be deep breaks, But you don't want to do

730
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: something similar. You don't want to expose yourself to open loops.

731
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 2: I find that really helpful because I feel like email

732
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 2: is the thing that often fills spare time because it

733
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 2: can take as long or as little as you want.

734
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 2: And how what does email look like in your life?

735
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 2: Like how how frequently do you check it? How long

736
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 2: do you spend in there? What would like your I

737
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 2: guess your email system look like in a typical way.

738
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 1: Well, there's two elements to it. So one is controlling

739
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: what comes in. And so if you look at, for example,

740
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 1: my author website and you go to the contact page.

741
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: I don't give people a general purpose email address. I

742
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: don't just say hey, I'd love to hear from you.

743
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 1: Here's my email address. Instead, there's very specific addresses for

744
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 1: very particular purposes, and then I give expectations around them,

745
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: like okay, if you're interested in speaking, well you can

746
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: you can talk to my speaking age of that's the address. Publicity,

747
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 1: here's like a publicist you can talk to. If you

748
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: want to send me links or articles which I really like,

749
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: you can send them to this address. But I don't answer.

750
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: I look at it, but I don't answer, and I

751
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 1: don't give an option, for example, for and if you

752
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 1: just have like questions for me or want to talk

753
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 1: to me or ask me to get involved than a

754
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: business or whatever. There's just no option for that. Now,

755
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: you would worry that that might make readers upset because

756
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 1: you're sort of cutting off accessibility, but I found that

757
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: didn't happen. People are okay with clarity. They don't really

758
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: need accessibility as long as it's clear. So if they

759
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: know for a fact, like, okay, there's no way for

760
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,280
Speaker 1: me to really reach you about this, and they're okay

761
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: with it, that's better than them just having a generic

762
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 1: email address and sending their business pitch to you with

763
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: some expectation that you might answer, and then being upset

764
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: that you don't. And so I try to cut down

765
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: on what comes in or expectations on reply. And then

766
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: in terms of dealing with the email that I do get,

767
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: you know, I schedule when I look at it, and

768
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: how often that is just depends on what's going on,

769
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: and so it's not maybe I go a day or

770
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: so without having to without being able to look at it,

771
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:44,879
Speaker 1: and over time people get mad at me a lot.

772
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: But people have learned that I don't use email like

773
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: an ongoing, constant communication or chat service. It's just not

774
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: something you can use to grab my attention real quickly.

775
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: Even if it's really convenient for you, that's just not

776
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: the way I use email. It might be a day

777
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: or two till I see it. And so I always

778
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: tell my students that when we begins, my colleagues have

779
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: learned it, my family has sort of learned about it,

780
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: and people are just and so for me, some days

781
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: I don't look at it, other days I do, and

782
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 1: when I do, I try to take care of it

783
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: in basically one session.

784
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: I do like the idea of just being clear and

785
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 2: setting expectations, and ironically that will lead to less disappointment.

786
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 2: I want to come back to emails towards the end

787
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 2: of our chat in a few minutes, but first I

788
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 2: did want to ask you something that my company, Inventium,

789
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 2: is working on at the moment with the University of

790
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,879
Speaker 2: New South Wales. Is actually looking at strategies like introducing

791
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 2: deep work into an organization along with other different strategies

792
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 2: for working better and trying to assess the impact on

793
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 2: productivity and other variables. And so I guess a couple

794
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: of questions there, because I've heard you talk about it's

795
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 2: actually quite hard to land on a definition of productivity,

796
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 2: Like if an organization introduces a workflow that is more

797
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 2: around prioritizing deep work when we're talking about knowledge workers

798
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 2: over shallow work, like, how do we actually measure the

799
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 2: impact of that on productivity? And then what are the

800
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 2: other variables that we would expect it to change, like,

801
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 2: you know, ranging from job satisfaction to health and well

802
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 2: being and stress levels. But I guess, in the context

803
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 2: of this study, how would you be measuring productivity when

804
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 2: it comes to the impact that deep work would have.

805
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: So I would go back to the economic metric of

806
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 1: productivity actual value produced per hour that you're paying salary,

807
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 1: which I sometimes call true productivity in the book, because

808
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: what we've done in knowledge work, because knowledge work is

809
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: a little bit more ambiguous, we don't have widgets to

810
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: count coming off of an assembly line, is that we

811
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: began to use busyness as a proxy for productivity. So

812
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: are you there early in the morning, are you around

813
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,280
Speaker 1: a lot? Are you answering emails very quickly? Just in general,

814
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: if you're doing something, at least we know you're not

815
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 1: being lazier taking advantage. And that's the sort of metric

816
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: we put into place. But what really matters is is

817
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 1: the activity producing concrete value for the organization, such as

818
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 1: dollars coming in in a for profit organization. And it's

819
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: there that I think that we're finding that we should

820
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: be a little bit concerned. Like if you look in

821
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: the US, for example, our labor department tracks this productivity

822
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: right revenue per sort of employment hour, and they break

823
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: it out for the non industrial sector, so particularly for

824
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,760
Speaker 1: they call it non industrial productivity metrics to not counting

825
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,399
Speaker 1: manufacturing but mainly just knowledge work. That metric has been

826
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 1: stagnant for a long time. I mean throughout this last

827
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: decade period where we invested billions to make communication as

828
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: fast and flexible and easy as possible. It's never been

829
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,800
Speaker 1: easier for you to get information or to contact someone

830
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: and get a quick response ever before in the history

831
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: of work. It doesn't show up at all in the

832
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: economic metrics, and I think that's something that should have

833
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: us really worried, right, And I think in large part

834
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: of it is because it turns out that all this

835
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: communication information gathering has an impact on our brains functioning.

836
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: It makes it hard for the brain to do the

837
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: actual job of thinking and producing value. And so if

838
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 1: I was measuring productivity. You know, from a study perspective,

839
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: I want to know about how much dollars are we

840
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: paying in salary, what are we getting back in terms

841
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: of revenue coming in like sort of these these baseline numbers.

842
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: And just as an aside, there's this really interesting study

843
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: from the nineties where an economist from Georgia Tech was

844
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: watching personal computers enter the desk like the workforce, like

845
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: the front office workforce in fortune five hundred companies in

846
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 1: the US. Right, So what happened when you got these

847
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 1: productivity enhancing computers on everyone's desk and he measured the

848
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 1: numbers very carefully in the way I'm talking about. His

849
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 1: name was Peter G. Sassone, and what he found. I

850
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: think this is really interesting is that the organization said, hey, look,

851
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 1: this is great. These computers make certain things that we

852
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 1: used to have dedicated support staff do, like typing and

853
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: sending letters or whatever. Right, it makes some of these

854
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 1: things easy enough that we no longer have the higher

855
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,959
Speaker 1: dedicated people just to do these administrative tasks the higher

856
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: level they called the managers in this study, but sort

857
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 1: of the higher trained employees can now do it themselves.

858
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 1: And so we're going to save all this money by

859
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: firing all the typists, and we don't need everyone to

860
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: have secretaries anymore because you can send emails and do

861
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: word processing. What ended up happening, however, is that he

862
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: calls us the diminishment of intellectual specialization. Now you take

863
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: the people who were actually producing the things that brought

864
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: value into the organizations, and all this administrative work fell

865
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: onto their plate. It then took more of those people

866
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 1: to produce the same amount of work, but their salaries

867
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: are much higher than the support staff that they fired.

868
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 1: And what with sasone crunched all the numbers, he figured

869
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: out that you were actually about twenty percent less effective

870
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:51,879
Speaker 1: in the sense that you could cut your payroll by

871
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: twenty percent to produce the same amount of work by

872
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 1: bringing back support staff and allowing people just to focus

873
00:42:57,960 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: at the higher level on just their work, and you

874
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: would need as many of these expensive high level employees.

875
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: That's the type of study I think we need to

876
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 1: have in mind who are thinking about productivity when you

877
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: get through the dollars and cents bottom line, I think

878
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 1: a lot of what we're doing with this constant communication,

879
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: hyper convenient busyness is having a huge economic impact. So

880
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: that's a long answer to a short question, but it's

881
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: something that I feel really strongly about, and I'm glad

882
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: that the University of South Wales is thinking about some

883
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: studies along these lines.

884
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 2: That is absolutely fascinating what you described. I'm also curious, like,

885
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 2: what are the variables outside of productivity would you expect,

886
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 2: like actually dedicating more time to deep work to have Like,

887
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 2: for example, in my own life, I just get so

888
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,799
Speaker 2: much more fulfillment from my work because I'm creating more

889
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 2: meaningful output into the world. So I'm curious what other

890
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 2: variables you would expect a deep work routine to impact.

891
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: Well, you should expect more psychological satisfaction and more satisfaction

892
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: with work, especially if you pair increased focus on deep

893
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: work with decreased communication responsibilities. So it's true that deep

894
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: work itself is very fulfilling. We like the focus on

895
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: one thing and produce something valuable. That's very fulfilling, and

896
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: so that makes us happier. The flip side of that

897
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,360
Speaker 1: is also really negative. So if you're constantly trying to

898
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 1: deal with tons of communication, each of which is someone

899
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 1: who needs something from you, and you can't keep up

900
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: with it because you have hundreds of messages and it's

901
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: always piling up and you're always behind. That collides with

902
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 1: the sort of ancient paleolithic social wiring in our brain

903
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 1: in a very unnatural way that makes us very unhappy

904
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: and very stressed and very anxious. It's really just in

905
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: the way that eating junk food hits our paleolithic you know,

906
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 1: food processing system in a bad way. It makes us

907
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 1: really overweight. Our body isn't meant for it. Our paleolithic

908
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: social brain is not meant for an inbox that's always

909
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: filling and we can't keep up with because it doesn't

910
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 1: know the difference between that email is not that important

911
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:04,959
Speaker 1: and what it was evolved for, which is if someone

912
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: around the tribal fire is trying to get your attention,

913
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:09,879
Speaker 1: you better listen to them because there's a lot at

914
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,320
Speaker 1: stake if you snub them, right, I mean, social dynamics

915
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: is something we're incredibly cue to, and things like email

916
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: completely mess around with these finely tuned social dynamics, which

917
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: is why we just feel compulsively like we have to

918
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: check it. We feel if a text message comes in

919
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 1: and we're driving, we still check it, even though it's

920
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 1: like putting our kids' lives in danger, because to us,

921
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: it's the same as like if someone's tapping your shoulder

922
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: at the tribal fire and you ignore them, like you

923
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: might get a spear in the back, right, Like, we

924
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: take that really really seriously. And so the more time

925
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 1: you spend trying to keep up with never ending communication,

926
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: the more unhappy you get. The more time you spend

927
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,720
Speaker 1: focusing deeply to try to produce valuable things, the happier

928
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 1: we get. So if you can increase the ladder and

929
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: decrease the former, people are going to have a much

930
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: more healthy relationship with their work. Your employees are going

931
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,280
Speaker 1: to be much more protected against burnout, and the positions

932
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 1: are going to be much more sustainable.

933
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great, And look in the kind of just

934
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 2: about out of time, but just in maybe one or

935
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 2: two minutes, I would just love to I guess you know,

936
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 2: that's a nice segue into the topic of your next book,

937
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 2: which I believe is about email free organizations. Is that correct?

938
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, the new book, which should say very much in

939
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: the early stages, but as of now it's tentatively titled

940
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: A World Without Email. It gets into a lot of

941
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,399
Speaker 1: these ideas. I mean, I basically argue that we don't

942
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: have a good theory right now about how to get

943
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 1: a lot of value sustainably out of human brains, and

944
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: the way we're working is a really terrible way to work.

945
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 1: And we've told ourselves this story that there's no other

946
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: way to work in a modern world than to just

947
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: send messages all the time. I can make the case

948
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: so that's actually quite arbitrary, and that there's this growing

949
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 1: movement of organizations who are much more careful about thinking.

950
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: We have these brains, we want these brains to produce value.

951
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 1: We don't want these brains to burn out. We're getting

952
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: incredibly innovative in answering the question of what's the right

953
00:46:58,040 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 1: way to work in a digital world.

954
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 2: I cannot wait to read that. And my final final question,

955
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 2: if people want to consume more of your work, you're thinking,

956
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 2: you're writing cal what's the best way for people to

957
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 2: do that?

958
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: So, from a book perspective, if you're interested in sort

959
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 1: of technology and work and the problems, Deep Work is

960
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: a good book. If you're interested in the impact of

961
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: technology in your personal life. You're looking at your phone

962
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: too much, you feel uneasy, you feel like a loss

963
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: of autonomy. Digital minimalism is good for you online. I

964
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: don't use social media. I'm not easy to reach, but

965
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 1: I do have a blog at calneport dot com that

966
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: I've been blogging at for over a decade, and so

967
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 1: that's a pretty quick way to sort of dive in

968
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: and see in more details of my ideas.

969
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 2: Awesome, Cal, it has been an absolute joy talking to you.

970
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time.

971
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:47,240
Speaker 1: Oh it's my pleasure.

972
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 2: Thank you. Hello, it's me again. That is it for

973
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 2: today's show. I hope you liked my chat with Cal

974
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 2: and got some interesting nuggets to take away and you know,

975
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 2: maybe rethink your workflows and how you approach work for

976
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,800
Speaker 2: yourself or maybe in your whole organization. And if you

977
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 2: like today's episode, why not share it with a friend

978
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 2: or even on social media because that would be a

979
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 2: little bit ironic given we were talking about digital minimalism.

980
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 2: But please share it listeners. Sharing this podcast is how

981
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 2: it has been growing and helping other people find this stuff.

982
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 2: So thank you if you have been sharing it around

983
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 2: and telling friends about it. So that is it for

984
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 2: today and I will see you next time.