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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bunjelung Calcottin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily Ods. Happy Friday.

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Speaker 2: It is the eighteenth of August. I'm Sam Kazlowski.

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Speaker 3: I'm Zara Seidler.

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Speaker 2: School attendance has dropped since the pandemic, and a Senate

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Speaker 2: inquiry says mental ill health could be to blame. In

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Speaker 2: today's deep dive, we're going to look at what school

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Speaker 2: refusal is, what the inquiry recommended to fix it, and

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Speaker 2: hear from those who are witnessing it firsthand.

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Speaker 4: Parents are almost crying for me, being at their wits

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Speaker 4: end because they don't know what to do, and that

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Speaker 4: I've got some kids that haven't attended school in more

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Speaker 4: than twelve months.

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Speaker 5: We've had mornings where he's screaming and in an absolute

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Speaker 5: state of panicker, fretting in the car the.

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Speaker 2: First rs some new unemployment numbers. That's right.

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Speaker 3: Yesterday we found out that Australia's unemployment rate has risen

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Speaker 3: to three point seven percent. That's according to the July

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Speaker 3: data from the Australian Bureau of Statistics. That is up

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Speaker 3: from three point five percent in June. Despite the increase,

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Speaker 3: there's still more people employed compared to a year ago.

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Speaker 3: Under employment, which is that number that measures the number

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Speaker 3: of people who aren't receiving as much work as they

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Speaker 3: would have liked to, stayed constant at six point four percent.

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Speaker 2: Telstra has announced a two point one billion dollar profit

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Speaker 2: for the twenty twenty two to twenty three financial year.

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Speaker 2: It's a thirteen percent rise on the telcos profits from

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Speaker 2: the previous year. Telstra listed product simplification and digitization among

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Speaker 2: the reasons for the positive results.

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Speaker 3: Over sixty people are feared dead after a boat carrying

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Speaker 3: migrants was found off the coast of West Africa. The

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Speaker 3: boat was believed to be at sea for over a month.

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Speaker 3: Most on board reportedly from Senegal.

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Speaker 2: And Your Friday good News is courtesy of The Matilda's.

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Speaker 2: Their semi final against England was the most watched TV

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Speaker 2: program in Australia since two thousand and one, and that

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Speaker 2: was when the current ratings formats started. Channel seven said

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Speaker 2: the game, which England did win three to one, will

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Speaker 2: brush over that reached over eleven million people. The Matilda's

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Speaker 2: play their last World Cup match against Sweden tomorrow night

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Speaker 2: as they look to secure third place in the World Cup.

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Speaker 2: A Senate inquiry has found that school attendance has dropped

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Speaker 2: since the pandemic and that school refusal could be to blame.

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Speaker 3: Talk me through this concept of school refusal because until

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Speaker 3: fairly recently I'd never heard this term before.

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Speaker 2: Well my mind first went to wagging school or truancy,

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Speaker 2: but it is actually a little bit different and it's

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Speaker 2: important to explore that difference. So school refusal refers to

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Speaker 2: a student's regular and persistent negative motional reaction to school.

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Speaker 2: It's often anxiety based, and it's different to wagging because

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Speaker 2: it's not just about not wanting to attend one day

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Speaker 2: or a few classes. It's more deeply rooted and often

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Speaker 2: related to mental ill health. It's often stood to have

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Speaker 2: a higher prevalence amongst autistic students and students with ADHD.

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Speaker 3: So I want to get to the Senate inquiry, which

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Speaker 3: is the hook, the reason we're talking about this today

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Speaker 3: in just a second. But first, I think this is

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Speaker 3: one of those stories that is really informed by the

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Speaker 3: lived experiences of both students and teachers and parents, and

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Speaker 3: so when we put this message up on Instagram, it

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Speaker 3: really garnered quite a significant response. There were lots of

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Speaker 3: people who are experiencing this firsthand. Can you take us

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Speaker 3: through some of the messages that we received.

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Speaker 2: Putting this up to our audience really helps me to

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Speaker 2: understand this story as well. I mean I don't have

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Speaker 2: school children, and so understanding the lived experience was really important.

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Speaker 2: We got a lot of mesa just right across the

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Speaker 2: spectrum of parents, educators, and even some school refuses themselves.

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Speaker 2: We got this message from a year seven coordinator who

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Speaker 2: says she works at a low SOURCEO economic school in

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Speaker 2: South Australia.

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Speaker 4: I'm watching these kids that I knew in reception and

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Speaker 4: even some of them preschool that we now see where

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Speaker 4: parents are almost crying for may being at their wits

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Speaker 4: end because they don't know what to do and their

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Speaker 4: child has you know, zero five percent attendance for the year.

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Speaker 4: I've got some kids that haven't attended school in more

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Speaker 4: than twelve months.

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Speaker 2: Here's another message from a mum in Melbourne who's struggling

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Speaker 2: with school refusal for her son, who's in grade two.

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Speaker 5: We've had mornings where he's screaming and in an absolute

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Speaker 5: state of panic, fretting in the car. We've had the

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Speaker 5: vice principal and his classroom teacher in our car in

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Speaker 5: the morning trying to coax him out while he's screaming

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Speaker 5: and fretting, And on those occasions, in the end they've

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Speaker 5: agreed that he can come back home, trying to make

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Speaker 5: deals with him that he can come back home today,

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Speaker 5: but he has to come tomorrow. He's actually fine when

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Speaker 5: he's at school, but it's just he can't cope with

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Speaker 5: being dropped off. I think the pandemic has really.

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Speaker 6: Made it worse.

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Speaker 3: When I hear these sorts of things, my mind immediately

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Speaker 3: goes to what are the options available, Like, what can

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Speaker 3: you actually do about that?

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Speaker 2: Well, there seems to be a real pain point, and

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Speaker 2: the mom we heard from talked about how hard it

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Speaker 2: can be to actually get.

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Speaker 5: Help and to see a psychologist. Well, past experiences, we

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Speaker 5: just can't access one, and if we have been able to,

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Speaker 5: it's on a cancelation only basis, so if someone cancels

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Speaker 5: their appointment, we can get in to see someone. We

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Speaker 5: saw them again two weeks later, and we've never been

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Speaker 5: able to get back in again, So that's basically money wasted.

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Speaker 5: It's a huge expense to then not be able to

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Speaker 5: get any momentum from you'd have to do it regularly

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Speaker 5: to get the momentum, and who can afford two hundred

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Speaker 5: and fifty dollars for one of your children?

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Speaker 2: But it can also be really hard for teachers and

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Speaker 2: staff in the school environment itself to really know what

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Speaker 2: to do there.

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Speaker 4: We have families that we have extreme concerns about who

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Speaker 4: we're trying to refer on to services, and those services

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Speaker 4: can include the Department for Child Protection to try and

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Speaker 4: get some intervention happening with these families because there is

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Speaker 4: only so much that we as a school, which is

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Speaker 4: an education service, can do, yet no service seems to

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Speaker 4: be willing to pick them up. We keep getting told

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Speaker 4: they're not severe enough or they're too severe. Well, you know,

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Speaker 4: where's the middle ground? What service is there to actually

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Speaker 4: engage in changing help?

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Speaker 3: I think that's a great question and also one that

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Speaker 3: I have is where do you turn to like what

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Speaker 3: sort of services are actually available if you're going through this.

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Speaker 2: Well, to come back to the inquiry, one of the

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Speaker 2: people who made a submission was John who started the

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Speaker 2: School Refusal Clinic in Victoria alongside his trusty sidekick, Max

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Speaker 2: the therapy dog.

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Speaker 6: Every session I have, whether it's at the clinic or

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Speaker 6: outdoors because I do outdoor walk and talk therapy if

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Speaker 6: you like, or counseling support along with Saint Kilda Foreshore

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Speaker 6: in the park and Max is always there.

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Speaker 2: So we've reached out to our audience and we've had

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Speaker 2: a lot of teachers and parents tell us that school

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Speaker 2: refusal is a huge issue and that there's no specialized

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Speaker 2: services equipped to deal with it. And that's kind of,

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Speaker 2: I guess the gap that you're trying to fill. What

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Speaker 2: does the typical program in the school Refusal Clinic look like?

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Speaker 6: Well, the first appointment is usually with mum and dad

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Speaker 6: or mum or parents are carers, and that's just to

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Speaker 6: get a bit of a sense of the issues, getting

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Speaker 6: a history really and just finding out what the story

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Speaker 6: is because everyone's got a different story. So I'm a

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Speaker 6: bit of a detective, so I like to ask lots

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Speaker 6: and lots of questions and then invite the young person

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Speaker 6: into the second session with the dog at the clinic,

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Speaker 6: and then we progress very quickly down to the beach

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Speaker 6: to talk about the problem in more detail at length,

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Speaker 6: whilst we're having fun in the outdoors.

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Speaker 2: So give me a bit of a sense of what

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Speaker 2: is at the stem of this issue? Where is this

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Speaker 2: kind of come from?

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Speaker 6: Well, school atteenmis is a problem has been a problem

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Speaker 6: for a long time. This is a bit different though.

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Speaker 6: This is particularly since COVID kids were forced to stay home,

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Speaker 6: weren't they, and back to school and then back home again,

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Speaker 6: and for two years in Melbourne perhaps more so than

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Speaker 6: other cities, but everyone's experienced that problem. And you know,

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Speaker 6: kids learning home from home on computers, on screens near

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Speaker 6: the fridge, near the bedroom, near their tech and then

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Speaker 6: you know, not going outside it's too dangerous, and then

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Speaker 6: suddenly back to school. So that's meant adjusting. Some kids

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Speaker 6: really liked that, others hated it, lost contact with their friends,

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Speaker 6: started feeling a bit anxious going out, and the whole

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Speaker 6: thing's progressed in all sorts of ways for lots and

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Speaker 6: lots of kids.

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Speaker 2: Is there a particular age group that you're seeing more

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Speaker 2: represented in the work that you do than others.

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Speaker 6: Yes, there is. Yes, I'm seeing kids in kinder and

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Speaker 6: prep at the moment with separation, worries from mum and

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Speaker 6: dad and don't want to say goodbye at the gate

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Speaker 6: or work, get out of the house. Right through to

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Speaker 6: sort of the kids through COVID that miss grade five

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Speaker 6: and six and then suddenly jumped into year seven. That's

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Speaker 6: probably the bigges one. Kids in years six, seven, eight,

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Speaker 6: and nine have really suffered the most.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about the typical client. What type of personality

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Speaker 2: traits are they exhibiting. I know there's obviously no such

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Speaker 2: thing as as a truly typical client, but give me

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Speaker 2: a sense of who these kids are.

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Speaker 6: That's a really interesting question, because what I'm noticing is

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Speaker 6: really smart kids, really smart, sensitive kids who think a lot,

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Speaker 6: who are very aware of the world and the dangers

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Speaker 6: in it. Perhaps sometimes what we would think of little

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Speaker 6: things become big things, like what losing contact with their friends?

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Speaker 6: What are their friends doing? They're not at school, they

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Speaker 6: don't know what's going on at school, they don't know

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Speaker 6: what's going on in the classroom. They might have fallen behind,

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Speaker 6: just a bit of confidence having sleep difficulties, arguments with home,

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Speaker 6: and they worry about feeling pretty bad about the world

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Speaker 6: really and having difficulty stepping back into it.

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Speaker 2: John, If a young person doesn't want to go to

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Speaker 2: school because they're anxious and they prefer to be at

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Speaker 2: home and learn from home, why should we make them

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Speaker 2: go to school?

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Speaker 6: Well, you said don't want to go to school. A

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Speaker 6: lot of children I see do want to go to

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Speaker 6: school but feel they can't.

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Speaker 2: I think that's an important kind of distinction. There.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, refusal means you're refusing you don't want to go.

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Speaker 6: That might be the case, where as usually a blend

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Speaker 6: of don't want, but more can't because kids know they're

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Speaker 6: missing out. They want to be at school, they want

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Speaker 6: to get on with their lives. But really the anxiety

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Speaker 6: is really the number one social anxiety is the main

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Speaker 6: cause that young people are saying, particularly what are they

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Speaker 6: going to say to their friends when they do walk

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Speaker 6: back into school?

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Speaker 2: Right, Okay, So it's as much about the re entry

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Speaker 2: after absence as it is about the absence itself.

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Speaker 6: That's right, Because they don't want to stand out. No

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Speaker 6: one wants to stand out, particularly in a way that's

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Speaker 6: a little bit embarrassing because anxiety is tyfficult to talk about.

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Speaker 6: But it's on the rise generally across the population, including

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Speaker 6: adults teachers. I know you talked about that in your podcast,

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Speaker 6: about the worries that teachers have, the struggles that they're

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Speaker 6: having their humans, and you know young people are no different.

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Speaker 2: And how much demand is there for your service then

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Speaker 2: at the moment.

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Speaker 6: A huge demand. I'm very busy, and I'm happy to

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Speaker 6: be busy, but it's just an indication that there are

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Speaker 6: a lot of young people out there really struggling. I'm

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Speaker 6: offering something a little bit different to a lot of

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Speaker 6: kids have tried counseling before, it hasn't kind of worked

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Speaker 6: face to face with a psychologist, and I'm trying to

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Speaker 6: offer something a little bit more engaging, a bit more

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Speaker 6: youth friendly. So there's a huge demand. Lots of mums

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Speaker 6: are calling up saying, oh, I can't get my kid

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Speaker 6: to bed, I can't get them to sleep, I can't

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Speaker 6: get them out the door. And there's the mums that

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Speaker 6: are ringing up on their child's behalf.

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Speaker 2: Of course, and so there was a Senate inquiry into this.

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Speaker 2: You made some recommendations to the inquiry. What systemic changes

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Speaker 2: do you think we need to make to better support

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Speaker 2: younger people to get back to school.

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Speaker 6: Well, the recommendations I made to the Senate Inquiry were

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Speaker 6: very similar to the recommendations that came out of the

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Speaker 6: inquiry in recommendations that came out, and they really aligned

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Speaker 6: with what I was hoping would come out of the inquiry,

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Speaker 6: and that is a better understanding of a problem, perhaps

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Speaker 6: a rethinking of what school refusal is and what it

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Speaker 6: isn't and helping young people when they start having school

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Speaker 6: attendance difficulties from within the school. So a better response

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Speaker 6: from within the school, perhaps more flexible response from the schools,

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Speaker 6: from school leaders, from teachers, and from well being working together,

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Speaker 6: being a bit more family sensitive and understanding of the

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Speaker 6: reasons why, picking up the problem early, and offering support

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Speaker 6: both at school and for the family outside of school.

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Speaker 3: So I think through the duration of this podcast, we've

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Speaker 3: heard there are many different perspectives on this, many different

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Speaker 3: recommendations about kind of the best way forward on this,

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Speaker 3: What happens now? What do you do with all of

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Speaker 3: these perspectives and voices and experiences Where to from here?

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Speaker 2: So the Senate Inquiry that we've covered Today has made

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Speaker 2: a report with its recommendations. The government will now discuss

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Speaker 2: that report before it finalizes its response, but Education Minister

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Speaker 2: Jason Clair has made the point that the negative impact

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Speaker 2: of school refusal is clear. Shadow Education Minister Sarah Henderson

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Speaker 2: has also called on the government to accept all the recommendations.

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Speaker 2: Before we wrap up for today, Zara, I did just

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Speaker 2: want to share one more voice note with you. We've

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Speaker 2: heard from a teacher, a parent, someone who's working with

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Speaker 2: young people to help them with school refusal. But why

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Speaker 2: don't we end this episode with the perspective of someone

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Speaker 2: who's experienced school refusal themselves.

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Speaker 7: I think one of the main issues to do with

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Speaker 7: school refusal is is students don't feel hurt in schools.

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Speaker 7: There are restrictions on being able to express yourself for

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Speaker 7: like no reason. During my school experience, I went to

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Speaker 7: three different schools, and I found consistently through all three,

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Speaker 7: I was told what like I can wear, how I

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Speaker 7: can appear like? I felt like I kind of had

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Speaker 7: to fit into this mold of what a student should be.

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Speaker 7: A lot of my friends, including myself, left school before

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Speaker 7: graduation due to pressure of having to fit into that mold.

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Speaker 7: I think if we listen to students and actually spoke

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Speaker 7: to them about what they need to be able to

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Speaker 7: be supported and comfortable in using these resources, to be

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Speaker 7: able to come to school and to function properly, the

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Speaker 7: conversation is we had with them instead of with other

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Speaker 7: people who don't actually know what's going on inside students' minds.

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Speaker 3: Thanks so much for joining us on the podcast this week.

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Speaker 3: Fair to say, there's been quite a variety in the

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Speaker 3: topics that we have, father building a business, to teachers striking,

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Speaker 3: and everything in between. If you liked what you had

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Speaker 3: today or any other day, we would really love it

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Speaker 3: if you could leave us five stars wherever you're listening

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Speaker 3: right now. Thanks so much for your support, and have

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Speaker 3: a great weekend. Empt