WEBVTT - Summer Starter Series: Making Saving Easier 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:00.960 Hello. 0:00:01.520 --> 0:00:05.000 My name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud yr the 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:08.720 Order Kerney Whoalbury and a waddery woman. And before we 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:11.399 get started on She's on the Money podcast, I would 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:14.480 like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:18.639 which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country, acknowledging 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:22.520 the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming through. 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:27.120 As this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:30.520 the storytelling of you to make a difference for today 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:32.599 and lasting impact for tomorrow. 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:34.080 Let's get into it. 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:58.720 She's on the Money, She's on the Money. Hello, and 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:01.920 welcome to we bone episode of She's on the Money, 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:06.200 the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom. My name 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:09.759 is Victoria Devine, and today we have a very special 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:12.399 bonus episode of the show that is looking at the 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:17.840 psychology of savings and we also have a very special guest, 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:22.120 my friend. Doctor Lilly Susman is a social scientist and 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:27.080 the chief strategy officer at Wiser. Lily's PhD research at 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:32.880 Harvard University was on decision making, behavioral economics and psychology, 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:36.679 and foreign policy decision making throughout her career, Lily has 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:40.280 been guided by a purpose to understand and address profound 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:45.800 human flourishing, including financial, relational, and psychological wellbeing. She is 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:50.120 supporting Australians to make effective and incremental changes in aligning 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:53.640 everyday money behaviors to deeper values. And I cannot think 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:56.040 of something that aligns more to She's on the money 0:01:56.080 --> 0:02:01.160 than doctor Lily Susman. As Chief Strategy Officer, Lily conceptualized 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.840 Wiser Today from scratch and we are or I am 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:07.480 super thrilled to have her here with us today. 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:09.640 Lily, welcome to the show. 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.680 Oh thank you, Victoria. You know that I'm a massive 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:17.560 fan of this community. I'm super passionate about what we're 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:21.839 talking about and everything this community cares about. So it's 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:24.720 really wonderful to be here today talking with you about 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:25.520 financial health. 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:28.600 I feel like I am so excited to welcome you 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.320 to the show because this might sound really new to 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:34.720 everybody listening, but you have been slaving away over this 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:38.320 for literally years and I even got the opportunity to 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:41.600 sign an NDA and be brought into the loop literally 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:43.799 more than a year ago to talk to you about 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:46.200 this and you know, play a little role in it. 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.080 And I'm just so glad that it is launched, and 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:52.560 I'm just honestly so excited because I one hundred percent 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:56.359 identify with everything that drives you so lily. Let's start 0:02:56.440 --> 0:03:00.000 off with money stress. You describe money and financial stress 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:02.920 is quote one of the last taboos. Why do you 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:05.560 think it's still so hard for us to open up 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:08.079 about financial stress or talk about money with our friends 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:08.639 and family? 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:12.560 Oh yeah, such a good question. Money is such a 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:16.800 big taboo in our culture. National surveys have shown that 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:20.440 we're actually more comfortable talking with our friends about virtually 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:26.359 anything else, like politics, religion, even you know, things like addiction, race, 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:30.760 marital discord, sex. We'd actually go to great length to 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:34.520 avoid the subject. There was a survey done that showed 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.080 that almost a third of us would rather sit through 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:40.000 two hours of traffic or speak in front of a 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:44.280 large audience than have to discuss this taboo subject of money. 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:49.160 And it's crazy because the average person is secretly worrying 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.040 about it multiple times a day and the evidence shows 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.720 that nearly half of Australians are regularly stressing about money. 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:57.600 But it's just so awkward to bring up. 0:03:57.680 --> 0:03:57.880 Right. 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:01.080 Imagine, one minute, you're with friends and you're laughing over 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:04.680 drinks and then the next minute someone brings up the 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:08.040 cost of the evening out or their savings plan, and 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:10.760 the mood just like, ooh, just plants and chill. 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:14.280 Not in my house, my friend, never not in my house. 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:16.440 I feel like it's funny because you said people would 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:19.239 rather the sit in traffic, and the community you're talking 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:21.640 to right now literally sit in traffic and listen to 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:24.799 money podcasts. So we might not be able to super 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:27.480 resonate with that, but I feel like every other Australian, 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:29.640 though that's not in the shehes on the money community 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:32.120 is like I would literally rather the sit in traffic, 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:34.520 and then our community like, oh, when we're sitting in traffic, 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:37.320 that's what we're doing exactly. 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.159 But that's what makes this community so special, right because 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.360 we're together breaking the taboo. But I think, you know, 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:48.240 the surveys around the average person and their level of 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:52.400 comfort talking about money socially is very, very low, and 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:56.279 it's so awkward and it feels hard to talk about 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.719 because you know, we live in a society where sometimes 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:02.880 we're made to feel like or we have this implicit 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:07.080 norm that our self worth is somehow related or even 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:09.839 based on how much money we have, how rich we look, 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:13.680 And there's a lot of shame still around not having 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.680 as much money as those around us, fearing that we're 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.720 somehow maybe not as valued or we don't belong if 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.159 we can't keep up financially, and just makes it hard 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.240 to talk about with friends, whether you're the friend with 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:28.520 more money or the friend with less money. 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:30.680 Why do you think we still like that though? 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:34.200 I just genuinely, you know, obviously I'm in a very 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:37.360 privileged position, but like, why is it still so awkward? 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:39.120 Like why are we feeling this way? 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:41.440 Yeah, it's such a good question. I just think there's 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:44.680 this implicit norm that we've been raised with, right, that 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:48.640 money equals worth, but it's not. And I think there's 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:52.360 also this second hidden norm that somehow we're sort of 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:56.440 responsible for how we're doing financially, like it's our fault 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:59.920 if things aren't going well. But actually, you know, both 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:05.080 externally and internally, externally, there are systemic reasons outside of 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:08.520 our control. And you know, there are things like the 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:10.640 gender pay gap, the things you talk about a lot, 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:13.279 the fact that more women do caring professions, which often 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:18.120 pay less, Challenges from the changing macroeconomic environment, are family histories, 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:22.680 unexpected stuff like COVID, job loss, separation, illness. You know, 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:25.120 so many things happen to us we don't control that 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:29.279 they can impact our financial lives. And then internally, we 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.840 were never taught about money habits or the psychology behind them, 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:36.640 and so our money behaviors are typically an autopilot and 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.920 they're not our fault because of the way our brains work, 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:44.320 and so we have to experience sort of modeling through 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:49.600 all of that, and we're often blaming ourselves unfairly, feeling embarrassed, 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:53.479 feeling responsible. And who wants to talk about that with friends? 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:56.240 I mean, I do you do? We need to? It's 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:57.520 so important, I do. 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:00.480 We're really cool though, we are so cool. I feel 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:03.640 like we excelled at school and had no friends and 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:04.920 this is where we've ended up. 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:08.520 And that's how we found each other. 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:14.160 Well, you know what, I think, not having friends earlier, 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:15.400 when we were nerding. 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:16.720 I was busy building this. 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:19.720 You know what's never too late. And I think you're 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:22.440 an expert connector and you're you know, this is a 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:26.080 community where people belong and can break the taboo. And 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:30.640 I think the antidote to that money being taboo is 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:34.320 so key because you know, we all say the truth 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:37.840 will set you free, right, and we're also hardwired as 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:41.600 social beings for connection and belonging, so we don't want 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:46.720 to struggle in silence privately, but we have to just 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:51.000 recognize there is still this taboo that money somehow equates 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:54.640 with worth, and that we unfairly blame ourselves, and it's 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:58.640 just really important to see start seeing money differently, that 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:01.600 you know, it's a recent to live life how we 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:04.760 want and that's all it is, and we can change 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:05.559 it and make it better. 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.880 Yeah. No, absolutely, you touched on something before that I 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:11.520 obviously hop on about in our community. 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:13.720 You said it might be how we grew up. 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:15.760 And a really big part of the Shehes on the 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:19.440 Money message is sharing the importance of really understanding deeply 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.440 your money story and then making decisions that really align 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:24.520 with your values. I feel like my community has heard 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.840 me say that a million times. I feel like every 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:29.120 question I get asked, I'm like, well, it depends on 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.600 your values. And then when money stories are introduced to us, 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:35.120 we seem to be shook by this concept because we've 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:37.720 never heard of it before, So like, why do you 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.440 think that is, And why do you think that not 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.880 many of us know how important our money stories are 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:45.520 to understand deeply? 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:51.000 Yeah, you know, psychology and managing our health and behavior, 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:55.160 they're so foundational to our well being, but they're not 0:08:56.000 --> 0:09:00.120 taught in school at all, and exploring our values and 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:03.000 our behavior in the psychology behind them is just not 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:07.080 something we naturally do, right, And we just talked about 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.240 how money is still taboo for so many of us 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:14.680 and hushed up and the culture has completely misrepresented money 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:19.080 as about being about numbers, you know, so what would 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:22.440 you know our beliefs, emotions, or values have to do 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:24.640 with it? You know, if you want to get on 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:29.000 top of your finances, the things that were and often 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:33.640 still are considered necessary are things like knowledge and practical skills. 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:37.440 Like people talk about budgeting, spending less, saving more, investing, 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:40.200 growing your wealth. Here's how you do it. But the 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:44.920 problem is that knowledge is necessary but not sufficient for 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:48.360 behavior change. So when we're struggling or we want to 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:50.800 do better, we're used to thinking, Okay, well, what more 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:54.240 information do I need, rather than going and try to 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:58.760 figure out what's causing the struggle, like what's actually underneath 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:03.080 what I makesperiencing, and what's the real solution. The real 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:09.000 solution is always around. It's not about being more rational 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:12.840 or more massy, or getting more money knowledge. It's actually 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:17.480 about getting clear on our psychology and our habits and 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:21.079 the underlying stuff that's happening in our brains that's behind 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.600 it all. So we need to understand the context that's 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:28.600 creating the behaviors and the feelings, and we need to 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:31.520 get into our values and money stories, none of which 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:35.880 happens on its own, right, Yeah, never, We just are 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:37.440 not taught to do that. We don't do that in 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:40.720 every day lives. So it's no surprise that we don't 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:44.040 understand money. We don't understand why we're managing and spending 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.080 money and thinking about money the way that we do. 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:49.920 But luckily, there's more and more conversations like this one 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:53.160 in our culture that's really having an impact, and there's 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:56.960 growing recognition of why is it that our values in 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:00.360 our psychology is so important and what's the relationship between 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:02.160 you know, what we see when we open up our 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:06.240 banking app and transaction balances and our habits which are 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:08.800 often hidden, and then psychology underneath that. 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:12.160 Yeah, it's crazy, I feel like so many of us 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.520 have grown up with this underlying assumption that one dollar 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:19.679 plus two dollars equals three dollars, and that's how money works. 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:23.840 And really it's actually about behaviors and thoughts and feelings 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:27.720 and the transactions that those dollars create. That's what money 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.120 is about. I just think so many times we just 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:32.720 think about the actual coins or the actual notes, and 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:35.840 that's actually not what money is. In our society, it 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:39.400 drives so many different things. And we know, or I 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.880 know deeply that you are so wildly passionate about the 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:46.040 brain and psychology and behavioral change, and you mentioned it 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:47.719 just before, so I want to know, like, how do 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:50.400 we change our habits? How do we actually do this 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:53.400 because so many of us find it so hard? 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:53.960 Why? 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:57.440 Yeah, yeah, well, you know, I think that's such an 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.480 important question, not just in you know, our area of 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:03.760 financial health, but of course health overall, right, and preventive health. 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:07.000 Behavior change is a holy grail of preventive health. And 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.440 the thing about behavior change is that it's definitely possible, 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:13.280 but it's not easy. It doesn't happen naturally. So our 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:17.800 brains are designed to conserve energy and create routines so 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:21.520 that we're not constantly making unnecessary decisions, right, and that 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.160 means our brains are designed to go on autopilot. So 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:27.160 that's what habits are, things that we do without thinking 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:29.439 too much about them, and that is not our fault. 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:32.520 It's literally how our brains are designed and have evolved. 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:36.400 But most of us do have habits that we've developed 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:40.000 from the past that are on autopilot, and they may 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.439 have been shaped over years or decades, but they may 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:44.920 no longer be helpful to us, and we can't really 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:49.800 see that. And every habit that we have is a 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:51.880 habit we have in real life. It happens to be 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:54.640 that we spend money on this habit, but you know, 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:56.720 it's a habit that is in the context of our lives, 0:12:56.760 --> 0:13:00.640 like you know, whether it's takeaway or taking uber or 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:05.120 online shopping. You know, every habit that we have typically 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:08.200 adds up to hundreds or thousands, or even ten thousands 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:10.880 in the course of a year. So for example, like 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:14.559 a very common habit like to lattes a day adds 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:17.920 up to over three thousand dollars a year, or one 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:20.760 hundred dollars of takeaway a week adds up to over 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:24.680 five thousand dollars a year, and very easily online shopping 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.360 habits might add up to fifteen thousand dollars a year. Right, 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:31.640 So a couple of small habitual behaviors that are on autopilot, 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:35.200 that are mostly hidden to us because they're designed that 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.600 way by our brains is actually the difference between having 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:41.679 a healthy buffer and low stress and having a lot 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:45.559 of financial stress and maybe feeling overwhelmed. So I think 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:48.920 the first starting point is understanding that established habits we 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:52.560 have are not our fault, right, that's how our brains 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:55.240 design them. But if we want to see more clearly 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:58.120 what those habits are and then change them, we have 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:03.680 to go through a deliberate behavior change process. And behavior 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.280 change is not impossible, as I said in Thinking, but 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.120 it's not easy because we can do it when we're 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.520 supported and we do it using the right methodology, which 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:16.040 is working with how the brain likes to change. So 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.360 we have established neuropathways, and we have habitual thoughts and 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:23.920 emotional responses that are mostly unseen to us, and we 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:28.160 can start building new alternative neural pathways and changing our 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:31.400 automatic thoughts and emotions. If we start working with a 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:33.520 brain in the right way, we have to go through 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:37.720 a process of frequent but enjoyable practice, you know, build 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:39.840 a new neural pathway that ends in the right kind 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.240 of dopamine hit. And that's what we've been working on, 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:46.440 and that's something that technology can actually help with in 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:50.920 order to give you that easy practice on a daily 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:54.320 basis or frequent basis that makes behavior change much easier. 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:57.360 So I think the overall point is just it's not 0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:00.080 going to happen naturally. You know, we're not designed to 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:04.240 to change our behavior naturally. But can it be done. Absolutely, 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:04.680 it can be. 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:07.520 You mentioned before, like their habits that were formed that 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:09.840 might not be serving us anymore. And I feel like 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:13.040 in our community something that we're all really good at. 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:14.880 We don't want to admit this though, but we're really 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:18.440 good at. It's kind of crucifying ourselves for the habits 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.520 that we have. We're like, oh, my gosh, I'm so silly, 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:22.560 or I'm so dumb, or I cannot believe I did this. 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:25.400 Oh it's the worst, and we bury our heads in 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:25.920 the sand. 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.600 And I say that in a way that isn't me 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:31.160 going this is what my community does, like I do 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.640 it too. I feel like it's innately human to always 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:38.440 crucify past us for decisions we made when we didn't 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:40.800 have the tools in resources available to us to make 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:44.479 the decision that we would have today. But from your perspective, 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:47.320 like you're literally a doctor in this space. You are 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:51.400 one of the smartest women I have ever met. Talk 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:53.760 to me about how important it is to have a 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.680 level of self compassion for yourself and like, how do 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.360 we know when to be tough but also when to 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:02.000 be really cld to ourselves, because I think that we're 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:06.400 really bad at doing that sometimes, just as the human race, 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.720 like not even just as women or just as you know, 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:11.760 the shes on the money community. I feel like each 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:15.280 and every single person crucifies themselves for past mistakes. 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:18.240 Oh my god, we do, we do. I think it's 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:21.440 a very human thing to do to be tough in ourselves, 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:25.280 and especially it makes sense in light of what we're 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:29.760 talking about earlier, how we feel like we're responsible for 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:32.920 everything that's happened. You know, even if that's not true. 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:36.200 You know, we are not the architects of evolution and 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.080 how our brain was built, nor did we choose our 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:42.040 families of origin and our upbringings, and you know, our 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:45.560 education systems or the way the system is shaped, like 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:49.120 we're actually not responsible in that way, and yet we 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:51.880 have this notion that, Okay, you know, I feel like 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:53.280 I need to be tough on myself. I want to 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:55.920 get better at something, so I can't afford to be 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.000 self compassionate. If I'm nice to myself, then I'm being 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:02.600 self indulgent, I'm being lazy, you know. And we feel 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:06.280 like being tough on yourself, you know, that's what discipline's about. 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:07.800 You know, I need to be disciplined, I need to 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:10.480 be tough on myself. But actually it's another one of 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:17.280 these misunderstandings because we mistake discipline with self criticism. They 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:20.679 are actually not the same thing at all. All the 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:26.440 research on behavior change tells us that being self critical 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:30.000 actually is detrimental to improving. It does not help you 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:34.080 be disciplined and get better. The most helpful forms of 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:39.200 discipline actually involve kindness and self compassion and positive reinforcement. 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:42.639 So it's interesting because when it comes to money, you know, 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:45.120 we talked about it, how is taboo? It's misunderstood. We 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:49.119 feel responsible and there's all these kind of you know, 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:53.960 misconceptions about it, and we feel like it's our fault. 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:58.840 But it's actually really important to start with self compassion 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:05.199 and start with making emotionally safe space for yourself to 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:11.480 honestly acknowledge possible shortcomings, but without worrying too much about judgment. 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:15.240 Because that emotional safe space we give ourselves is what 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:19.600 starts the courage to make changes and one of the 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.640 key things for me to understand, you know, and I'm 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.360 very much with you, and I think this is not 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:28.840 just something that applies to women, though it's certainly been 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:32.120 well documented as something that applies to women, but also 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.560 to men too, which is like negative self talk, right, 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:37.840 It's just sort of runs in your brain and there's 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:39.920 all this negative self talk sometimes that you don't even 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:43.560 realize is there. But the specific language we use in 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:47.359 our self talk makes a huge difference. Right. If my 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.480 self talk when I'm stressed about money is oh, I'm 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.920 just so irresponsible, or like, oh god, I'm hopeless with money, 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:56.760 I'm such an idiot, you know that language that's a 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:59.680 focus on the self rather than a focus on behavior. 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:02.639 A focus on behavior is something really specific about a 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:05.520 specific behavior. It's like, you know, I bought around when 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:08.200 I didn't need to last night, I bought the suit 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:11.520 to feel more confident at work, but I'm not sure 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:15.280 it's helped me. I still feel funny at work. And 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:18.280 that's a focus on behavior. Right. We can have the 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:22.199 same action, right, which is like, oh, I overspent and 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.320 I'm feeling bad. But what's my self talk? Is it 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:27.600 focusing on myself in a negative way or is it 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:31.560 just focusing on the behavior? Because one focusing on behavior 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:35.480 is actually helpful for behavior change and makes sense for 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:38.280 you know, quote unquote discipline and being tough on yourself 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:42.080 in a positive way, versus the self talk that focused 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.439 on the self is not helpful for behavior change, and 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:49.080 it actually gets in the way of discipline and being 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:52.000 tough on self and improving. So self talk is super 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:55.280 important and self love and compassion is a starting point 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:55.920 for change. 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:59.119 It makes us so much sense because saying something like 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:02.600 oh my gosh, the worst, like that's not constructive. It 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:06.600 doesn't actually create this ability to you know, find a 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:08.880 different behavior. Right, you just got I'm the worst, full 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.320 stop end of story, Like what are you even talking about? 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.159 Whereas if you go this behavior is the worst, you go, 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:15.800 all right, well, what am I going to do about that? 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:18.199 And I feel like it's that next step and it 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.560 just makes sense, and so many of us are guilty 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:24.000 for it. And I was having this conversation the other 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:26.240 day Lily with a girlfriend and she's like, yeah, I know, 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.280 you keep telling me to do these things because obviously 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:32.359 I'm not just passionate about money on she's on the money. 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:35.280 I'm passionate when I'm drinking wine on a Saturday night 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:37.800 with my girlfriends. I'm like, oh my gosh, so this 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:39.520 hot tip. They're just like, Victoria. 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:40.119 Stop. 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:43.480 But I was recommending to a girlfriend who is really 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:45.399 harsh on herself the other day. I was like, why 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:47.200 don't you just journal it out? Like, why don't you 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:49.719 write all of these things down, because once you've written 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:52.480 it down, it just kind of stares you in the 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:55.480 face and is a lot easier to combat. And she's like, oh, 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:58.239 but Victoria, journaling is so lame, And I was like, 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:01.200 you need to move away from that, because as much 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:04.399 as I agree like journaling is not for everybody, it 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:07.679 can actually be a really constructive activity to go, you 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:09.840 know what, Pragmatically, I'm just going to write down all 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:11.800 these behaviors that I'm doing that I would like to 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:14.960 reframe or change, because then you can overlay what you've 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:17.240 been saying, Lily and go, well, is that actually about 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:19.440 the behavior or is that about me? Because if it's 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:21.920 about me, that's not helpful and we need to remove 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:24.199 that from our language. And that's going to give you 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:28.000 the ability to just directly see whether your negative self 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:30.439 talk is a really big part of your narrative or not, 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:32.720 because I think so many of us will go, oh, 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:35.919 I don't have negative self talk until you actually have 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:38.439 it staring at you on a piece of paper in 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:42.080 front of you. Sometimes you just don't even realize, and 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:45.439 it can be so detrimental. I promise the second you 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:48.040 realize that you are being negative towards yourself and can 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:51.440 reframe that or rephrase the way that you communicate with yourself, 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:54.400 you become such a happier human. And it makes me 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:56.440