1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:00,960 Speaker 1: Hello. 2 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 2: My name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud yr the 3 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 2: Order Kerney Whoalbury and a waddery woman. And before we 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,399 Speaker 2: get started on She's on the Money podcast, I would 5 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 2: like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of 6 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,639 Speaker 2: which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country, acknowledging 7 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 2: the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming through. 8 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 2: As this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and 9 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 2: the storytelling of you to make a difference for today 10 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:32,599 Speaker 2: and lasting impact for tomorrow. 11 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: Let's get into it. 12 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 3: She's on the Money, She's on the Money. Hello, and 13 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 3: welcome to we bone episode of She's on the Money, 14 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 3: the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom. My name 15 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 3: is Victoria Devine, and today we have a very special 16 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 3: bonus episode of the show that is looking at the 17 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 3: psychology of savings and we also have a very special guest, 18 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 3: my friend. Doctor Lilly Susman is a social scientist and 19 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 3: the chief strategy officer at Wiser. Lily's PhD research at 20 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 3: Harvard University was on decision making, behavioral economics and psychology, 21 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 3: and foreign policy decision making throughout her career, Lily has 22 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 3: been guided by a purpose to understand and address profound 23 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 3: human flourishing, including financial, relational, and psychological wellbeing. She is 24 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 3: supporting Australians to make effective and incremental changes in aligning 25 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 3: everyday money behaviors to deeper values. And I cannot think 26 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 3: of something that aligns more to She's on the money 27 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 3: than doctor Lily Susman. As Chief Strategy Officer, Lily conceptualized 28 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 3: Wiser Today from scratch and we are or I am 29 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 3: super thrilled to have her here with us today. 30 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: Lily, welcome to the show. 31 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 4: Oh thank you, Victoria. You know that I'm a massive 32 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 4: fan of this community. I'm super passionate about what we're 33 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,839 Speaker 4: talking about and everything this community cares about. So it's 34 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 4: really wonderful to be here today talking with you about 35 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 4: financial health. 36 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 3: I feel like I am so excited to welcome you 37 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 3: to the show because this might sound really new to 38 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 3: everybody listening, but you have been slaving away over this 39 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 3: for literally years and I even got the opportunity to 40 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 3: sign an NDA and be brought into the loop literally 41 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 3: more than a year ago to talk to you about 42 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 3: this and you know, play a little role in it. 43 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 3: And I'm just so glad that it is launched, and 44 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 3: I'm just honestly so excited because I one hundred percent 45 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 3: identify with everything that drives you so lily. Let's start 46 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 3: off with money stress. You describe money and financial stress 47 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 3: is quote one of the last taboos. Why do you 48 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 3: think it's still so hard for us to open up 49 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 3: about financial stress or talk about money with our friends 50 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 3: and family? 51 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, such a good question. Money is such a 52 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 4: big taboo in our culture. National surveys have shown that 53 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 4: we're actually more comfortable talking with our friends about virtually 54 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 4: anything else, like politics, religion, even you know, things like addiction, race, 55 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 4: marital discord, sex. We'd actually go to great length to 56 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 4: avoid the subject. There was a survey done that showed 57 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 4: that almost a third of us would rather sit through 58 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 4: two hours of traffic or speak in front of a 59 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 4: large audience than have to discuss this taboo subject of money. 60 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 4: And it's crazy because the average person is secretly worrying 61 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 4: about it multiple times a day and the evidence shows 62 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 4: that nearly half of Australians are regularly stressing about money. 63 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 4: But it's just so awkward to bring up. 64 00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 2: Right. 65 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 4: Imagine, one minute, you're with friends and you're laughing over 66 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 4: drinks and then the next minute someone brings up the 67 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 4: cost of the evening out or their savings plan, and 68 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 4: the mood just like, ooh, just plants and chill. 69 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: Not in my house, my friend, never not in my house. 70 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 3: I feel like it's funny because you said people would 71 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,239 Speaker 3: rather the sit in traffic, and the community you're talking 72 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 3: to right now literally sit in traffic and listen to 73 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,799 Speaker 3: money podcasts. So we might not be able to super 74 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 3: resonate with that, but I feel like every other Australian, 75 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 3: though that's not in the shehes on the money community 76 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 3: is like I would literally rather the sit in traffic, 77 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 3: and then our community like, oh, when we're sitting in traffic, 78 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 3: that's what we're doing exactly. 79 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 4: But that's what makes this community so special, right because 80 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 4: we're together breaking the taboo. But I think, you know, 81 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 4: the surveys around the average person and their level of 82 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 4: comfort talking about money socially is very, very low, and 83 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 4: it's so awkward and it feels hard to talk about 84 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 4: because you know, we live in a society where sometimes 85 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 4: we're made to feel like or we have this implicit 86 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 4: norm that our self worth is somehow related or even 87 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 4: based on how much money we have, how rich we look, 88 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 4: And there's a lot of shame still around not having 89 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 4: as much money as those around us, fearing that we're 90 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 4: somehow maybe not as valued or we don't belong if 91 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 4: we can't keep up financially, and just makes it hard 92 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 4: to talk about with friends, whether you're the friend with 93 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 4: more money or the friend with less money. 94 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: Why do you think we still like that though? 95 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 3: I just genuinely, you know, obviously I'm in a very 96 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 3: privileged position, but like, why is it still so awkward? 97 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: Like why are we feeling this way? 98 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's such a good question. I just think there's 99 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 4: this implicit norm that we've been raised with, right, that 100 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 4: money equals worth, but it's not. And I think there's 101 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 4: also this second hidden norm that somehow we're sort of 102 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 4: responsible for how we're doing financially, like it's our fault 103 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 4: if things aren't going well. But actually, you know, both 104 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 4: externally and internally, externally, there are systemic reasons outside of 105 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 4: our control. And you know, there are things like the 106 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 4: gender pay gap, the things you talk about a lot, 107 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 4: the fact that more women do caring professions, which often 108 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 4: pay less, Challenges from the changing macroeconomic environment, are family histories, 109 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 4: unexpected stuff like COVID, job loss, separation, illness. You know, 110 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 4: so many things happen to us we don't control that 111 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 4: they can impact our financial lives. And then internally, we 112 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 4: were never taught about money habits or the psychology behind them, 113 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 4: and so our money behaviors are typically an autopilot and 114 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 4: they're not our fault because of the way our brains work, 115 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 4: and so we have to experience sort of modeling through 116 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 4: all of that, and we're often blaming ourselves unfairly, feeling embarrassed, 117 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 4: feeling responsible. And who wants to talk about that with friends? 118 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 4: I mean, I do you do? We need to? It's 119 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 4: so important, I do. 120 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 3: We're really cool though, we are so cool. I feel 121 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 3: like we excelled at school and had no friends and 122 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 3: this is where we've ended up. 123 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: And that's how we found each other. 124 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 4: Well, you know what, I think, not having friends earlier, 125 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 4: when we were nerding. 126 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: I was busy building this. 127 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 4: You know what's never too late. And I think you're 128 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 4: an expert connector and you're you know, this is a 129 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 4: community where people belong and can break the taboo. And 130 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 4: I think the antidote to that money being taboo is 131 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 4: so key because you know, we all say the truth 132 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 4: will set you free, right, and we're also hardwired as 133 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 4: social beings for connection and belonging, so we don't want 134 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 4: to struggle in silence privately, but we have to just 135 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 4: recognize there is still this taboo that money somehow equates 136 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 4: with worth, and that we unfairly blame ourselves, and it's 137 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 4: just really important to see start seeing money differently, that 138 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 4: you know, it's a recent to live life how we 139 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 4: want and that's all it is, and we can change 140 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:05,559 Speaker 4: it and make it better. 141 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. No, absolutely, you touched on something before that I 142 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 3: obviously hop on about in our community. 143 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: You said it might be how we grew up. 144 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 3: And a really big part of the Shehes on the 145 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 3: Money message is sharing the importance of really understanding deeply 146 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 3: your money story and then making decisions that really align 147 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 3: with your values. I feel like my community has heard 148 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 3: me say that a million times. I feel like every 149 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 3: question I get asked, I'm like, well, it depends on 150 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 3: your values. And then when money stories are introduced to us, 151 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 3: we seem to be shook by this concept because we've 152 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 3: never heard of it before, So like, why do you 153 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 3: think that is, And why do you think that not 154 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 3: many of us know how important our money stories are 155 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 3: to understand deeply? 156 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, psychology and managing our health and behavior, 157 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 4: they're so foundational to our well being, but they're not 158 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 4: taught in school at all, and exploring our values and 159 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 4: our behavior in the psychology behind them is just not 160 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 4: something we naturally do, right, And we just talked about 161 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 4: how money is still taboo for so many of us 162 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 4: and hushed up and the culture has completely misrepresented money 163 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 4: as about being about numbers, you know, so what would 164 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 4: you know our beliefs, emotions, or values have to do 165 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 4: with it? You know, if you want to get on 166 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 4: top of your finances, the things that were and often 167 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 4: still are considered necessary are things like knowledge and practical skills. 168 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 4: Like people talk about budgeting, spending less, saving more, investing, 169 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 4: growing your wealth. Here's how you do it. But the 170 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 4: problem is that knowledge is necessary but not sufficient for 171 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 4: behavior change. So when we're struggling or we want to 172 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 4: do better, we're used to thinking, Okay, well, what more 173 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 4: information do I need, rather than going and try to 174 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 4: figure out what's causing the struggle, like what's actually underneath 175 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 4: what I makesperiencing, and what's the real solution. The real 176 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 4: solution is always around. It's not about being more rational 177 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 4: or more massy, or getting more money knowledge. It's actually 178 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 4: about getting clear on our psychology and our habits and 179 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 4: the underlying stuff that's happening in our brains that's behind 180 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 4: it all. So we need to understand the context that's 181 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 4: creating the behaviors and the feelings, and we need to 182 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 4: get into our values and money stories, none of which 183 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 4: happens on its own, right, Yeah, never, We just are 184 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 4: not taught to do that. We don't do that in 185 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 4: every day lives. So it's no surprise that we don't 186 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 4: understand money. We don't understand why we're managing and spending 187 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 4: money and thinking about money the way that we do. 188 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 4: But luckily, there's more and more conversations like this one 189 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 4: in our culture that's really having an impact, and there's 190 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 4: growing recognition of why is it that our values in 191 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 4: our psychology is so important and what's the relationship between 192 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 4: you know, what we see when we open up our 193 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 4: banking app and transaction balances and our habits which are 194 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 4: often hidden, and then psychology underneath that. 195 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's crazy, I feel like so many of us 196 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 3: have grown up with this underlying assumption that one dollar 197 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 3: plus two dollars equals three dollars, and that's how money works. 198 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 3: And really it's actually about behaviors and thoughts and feelings 199 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 3: and the transactions that those dollars create. That's what money 200 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 3: is about. I just think so many times we just 201 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 3: think about the actual coins or the actual notes, and 202 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 3: that's actually not what money is. In our society, it 203 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 3: drives so many different things. And we know, or I 204 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 3: know deeply that you are so wildly passionate about the 205 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 3: brain and psychology and behavioral change, and you mentioned it 206 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:47,719 Speaker 3: just before, so I want to know, like, how do 207 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 3: we change our habits? How do we actually do this 208 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 3: because so many of us find it so hard? 209 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: Why? 210 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well, you know, I think that's such an 211 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 4: important question, not just in you know, our area of 212 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 4: financial health, but of course health overall, right, and preventive health. 213 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 4: Behavior change is a holy grail of preventive health. And 214 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 4: the thing about behavior change is that it's definitely possible, 215 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 4: but it's not easy. It doesn't happen naturally. So our 216 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 4: brains are designed to conserve energy and create routines so 217 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 4: that we're not constantly making unnecessary decisions, right, and that 218 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 4: means our brains are designed to go on autopilot. So 219 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 4: that's what habits are, things that we do without thinking 220 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 4: too much about them, and that is not our fault. 221 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 4: It's literally how our brains are designed and have evolved. 222 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 4: But most of us do have habits that we've developed 223 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 4: from the past that are on autopilot, and they may 224 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 4: have been shaped over years or decades, but they may 225 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 4: no longer be helpful to us, and we can't really 226 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 4: see that. And every habit that we have is a 227 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 4: habit we have in real life. It happens to be 228 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 4: that we spend money on this habit, but you know, 229 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 4: it's a habit that is in the context of our lives, 230 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 4: like you know, whether it's takeaway or taking uber or 231 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 4: online shopping. You know, every habit that we have typically 232 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 4: adds up to hundreds or thousands, or even ten thousands 233 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 4: in the course of a year. So for example, like 234 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 4: a very common habit like to lattes a day adds 235 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 4: up to over three thousand dollars a year, or one 236 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 4: hundred dollars of takeaway a week adds up to over 237 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 4: five thousand dollars a year, and very easily online shopping 238 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 4: habits might add up to fifteen thousand dollars a year. Right, 239 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 4: So a couple of small habitual behaviors that are on autopilot, 240 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 4: that are mostly hidden to us because they're designed that 241 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 4: way by our brains is actually the difference between having 242 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 4: a healthy buffer and low stress and having a lot 243 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 4: of financial stress and maybe feeling overwhelmed. So I think 244 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 4: the first starting point is understanding that established habits we 245 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 4: have are not our fault, right, that's how our brains 246 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 4: design them. But if we want to see more clearly 247 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 4: what those habits are and then change them, we have 248 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 4: to go through a deliberate behavior change process. And behavior 249 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 4: change is not impossible, as I said in Thinking, but 250 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 4: it's not easy because we can do it when we're 251 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 4: supported and we do it using the right methodology, which 252 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 4: is working with how the brain likes to change. So 253 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 4: we have established neuropathways, and we have habitual thoughts and 254 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 4: emotional responses that are mostly unseen to us, and we 255 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 4: can start building new alternative neural pathways and changing our 256 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 4: automatic thoughts and emotions. If we start working with a 257 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 4: brain in the right way, we have to go through 258 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 4: a process of frequent but enjoyable practice, you know, build 259 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 4: a new neural pathway that ends in the right kind 260 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 4: of dopamine hit. And that's what we've been working on, 261 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 4: and that's something that technology can actually help with in 262 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 4: order to give you that easy practice on a daily 263 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 4: basis or frequent basis that makes behavior change much easier. 264 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 4: So I think the overall point is just it's not 265 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 4: going to happen naturally. You know, we're not designed to 266 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 4: to change our behavior naturally. But can it be done. Absolutely, 267 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 4: it can be. 268 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 3: You mentioned before, like their habits that were formed that 269 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 3: might not be serving us anymore. And I feel like 270 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 3: in our community something that we're all really good at. 271 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 3: We don't want to admit this though, but we're really 272 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 3: good at. It's kind of crucifying ourselves for the habits 273 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 3: that we have. We're like, oh, my gosh, I'm so silly, 274 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 3: or I'm so dumb, or I cannot believe I did this. 275 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: Oh it's the worst, and we bury our heads in 276 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: the sand. 277 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 3: And I say that in a way that isn't me 278 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 3: going this is what my community does, like I do 279 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 3: it too. I feel like it's innately human to always 280 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 3: crucify past us for decisions we made when we didn't 281 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 3: have the tools in resources available to us to make 282 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,479 Speaker 3: the decision that we would have today. But from your perspective, 283 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 3: like you're literally a doctor in this space. You are 284 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 3: one of the smartest women I have ever met. Talk 285 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 3: to me about how important it is to have a 286 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 3: level of self compassion for yourself and like, how do 287 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 3: we know when to be tough but also when to 288 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 3: be really cld to ourselves, because I think that we're 289 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 3: really bad at doing that sometimes, just as the human race, 290 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 3: like not even just as women or just as you know, 291 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 3: the shes on the money community. I feel like each 292 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 3: and every single person crucifies themselves for past mistakes. 293 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 4: Oh my god, we do, we do. I think it's 294 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 4: a very human thing to do to be tough in ourselves, 295 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 4: and especially it makes sense in light of what we're 296 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 4: talking about earlier, how we feel like we're responsible for 297 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 4: everything that's happened. You know, even if that's not true. 298 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 4: You know, we are not the architects of evolution and 299 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 4: how our brain was built, nor did we choose our 300 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 4: families of origin and our upbringings, and you know, our 301 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 4: education systems or the way the system is shaped, like 302 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 4: we're actually not responsible in that way, and yet we 303 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 4: have this notion that, Okay, you know, I feel like 304 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 4: I need to be tough on myself. I want to 305 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 4: get better at something, so I can't afford to be 306 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 4: self compassionate. If I'm nice to myself, then I'm being 307 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 4: self indulgent, I'm being lazy, you know. And we feel 308 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 4: like being tough on yourself, you know, that's what discipline's about. 309 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 4: You know, I need to be disciplined, I need to 310 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 4: be tough on myself. But actually it's another one of 311 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 4: these misunderstandings because we mistake discipline with self criticism. They 312 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 4: are actually not the same thing at all. All the 313 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 4: research on behavior change tells us that being self critical 314 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 4: actually is detrimental to improving. It does not help you 315 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 4: be disciplined and get better. The most helpful forms of 316 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 4: discipline actually involve kindness and self compassion and positive reinforcement. 317 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 4: So it's interesting because when it comes to money, you know, 318 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 4: we talked about it, how is taboo? It's misunderstood. We 319 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 4: feel responsible and there's all these kind of you know, 320 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 4: misconceptions about it, and we feel like it's our fault. 321 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 4: But it's actually really important to start with self compassion 322 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 4: and start with making emotionally safe space for yourself to 323 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 4: honestly acknowledge possible shortcomings, but without worrying too much about judgment. 324 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 4: Because that emotional safe space we give ourselves is what 325 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 4: starts the courage to make changes and one of the 326 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 4: key things for me to understand, you know, and I'm 327 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 4: very much with you, and I think this is not 328 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 4: just something that applies to women, though it's certainly been 329 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 4: well documented as something that applies to women, but also 330 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 4: to men too, which is like negative self talk, right, 331 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 4: It's just sort of runs in your brain and there's 332 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 4: all this negative self talk sometimes that you don't even 333 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 4: realize is there. But the specific language we use in 334 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 4: our self talk makes a huge difference. Right. If my 335 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 4: self talk when I'm stressed about money is oh, I'm 336 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 4: just so irresponsible, or like, oh god, I'm hopeless with money, 337 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 4: I'm such an idiot, you know that language that's a 338 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 4: focus on the self rather than a focus on behavior. 339 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 4: A focus on behavior is something really specific about a 340 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 4: specific behavior. It's like, you know, I bought around when 341 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 4: I didn't need to last night, I bought the suit 342 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 4: to feel more confident at work, but I'm not sure 343 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 4: it's helped me. I still feel funny at work. And 344 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 4: that's a focus on behavior. Right. We can have the 345 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 4: same action, right, which is like, oh, I overspent and 346 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 4: I'm feeling bad. But what's my self talk? Is it 347 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 4: focusing on myself in a negative way or is it 348 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 4: just focusing on the behavior? Because one focusing on behavior 349 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 4: is actually helpful for behavior change and makes sense for 350 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 4: you know, quote unquote discipline and being tough on yourself 351 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 4: in a positive way, versus the self talk that focused 352 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 4: on the self is not helpful for behavior change, and 353 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 4: it actually gets in the way of discipline and being 354 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 4: tough on self and improving. So self talk is super 355 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 4: important and self love and compassion is a starting point 356 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 4: for change. 357 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 3: It makes us so much sense because saying something like 358 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 3: oh my gosh, the worst, like that's not constructive. It 359 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 3: doesn't actually create this ability to you know, find a 360 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 3: different behavior. Right, you just got I'm the worst, full 361 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 3: stop end of story, Like what are you even talking about? 362 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 3: Whereas if you go this behavior is the worst, you go, 363 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 3: all right, well, what am I going to do about that? 364 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 3: And I feel like it's that next step and it 365 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 3: just makes sense, and so many of us are guilty 366 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 3: for it. And I was having this conversation the other 367 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 3: day Lily with a girlfriend and she's like, yeah, I know, 368 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 3: you keep telling me to do these things because obviously 369 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 3: I'm not just passionate about money on she's on the money. 370 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 3: I'm passionate when I'm drinking wine on a Saturday night 371 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 3: with my girlfriends. I'm like, oh my gosh, so this 372 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 3: hot tip. They're just like, Victoria. 373 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 1: Stop. 374 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 3: But I was recommending to a girlfriend who is really 375 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 3: harsh on herself the other day. I was like, why 376 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 3: don't you just journal it out? Like, why don't you 377 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,719 Speaker 3: write all of these things down, because once you've written 378 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 3: it down, it just kind of stares you in the 379 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 3: face and is a lot easier to combat. And she's like, oh, 380 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,239 Speaker 3: but Victoria, journaling is so lame, And I was like, 381 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 3: you need to move away from that, because as much 382 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 3: as I agree like journaling is not for everybody, it 383 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 3: can actually be a really constructive activity to go, you 384 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 3: know what, Pragmatically, I'm just going to write down all 385 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 3: these behaviors that I'm doing that I would like to 386 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 3: reframe or change, because then you can overlay what you've 387 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 3: been saying, Lily and go, well, is that actually about 388 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 3: the behavior or is that about me? Because if it's 389 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 3: about me, that's not helpful and we need to remove 390 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,199 Speaker 3: that from our language. And that's going to give you 391 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 3: the ability to just directly see whether your negative self 392 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,439 Speaker 3: talk is a really big part of your narrative or not, 393 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 3: because I think so many of us will go, oh, 394 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 3: I don't have negative self talk until you actually have 395 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 3: it staring at you on a piece of paper in 396 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 3: front of you. Sometimes you just don't even realize, and 397 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 3: it can be so detrimental. I promise the second you 398 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 3: realize that you are being negative towards yourself and can 399 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 3: reframe that or rephrase the way that you communicate with yourself, 400 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 3: you become such a happier human. And it makes me 401 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 3: so happy to know that I get to share you 402 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 3: and all of your hot tips with our community, like 403 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 3: it makes my soul so excited that these are the 404 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 3: conversations we're having. 405 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 4: Me too, Me too, And I just want to say 406 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 4: to everybody that it's not our fault and this stuff 407 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 4: doesn't come naturally. We don't just naturally, you know, know 408 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 4: what we're thinking. We don't naturally journal, we don't naturally 409 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 4: know our own psychology. It's not something we can expect 410 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 4: of ourselves. I guess it's not like another failing that 411 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 4: I haven't already done this, you know, self compassion is 412 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 4: realizing like, Okay, this is how our brains are built 413 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 4: and this is what's underlying our behavior. But you know, 414 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 4: what can we do about it? And can we seek 415 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 4: some active help? And you know that's why we've kind 416 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 4: of been doing the work that we've done and building 417 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 4: wiser today. But it's so important to start with not 418 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 4: expecting too much of yourself. 419 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: I could not agree more. 420 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 3: All right, we do have to go to a really 421 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 3: quick break, but on the other side of the break, 422 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 3: I'm going to be talking to Lily about how we 423 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 3: actually create meaningful change. So don't go anywhere, guys. All right, Lily, 424 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 3: we are back, and I am so excited. We are 425 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 3: talking about everything when it comes to decision making and 426 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 3: behavioral economics, and we're talking about psychology and savings, and 427 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 3: we're talking about whyser today and what you do with 428 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 3: your work every single day. I would argue that you're 429 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 3: justice equally passionate, if not more passionate than I am, 430 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 3: about financial literacy and creating meaningful change. And I guess 431 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 3: that's where I really want to kick the conversation off again. 432 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 3: And if anyone in our community is listening and really 433 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 3: resonating with the sense of I guess disconnect between actions 434 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 3: and intent. Can you give us some top tips on 435 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 3: what might get them to start creating meaningful change in 436 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 3: their lives. 437 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know you mentioned this gap between intention and action, 438 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 4: and first of all, everyone that has a human brain 439 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 4: has a gap between intention and action. So we've got 440 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 4: to normalize it. You know, it's not like the minute 441 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 4: we think we want to do something, we can just 442 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 4: do it. So we talked earlier about how it's not 443 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,479 Speaker 4: our fault that we have the habits and established our 444 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,959 Speaker 4: pathways that we do. We were not taught to manage 445 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 4: this school, not to mention the brain naturally evolved to 446 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 4: make habits hard to see, and you know, people tend 447 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 4: to see it as a personal failure that they can't 448 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 4: change on helpful habits or patterns of behavior, Like, Oh, 449 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 4: I tried before, but you know I didn't succeed, So 450 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 4: I didn't trust myself to do it in this area 451 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 4: or any other area of my life. And it's super 452 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 4: common for the brain to engage in black and white 453 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 4: thinking like oh, you know, I made a mistake or 454 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 4: I fell off the wagon, so I might as well 455 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 4: give up. But in reality, you know, if we want 456 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 4: to change anything in our lives, we can. But change 457 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 4: is not linear because you have to work with the 458 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 4: brain and understand how the brain changes. So, for example, 459 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 4: existing habits they serve a helpful function, and usually we 460 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 4: actually have to understand the deeper need that current habits 461 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 4: are fulfilling, like am I buying all these new clothes 462 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 4: or going to the bars a lot because it gives 463 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 4: me a sense of belonging or respect or is it comfort? 464 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 4: The deeper behind our habits will help us realize what 465 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 4: is it that we need to solve for, and now 466 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 4: we can start changing how we solve for those needs 467 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 4: with possibly healthier habits, but in a way that doesn't 468 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 4: ask too much of our brains. So it's helpful to 469 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 4: do a little bite sized bit of change at a time. 470 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 4: We all know that if we try to crash diet 471 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 4: or change all of our standing behavior, make big changes 472 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 4: really quickly. In two weeks, it won't work. We want 473 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 4: fast results, but that's not how the brand changes. 474 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:28,479 Speaker 1: It's crazy, isn't it. 475 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 3: We talk about this a lot in Sese on the Money, 476 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 3: and I think I've spoken about it on the podcast 477 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 3: before because I also am obsessed with psychology, Like it's 478 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 3: not an accident that I also studied it. But I 479 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 3: think the thing that we forget, and I think you 480 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 3: and I were talking about this literally more than a 481 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 3: year ago, people forget that as humans as much as 482 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 3: it's twenty twenty two and we have corporate jobs and like, 483 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 3: we literally can create the life we want to create innately, 484 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 3: we are individuals who have survival mode still turned on, 485 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 3: and survival mode really leans towards being comfortable because comfort 486 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 3: is equal to safety. And if comfort is equal to safety, 487 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 3: why would we move away from those habits where we 488 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 3: are so deeply connected to being able to be safe 489 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 3: and safe is literally all our body wants. 490 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: So it makes sense. 491 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 3: That's why change is so uncomfortable, because your body goes 492 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 3: through a level of trauma to change it because you're 493 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 3: literally like, oh my gosh, I'm not safe anymore, and 494 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 3: I'm actually a human that needs to be safe, like 495 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 3: go back to cave man area, like leave the cave 496 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 3: feel a little bit anxious, of course, because there are 497 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 3: risks out there, and I just think that we forget 498 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 3: that so deeply because we're so disconnected from that. And 499 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 3: that's why behavioral change is so hard to make, because 500 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 3: we're not meant to make changes if it keeps us alive, 501 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 3: right totally. 502 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 4: You know, our habits have evolved for a reason, but 503 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 4: that doesn't mean that those reasons continue to serve us. 504 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 4: So we can work on one habit at a time 505 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 4: if we want to change, rather than try to change 506 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 4: the whole constellation of all our money habits. We can 507 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 4: you know, practice small little changes that intentionally then results 508 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 4: in a dopamine hit and build a positive reinforcement loop 509 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 4: for your brain. And that's what wiser Today's about. And 510 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 4: it's really important to make nonlinear progress because it just 511 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 4: isn't like, oh, I'm going to get on this wagon 512 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 4: of change and then everything is just going to go easy. 513 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 4: Change that is effective and sustainable is not linear, So 514 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 4: it's totally okay to fall off the wagon and then 515 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 4: get back on when you're ready. That's actually a natural 516 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 4: part of how the brain wants to change, and so 517 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 4: you can retrain your brain and behavior over time. And 518 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 4: the key to that is you have to feel good 519 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 4: along the way. Right, A lot of people think, oh, 520 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 4: what about deprivation. Am I going to have to change 521 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 4: and give up what I really care about? Well, no, 522 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 4: that's not going to drive sustainable change. Behavior change succeeds 523 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 4: if you're feeling good along the way. If you let 524 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 4: go of the guilt, you normalize the gap between intention 525 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 4: and action, and you use science and get science based 526 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 4: guidance that helps you to start closing this gap between 527 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 4: intention and action, but in a much easier kind of small, 528 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 4: bite sized daily way. And I think learning over time 529 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 4: about psychology and you know, going back to your journaling example, 530 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 4: whatever method it is, discovering over time and having the 531 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 4: guidance to do that. What our thoughts are, just actually 532 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 4: see what they are. Realize what thoughts are running around 533 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 4: in our heads that might be leading to inaction or 534 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 4: actions that are not aligned with what we really want. 535 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 4: You know. Maybe it's a lack of self efficacy, like 536 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 4: our lack of a belief and our own ability to 537 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 4: achieve our goals or change, you know, or it's underlying 538 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 4: beliefs and attitudes about the behavior we're trying to change. 539 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 4: Like sometimes we say, for example, oh, we want to 540 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 4: save more money, right, But if we dig into it, 541 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,479 Speaker 4: how we truly are thinking about saving money, it might 542 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 4: be associated with feelings of deprivation, like I don't want 543 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 4: to be deprived. 544 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 3: No one wants to be deprived. One out of ten 545 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 3: cannot recommend exactly. 546 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 4: But if I'm saying that, right, if I'm saying that 547 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 4: to myself, that saving is deprivation, that's the immediate thought 548 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 4: that comes up, Then you know what's that about? And 549 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 4: is that the helpful thought? And we might have a 550 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 4: story likewise that says, Okay, it's probably not that big 551 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 4: of a deal if we don't have an emergency fund, 552 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 4: like maybe it's something to do when you're older. You know, 553 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 4: whatever that story is, those underlying beliefs and attitudes, it's 554 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 4: really beneath a surface and it's hard to see, but 555 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 4: it might be what's really driving our behavior. So I 556 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 4: think there's a lot of reasons why there's a very 557 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 4: normal gap between intention and action. It's very normal. We 558 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 4: all have it. We shouldn't blame ourselves for it, but 559 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 4: we can do something about it. 560 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 3: So talk to me a little bit about why financial 561 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 3: health specifically is so important. 562 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: I mean you touched on it before. 563 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 3: We were talking about I guess behavioral based guidance, and 564 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 3: we're talking about, you know, the science behind it is 565 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 3: I guess money. 566 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,239 Speaker 1: The answer? Is more money the answer? Or is it 567 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: something else? 568 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 4: Like? 569 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 3: What is driving that? Why should financial health be made 570 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 3: a priority? 571 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 4: Oh? Such a good question, you know, I feel like 572 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 4: it's so misunderstood. Financial health is important because money is 573 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 4: just a resource like health, energy, and time. It's a 574 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 4: resource we have to earn and conserve and use, and 575 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 4: how well we deal with this resource just has a 576 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 4: huge impact in our lives. Right, we can't escape it. 577 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 4: It has a huge impact on our well being, in 578 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 4: our sense of self because more money is not the answer, 579 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 4: because money itself is not the answer. Because even people 580 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 4: who are rich still have to deal with this, right, 581 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 4: they still have to deal with the problem of how 582 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 4: to use and manage this resource. The issues don't go away. 583 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 4: Financial health just is something that is a part of 584 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 4: health and life. And we see that in wealthy, dysfunctional families. 585 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 4: We see it in lottery winners. You know, it's well 586 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 4: established research that shows that a lot of lottery winners 587 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 4: do not become happier after they win the lottery, And 588 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 4: even the research shows that we don't become happier at 589 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 4: a population level above a certain threshold of income, which 590 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 4: isn't even that high. 591 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 3: It's really not And I think it's so surprising as well, 592 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 3: because in Australia nowadays, and don't quote me on these statistics, 593 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 3: you're the one coming to the table today with stats, 594 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 3: but the average Australian income is now setting it around 595 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 3: eighty to eighty two ish thousand dollars, and that actually 596 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 3: is the amount of money where happiness doesn't start increasing 597 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 3: anymore after you reach that. So it's literally you earn 598 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 3: the average amount and you aren't going to get happier 599 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 3: the more you earn. It blows my mind, and I 600 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 3: think that that has something to do with going back 601 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 3: to our conversation about safety and security, because that's the 602 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 3: amount of money that puts food on your table and 603 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 3: makes sure all of your bills are come it and 604 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 3: you're not deprived in any way. So anything above and 605 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 3: beyond that is great, it's special, but it's not going 606 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 3: to contribute to your underlying happiness. 607 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: And I think that so many of us have been. 608 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 3: Tricked, especially in such a commercial world now that more 609 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 3: money is going to equal more happiness because obviously bags 610 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 3: and shoes and all of these other things that are 611 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 3: material somehow impact our mental health and they really don't. 612 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 4: Ah, so true, so true. You know, we talked about 613 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 4: how looking rich is an implicit norm, like it's better 614 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 4: if you look rich, but that's not true from a 615 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 4: real happiness level, right, research shows not true. 616 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: No, that's not sexy. 617 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 3: We've talked about this before, and it's just like this 618 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 3: idea of seeing somebody wearing all the expensive clothes and 619 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 3: wearing all the expensive jewelry. 620 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: It baffles me. 621 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 3: Right that I saw this on social media the other 622 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 3: day and I kind of had a little laugh to myself. 623 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 3: Somebody posted that they've got a new car, so like 624 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 3: they'd posted this picture of their brand new car and 625 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 3: it had this big red bow on it, and I 626 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 3: was like, Wow, we're celebrating getting into debt because there's 627 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 3: absolutely no way that that car was not financed from 628 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 3: that individual. I just knew it. And we're celebrating taking 629 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 3: on finance. But nobody ever posts when they make their 630 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 3: first investment or they are taking that next step, or 631 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 3: they're making additional superranuation contributions because that's not seen as sexy. 632 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 3: But we're literally celebrating somebody going into debt, like everyone's commenting, 633 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 3: oh my god, congrats, well done, girlfriend, You've done so well, 634 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 3: Like wow, this is amazing, and I'm like, wait, what, 635 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 3: Like we're celebrating that, but no one's going to jump 636 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 3: up and down about the wealth creation side of things 637 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 3: that is actually going to create not only financial security, 638 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 3: but mental health. 639 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: Like every other. 640 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 3: Kind of security that exists is going to stem from 641 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 3: some level of financial stability. And it blew my mind 642 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 3: and it reminds me of that idea that fake rich 643 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 3: now real poor later, which we say a lot on 644 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 3: the podcast. 645 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: But wealth is kind of secret. 646 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 3: Rich is shiny and visible and it is not actually wealth. 647 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: Wealth is private. Wealth is secret. 648 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 3: Wealth is quiet, and I think that there's something really 649 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 3: sexy about it. 650 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, Spending is visible, but saving is invisible exactly. 651 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 3: Like if you're spending and you're thinking that these material 652 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 3: items are what brings value, like, it just is so 653 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 3: backwards to me. 654 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 1: It is so backwards, it really is. 655 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 4: But you know, I think financial health because money is 656 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 4: so misunderstood because we're looking at all the wrong things 657 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 4: and we don't understand that financial health is actually about 658 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,919 Speaker 4: our psychology and our personal values and healthy habits in psychology, 659 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 4: it's so integral to our lives. But it's like the 660 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 4: entire financial industry isn't designing for that yet, right. I'd 661 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 4: love to see the whole industry pivot and take it seriously, 662 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,280 Speaker 4: why don't we design products and services actually help people 663 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 4: with financial health rather than go down a path of thinking, oh, 664 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 4: you know, money is just about dollars and cents, and 665 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 4: we're going to put all this innovation effort into an 666 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 4: extra percent on a financial product or digitize some process 667 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 4: so you can buy a financial product. 668 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 3: Faster, because that's not where the money is. Lily, you 669 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 3: and I both know that, and I mean, you're so 670 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 3: wildly passionate about it. You've been working on Weiser today 671 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 3: literally for years. But I guess you and I both 672 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 3: know that as much as you're wildly passionate about this, 673 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 3: and this is going to have, honestly such a big 674 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 3: change not only to our community but Australia wide. But 675 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 3: in not doing it because it's driving profit like it 676 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 3: is definitely hopefully going to be profitable, because it's like 677 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 3: a business at the end of the day, and the 678 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 3: more profitable a business is, the more impact it can have. However, 679 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 3: like I think that you guys have a very different 680 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 3: view of what success means, and your idea of success 681 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 3: from my perspective, has never been about the dollars on 682 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 3: your balance sheet, and something I super respect about you guys, 683 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 3: because it's just every other financial institution is about that 684 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,359 Speaker 3: extra percent, do you know what I mean? 685 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 4: I do, But I think that that's just because people 686 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 4: think that, you know, the current financial products are the 687 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 4: ones that make money, whereas I think that people care 688 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 4: about financial health. We care about money in the context 689 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 4: of our real lives, and if we're able to come 690 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 4: up with the actually genuinely helpful products and services that 691 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 4: that will be sustainable because people will want it. So 692 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 4: I guess I feel like it's a win win. But 693 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 4: I think it's our job to lift the money taboo 694 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 4: and to move financial health into the light because it 695 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 4: is important for everybody. There shouldn't be shame around it, 696 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 4: and we can use technology and science and everything that 697 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,800 Speaker 4: we are starting to learn about the brain and proven 698 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 4: interventions around behavior change to really build completely different things. 699 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 4: I can imagine a really different future for money. How 700 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 4: we talk about in our culture, the products and services 701 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 4: that we have on offer. I think today's just you know, 702 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,400 Speaker 4: we're just getting started on that. And think about how 703 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 4: much the conversation around mental health has moved into the 704 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 4: light since COVID. You know, things can change quickly, and 705 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 4: I think we can start lifting the money taboo. And 706 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,760 Speaker 4: that's why this community is so important and the work 707 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 4: that you do has such an impact on people's lives. 708 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I honestly could not agree more Lily, and honestly, 709 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 3: unfortunately that is all we have time for today. But 710 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,399 Speaker 3: before we go, I want to know our community has 711 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 3: arguably fallen in love with you after having this conversation, 712 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 3: because I know I'm obsessed with you. Where can we 713 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,280 Speaker 3: go to learn more about you and more about Wiser today. 714 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 4: You can go on the Wiser website. You can also 715 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 4: find me on LinkedIn, and of course I'm part of 716 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 4: the She's on the Money community on face buck love 717 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 4: it so much. Gives me inspiration every week. 718 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 1: You actually are, which is my favorite. I adore it. 719 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 3: The Lily is definitely part of the community, but hit 720 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 3: her up if you want to have a chat on 721 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 3: LinkedIn or she writes heaps of articles and is always 722 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 3: contributing on the Wiser website. 723 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: You can search her up. 724 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 3: You can search Wiser Today up and check it all 725 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 3: out because honestly, their work is incredible and I adore you. 726 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 3: Thank you for joining us today, Lily, it has as 727 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 3: always been such a pleasure. 728 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 4: Like WHI thank you so much, love this community, love 729 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 4: your work more power. 730 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,759 Speaker 3: You are so kind and guys, we would love it 731 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 3: if you joined our Facebook group, where our community shares 732 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 3: money tips and tricks every single day, free of judgment. 733 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 3: Search She's on the Money on Facebook and join us. 734 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,879 Speaker 3: If Facebook's not your thing, you can find us on Instagram. 735 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 3: She's on the Money. Aus did By shared on She's 736 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 3: on the Money is general in nature and does not. 737 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: Consider your individual circumstances. 738 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 3: She's on the Money exists purely for educational purposes and 739 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 3: should not be relied upon to make an investment or 740 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 3: financial decision. 741 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,799 Speaker 1: If you do choose to buy a financial product. 742 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 3: Read the PDS TMD and obtain appropriate financial. 743 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 1: Advice tailored towards your needs. 744 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,800 Speaker 3: Victoria Divine and She's on the Money are authorized Representatives 745 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 3: of Money Sherpa pty Ltd ABN three two one six 746 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 3: four nine two seven seven zero eight AFSL four five 747 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 3: one two eight nine