1 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: Today's episode is another my favorite tip episode where I 2 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: go back to interviews from the past and I dig 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: out the thing that was my favorite tip, like the 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: thing that I got out of the interview that really 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: impacted or resonated with me. Today's extract is from my 6 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: chat with Darren Murph, which was one of my favorite 7 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: interviews of twenty twenty. So if you haven't come across Darren, 8 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: Darren is Gitlab's head of Remote and that is really 9 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: his title, And if you have never heard of GitLab, 10 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: it's the world's largest all remote company, with over thirteen 11 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: hundred team members in over sixty seven countries with no 12 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: company owned offices. Darren has spent his career leading remote 13 00:00:55,120 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: teams and chatting remote transformations, and also authored gitlabs Remote Playbook. 14 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: Darren also holds a Guinness World Record as the planet's 15 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: most prolific professional blogger, having published ten million words My Goodness, 16 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,839 Speaker 1: And in this extract of my chat with Darren, we 17 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: talk about his four step process for making virtual meetings 18 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,199 Speaker 1: dramatically more effective, given that pretty much all the meetings 19 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: that he's a part of are virtual. So let's head 20 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: on over to Darren. Now, you mentioned the idea of 21 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: synchronous versus asynchronous communication. And I know you've spoken about 22 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: what companies that truly want to do remote work well 23 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: need to do is replace the default of synchronous communication. 24 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: Can you explain what you mean by that, like how 25 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: companies do default to synchronous communication and what are the 26 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: steps that a company needs to take to not do 27 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: that because it's so well entranced into most company cultures. 28 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, to better understand this, you really have to go 29 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: all the way back to grade school if you think 30 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 2: about it. Early on. In our classical education, children are 31 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: contained within four walls in a roof. We are conditioned 32 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 2: from birth to operate in a synchronous manner in what 33 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 2: is essentially an office for children. We are taught no 34 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 2: other way, and so it's quite unusual to move projects 35 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 2: forward or to build relationships when you aren't in the 36 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 2: same place at the same time. You may hear things like, oh, 37 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 2: but I prefer synchronicity. I prefer to be together, And 38 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 2: most of that is because people don't have a solid 39 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 2: baseline of how this could work well in any other fashion. 40 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 2: So synchronicity is the default for a lot of people. 41 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 2: They feel like reaching out and having conversations with people 42 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: or tapping someone on the shoulder. It feels very productive. 43 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 2: It makes you feel like you're contributing meaningfully to the organization. 44 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 2: But in truth, these types of meetings and ad hoc 45 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 2: interruptions are massively disruptive to the bottom line. They're massively 46 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 2: disruptive to people's mental health. It's very difficult to get 47 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: into a state of flow and make meaningful progress on 48 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 2: any line of work if you're continuously being interrupted. There 49 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 2: is a reason that Google is a machine and not 50 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 2: a person, because if someone just essentially taps you as 51 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 2: Google all day, you're going to get tired of answering 52 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 2: those queries at some point. So it's a fundamentally more 53 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 2: inclusive way to communicate your knowledge and to scale your 54 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 2: knowledge by writing it down once so that it can 55 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: be interpreted and used a limitless amount of times. But 56 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: it takes a culture that is understanding of that. And indeed, 57 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 2: if you look at the get lab onboarding process, we 58 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: lay out guides that explain exactly how to adopt a 59 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: self service mentality. We even have a handbook guide on 60 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: how to use the handbook. We have another guide on 61 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 2: how to search the Handbook. We are very prescriptive and 62 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 2: articulate about the information infrastructure that we have set up. 63 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 2: We essentially see the handbook as yet another product or tool. 64 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: And so if you were coming into any company, you 65 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 2: would expect an onboarding to get used to a key 66 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: tool to do work, and we see the handbook as 67 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 2: a key tool to do work. 68 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 1: That's really cool. I want to talk a little bit 69 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: more about meetings, and obviously at git lab you default 70 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: to documentation instead of meetings, which I think is such 71 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: a key like such a key point for listeners who 72 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: are thinking how do we truly go remote to really 73 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: think about because we are so conditioned to defaulting to meetings, 74 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: it's the easiest thing to do. And I want to 75 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: know when you do have meetings at get lab, what 76 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 1: are the different rules that you have in place, Because 77 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: I know there are some rules and guidelines for having 78 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: meetings at get lab. I imagine that it is quite a 79 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: significant thing if you're in to a meeting it get lab, 80 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: given it's not the default. Is that fair to say? 81 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 2: It is fair to say, and there is some context 82 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 2: you need to understand here. It is easier for us 83 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 2: to get away with this at get lab because people 84 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,679 Speaker 2: self select into get lab. You opt into get lab 85 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 2: even in the interview process. You know what you're getting into. 86 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 2: Everyone can read our handbook before they even apply here, 87 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 2: and so people come here because they want to work 88 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 2: this way. It is their default. And so we have 89 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 2: a like minded group of people that want to have 90 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 2: a bias towards a synchronous. In fact, bias towards a 91 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: synchronous is one of the sub values of our diversity, 92 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: inclusion and belonging value because it allows for a more 93 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 2: inclusive course of voices to contribute to a project. So 94 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 2: there's a five step process that, of course we have 95 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 2: documented on questioning every meeting. The first is what is 96 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 2: the outcome I am trying to achieve that has led 97 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 2: me to a desire to schedule a meeting. You need 98 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 2: to write that down and articulate that. Number two is 99 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 2: can the desired outcome be broken down and the smaller tasks? 100 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 2: If you can break things down to more incremental pieces, 101 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 2: it's more likely that you can accomplish each individual element 102 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 2: of that through an asynchronous means. Number three is can 103 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 2: the desired outcome be achieved or work towards by dogfooding 104 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 2: and using a get lab issue or merge request. Now, 105 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 2: this is where it's important for me to point out 106 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 2: that all of get lab uses get lab the product 107 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 2: to collaborate. It is the heartbeat of our asynchronous workflow. 108 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 2: So if you don't have a tool like this, you 109 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 2: will need one. It is extremely hard to lean fully 110 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 2: into a synchronous using a hodgepodge of phone calls, carrier pigeons, 111 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 2: and email. You're going to need a tool at the 112 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 2: heart of it. The fourth one is am I trying 113 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 2: to gather consensus. If you are consensus gathering can be 114 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: done asynchronously. Anyone can open up a get lab issue 115 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 2: or a mural board or a Figma board and gather 116 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 2: input and consensus, and then you can save the meeting 117 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 2: until the decision making needs to curve. And even that 118 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 2: decision making, which is step five, we ask people to 119 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 2: consider can the decision be made asynchronous LEA And if 120 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: it cannot, then we default to a synchronous meeting, but 121 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 2: we will reserve that for the very end. And then 122 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 2: if we have to have a meeting, we make it 123 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: quite difficult for this to happen. Every meeting has to 124 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: have an agenda attached to the calendar invite, so that 125 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 2: temporal documentation takes place live during the meeting, and then 126 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 2: the meeting organizer is responsible for transcribing and contextualizing any 127 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: takeaways from that meeting into the get lab handbook so 128 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 2: that the most amount of people can benefit from the 129 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 2: knowledge that was gained in that meeting. It takes a 130 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 2: cultural mindset company wide for this to actually work and 131 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: be meaningful, but our people fundamentally believe that synchronous time 132 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 2: is very precious and we would rather reserve that for 133 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 2: informal communication, for coffee chats, for team wide triviasians and 134 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 2: scavenger hunts, things that help us build bonds as a team, 135 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 2: then just another work meeting. Now, of course we still 136 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 2: have work meetings, but if we're rigorous enough to cut 137 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 2: our meetings down by even fifty percent, most people listening 138 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 2: to this would think, Wow, if I could have fifty 139 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 2: percent fewer meetings, I think my zoom fatigue would go away. 140 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: So we're not trying to eliminate meetings. We're just trying 141 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 2: to have a thorough process so that you question it, 142 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 2: because if you're going to have to write down the 143 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 2: takeaway anyway, we would love for you to start by 144 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 2: writing it down instead of doing double work with a 145 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 2: meeting first and then writing it down. 146 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: That is it for today's show. If you want to 147 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: listen to the full episode, I link to that in 148 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: the show notes, so you might want to check that out. 149 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: And if you are enjoying how I work, I would 150 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: be so deeply grateful if you just take five seconds 151 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 1: out of your date to leave a review in Apple Podcasts. 152 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: It might be a star rating or a few words, 153 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: and by doing so, it helps other people find the 154 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: show and it also brings a huge smile to my face. 155 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: So thank you to the hundreds of people that have 156 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: left reviews. It is so deeply appreciated. So that is 157 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: it for today's show and I will see you next time.