1
00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,519
Speaker 1: It's the happy family's podcast.

2
00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:10,320
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

3
00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:11,320
Speaker 2: wants answers.

4
00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,560
Speaker 1: Now. I kind of want to start this podcast by saying,

5
00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:20,599
Speaker 1: I love Monday's, but today's pod is really mishappy families

6
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:22,799
Speaker 1: having a rant, and I'm not sure how anyone's going

7
00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,000
Speaker 1: to feel about Monday once they listened to this conversation. Kylie,

8
00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,120
Speaker 1: you went to a meeting last week that has got

9
00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:30,880
Speaker 1: stuck in your cra What is a craw Do you

10
00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:31,440
Speaker 1: know what a crawd?

11
00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:33,200
Speaker 2: You don't know what a craw is? Used that word

12
00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:33,680
Speaker 2: all the time?

13
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:35,120
Speaker 1: Stuck in your crawl? Got your goat?

14
00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:36,160
Speaker 2: Got my goat?

15
00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell us about the meeting and why you're so

16
00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:39,640
Speaker 1: wound up.

17
00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,159
Speaker 2: This is not my first rodeo when it comes to

18
00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,599
Speaker 2: Year twelve preparations. I almost didn't go, but I decided

19
00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,080
Speaker 2: that to be fair, to be.

20
00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,440
Speaker 1: Supportive to our daughter, who is convincing you twelve even.

21
00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,080
Speaker 2: Though I've gone through it three times previous, she hasn't.

22
00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,680
Speaker 2: So we went along and attended a meeting that I

23
00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:00,800
Speaker 2: I hadn't have gone to.

24
00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,320
Speaker 1: Note I didn't go. I said, I'll look after Emily.

25
00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:07,160
Speaker 1: I'll stay home with the younger children who need supervision.

26
00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:08,640
Speaker 1: You can go to the school, you can go to

27
00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:09,000
Speaker 1: the meeting.

28
00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:09,720
Speaker 2: You're so kind.

29
00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,680
Speaker 1: I do my best. So what happened? Walk us through

30
00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:18,240
Speaker 1: the challenge? The I mean, you've come out I want

31
00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,959
Speaker 1: to use the word gruntled. No one's ever gruntled, have you?

32
00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,120
Speaker 1: We're only ever discgruntled, and you come out disgruntled.

33
00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,560
Speaker 2: It's hard to know if this particular meeting was more

34
00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,160
Speaker 2: pressure filled than previous ones, or whether or not me

35
00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,399
Speaker 2: seeing it through my particularly anxious year eleven daughters' eyes

36
00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:41,240
Speaker 2: impacted the way I received the information given. But what

37
00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:46,039
Speaker 2: I find, generally speaking in my four experiences is this

38
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,640
Speaker 2: is an opportunity for teachers to kind of put the

39
00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:53,040
Speaker 2: fear of God in these kids as they prepare for

40
00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:57,280
Speaker 2: their final year of school. The idea that they have

41
00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:02,680
Speaker 2: to work their bums off to the exclusion of everything else.

42
00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,240
Speaker 2: It's probably one of the most damaging messages I could

43
00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:08,040
Speaker 2: give my child.

44
00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,760
Speaker 1: So let's get something concrete around this. What precisely did

45
00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:13,600
Speaker 1: you hear that was so challenging?

46
00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,880
Speaker 2: Fifty thousand students will be dumped into the economy by

47
00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:23,080
Speaker 2: the end of twenty twenty.

48
00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,240
Speaker 1: Five, right, so at the end of next year, when

49
00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,320
Speaker 1: our daughter is supposed to graduate from school, there'll be

50
00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,359
Speaker 1: fifty thousand kids that will leave school. Let me just

51
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,480
Speaker 1: pick up on that fifty thousand things before you go on.

52
00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:33,840
Speaker 1: This happens every year.

53
00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:34,600
Speaker 2: It does.

54
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:39,680
Speaker 1: Every state will release no tens of thousands. I guess

55
00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,679
Speaker 1: New South Wales would be the highest state, and I

56
00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,079
Speaker 1: know they've got about eighty year twelve school leavers each year.

57
00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,480
Speaker 1: So that happens every year, and the economy manages every year.

58
00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,240
Speaker 1: We seem to be able to create more jobs. We've

59
00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,680
Speaker 1: seemed to not really have any employment problems in this country,

60
00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,400
Speaker 1: so I'm not convinced that that's a massive issue, but

61
00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,600
Speaker 1: it certainly sounds stark and scary, doesn't.

62
00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,400
Speaker 2: It one hundred percent? If I'm a year eleven student

63
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,400
Speaker 2: and I hear a message like that, and I'm being

64
00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,280
Speaker 2: told that I have to put my very best foot

65
00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:13,919
Speaker 2: forward because there's going to be fifty thousand people that

66
00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,560
Speaker 2: are going to be buying for positions in my community.

67
00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,240
Speaker 1: So it's ultimately a scarcity mentality that says if you

68
00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:23,360
Speaker 1: don't work, you'll miss out.

69
00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:24,560
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.

70
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,040
Speaker 1: The problem with this as well is that not every

71
00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:28,760
Speaker 1: student is going to go out and do the same thing.

72
00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,720
Speaker 1: It's not fifty thousand people competing for one university slot

73
00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:34,000
Speaker 1: or one but a year.

74
00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,440
Speaker 2: As a year eleven student. Do you not think that

75
00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,440
Speaker 2: that's kind of what I'm hearing. I'm actually competing for

76
00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,240
Speaker 2: whatever it is that I want to do with fifty

77
00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:43,120
Speaker 2: thousand other people.

78
00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,240
Speaker 1: I just don't feel like society works like that. But

79
00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,680
Speaker 1: clearly your experience the other night was let's be clear

80
00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,040
Speaker 1: as well, this is not about beating up on teachers

81
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,040
Speaker 1: and education staff. I often speak about the things that

82
00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,720
Speaker 1: we're talking about now in schools, and I have principles

83
00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,680
Speaker 1: and well being leaders come up and almost hug me

84
00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:02,280
Speaker 1: and say, I'm so glad you said what you said

85
00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,200
Speaker 1: because there's just too much pressure. But in our daughter's

86
00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:09,720
Speaker 1: case this year twelve preparation night, it sounds like there

87
00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,000
Speaker 1: was some pressure. What else was said?

88
00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,240
Speaker 2: I think a couple of things that really stood out

89
00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,719
Speaker 2: to me was there seemed to be a push for

90
00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:25,520
Speaker 2: a highly structured, highly study focused lifestyle in year twelve,

91
00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:30,359
Speaker 2: at the exclusion of a social life, spending time with

92
00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,719
Speaker 2: our families, and even getting rid of part time jobs.

93
00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,320
Speaker 2: All of those things, or any one of those things

94
00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:42,920
Speaker 2: could be a positive in removing from the big picture

95
00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,640
Speaker 2: of your child's life. Depending on your family circumstances and

96
00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,360
Speaker 2: your child's circumstances, how do they cope with stress? Do

97
00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,560
Speaker 2: they actually need time outside of things? But to kind

98
00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,680
Speaker 2: of put it in again in that context, with the

99
00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,200
Speaker 2: idea that your social life will be waiting for you

100
00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,840
Speaker 2: at the other end, and that now is the time

101
00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:07,400
Speaker 2: to basically work your bum off and focus on what matters.

102
00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,360
Speaker 1: Most, which is getting a high ATA.

103
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,680
Speaker 2: I feel like it's a really damaging message if I

104
00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,680
Speaker 2: just kind of literally just do some crude mass here

105
00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:21,320
Speaker 2: and put into a daily timetable what an average year

106
00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,800
Speaker 2: twelve students timetable would look like. Based on the recommendation

107
00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,560
Speaker 2: of last week's meeting. We've got one to two hours

108
00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,160
Speaker 2: of commute a day, whether you're catching a bus, you're

109
00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:35,080
Speaker 2: doing the daily commute in a car dealing with traffic.

110
00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,760
Speaker 2: One to two hours I think is a fair average

111
00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,280
Speaker 2: of what most people would be dealing with. You've got

112
00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,920
Speaker 2: seven hours at school. On top of that, they're now

113
00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,520
Speaker 2: saying that they want a minimum a minimum of three

114
00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,800
Speaker 2: hours study. So for a kid again who has high

115
00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,880
Speaker 2: hopes of achieving, well, they're not listening to the minimum. Right,

116
00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:54,440
Speaker 2: they don't want to do the minimum, They're going to

117
00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,880
Speaker 2: do as much as they can. And then you have dinner,

118
00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,880
Speaker 2: hopefully in their somewhere, and some meals. So all up,

119
00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:08,720
Speaker 2: I've got twelve hours of absolutely structured time outside of

120
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,400
Speaker 2: any other things that they're going to do. How is

121
00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:17,640
Speaker 2: that helpful, beneficial or allowing our kids to live some

122
00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:19,240
Speaker 2: kind of meaningful life.

123
00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,440
Speaker 1: Probably one of the central things that I'm picking up

124
00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,800
Speaker 1: on here is that we've got a really heavy focus

125
00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,520
Speaker 1: on this atar thing right, and the pressure is if

126
00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,000
Speaker 1: you don't get this right, it's going to be to

127
00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:31,880
Speaker 1: your detriment.

128
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,680
Speaker 2: Well, that even came up the acknowledgment that once upon

129
00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,160
Speaker 2: a time a university degree was.

130
00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:38,640
Speaker 1: Free, free, free.

131
00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,839
Speaker 2: Absolutely free. We've gone from having a free education to

132
00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:44,839
Speaker 2: having fee helped education.

133
00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean our education in Austraia is still reasonably

134
00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,640
Speaker 1: cheap compared to many countries, obviously, especially the US, but yeah,

135
00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:52,840
Speaker 1: I mean it adds up.

136
00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,680
Speaker 2: And so the concept was brought up that if they

137
00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,520
Speaker 2: didn't get things right, it was going to cost them

138
00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,400
Speaker 2: more in the long run. If they, you know, for instance,

139
00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,280
Speaker 2: and roll in a course and decide halfway through the

140
00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:05,200
Speaker 2: year or even at the end of the year. This

141
00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,479
Speaker 2: isn't really what I want to do. They're going to

142
00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:12,160
Speaker 2: accrue more costs as a result of the changes that

143
00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:13,040
Speaker 2: they make about that.

144
00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,920
Speaker 1: Sort of stuff. But realistically, you put on the fee

145
00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,480
Speaker 1: help thing once you've got your hex debt. I mean,

146
00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:20,240
Speaker 1: we still call it a hex's debt or your help

147
00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,680
Speaker 1: debt or whatever it is. It's indexed to inflation.

148
00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,400
Speaker 2: But it's not like America where I have to pay

149
00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:25,600
Speaker 2: for it.

150
00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,440
Speaker 1: I have to pay it off in front, and you

151
00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,320
Speaker 1: don't have to pay for it as well until you're

152
00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,360
Speaker 1: earning a certain amount, and then it just gets deducted

153
00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,160
Speaker 1: over the years. It's a thing, it's definitely a thing.

154
00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,480
Speaker 1: I don't want to discount the debt, but it's not

155
00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,000
Speaker 1: that big of a debt. And if you die, it

156
00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,960
Speaker 1: gets wiped. It's not like somebody else has to pay

157
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,840
Speaker 1: the debt for you. It's a pretty easy to manage

158
00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:45,520
Speaker 1: kind of debt.

159
00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,120
Speaker 2: So I guess the big bee in my bonnet, Yeah.

160
00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:49,600
Speaker 1: And then it sounds like you've got one.

161
00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,080
Speaker 2: The big bee in my bonnet is with the literal

162
00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,400
Speaker 2: pandemic that we're experiencing. I'm going to say across the

163
00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,880
Speaker 2: world with mental illness. If you look at my twelve

164
00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,040
Speaker 2: hours a day, I'm stuck in a classroom, I'm stuck

165
00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,480
Speaker 2: at my desk, and I'm commuting. There's no joy factor

166
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,800
Speaker 2: in my day at all, let alone any time for

167
00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:17,760
Speaker 2: mindfulness or really connecting with people that matter in my life.

168
00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,520
Speaker 2: There's not even a place for recreation because if I

169
00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,760
Speaker 2: look at this from eight to nine, literally every day,

170
00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:32,800
Speaker 2: I'm instructured classes, I'm instructured study, I'm instructured commute like

171
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:34,880
Speaker 2: there is just there's no rigal room.

172
00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,280
Speaker 1: My sense is that your central concern is actually unspoken,

173
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:40,920
Speaker 1: and that is that we've got a daughter who responds

174
00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,440
Speaker 1: really poorly to pressure. She struggles with some anxiety sometimes,

175
00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:46,640
Speaker 1: and that she came home and couldn't get to sleep

176
00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,920
Speaker 1: until one thirty because she was so stressed about the

177
00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,959
Speaker 1: rest of her life. If she doesn't do well over

178
00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:51,720
Speaker 1: the next twelve.

179
00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:55,240
Speaker 2: Months, that is a huge part of this. But she's

180
00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,680
Speaker 2: not the only one that heard that message. She's not

181
00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,240
Speaker 2: the only one who's going to be dealing with this.

182
00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:02,560
Speaker 2: And as I sat there and I listened, I knew

183
00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,320
Speaker 2: exactly what I was going to have to come home

184
00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:05,560
Speaker 2: to and what I'm going to have to deal with

185
00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,120
Speaker 2: now for the next twelve months as she wrestles with

186
00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,960
Speaker 2: trying to find the balance so that she can live

187
00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,280
Speaker 2: a fulfilling purpose for wife.

188
00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:25,520
Speaker 1: I have some thoughts. Would you like to hear them? Sure,

189
00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:31,360
Speaker 1: let's go. First off, important to recognize that there's going

190
00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,160
Speaker 1: to be a whole lot of parents who go home

191
00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:35,520
Speaker 1: with their kids. The kids are going to shrug their

192
00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,440
Speaker 1: shoulder and say, yeah, whatever. There'll be a dismissive tone

193
00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,360
Speaker 1: in a portion of the audience. Another portion of the

194
00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,080
Speaker 1: audience will go home and say, oh my goodness, it's

195
00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,040
Speaker 1: on what do we need to do? And they're going

196
00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,400
Speaker 1: to carry that really, really heavily with them.

197
00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 2: If that was me in year eleven and I was

198
00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,720
Speaker 2: told that there were fifty thousand people lying for positions

199
00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,960
Speaker 2: at the end of year time, well, you've just lost me.

200
00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,600
Speaker 2: I'm done, Like, there's not even a point in me trying,

201
00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,880
Speaker 2: because how can one person compete against fifty thousand.

202
00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,480
Speaker 1: As a parent, I'm having a conversation that goes like this,

203
00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:13,599
Speaker 1: what are you going to do with the rest of

204
00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,520
Speaker 1: your life? Because you don't have to go to university.

205
00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,480
Speaker 1: This is very much an atar directed university focused conversation.

206
00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:22,679
Speaker 1: We know that there are kids who go into apprenticeships

207
00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:24,520
Speaker 1: or trainees ships. We know that some of them will

208
00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:26,240
Speaker 1: take a gap year, we know that some are going

209
00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:27,920
Speaker 1: to go and join the military.

210
00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,760
Speaker 2: Or that's not the conversation, volunteer sir No, and that

211
00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,920
Speaker 2: that's not the conversation. The conversation is so much that

212
00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:36,960
Speaker 2: there is one pathway. In spite of the fact that

213
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:42,640
Speaker 2: we mentioned that there's multiple pathways, there is one right pathway.

214
00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:43,560
Speaker 2: That's what it feels like.

215
00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,880
Speaker 1: And this is the education industrial complex. That it's very worst. Okay,

216
00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:48,960
Speaker 1: it says that education is modeled. I think there's only

217
00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:50,480
Speaker 1: one way to success in life, and that way to

218
00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,920
Speaker 1: success is that you have to have academic credentials. You've

219
00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,160
Speaker 1: got to get a high a target into a challenging

220
00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,800
Speaker 1: and competitive university course. Dog Eat Dog World be better

221
00:10:57,840 --> 00:10:58,680
Speaker 1: than everybody else.

222
00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,240
Speaker 2: Well, don't even get me started about Dog Eat Dog World.

223
00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,000
Speaker 2: The acknowledgment that as a school, our structure is all

224
00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:12,480
Speaker 2: about unity, inclusiveness and you know, kind of working together

225
00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,800
Speaker 2: as a team until it comes to ata and then

226
00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,280
Speaker 2: he literally said, it's a dog eat Dog world and

227
00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,280
Speaker 2: you need to do everything you can to get ahead.

228
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,480
Speaker 1: So that's concerning, and it's almost like school culture doesn't matter,

229
00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,319
Speaker 1: and what really matters as results. And this is a

230
00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,079
Speaker 1: cynical view on my part, but I really think that

231
00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,800
Speaker 1: too many schools are using atar results as a marketing

232
00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:34,960
Speaker 1: strategy to get more people to go to their schools

233
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:36,800
Speaker 1: because every parent's worried that the child's not going to

234
00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,319
Speaker 1: do that well. To me, that's unconscionable. Moreover, I mean,

235
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,520
Speaker 1: you highlighted that with all the structure and all the

236
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,040
Speaker 1: study and all the work, kids can't have time together.

237
00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:45,400
Speaker 2: You Know.

238
00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,360
Speaker 1: What I found was when I was going through university,

239
00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:48,800
Speaker 1: the most effective way for me to study it was

240
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,080
Speaker 1: in groups. I'd sit down with my Palm cards, I'd

241
00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:52,760
Speaker 1: sit down with my study notes, and I'd say to

242
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,920
Speaker 1: three or four other people, Hey, let's go through these together,

243
00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,000
Speaker 1: and we would quiz each other. And what a difference

244
00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,440
Speaker 1: that made. It became some of the most valuable social

245
00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:01,200
Speaker 1: time that we had.

246
00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,320
Speaker 2: The challenge we have those we're dealing with year eleven

247
00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,640
Speaker 2: students as opposed to a mature age university student who

248
00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:09,680
Speaker 2: knows what he wants to do and is there for

249
00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:10,560
Speaker 2: the right reasons.

250
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,240
Speaker 1: I want to highlight two other things before we talk

251
00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:14,920
Speaker 1: about the conversation that needs to be had. And we've

252
00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,040
Speaker 1: got to do this fairly quickly because your frustrations you're

253
00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:19,480
Speaker 1: being in your bonnet has taken up a lot of

254
00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,960
Speaker 1: time for this podcast. I want to emphasize that we

255
00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,440
Speaker 1: elevate university and we should not be doing that. It's

256
00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,959
Speaker 1: just not the only way for somebody to have a

257
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,480
Speaker 1: successful life. When I ask parents, how many of them

258
00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:33,000
Speaker 1: are doing today what they thought they would do when

259
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,000
Speaker 1: they finished high school, less than one intent put up

260
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,560
Speaker 1: their hand in my workshops. Moreover, there are so many

261
00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:39,880
Speaker 1: people who do things that don't require university degrees, where

262
00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,800
Speaker 1: they make fabulous contributions to society. They make more than

263
00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,000
Speaker 1: enough to support their families and make a contribution in

264
00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,079
Speaker 1: whatever way they wish to. It's not like university is.

265
00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,000
Speaker 1: I want to use our son in law, Jared as

266
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,360
Speaker 1: an example. He was a terrible school student. He had

267
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,160
Speaker 1: no academic aspirations and really still doesn't, and after floundering

268
00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,720
Speaker 1: for a couple of years after school, he got an

269
00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,079
Speaker 1: electrical trade. He's now a fully qualified electrician and at

270
00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,439
Speaker 1: the age of what is he twenty five, twenty six

271
00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,880
Speaker 1: something like that, he and our daughter have just bought

272
00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,480
Speaker 1: their first house on the Sunshine Coast, and it's a house.

273
00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,800
Speaker 1: It's got to pull on double garage like that. It's incredible.

274
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,040
Speaker 1: And he's twenty five. I don't know too many university

275
00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,160
Speaker 1: graduates who at twenty five are buying their family a home.

276
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,320
Speaker 1: He's married, he's got a child, and he's really I mean,

277
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,040
Speaker 1: he's doing so well, and he's a trade And just

278
00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:28,720
Speaker 1: recently he and a few of his friends were at

279
00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,320
Speaker 1: our place doing a little bit of work on our home.

280
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,959
Speaker 1: And there's all these mid twenties guys and they are

281
00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,400
Speaker 1: they're living great lives, they're financially secure, they've got a trade,

282
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,560
Speaker 1: they're doing work that they really do enjoy. And I

283
00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,320
Speaker 1: just thought to myself, why is it that we elevate

284
00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:49,120
Speaker 1: university so inappropriately. It's not the only way to make

285
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:49,520
Speaker 1: a living.

286
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:51,520
Speaker 2: So I actually think we value money.

287
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:57,080
Speaker 1: Well, it's not money that we value, it's status, okay,

288
00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,199
Speaker 1: because we've got all these people who are in trades

289
00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,000
Speaker 1: or who are entrepreneur and running their own businesses. But

290
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,680
Speaker 1: we as a society value status. And you get status

291
00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,960
Speaker 1: from university that you don't get from other places, especially

292
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,320
Speaker 1: if you do a particular kind of degree versus a

293
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,240
Speaker 1: different kind of degree. I just want to hammerd this

294
00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,040
Speaker 1: point as hard as I can. You look at the

295
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,920
Speaker 1: latest stats on university dropouts in first year. As a

296
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,280
Speaker 1: former university lecturer, I've made this point many times around

297
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:24,920
Speaker 1: about eighty percent of the kids who are doing first

298
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,760
Speaker 1: year UNI probably shouldn't be there. I just don't think

299
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,560
Speaker 1: that they need to be at university. There's a twenty

300
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,160
Speaker 1: five percent dropout rate in first year university students around

301
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,720
Speaker 1: Australia at the moment. The ATAR this is fascinating. The

302
00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,360
Speaker 1: ATAR is predictive of whether or not you will or

303
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,800
Speaker 1: will not make it through first year university. The Center

304
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,280
Speaker 1: for Independent Studies released through report not too long ago,

305
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,000
Speaker 1: and in their findings they said that the ATAR is

306
00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:55,240
Speaker 1: significantly associated with completions and attrition. With each are sending

307
00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,760
Speaker 1: ATAR band completions rise and attrition falls. Low ATAR students,

308
00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,000
Speaker 1: that is, students have scored in the bottom sixty zero

309
00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,720
Speaker 1: to sixty, their dropout rates are three times that of

310
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:10,360
Speaker 1: high ATAR students between eighty and one hundred. Also, non

311
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,520
Speaker 1: ATAR based admissions are almost twice as likely as ATAR

312
00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,120
Speaker 1: based admissions to drop out of university in their first year,

313
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:21,000
Speaker 1: and completion rates fall faster for non ATAR based admissions

314
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:26,640
Speaker 1: than any other ATAR band. Nevertheless, we can't confuse causation

315
00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,040
Speaker 1: with correlation. What's really going on here, I think is

316
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,320
Speaker 1: you've got a whole bunch of Last week on the podcast,

317
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,640
Speaker 1: we talked about self control being the performance enhancing drug, right,

318
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,080
Speaker 1: and what we're really seeing here. I don't think that

319
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,080
Speaker 1: it's atars that are truly the thing that's making kids

320
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,280
Speaker 1: stick with or drop out of university. I want to

321
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,320
Speaker 1: think it is as self control. The other thing that

322
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,680
Speaker 1: i'd highlight, just to wrap this up, I guess is

323
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:52,680
Speaker 1: that kids don't need to be doing three hours of

324
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,720
Speaker 1: study a night on top of their regular school work,

325
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:56,360
Speaker 1: on top of a full school day, as well as

326
00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,360
Speaker 1: trying to balance friendships and family commitments and maybe a

327
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,320
Speaker 1: part time job at university. If you score eighty five

328
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,120
Speaker 1: or above, you get a high distinction. Right. That means

329
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,520
Speaker 1: your work is highly distinctive to get eighty five percent

330
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,400
Speaker 1: or above. In very crude terms, when I talk to

331
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:13,880
Speaker 1: our kids about this, I just say, if you want

332
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:15,320
Speaker 1: to get eighty five or above, you need to be

333
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,440
Speaker 1: highly distinctive. What is it from a workload point of view,

334
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,320
Speaker 1: that would make you highly distinctive. How much time are

335
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,080
Speaker 1: most people spending on this? So on average they might say, oh, yeah,

336
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,480
Speaker 1: it's an hour, and I'll say, okay, So would two

337
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,840
Speaker 1: hours make you highly distinctive? Would ninety minutes make you

338
00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,400
Speaker 1: highly distinctive? At what point does the work that you

339
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,480
Speaker 1: put in make you highly distinctive? Because there is a

340
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,200
Speaker 1: dose response when it comes to the work you put

341
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,840
Speaker 1: in and the result you get back. And so if

342
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,000
Speaker 1: everyone who's listening to this can get their children to

343
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,680
Speaker 1: work in a highly distinctive manner, that is to recognize

344
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:48,520
Speaker 1: that the higher the dose they put in, the greater

345
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,760
Speaker 1: the response they get back to a point, then their

346
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,160
Speaker 1: kids will end up highly distinctive. They'll get eighty five

347
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,360
Speaker 1: and above, they'll be different to everybody else. Ultimately, though,

348
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,320
Speaker 1: my take on your rant, your frustration, which is I

349
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,399
Speaker 1: think completely appropriate, and I don't mind saying this. Even

350
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,800
Speaker 1: though our kids go to the school, and maybe there

351
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:08,760
Speaker 1: are people at the school who listen, this is something

352
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:13,960
Speaker 1: that happens universally. This is not just a specific school.

353
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,000
Speaker 2: And I agree with that. I mean, each of the

354
00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,080
Speaker 2: times we've done this, it's been at a different school

355
00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,919
Speaker 2: with a different child, and the message has been ultimately

356
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:26,600
Speaker 2: the same. I recognize that with time restraints and trying

357
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,879
Speaker 2: to get through a message. Ultimately what they're saying is

358
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,439
Speaker 2: give it your best shot, do everything you can to

359
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,480
Speaker 2: get a good grade because it matters.

360
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:41,040
Speaker 1: And they're right, well, yes, if it matters, if it matters.

361
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,320
Speaker 2: What they didn't talk about was the importance of connection

362
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,800
Speaker 2: and family time and spending time with people who elevate

363
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,840
Speaker 2: you and ground you. They didn't talk about, you know,

364
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:56,600
Speaker 2: kind of mindfulness and taking time out and away from

365
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,920
Speaker 2: the books. A couple of years ago, I attended a conference.

366
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,080
Speaker 2: They had classes from eight a m. Till nine pm

367
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,400
Speaker 2: on the hour. Every hour, I had multiple options. It

368
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,320
Speaker 2: was mind blowing and I loved every minute of it.

369
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,240
Speaker 2: But by the end of each day, my brain was

370
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 2: absolutely fried and I couldn't even really tell you what

371
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,840
Speaker 2: I had listened to until I looked at my notes.

372
00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,240
Speaker 2: There was so much information. We need to give them

373
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,640
Speaker 2: an opportunity to breathe for goodness sakes.

374
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,440
Speaker 1: So here's how we do that. It's a three ye's

375
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:29,840
Speaker 1: conversation at the start of year eleven, where we say, hey,

376
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,600
Speaker 1: what's important to you? We explore right. What's important to

377
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,760
Speaker 1: you educationally? We explain. We explain by saying, the more

378
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:39,560
Speaker 1: you put in over the next two years, the better

379
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,400
Speaker 1: your results will be, and the better your results are,

380
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,800
Speaker 1: the more opportunities you'll have later in life, particularly if

381
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:48,040
Speaker 1: you have tertiary aspirations or even entrepreneurial aspirations. And then

382
00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,320
Speaker 1: we empower. We say, so based on what you want,

383
00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,199
Speaker 1: what we've explained, what is it that we're going to

384
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,840
Speaker 1: work towards, and how can we support you now? If

385
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:56,880
Speaker 1: you do that, your kids are going to do better.

386
00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,439
Speaker 1: You'll have some children who say, parents, I want nine

387
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,199
Speaker 1: to nine points nine to five. I want to be

388
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,200
Speaker 1: doing medicine or law, a dentistry or one of those

389
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:08,440
Speaker 1: other high atar subjects. And therefore what I would find

390
00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:10,359
Speaker 1: most supportive is if I can quit my job and

391
00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:11,880
Speaker 1: if you will support me over the next two years

392
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,600
Speaker 1: so that I can study fourteen hours a day. You

393
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,120
Speaker 1: will have some kids that do that, and if that's

394
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,080
Speaker 1: what they want, you have to support them. Then go

395
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,080
Speaker 1: for it. And you'll have other kids that shrug their

396
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:21,840
Speaker 1: shoulders and say, I don't really know what I want.

397
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:23,560
Speaker 1: I don't even know if I want to go to UNI,

398
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:25,879
Speaker 1: at which point you say, great, well, how do we

399
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,320
Speaker 1: help you to maximize and have value in these next

400
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,919
Speaker 1: two years so that you have optionality at the end

401
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,000
Speaker 1: of it without busting a boiler and without us all

402
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,880
Speaker 1: losing the plot. And as you work through that strategy

403
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,120
Speaker 1: in that plan, your kids are going to be okay.

404
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,120
Speaker 2: I just wish more schools would take on that approach then,

405
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,840
Speaker 2: hoping that they're putting a fire under kids and motivating

406
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 2: them by telling them that they have to do the

407
00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,560
Speaker 2: very best that they can. What does their best look like?

408
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,200
Speaker 1: You feel better now, Maybe take a few deep breaths.

409
00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,840
Speaker 1: We'll be fine. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by

410
00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:02,400
Speaker 1: just Nerlan for Bridge Media. If you'd like more information

411
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 1: about how to support your kids and make your family happier,

412
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 1: you'll find it on our Facebook and Instagram pages or

413
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,000
Speaker 1: at happy families dot com dot au.