1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:01,960 Speaker 1: Well, if you were listening to the show yesterday, you 2 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: would have heard us speaking about the situation with the 3 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: Tafe bungle. Now, it's something that's raised eyebrows and made 4 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: headlines for the last couple of weeks. But the numbers 5 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: when it comes to the apprentices that may have been impacted, 6 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 1: are not really known at this point in time. But 7 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: what we know is that it's certainly a situation that 8 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: a lot of people are quite concerned about. Now. Yesterday afternoon, 9 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: our very own Kathleen Gizola, executive producer for three sixty, 10 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: caught up with the Minister for Education and Training, Joe Hersey. 11 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 2: Take a listen to what she had to say. 12 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 3: Joe, this bungle with the TAFE students at CDU is 13 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 3: an absolute debarkle. What was your reaction when you learned 14 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 3: about what was happening there? 15 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 4: I was shocked. I was horrified. This is our only 16 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 4: public provider. The numbers, I mean shocked and horrified, first 17 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 4: of all, because we didn't find out from a CDU themselves. 18 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 4: We found out through a third party. And then to 19 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 4: hear the numbers come out. First I heard it was 20 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 4: forty apprentices, then there was another ninety on top of 21 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 4: that forty, and I've recently heard on top of that 22 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 4: there's another two hundred and thirty. So I know that 23 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 4: they are having an external audit done coming up soon, 24 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 4: and I look forward to just seeing exactly what that 25 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 4: uncovers and how this actually even happened. 26 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 3: Right, So you were only found out through someone else, 27 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 3: not through CDUs themselves, correct, And. 28 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 4: I mean that is so then I when I ran 29 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 4: into Mike Hamilton, who has resigned since, I confronted him 30 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 4: and asked him some questions, and I will say I 31 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 4: wasn't overly complimentary in my tone because this is a 32 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 4: really big girl. And as I said, they are our 33 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 4: only public provider in the territory. We've just extended our 34 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 4: home builder for another twelve months, and we need to 35 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 4: make sure that every trade going through there, no matter 36 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 4: what your trade is, whether it be carpentry, whether it 37 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 4: be electrician, whether it be plumber, whether it be a 38 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 4: hairdress or whatever, we need to make sure that they 39 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 4: are getting qualified in all of the regulations and all 40 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 4: the qualifications that they should to come out the other 41 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 4: side as a qualified apprentice, qualified trading. 42 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 3: So Minison, could we just go back to the start 43 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 3: with those figures. So initially, I mean, we did an 44 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 3: interview with Michael Hamilton Hamilton on the tenth of February, 45 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 3: that was a few days before he stood down, and 46 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 3: that was when he told us that it was forty 47 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 3: apprentices who were still going through the course. But obviously 48 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 3: in the days since then, nine ten days since then, 49 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 3: it's just continued to increase. Now and the people who 50 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 3: are currently working on jobs basically aren't properly qualified. 51 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: Is that how it looks? 52 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 4: And I'm some of the people are people that are 53 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 4: qualified already. I know that. I think it's about one 54 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 4: hundred and fifty five off the top of my head. 55 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 4: They're in schools students, so potentially they can pick up 56 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 4: those extra units of work when they go through and 57 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 4: do their trade or do another course. But those traders 58 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 4: and those businesses, what concerns me is there's businesses out 59 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 4: there that rely on their trade is being at work 60 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 4: every day. And as the next business owner, I know 61 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 4: that I would have had a schedule of work for 62 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 4: my staff, which is exactly what these businesses would have, 63 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 4: and they are now either going through theirs their staff 64 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 4: will have to either go back to CDU or a 65 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 4: remember from CDU will have to do an on site 66 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 4: visit or how that works is you know, you'd have 67 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 4: to find out from CDU how that's going to work 68 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 4: moving forward. But one thing I know is it's very 69 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 4: disruptive to a business owner. And when people are busy, 70 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 4: you know, there's houses being built, there's renovations happening right 71 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 4: across the territory. We need to make sure that these 72 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 4: people have got the qualifications to work on the job. 73 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 4: And it's extremely concerning. 74 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 3: And do you have any idea of who's going to 75 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 3: cover the cost of that, because not only will some 76 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 3: of these businesses effectively lose out on money because they're 77 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 3: losing out on staff covering the cost of getting back 78 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 3: to getting these qualifications. 79 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 4: I know that CDU have said that they will cover 80 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 4: all of the expenses in that and you know, I 81 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 4: mean potentially some of these students are in Nullen Boys, 82 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 4: some in other springs Darwin, so it will be a 83 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 4: costly exercise for them. I know also that they are 84 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 4: getting some they've had other training staff reach out to 85 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 4: them from South Australia and Queensland potentially to come over 86 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 4: and help go through and get these trades up to 87 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 4: a standard and the units that they've missed, So I 88 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 4: know that they've they've had other unis reach out to them. 89 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 2: I mean, that's good to hear, But honestly, how can 90 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: I think that. 91 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 4: A debarcle. It is an absolute debarcle. It's unacceptable in 92 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 4: this day and age. It is totally unacceptable. So I 93 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:40,559 Speaker 4: really do look forward to seeing what their audit comes 94 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 4: up with. But at the end of the day, you 95 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 4: know there's there's units of qualification and that you have 96 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 4: to do moving through your course. I know because every 97 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 4: single one of my kids is a trade and I 98 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 4: know that they've spoken about it. You know, you get 99 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 4: signed off and kicked off, whether it be on the 100 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 4: job or whether it be at trade school. I'm not 101 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 4: quite sure how this has been missed. 102 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 3: And is this an internal audit or will there be 103 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 3: someone being brought in from outside? Obviously this is a 104 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 3: question we can ask Professor Bowman when we can finally 105 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 3: catch up with him. But are you aware of the 106 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 3: processes that are going to be followed to ensure that 107 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 3: this is also not going to miss out on something. 108 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 4: I know that they are doing an internal audit at 109 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 4: the moment to find out you know, and obviously they're 110 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 4: finding out more and more of these students or whatever. 111 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 4: We've actually asked for the names of the students or 112 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 4: the department has, sorry, I ask the names of the 113 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 4: students so they can cross check as well. But I 114 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 4: also know that I think it's a twenty third of 115 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 4: this month that they have got an external order there 116 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 4: coming across from Queensland to do an audit for them 117 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:47,559 Speaker 4: as well. 118 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 3: This is seriously damaging for the institution itself overall. I mean, 119 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 3: what this is going to take a while to come 120 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 3: back from. You'd imagine, wouldn't it. 121 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 4: I would be thinking, yes, it will take a while 122 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 4: to come back from. And you know, it doesn't give 123 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 4: confidence to businesses sending their students to c to you 124 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 4: to get their training qualifications. So they have got a 125 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 4: lot of repair work they need to do. They need 126 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 4: to make sure they are working with business owners, with students, 127 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 4: with their staff and making sure that this never happens again. 128 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 3: Do you have confidence in the administration of the university 129 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,679 Speaker 3: to fix this? Look? 130 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 4: I have confidence that we will get out the other side. 131 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 4: And I only have that confidence because I will be 132 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 4: on their hammer the whole time, and I'll be making 133 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 4: sure that all these checks and balances are done, all 134 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 4: these students get the qualifications that they need to actually 135 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 4: make sure that they are compliant. As for the hierarchy 136 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 4: in CDU, the Professor Bohmen's answers to the board and 137 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 4: that is a matter for the board. 138 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 3: And so from your point of view and the Education department, 139 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 3: is there any extra levels of oversight that you can 140 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 3: put in place to ensure this, you know, gets fixed up. 141 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 4: We are working very close with it, closely with them, 142 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 4: as I said, to make sure that we walk side 143 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 4: by side with them and know exactly what they're doing 144 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 4: each step of the way to make sure that this 145 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 4: is rectified. 146 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 2: Is there fundation? 147 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 4: And I think from a department's level and an answer 148 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 4: to if I preemper your next question, no, we're not 149 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 4: giving them any more money. They get a considerable amount 150 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 4: of money from the Northern Territory government and they get 151 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 4: national money from the federal government as well. And this 152 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 4: is solely on the shoulders of CEU. 153 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 2: Can you ask for that money back? 154 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 4: Look, I think there's certain things that we can do. 155 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 4: APIs can be put in place. I think it's just 156 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 4: we are certainly you know, I think there'll be a 157 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 4: lot of conversations and a lot of things that change 158 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 4: out of this, and you know, in the coming weeks 159 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 4: I can let you know more information about that, but 160 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 4: I think there would definitely be changes happening. 161 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 2: Very interesting. Thank you so much for your time, Minister. 162 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 3: Will definitely be keen to get any extra updates, especially 163 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 3: coming out of that audit and any new developments on 164 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 3: this front. 165 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. 166 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 4: No thanks, Catherine. 167 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 1: Thanks So that was our very own Kathleen Gazola interviewing 168 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: the Minister for Education and Training Joe Hersey there and 169 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 1: she thinks it's a debarcle, I mean, pretty concerning stuff 170 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: to really learn that she's on the found out about 171 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: this situation as a result of and I'm paraphrasing here, 172 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 1: but essentially shirt fronting Michael Hamilton to try and find out. 173 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 2: What the go was. 174 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: I mean, you would have thought that, given the fact 175 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: that the university received it's a heck of a lot 176 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: of funding from the Northern Territory government, that that communication 177 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 1: would have happened, that they would have been notified in 178 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: the very early days of exactly what was going on. 179 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: Now we are going to be catching up with Charles 180 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: Dalwin University's Vice Chancellor and President, Professor Scott Bowman, on 181 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: the show on Monday morning at nine point thirty. So 182 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: we'll definitely aim to find out how exactly this is 183 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: going to be rectified, just how extensive this bungle is, 184 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: how many students have been impacted, and you know what 185 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: the steps are now to really remediate this situation, in 186 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: addition to how they're going to try to make sure 187 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: that the reputation of the university is well. I don't 188 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 1: know whether kept intact is the right word, or whether 189 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 1: that damage has already been done.