WEBVTT - Comparing the Central Park Five to Curtain 0:00:01.280 --> 0:00:01.440 Good. 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.120 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:08.520 verdicts against all three defendants. 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.160 It was absolutely shambles, to tell you the truth, just 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:12.120 absolutely really. 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:14.280 Put his blood on his clothing the day after the 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:15.120 alleged a toime. 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:17.000 On a shallow mud bank and it fits through a river. 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.160 Basically, I think most of the people are used to 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:20.640 me are good people. 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:23.320 I think a really important question we need to ask 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:26.400 is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent. 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:29.960 This is Curtain, a podcast where we pulled back the 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:32.479 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:36.280 our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:38.880 Amy Maguire and I'm. 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:43.080 Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign Prisoner Support Service. 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:47.200 And a warning this series contains the names of deceased 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:51.760 peoples and has distressing content that might upset some listeners. 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:54.840 You know, one hundred and twenty pounds, so can were. 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:58.720 And it just builds from there, It builds from there, 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:01.160 and so they get me to to a point that 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:01.800 I feel. 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:03.600 Like I'm so helpless, you know. 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:07.040 And and for me, that point came because with the 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:08.319 officers coming in and out the room. 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:09.520 It happened about three times. 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:13.800 The third time is when the officer who's actually asking 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:16.360 me the questions where he just flips tid bangs on 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:19.080 the table and he reaches for me. And at that point, 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:20.640 I feel like I'm not gonna make it off the priests. 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:24.399 I feel like I'm gonna die, right. And at that 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.440 same moment, a detective who comes in the room sitting 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.880 in the back, stops him, you know, starts yelling at him, 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:33.160 cursing at him, what they're doing, you crazy, get out 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:36.160 the room, kicks him out the room, and at that moment, 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:37.720 I feel like he saved my life. 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:40.039 Right, And he sits there, he goes, may man, you 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:40.680 a good kid. 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:42.920 I know you ain't doing this, but she got these 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:44.920 guys in the other priests and they say you did it. 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:47.720 I need your help. And I'm like, so, what the hell. 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:49.320 Am I gonna tell this dude, because I don't know, 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:52.120 I don't know the facts. I wasn't there, I didn't see. 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:54.360 But what he does is he gives me a lifeline. 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:56.440 He pulls out a picture of Kevin Richardson, he lays 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.120 it on the table and he says, you see this kid, right, here. 0:01:59.160 --> 0:01:59.640 Do you know him? 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:01.960 I say no, And he said, what is this Kevin? 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:04.360 You see the scratch on his face that came from 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:05.400 the jag of fighting them. 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:06.400 Move Now. 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:08.480 We know he going to jail, but I don't want 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:10.400 you to go to jail, so I need you to 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:12.120 help me out, give me something. 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:14.720 And then he just sits back. He just looks at 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:17.079 me and just waits. Man. And at that moment, as 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:18.560 a thought to your kid, what are you doing. 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:20.960 We're trying to figure out a lot to tell something 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:23.920 just to stop the pressure from overcoming. 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:29.520 That was the real Raymond Santana, a member of the 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:34.360 Central Park Five who were wrongly accused and forced to 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:39.400 confess to a crime they didn't commit. There you heard 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:44.359 Raymond talking about part of the interrogation process that resulted 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:48.359 in his false confession and how the police obtains that, 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:52.320 and you would have heard, just like Kevin, the police 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:54.880 went in the room, went out of the room. The 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:58.760 police used threats of various kinds, and it was different 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:02.520 for each member of the Central Park Five, and pushed 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.680 and pushed and pushed for hours, including threats of violence 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:13.280 and actual violence to extract those confessions. The Central Park 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:16.720 Five story has been made into a popular drama series 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:21.600 for Netflix that's now been seen by millions around the world. 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:27.000 In a moment, we're going to discuss that case. But 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:29.600 what you'll hear as well for the first time ever 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:34.080 on kurtin the podcast is why we've been away for 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:36.600 the last few months and why we haven't been able 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:42.200 to bring updates in Kevin Henry's case. And it's related 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:46.960 to something that's a very big similarity between the case 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:51.560 of the Central Park five and Curtin Kevin Henry. But 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:55.360 first we'll start with Amy. Have you found the reaction 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:59.680 in Australia to when they see us and the Central 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:01.440 Park five story in general? 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:06.760 It's very interesting, Martin, because we've all often said, in 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:09.520 the case of the Curtain podcast, how similar it is 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:12.320 to so many cases over in the US, and yet 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:17.600 Australian audiences still seem to cite cases over seas rather 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:19.520 than look at their own backyard. And I think we've 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:23.080 seen that in the reception to this case, because as 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:26.080 ourisoners are going to hear, there are so many similarities 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:29.720 in relation to Central Park five and also Kevin Henry's case, 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:33.400 and in fact we've also mentioned the Central Park five 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.760 case on the podcast before, and yet it seems that 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:42.120 Australians are less likely to believe particularly Aboriginal witnesses, and 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.960 they're less likely to interrogate the fact that this is 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:50.120 happening over here and it's a system that they themselves 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:53.240 are complicit in, and their silence in a sense is 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:56.520 also you know, quite a violent thing, as was shown 0:04:56.600 --> 0:05:00.279 so brilliantly in the docu series. You know, the impact 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:03.480 act of not being believed, the impact of being slandered 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:08.200 as a rapist can have on a person, particularly when 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.080 it's over years and years. So I think it's interesting 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:14.799 to see how resistant Australia still is to the fact 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:18.320 this is happening in our own backyard compared to them 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:24.640 being entertained in relation to drama series like this one. 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:27.919 But Martin, you know this case in depth. What was 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:31.520 your sort of taking or response to it when you 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:32.440 actually saw it. 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:39.320 I think it was a very important and really good 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:43.440 portrayal of what happened. There's obviously been a number of 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:48.080 documentaries that have been run and made, including Ken and 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:51.719 Sarah Burns is very good documentary. I think what this 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:56.640 series shows though, was the very human side of a 0:05:56.680 --> 0:06:01.640 case like these the suffering not only of the wrongly 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:05.960 accused and the young boys, but their families, their friends, 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.599 their communities, and what it does and the way it 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:14.320 tears people apart. I also think the fact that you 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:18.760 see the way they're not believed and the way they 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:22.040 battle with the fact that they're accused of something they 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:26.400 clearly didn't do. And part of the reaction in Australia, 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:30.120 as you mentioned, is so often, as we see now, 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:35.520 that the person isn't believed, and that Aboriginal witnesses and 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:40.320 Aboriginal people in particular aren't believed. And that's not only 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:43.760 by the police but by the broader community and as 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:46.680 we've seen by the media who refuse to make the 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:52.839 links between this huge, high profile case that's become a 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:59.280 Netflix series and the cases like Kevins that are occurring 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:03.680 right now. And it's part of the damage that that 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:08.800 causes the not believing people, the refusal to see the truth. 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:12.480 And we see that with the Central Park five, that 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:16.720 two of the men end up leaving New York, the 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:20.120 struggles they go through when they're released and being accepted 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:25.080 back into the community, that even once your innocence is proven, 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:28.640 that you're still not fully believed by people and that 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:34.600 that continues to tarnish who you are. But obviously one 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:38.560 of the most interesting things is the links to Curtain 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:42.120 and the similarities, and that's something that we're going to 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:46.840 explore today. I mean, what was the first I guess 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:49.800 similarity to Kevin's case that jumped out to you. 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:56.080 The first was definitely the timeline. So the miniseries shows 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:01.440 the internal sort of discussions that were happening between the 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:04.600 police and even the prosecutor at the time around the timeline, 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:08.440 and there were so many inconsistencies in the timeline around 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:12.640 Central Park and this really horrendous rape that had just occurred, 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:15.560 and it showed that these five boys who had been 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.680 picked up were nowhere near in the vicinity, and so 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:20.960 what had to happen was they had to move around 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:23.480 events and they had to play with the timeline to 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:26.280 even make it made it fit. And as I watched that, 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:30.440 I immediately thought of Curdin, because we've shown again that 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:32.960 there is a real problem with the timeline of the 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:36.000 night that Curdin was alleged to have committed this crime. 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.640 In fact, we've shown that he had an alibi at 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:42.439 the time, he had a very small window of opportunity 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:44.360 in which he could have done this, and in fact, 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:48.120 there was no witnesses at all to it. And we've 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:50.640 shown also the problems with the tides and the positions 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.360 of the body. So to me, that was really amazing 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:55.920 to look at it, particularly looking at the police and 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:58.520 how quickly they made up their minds, or at least 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:03.880 in the miniseries, how determined they were once they'd got 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:06.400 the kids they wanted to tire this with. It was 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:07.400 never about the truth. 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:08.239 It was about. 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:11.480 Finding people they were going to blame this crime on 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:14.120 in order to get a conviction. So it automatically became 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:16.600 these are the five ones we've got, and so we're 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:18.440 going to just build a case against them rather than 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:20.760 actually look at the truth. And I think we've shown 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:23.640 that with Kevin's case that once they extracted a confession, 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:27.320 which is another similarity that we'll go into, they just 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:30.000 closed all other avenues. So there was never you know, 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:33.199 the really sad thing is, you know, the actual perpetrator 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:37.000 went on to commit other really horrendous crimes and so 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:41.120 that actually affected the safety of women in New York anyway. 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:47.040 So it really showed just how I guess damaging those 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:51.520 assumptions were, and they were obviously based on race as well. 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:54.920 So I think that was the first similarity that sort 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:57.120 of got me up and thinking, God almighty, you know 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.880 this happened around a similar time as well to Kevin, 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:02.440 only a couple of years before, and it was happening 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:04.920 over in Australia. And yet you know, no one's ever 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:08.280 looked at this case in depth until we were actually 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:11.880 able to do this podcast. Martin, what did you think 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:15.400 of that or what were your first I know you've 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:17.520 known this case before, but when you were watching it, 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:19.600 what sort of jumped out to you in relation to 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:20.400 Curtain's case. 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:24.040 Well, I think the thing that I always look at 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:27.839 is the police behavior, because the police are the ones 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:30.800 that are going to determine very quickly whether the case 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:34.400 is solved or in a case like Kevin or the 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:38.000 Central Park five, whether they not only get the wrong people, 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:45.680 but force confession and tain evidence to his timelines and 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:49.440 not only result in accusing and getting a conviction of 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:54.640 the wrong person, but ensure that the real perpetrator goes free. 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.160 And so I think what was most interesting for me 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:03.040 watching this was how quick the police make those deliberate 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:08.160 errors and deliberate tactics to accuse the wrong people. And 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:12.480 we know that in Kevin's case they did that immediately, 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:17.080 and they did that the same with the Central Park five. 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:22.479 The targeting of young boys, just grabbing anyone a willingness 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:26.200 to Just as the police targeted anybody who was at 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:32.400 Tanuba House that night, the police targeted anybody who was 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:36.640 in Central Park that night who fit the description they 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:40.280 were after, which was someone who was black. That's all 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:44.640 they were interested in. And as we know, a lawyer 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.880 approached the police in Kevin's case and told them they 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:53.360 had not only the wrong person, but told them they 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:57.160 knew who'd done it. And the police response was, we've 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:00.840 got a black for a plaque. And to me, that 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:04.280 is the similarity in the Central Park five. Obviously the 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:09.920 victim wasn't black, but the target of their investigation, before 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:14.400 they knew anything about the crime, was to arrest young 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.640 black men, and that happened with Kevin, and it happened 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:21.040 with the Central Park five, and from there everything else 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:23.000 spirals out of control. 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:26.640 And Martin, when you talk about that about another potential suspect, 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:30.280 there was also talk of white vigilantes who would often 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:33.920 turn up to Tanuba House, and the detectives on trial 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:37.479 in Kevin's case actually were questioned about that under cross examination, 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.400 and they admitted that they'd never gone down that line 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:43.319 of investigation or even thought thought to do it. They 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:45.720 just brushed it off as if it was nothing. So 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.640 it shows just how narrow their focus was, and their 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:54.600 focus was in relation to the aboriginality of the alleged perpetrator. 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.960 They never sought to look at whether there were non 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:00.520 Indigenous people around that night who would actually been shown 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:02.960 to be preying on young Aboriginal girls at the time. 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:08.840 Yeah, that's right, and I think not only had these 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:14.720 white men been around, they'd made very specific threats that 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:18.960 they were going to rape Aboriginal women, and they'd used 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:24.960 racist and derogatory language towards Aboriginal women. They'd come many 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:30.240 times to the camp and threatened violence. They'd had to 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:35.079 be chased away at certain points, and this was put 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:39.600 not only to the police on the stand, but it 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:43.240 had been raised in a number of the witness statements 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:47.920 by Aboriginal people telling the police that this had gone 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:52.800 on and that these white vigilantes had actually been there 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:57.760 at Tanuba House making threats of rape the night before 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:03.600 Linda was killed, and yet on the stand, the lead 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:08.240 investigator admitted he made not a single effort to follow 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:12.640 up on that, didn't even attempt to find out the 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:17.400 names of these people, made no effort whatsoever. And we 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:23.040 also know that there was other perpetrators or potential perpetrators' 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:28.240 names raised in witness statements, and the same lead investigator 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:31.280 admitted on the stand that he made no attempt to 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:36.760 even question these individuals. He knew their names directly and 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:40.600 did not even approach them. Now, I think that's clear 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.920 in both Kevin's case and the Central Park five that 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:48.600 immediately they'd made up their mind and it didn't matter 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:52.520 what evidence came forward, they weren't to change it. 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:56.760 Martin, what else did you see when you were watching 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:00.120 the miniseries, as in similarities to Kevin's. 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:04.080 Case, very key issues that you see in the Central 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:08.440 Park five drama series is the way that the boys 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:13.480 are isolated. We see that some of them had their 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:18.720 parents there, some didn't. In Raymond's case, he had his 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:23.120 grandmother there who was then nushed out of the room. So, 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:27.800 like all of the witnesses in Kevin's case, they didn't 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:34.000 have legal help they didn't have anyone there to support them, 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.760 and they're under a huge amount of stress because they're 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:42.880 being alleged to commit a crime that they know nothing about. 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:46.440 This is one of the most stressful situations someone can 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:49.480 be put in, that they are being accused of a 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:54.320 violent and serious crime that carries a very long prison sentence, 0:15:55.000 --> 0:16:00.080 and yet they have no information to give the police, 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:05.640 and this puts people in a very difficult situation. Now, 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:09.360 the police can either choose to believe that or they 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:11.440 can force the issue. And this is where the Reed 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:16.120 technique that we've discussed before comes into play. Now, whether 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:20.200 the individual officers know what the Reed technique is or not, 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.960 and we see in the Central Park five drama series 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:27.360 that one of the officers denies knowing what it is. 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:33.280 Offices around them have been trained in the technique and 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:36.920 this is what they're taught and how they learn to interrogate. 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.120 And so rather than see that they have a witness 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:42.160 in front of them that cannot answer for any of 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:47.440 their questions, they start to force the issue and they 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:51.400 start to ramp up the pressure and make accusations, and 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:53.960 when that doesn't work, they go to one of the 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:57.720 techniques that's used in reed, which is to claim that 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:01.680 other individuals who were there, so other members of the 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:07.159 Central Park five have made claims against the person they're interviewing, 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:10.800 and we saw that exactly the same in Kevin's case, 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.440 that when they couldn't get answers out of people, when 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.800 no one would confess because the people they were interviewing, 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:22.879 including Kevin, had not committed the crime, they started to 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:27.119 allege that other people had said they had. And we 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:31.439 saw in particular the effect that that had, particularly on 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:39.480 the youngest member, Tron, but also Cory Wise, because he'd 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.640 only been asked to come down to be with his 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:49.880 friend Yusef, and so his level of understanding of this 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:54.320 was less than anyone else's. We also know the other 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:57.920 issues that Corey was dealing with that will get into 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:02.159 and so then it just becomes a matter of grinding 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:05.640 the person down, and whether it's through threats of violence 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:11.320 has occurred in Kevin's case, or both the violence that 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.719 was used against Corey, but also the sheer amount of 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:19.320 time the young boys were interrogated for it becomes quite 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:23.440 easy to break a person down with these threats over 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:25.120 hours and hours on end. 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:27.920 One of the things that really stood out to me Martin, 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.960 particularly with Corey, but in all of the boys' cases, 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:34.680 they were obviously so confused, in a state of confusion. 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.080 I mean, I thought it was really interesting how she 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:40.440 started it with from really from their perspectives, they had 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:42.879 no idea that a crime had even really taken place, 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:46.199 and so just this confusion about what was happening. But 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:49.760 particularly in relation to Corey wise, it was interesting how 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:51.919 it was similar to Brendan Ducie and that he just 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:55.000 thought he could say whatever and he'd go home. And 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:57.119 he thought, oh, well, if I give them what they want, 0:18:57.560 --> 0:18:59.080 we can go home now. I'll be able to go 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:03.239 home understanding or no comprehension that this is actually going 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:06.040 to affect his life. And I think that was very 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:09.119 similar to Kevin, because I think Kevin just went in 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:11.600 there thinking he was going to give a statement the 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:17.000 day that he gave his alleged confession, and he didn't 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:20.280 seem to realize at the time what he was going 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:23.200 to be charged with, what the police were angling for. 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:27.080 Did you get that sense as well, or did you 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:29.480 have any feeling or thoughts around that. 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:35.880 Yeah, look, I think that's absolutely right that in all 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:40.240 these situations and It's something that studies have shown across 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:46.359 thousands of cases that young people, people who have experienced 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:51.920 trauma in their lives, people with learning difficulties, people from 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:57.160 black communities who have been victimized so often by the police, 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:03.000 do often give statements believing that if they just cooperate, 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:08.040 if they just say what the policemen say they need 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:13.399 to say. It's basically the yes model that if they 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:16.240 be polite and do what they're told, they'll get to 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:20.720 go home. And I think in Brendan's case, in Corey's case, 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:25.200 in Cavin's case, all three knew nothing of what they 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.359 were being accused of, because, as we know, all three 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:33.560 are innocent, and they all cooperated under the false assumption 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:37.320 that they would be able to go home. And what 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:42.440 all three also have in the common is that none 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:46.920 of them were afforded a lawyer. Now there's different reasons 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:50.720 as to why there was no lawyer present in each case, 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:55.919 but any time someone is being accused of murder, there 0:20:55.960 --> 0:21:00.239 should be a lawyer present. Now we know that in 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:04.720 all three cases, basically the similarity is that all three 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:08.320 were tricked into not having a lawyer there or threatened 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:12.600 that a lawyer shouldn't be present, and the lawyer plays 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:16.560 the role of not only the legal advocate understanding what 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:21.320 will happen if you confess to something you know nothing about, 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:24.560 that you clearly didn't do. But that lawyer is not 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:29.600 under the stress that that person like Kevan or Brendan 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:33.560 or Cory is under. They can be the calming influence. 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:36.960 They can also stand up to the police and tell 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:40.720 them to stop and speak to their client and explain 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:43.639 very clearly that not only do you not have to 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:46.680 say anything, but that what you are saying because you're 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:50.480 being forced to say it by the police, knowing yourself 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:52.720 that it's not true, but that you're just trying to 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:56.800 get home, that you won't go home, you'll go to 0:21:56.880 --> 0:22:00.119 jail and potentially for the rest of your life. That 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:05.280 is absolutely why the police made sure lawyers weren't present. 0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:11.560 If the police knew very confidently that all three had 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:15.640 committed these crimes, they would have no problem with having 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:19.560 a lawyer present as his standard practice and as he's required. 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.560 If they had the evidence that all three had committed 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:27.960 these crimes, they wouldn't have needed a statement from them 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:31.720 in the first place. All three could have maintained their silence, 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:34.840 and the police would have had enough evidence to convict 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:38.320 them if they'd actually done the crime. But as we know, 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:43.600 all three didn't commit these crimes, and all the police 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:46.760 could do to get a conviction was to force a 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:50.040 false confession. And I think that's the most disturbing and 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:56.000 disgusting in part, is that in all three cases we 0:22:56.119 --> 0:23:01.000 have a female victim. In all three cases, that female 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:05.399 victim and her family deserve justice, and yet from the 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:09.960 very start, the police in all three cases in Manitouac 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:14.000 County in New York and in Rockhampton and Queensland had 0:23:14.160 --> 0:23:17.600 no concern about getting justice for the victim and their family. 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:21.480 They knew they had the wrong people, and yet they 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:25.879 were determined to get a conviction otherwise. And this is 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:28.560 something that people are going to have to grapple with. 0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:32.119 This is the issue I think that goes to the 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:36.080 heart of why the Australian media don't cover these cases, 0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:40.120 probably is a refusal to believe the police will act 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:41.200 in this manner. 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:45.720 Now madin the very I mean, the most hurrowing episode 0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:48.119 really for me was the last one where it actually 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:51.800 showed what had happened to Corey Wise, who was placed 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:54.959 in the adult jail and was just subjected to torture 0:23:55.040 --> 0:23:59.800 and abuse continually. And I guess the reason it's about 0:23:59.800 --> 0:24:02.880 to me he was particularly when he came up for parole, 0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:06.320 because I had so many similarities to Kevin's case and 0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:08.880 where we currently stand now, we're just going to play 0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:11.639 a quick clip of the actor who plays Corey Wise. 0:24:14.200 --> 0:24:15.119 Thank you for seeing me. 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:20.320 I've never been in trouble in my whole life ever, 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:24.359 and when I get out, I don't plan on starting 0:24:24.400 --> 0:24:24.879 no trouble. 0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:25.800 Good. 0:24:26.480 --> 0:24:30.600 I'm a good person and I know our feelings for 0:24:30.640 --> 0:24:32.000 anybody or the situation. 0:24:32.119 --> 0:24:33.000 I just won't go home. 0:24:34.880 --> 0:24:37.879