1 00:00:10,204 --> 00:00:13,484 Speaker 1: My Heart podcasts here, more Gold one on one point 2 00:00:13,524 --> 00:00:15,204 Speaker 1: seven podcasts. 3 00:00:14,604 --> 00:00:17,724 Speaker 2: Playlists and listen live on the Free iHeart app. 4 00:00:18,364 --> 00:00:22,483 Speaker 1: New Jersey and Amanda jam Nations the new docu series 5 00:00:22,524 --> 00:00:24,444 Speaker 1: on Netflix. I watched it last night. It's got everyone 6 00:00:24,484 --> 00:00:27,084 Speaker 1: in the office talking. It's called American Man Hunt, the 7 00:00:27,164 --> 00:00:29,884 Speaker 1: Sama Bin Laden. It follows, of course, the hunt for 8 00:00:29,884 --> 00:00:33,164 Speaker 1: Bin Laden following the nine to eleven attacks. Amongst those 9 00:00:33,204 --> 00:00:37,284 Speaker 1: featured is Tracy Walder, a former CIA agent who was 10 00:00:37,324 --> 00:00:39,404 Speaker 1: in the space of a year, went from being a 11 00:00:39,524 --> 00:00:43,324 Speaker 1: university student to joining the hunt for Sama bin Laden. 12 00:00:43,404 --> 00:00:44,324 Speaker 1: Quite extraordinary. 13 00:00:44,484 --> 00:00:48,403 Speaker 3: Tracy, Hello, Hi, thank you all so much for having me. 14 00:00:49,004 --> 00:00:50,284 Speaker 2: How do you get to that? 15 00:00:50,484 --> 00:00:52,123 Speaker 1: How do you go from being a UNI student one 16 00:00:52,204 --> 00:00:54,684 Speaker 1: year to being that the next? 17 00:00:56,164 --> 00:00:57,644 Speaker 3: I mean, it's a long story, but I'll shorten it 18 00:00:57,764 --> 00:01:01,284 Speaker 3: up obviously for radio. But you know, it wasn't something 19 00:01:01,284 --> 00:01:02,404 Speaker 3: that I had set out to be. I wanted to 20 00:01:02,444 --> 00:01:04,644 Speaker 3: be a high school history teacher. This is we have 21 00:01:04,684 --> 00:01:07,003 Speaker 3: to remember the world was very different rat pre nine 22 00:01:07,003 --> 00:01:10,684 Speaker 3: to eleven. Terrorism wasn't of mine in America. It just 23 00:01:10,764 --> 00:01:14,203 Speaker 3: wasn't a thing. And I watched Bin Laden's interview in 24 00:01:14,244 --> 00:01:17,324 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven, and that's when he issued his declaration 25 00:01:17,444 --> 00:01:20,124 Speaker 3: of war against the United States, and I wanted to 26 00:01:20,164 --> 00:01:22,923 Speaker 3: find out more about who this person was, what he 27 00:01:23,044 --> 00:01:26,764 Speaker 3: was about. So I started taking classes international affairs, those 28 00:01:26,844 --> 00:01:28,924 Speaker 3: kinds of things. But I didn't know that you could 29 00:01:28,964 --> 00:01:32,044 Speaker 3: work in the CIA and work counter terrorism there. I 30 00:01:32,084 --> 00:01:35,324 Speaker 3: went to a career fair at my university spring of 31 00:01:35,364 --> 00:01:38,684 Speaker 3: my junior year, saw that there was a table said CIA, 32 00:01:38,884 --> 00:01:41,764 Speaker 3: and I gave them my resume, really not expecting any 33 00:01:41,844 --> 00:01:46,844 Speaker 3: call whatsoever, and they called. I was cleared by Gosh 34 00:01:46,884 --> 00:01:50,364 Speaker 3: November December of my senior year, contingent upon my graduating 35 00:01:50,364 --> 00:01:54,524 Speaker 3: college obviously. I graduated in May of two thousand and 36 00:01:55,044 --> 00:01:56,204 Speaker 3: started two weeks later. 37 00:01:56,604 --> 00:01:59,844 Speaker 1: Wow, right into the drop zone of when the world changed. 38 00:02:00,124 --> 00:02:02,244 Speaker 1: It's quite extraordinary because we've seen the story play out 39 00:02:02,284 --> 00:02:03,844 Speaker 1: a number of times, but to see it from an 40 00:02:03,844 --> 00:02:06,604 Speaker 1: intelligence point of view was so interesting. That were the 41 00:02:06,604 --> 00:02:09,163 Speaker 1: first boots on the ground in Afghanistan, and in a 42 00:02:09,204 --> 00:02:13,164 Speaker 1: why the intelligence community took the hat with Congress, with 43 00:02:13,244 --> 00:02:15,804 Speaker 1: the public for not finding bin Laden, but there was 44 00:02:15,844 --> 00:02:16,923 Speaker 1: so much more to it. 45 00:02:19,084 --> 00:02:22,844 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was very frustrating. It was frustrating obviously being 46 00:02:22,844 --> 00:02:25,524 Speaker 3: at the agency at that time. I think I talk 47 00:02:25,564 --> 00:02:27,603 Speaker 3: a little bit in the documentary that there weren't that many. 48 00:02:27,844 --> 00:02:30,284 Speaker 3: There wasn't a lot of time to have feelings about things, right, 49 00:02:30,284 --> 00:02:33,804 Speaker 3: no one really cared what we thought. But obviously, I 50 00:02:33,844 --> 00:02:37,163 Speaker 3: think looking back, we were all very deeply affected by 51 00:02:37,163 --> 00:02:39,684 Speaker 3: the fact that we were essentially blamed right for missing 52 00:02:40,244 --> 00:02:43,564 Speaker 3: September eleventh. The nine to eleven Commission blamed us for that, 53 00:02:43,644 --> 00:02:46,284 Speaker 3: and I think we thought, specifically at that moment in 54 00:02:46,324 --> 00:02:50,883 Speaker 3: Tora Bora, really that we could in a way avenge 55 00:02:50,923 --> 00:02:54,004 Speaker 3: the deaths of these individuals and kind of shirk some 56 00:02:54,124 --> 00:02:57,484 Speaker 3: of that blame that we had gotten and changed the 57 00:02:57,564 --> 00:03:00,244 Speaker 3: narrative just a little bit. So it was really frustrating, 58 00:03:00,284 --> 00:03:04,764 Speaker 3: obviously being on duty that night and losing Bin Laden essentially, 59 00:03:04,764 --> 00:03:07,284 Speaker 3: and that's when he made his journey into Pakistan. 60 00:03:06,844 --> 00:03:09,763 Speaker 1: Because Toura Bora was when, you know, about a month 61 00:03:09,803 --> 00:03:13,004 Speaker 1: after September eleven, you knew he was in the Afghanistan mountains. 62 00:03:13,043 --> 00:03:15,124 Speaker 1: You said, we can get him. You wanted the military 63 00:03:15,163 --> 00:03:16,883 Speaker 1: to come in, and you didn't get the backup. 64 00:03:18,524 --> 00:03:20,844 Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's human nature, right, if you're 65 00:03:20,884 --> 00:03:24,523 Speaker 3: bombed from above, you're going to run away if you survive, right, 66 00:03:24,524 --> 00:03:27,164 Speaker 3: we all want to live and so I think we 67 00:03:27,244 --> 00:03:29,564 Speaker 3: knew that, right. We knew that that would essentially happen. 68 00:03:29,564 --> 00:03:33,043 Speaker 3: We knew we wouldn't kill every single terrorist that was there, 69 00:03:33,124 --> 00:03:36,484 Speaker 3: and unfortunately, that's exactly what happened. 70 00:03:37,044 --> 00:03:39,044 Speaker 2: And when you look at it, nineteen ninety seven, that's 71 00:03:39,044 --> 00:03:42,004 Speaker 2: when you discovered Asama bin laden Laden. That was before 72 00:03:42,004 --> 00:03:44,084 Speaker 2: any of us knew who he was. So you must 73 00:03:44,084 --> 00:03:48,044 Speaker 2: have been increasingly frustrated when September eleven actually had happened 74 00:03:48,204 --> 00:03:50,644 Speaker 2: and you thought, hang on, knew this. I know this guy, 75 00:03:50,724 --> 00:03:52,444 Speaker 2: I know what his intentions are. 76 00:03:54,524 --> 00:03:57,364 Speaker 3: I don't know that I necessarily knew what he would do, right, 77 00:03:57,404 --> 00:04:00,844 Speaker 3: Like I have lived through that First World Trade Center 78 00:04:00,884 --> 00:04:03,684 Speaker 3: bombing that we had in nineteen ninety three from the 79 00:04:03,724 --> 00:04:06,684 Speaker 3: blind Shake, and then we also were in the kind 80 00:04:06,684 --> 00:04:12,284 Speaker 3: of don of terrorism, homegrown terrorism. We had the Oklahoma 81 00:04:12,324 --> 00:04:14,844 Speaker 3: City bombing that had happened just two years after that, 82 00:04:14,964 --> 00:04:17,764 Speaker 3: And so now we have this person who is declaring 83 00:04:17,803 --> 00:04:21,604 Speaker 3: war on us, and I think, yes, it was very frustrating, 84 00:04:21,604 --> 00:04:24,044 Speaker 3: particularly once I got to the agency, to realize that 85 00:04:24,124 --> 00:04:26,764 Speaker 3: actually that's not where the focus was. So at the time, 86 00:04:27,124 --> 00:04:30,404 Speaker 3: the focus was very much on Central and South America. 87 00:04:30,444 --> 00:04:32,803 Speaker 3: There was like a lot of coudetars and counter narcotics 88 00:04:32,844 --> 00:04:37,044 Speaker 3: issues going on there as well as Russia, because Russia's 89 00:04:37,124 --> 00:04:38,924 Speaker 3: kind of always been on our radar. It was a 90 00:04:39,004 --> 00:04:41,804 Speaker 3: very small group that, in all honesty, didn't get a 91 00:04:41,844 --> 00:04:42,724 Speaker 3: whole lot of attention. 92 00:04:43,924 --> 00:04:45,684 Speaker 1: What was the you say you weren't you didn't have 93 00:04:45,724 --> 00:04:49,124 Speaker 1: time for emotion. But in this documentary, that final episode 94 00:04:49,124 --> 00:04:52,724 Speaker 1: in particular is so hot, so extraordinary to watch. When 95 00:04:52,724 --> 00:04:56,524 Speaker 1: you captured Osama bin Laden, How did that feel for you? 96 00:04:57,844 --> 00:05:01,444 Speaker 3: So I want to be completely transparent, Amanda Jersey. I 97 00:05:01,564 --> 00:05:03,924 Speaker 3: have not watched it, and I want to. I want 98 00:05:03,924 --> 00:05:08,724 Speaker 3: to explain why I have a lot of PTSD to diagnose, 99 00:05:10,084 --> 00:05:12,804 Speaker 3: you know, mental health issues surrounding September eleventh. I served 100 00:05:12,804 --> 00:05:15,324 Speaker 3: to tours in Afghanistan. You know, there's a lot that 101 00:05:15,364 --> 00:05:18,164 Speaker 3: goes around that, and so it's difficult for me to 102 00:05:18,164 --> 00:05:20,964 Speaker 3: watch it. So I just want to beat me honest 103 00:05:21,004 --> 00:05:25,724 Speaker 3: and open about that. But I do think that it 104 00:05:25,844 --> 00:05:29,084 Speaker 3: felt good to get him, and this might surprise listeners. 105 00:05:29,484 --> 00:05:32,644 Speaker 3: I didn't necessarily feel relieved, and let me explain why. 106 00:05:32,924 --> 00:05:36,924 Speaker 3: Because you can't kill an idea. And I talk about 107 00:05:36,924 --> 00:05:38,724 Speaker 3: this in the book that I wrote that it's like 108 00:05:38,844 --> 00:05:41,804 Speaker 3: starfish right, you cut off, you know, one of the 109 00:05:42,084 --> 00:05:44,964 Speaker 3: arms of the star, and it grows back over time. 110 00:05:45,364 --> 00:05:47,404 Speaker 3: And what I was concerned about was that we got 111 00:05:47,444 --> 00:05:52,363 Speaker 3: in laden. Therefore, people, the government money would stop caring 112 00:05:53,004 --> 00:05:56,004 Speaker 3: about terrorism, and it would grow and fester again, and 113 00:05:56,044 --> 00:05:58,484 Speaker 3: then there would be another attack. So that was actually 114 00:05:58,804 --> 00:06:02,964 Speaker 3: my concern. I was obviously happy he wasn't that influential 115 00:06:03,004 --> 00:06:05,884 Speaker 3: anymore at that point because he was in such a 116 00:06:05,924 --> 00:06:10,924 Speaker 3: sheltered state by then. But at this time I was concerned, Yeah, and. 117 00:06:10,884 --> 00:06:14,004 Speaker 2: How do you feel now with terrorism? Can we get 118 00:06:14,044 --> 00:06:15,684 Speaker 2: past it? Because to me, it just seems to be 119 00:06:15,684 --> 00:06:18,444 Speaker 2: an ideology. If you go to the Middle East, it's 120 00:06:18,484 --> 00:06:23,284 Speaker 2: like Muslim versus Christian. Yeah, so you've got all these 121 00:06:23,284 --> 00:06:28,084 Speaker 2: religious groups subsets, and you've got an archaic religion versus 122 00:06:28,164 --> 00:06:34,004 Speaker 2: another archaic religion. How do you get past that? 123 00:06:32,804 --> 00:06:36,044 Speaker 3: That's I mean, that is a million dollar question. 124 00:06:36,124 --> 00:06:41,324 Speaker 4: If I could solve that, it would really be if 125 00:06:41,364 --> 00:06:43,404 Speaker 4: you could wrap that up right now, if you wrapped 126 00:06:43,444 --> 00:06:46,244 Speaker 4: up Middle East peace, we would be out of here. 127 00:06:46,764 --> 00:06:49,644 Speaker 2: We could play a nickelback and we'd be happy. But 128 00:06:49,684 --> 00:06:51,164 Speaker 2: it's not going to happen, and it's not going to 129 00:06:51,204 --> 00:06:57,484 Speaker 2: happen now. But Tracy. It's a great Netflix series, American Manhunt, Anyone, 130 00:06:58,284 --> 00:07:01,884 Speaker 2: Tracy Wallace, thank you for joining us, Thank you for 131 00:07:01,884 --> 00:07:02,364 Speaker 2: having me.